In Art Of Coaching Podcast, Podcasts

Imagine approaching a vehicle or entering a building, not knowing if the people inside wanted to do you harm.  The ability to maintain composure in high risk situations like this can be the difference between going home to your family or being rushed to the hospital.

That statement isn’t just hyperbole, it’s woven into Tyson Shumway’s daily life.  Tyson has worn a number of hats along with his body armor over his 16 year career as a police officer.  He began his career on the Southside of Los Angeles before transitioning to SWAT, where he was a team member for 7 years.  In addition, he has also taught cadets at the police academy and is currently on patrol in Sacramento.  His passion for teaching has carried over to his off-duty time where he conducts firearms training for Fieldcraft Survival and is a Facilitator with Art of Coaching.  

In today’s episode, we:

  • Discuss how a law enforcement professional approaches de-escalating conflict
  • Learn how to manage our emotions in tense situations
  • Weigh the costs of engaging in office politics
  • Explore the benefits of leveraging our inner anti-hero

Referenced Resources:

One recurring frustration from today’s episode was the lack of opportunities to practice communication skills.  On June 1st – 2nd we’re hosting our Speaker School in Phoenix, AZ, where you can find your voice and refine your message in a judgment-free environment using our research backed evaluation, video analysis, and feedback from your fellow attendees.  We’ll also cover topics on slide design, how to present more effectively, and how to be more articulate.  This is for everyone ranging from those who need more confidence and are battling social anxiety, to someone who is getting paid to speak in front of large numbers.  We keep the number of participants to 10 or less to make sure you get enough reps. Sign ups are open now and you can take advantage of Early Bird Special and save up to $200!  Hurry, offer expires April 1st!

If you enjoyed this episode and are a new listener, we are dying to know you and be a key resource for you achieving your goals.  Shoot us an email at and let us know how we can help.  Make sure you sign up for our Newsletter and stay up to date on all of our Courses and Live Events

Referenced Material:

E240: The 4 Styles Of Communication

E282: Understanding Neurodiversity: Strategies For Clear Communication And Collaborative Leadership

Today’s show is brought to you by one of our oldest partners, Momentous.  When it comes to your health, the best thing you can do is control the controllables. And that is why we are proud to partner with companies like Momentous, who remain focused on providing and developing products that will keep your body running at its best. If you’re looking for a way to boost your protein intake, elevate your workouts, or supplement your diet, use code: BRETT15 for 15% off your order.


Brett Bartholomew  0:00  

Hey everyone, its Brett here. Quick note just began. Some of you have been listening to the podcast for a while. And I realize you may not know what we do at art of coaching. The podcast is just one small extension. We are focused on leadership development. And really, we sit at the crux of all things leadership, entrepreneurship, and relationships. So if you’re somebody that wants to improve how you communicate, so that your business can run more smoothly, or maybe it makes your marketing better, or you want to do it, because you want to be able to better relate to your spouse or your kids, we have something for you. If you’re somebody that wants to improve your staff development, and maybe they need to work on conflict resolution, negotiation, problem solving under pressure, we have programs for that. 


We do things that are alive, and virtual, so that you can have access to the content you need. When it matters most. Please check us out. Go to we’ve helped people in more than 30 different professions solve some of their biggest problems, because all things human and social are where those problems reside. Learn how to be more confident when you speak, learn how to get your point across more clearly. Learn how to navigate the power dynamics inherent to life and work. Again, that’s And if you have specific questions, you can email us at For our live events, we have group discount student discounts, first responder discounts. We do in services all over the world, and we have a dedicated team that can help you no matter what your problem is, we’d be honored to serve you. Last time, that’s


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Welcome to the Art of coaching Podcast. I’m Brett Bartholomew, and at a young age poor communication nearly cost me my life. Now, I help others navigate the gray area of social interaction, power dynamics and communication so they can become more adaptable leaders regardless of their profession, age or situation. This podcast is for everybody who is fascinated with solving people problems. So if you’re in the no nonsense type who appreciates frank conversations, advice you can put to use immediately and learning how others navigate the messy realities of leadership. You’re in the right place. I’m glad that you’re joining us. Let’s dive in.


Nice to have you with me for another episode. Today we have Tyson Shumway. Joining us Tyson spent 16 years as a member of the law enforcement community. He spent seven years working as a part of SWAT and he teaches defensive tactics and serves as a firearm instructor to boot. He’s a husband and a father of four and we touch on a lot of topics that can apply to every aspect of your life today. Specifically how to deescalate conflict, how to manage our emotions, when we’re in tense situations. How you should behave around police officers, hopefully you don’t find yourself in that circumstance much. But ultimately because of the nature of his job being so high risk and such high stakes, we took a lot of things and extracted them so whether you’re teaching in a boardroom class last room or anywhere in between, you can apply these tactics today. So turn your volume up, listen in and here is Tyson Shumway


welcome back to another episode of The Art of coaching Podcast. I’m here with Tyson Shumway Tyson welcome. I’d say to my house you’re sitting across from me.


Tyson Shumway  5:18  

I am. Thanks for having me.


Brett Bartholomew  5:19  

My pleasure. It’s very rare. We get to do a live interview. I mean, usually, I get Jack Nicholson out here occasionally. Matthew McConaughey. But today, we got use. It’s a real treat. 


Tyson Shumway  5:29  

Yeah, glad to be sitting in the same seat that they’ve sat it. 


Brett Bartholomew  5:31  

Yeah, Jack Nicholson was actually right there. And it was odd because when I was interviewing him, he wouldn’t quit eating a steak. He came with a T bone. But when Jack Nicholson starts doing things like that, you don’t question it? 


Tyson Shumway  5:43  

Yeah, I thought you were providing the steak today, is that not? 


Brett Bartholomew  5:45  

That’s what Liz is cooking right behind you. On a real note, I’m happy to have you here, you’re going to be the second police officer we’ve had on the show. And given that we talk so much about communication, strategy, perception, power dynamics. To me, it’s just a natural fit. You and people in your position have to deal with so many unique circumstances. But because our audience isn’t familiar with you, I’d love if you could ground, your position, what you do, how long you’ve been a part of the force, and just give us some insight in terms of what a day in the life of your responsibilities is like?


Tyson Shumway  6:17  

Yeah, absolutely. So I’ve been in law enforcement for about 16 years, I work for an agency in California. And I’ve worked in a lot of different capacities. Right now. I’m currently working the road as a patrol officer. But I’ve done seven years of Swat. I’ve also taught at our academy for a number of years. So I’ve worked with a lot of cadets a lot of teaching and a lot of instructing. And I also do that now in my own capacity now as a teacher for firearms training. And I also teach officers and in service training and teach them how to be safe on the road and how to do their job.


Brett Bartholomew  6:50  

So a good mix of and you’ve consolidated that really well. A good mix of teaching a good mix of your day to day responsibilities. Have you always been an officer in the state of California, you’ve been elsewhere? How did that career continue to progress? Or where did it start? 


Tyson Shumway  7:02  

Yeah, so I started in California, and I’ve been an officer, I started down in South LA, I worked in the LA area. And then after about two years, I moved up to Sacramento. And I’ve been in that area ever since in Swat capacity or teaching at our academy. And now I currently patrol the streets in Sacramento. And then I also teach outside of the department as well, I teach for a company who teaches firearms training and tactics and things like that as well


Brett Bartholomew  7:26  

So given that I was talking to Liz about this before you came on. And it’s funny because the average person, they tend to run into law enforcement, they either see him passing by or they’ve gotten pulled over. And everybody knows what it’s like the first time you get pulled over by a police officer. I mean, your heart is in your throat. But I think a lot of people consider what it’s like from your end. And so many of the things that you run into, can you give us a little insight whether that was your first stop, or things that you’ve learned? Or I mean, there’s so many things we could tap into here. But I think it’s just important to give the perspective of what it’s like from the other end of that. 


Tyson Shumway  8:01  

Yeah, absolutely. So you never know what you’re going to run into. Every time you pull over a car, it’s a different situation. So it’s from pulling over cars down in Los Angeles and running into cars that maybe had tinted windows or somebody that you walk up on the car, you’re not sure if it’s a grandma or if it’s some dude, that’s that’s there to try to hurt you. So running into those situations is always interesting. And that’s what’s exciting about the job. From that, not just pulling over cars, but actually going into houses as a part of our SWAT team. Kicking in a door and going into houses and not knowing what you’re going to find. Finding some crack dealer that you’re going to arrest and he has two hookers in the bedroom that you have to arrest as well that are wearing crotchless underwear and things like that 


Brett Bartholomew  8:46  

And there’s kids in the house. So you gotta manage 


Tyson Shumway  8:48  

You never know what you’re dealing with. 


Brett Bartholomew  8:49  

So with that, I mean, you have to perform a lot of calculations. I know just me teaching in front of groups, which is in no way comparable, in terms of stakes. But even then I’m thinking about, okay, how might I be coming across to this person? Because I can be very direct, I get very focused when I teach. How am I coming across to that person because I have to make sure that I manage we talked a lot about it and art of coaching as you know, you facilitate for us. We talked about impression management. And there’s ranges of your authentic self. So talk to me a little bit more of that building off of what we just said, because there’s something like you kick in the door. 


Tyson Shumway  9:21  



Brett Bartholomew  9:22  

Okay, you know how you’re coming across. And that’s not really the main concern, you’re kicking in a door for a reason. But when you approach a vehicle, you have to somehow manage your emotional state. So even though you might come across a certain way, right now it’s an older lady, or now it’s a guy that looks really tough, but I can tell he’s really scared, and I don’t want to elevate or potentiate his sense of threat. So how do you manage that range of who you really are, while making sure that you also keep things calm and steady? Does that make sense? 


Tyson Shumway  9:50  

Yeah. 100% Yeah. Whenever I walk up on a car into those situations, I try to take it from a bird’s eye view. You know, I try to take a step back and realize that I just stopped them, I’m kind of on their playing field, but they’re also on my playing field, I need to react to whatever they’re going to do. So depending on what the situation is, I try to treat them with the amount of respect that they deserve. Right, I try to treat the situation with respect and try to respect everybody that I’m talking to, until they give me a reason to ramp it up.


Brett Bartholomew  10:21  

Heads up, our only speaker School of the Year is coming up on June 1 And June 2. In Phoenix, Arizona, this is such a unique event, we keep it under 10 people, you get a chance to have a lot of reps and you get a lot of feedback. In a judgment free zone. We mix in a lot of fun, we’d go through everything on slide design, how to present more effectively how to be more articulate. And it really doesn’t matter whether you’re trying to actually build a speaking career, continue to scale the one you have, or if you just want to get more competent speaking in front of crowds, we’ve had people that have came that have done TED talks, we’ve had people that come that have social anxiety, it is a very welcoming atmosphere. 


So if you enjoy and appreciate the opportunity to grow and improve and connect with other like minded people, and you want a chance to become more articulate, to become more fluent, to improve how you get your message across, do not miss speaker school. Also, it is a perfect time of year to come to Phoenix, it is always right before it gets way too hot in the summer, you can make a little vacation out of it, you can go hiking, you can go to Sedona, you can go to Scottsdale, there’s so much to do. So go to Now, that’s Remember, this is our only one of the year early bird pricing is still available, we hope to see you there.


Tyson Shumway  11:47  

I try to treat them with the amount of respect that they deserve, right? I try to treat the situation with respect and try to respect everybody that I’m talking to, until they give me a reason to ramp it up. If they give me a reason to ramp it up, then I will ramp it up to where it needs to go. But for the most part, my interaction with the public is positive. So I’ll walk up to the car, talk to them, tell them why you stopped him and give them all the information that they need. I always try to be personable with them, if they have something with their car that they need to fix or something that it’s an issue, then I just talked to him about that. And then we go about our day and 99% of my interactions are positive. I don’t write a lot of tickets. 


I’ll walk up to them. And I’ll basically give them a verbal warning, Hey, you are going a little bit fast, you need to slow down. Because the way that I look at it is I’m there to serve. And I’m there to make sure that the public is safe in any situation that they’re in. So if I can make somebody go away from a situation with a smile on their face, rather than giving them a $500 ticket, that’s what I tried to do. I think that’s the kicker, right? respecting everybody giving them the respect that they deserve until they don’t deserve your respect anymore.


Brett Bartholomew  12:56  

Now with that, and pardon is probably a dumb question. You guys get training on that, like you go through simulations, role playing scenarios, anything like that, where you have to do this as part of your training?


Tyson Shumway  13:07  

We do but not enough. 


Brett Bartholomew  13:08  

So what does that look like? 


Tyson Shumway  13:10  

Yeah, the training basically walking up on a car and having a role player.


Brett Bartholomew  13:14  

Okay, so it’s done at the station or somewhere else? 


Tyson Shumway  13:17  

Yeah, we do it at the Academy a lot, happens a lot. And then once you graduate, the academy doesn’t happen as often. But every other year, you have situations where you’ll walk up on a car, and that person can be anything from just a regular violator to somebody with a gun. So we do those simulations where you have to deal with different situations and be able to ramp it up, but also be able to deescalate and bring it back down.


Brett Bartholomew  13:41  

What is the learning material or your framework based upon? Because I would imagine that it’s not just hey, aimlessly practice with this other individual. What do you guys base your framework off something whether it’s negotiation, persuasion, a certain technique, anything like that? Or do they just kind of go over core principles like, keep your calm, keep your cool things like that?


Tyson Shumway  14:03  

Yeah, it’s mostly just that just keep your calm, keep your cool. Deal with the situation, the way that needs to be dealt with, ramp it up if you need to, but also be able to de escalate. Unfortunately, there’s not a lot of instruction that goes into the communication process when police work, it’s trial and error a lot of times. 


Brett Bartholomew  14:23  

So it’s on you to learn those things on the back end yourself. 


Tyson Shumway  14:26  

Yeah, which is why I research and try to study and that’s why I’ve been to a lot of the stuff that you teach. And actually jumped into starting to teach with you guys because I think that that’s so important. In our field, we practice everything right, we practice shooting, we practice, resting control, we do all those things, but we don’t really practice the communication aspect. And I think that is one of the things that we can really incorporate a lot more is being able to communicate with the public better and being able to deal with those situations that we might find ourselves in so that we can de escalate better. And we realize how people communicate and why they might communicate with us in a certain way, so that we can get a better, more positive outcome in the situations that we find ourselves. 


Brett Bartholomew  15:09  

Yeah, I mean, it’s well said. It’s one thing that you just think about it, even from a coaching standpoint or teaching, there’s always consequences to the way that you coach, right? There’s positive feedback loops, negative feedback loops, but it doesn’t happen in a vacuum, there’s consequences. And those consequences can happen in a multitude of formats. Well, same thing with communication. And so I guess what I wonder here is, you think about all the PR, because police I mean,  you do. You get your fair share of bad PR. 


And in some cases, and so I know, some people won’t like me here. And there’s some cases maybe rightfully so because there’s assholes in every profession, right? But it’s one of those things like the Son pays for the sins of the father. So you have dirty cops, you use some idiot cops that they don’t respect the public, or they may be abused their power. Now all of them look that bad. Right? So given that, I would just think the public perception, why do you think more time isn’t paid on the communication side of things or attention paid on the communications, given the perception, given the fact that you kind of do have to, you’re a walking billboard, of what a police officers about that? Is it budget? Is it just perceived value?


Tyson Shumway  16:17  

I think it’s a little bit of both. I think there’s so many things that we have to train. And there’s certain bureaucracies that put into place the things that we have to train. So we have a training matrix of you have to do this, you have to go over hazmat, you have to go over a resting control the different things that we have to that a lot of those things get put on the backburner. And in any given quarter, we get one eight hour training day. So one eight hour training day is 


Brett Bartholomew  16:44  

A quarter


Tyson Shumway  16:44  

You get per quarter. 


Brett Bartholomew  16:45  

So four times a year. 


Tyson Shumway  16:47  

Yeah, and that’s separate from like range, we get to go to range, like once a month, to practice shooting and stuff. But an actual training day where we practice arresting control or anything like that is once per quarter. So it’s really not enough. So that’s why when when I talk about to law enforcement, I love to train, I love to teach, and you’ve seen the stuff that I love to do outside of the job. That’s why I put a lot of my own money and a lot of my own time into training, because this is more of a lifestyle than it is just a job. And a lot of those things are things that I feel like are necessary and could possibly one day save my life communicating with the public is what we do every single day. 


Brett Bartholomew  17:23  

That’s the job. 


Tyson Shumway  17:23  



Brett Bartholomew  17:24  

Yeah, and it’s fascinating, because I have to ask, and there’s so many other questions I want to ask about just law enforcement. But given that you bounced back and forth between doing that your day job and also teaching, what are some principles other than paying attention to strategic communication that have really crossed over? Or what are some things that you’ve just taken back from you that are just paid to teach effectively, also to interact effectively? Anything that’s crossover in those domains? And what I mean just to ground that, because I know it might not sound like the clearest question is, I can think back on my time working with athletes, it applies to everything we do now with multitude perfect. I don’t train athletes anymore. I haven’t for a number of years. 


But dealing with personalities, conflict resolution, understanding egos, agendas, attitudes, how people learn using constraints based learning, right? So if I wanted an athlete to cut a certain way, I could put cones or an obstacle there. So that would denote that. Same thing that you see we do in our workshops, right, we apply constraints, so somebody has to do something. What are some principles that have really crossed over from you or made you more aware, since you’ve been doing both?


Tyson Shumway  18:25  

I think the one of the biggest things is just being able to listen. Listen to how they’re communicating, and realize that there’s different ways to communicate. You know, we talk about it a lot, we have the different ways to communicate as far as like being a realist, or relator, an analyst or an empathizer. And I think in my job, whether I’m teaching or whether I’m working with the public, I have to be able to jump into each one of those communication styles. And I have to realize how that person is communicating back with me. And if they’re more of an empathizer, I need to be able to empathize with them. If they’re more of a relator, I need to be able to relate to them and do the things that I can to get on the same pages. I think those are the biggest things that I’ve taken away as being able to change my communication style when needed, but still be able to get my point across to the people that I’m trying to communicate with.


Brett Bartholomew  19:15  

Do you find that hard, though? Because sometimes we’ll run across people that will say, hey, I’ve listened to podcast come to a course, I understand that there’s different influence tactics, power dynamics, communication styles. For me, and I’m speaking as them, it gets really tough to be mindful of those things in the moment. And some of them are in, corporate jobs. You have heightened stakes, and not to diminish what they do at all right, but like there are certain circumstances that are life and death for you. Have you ever struggled with that?


Tyson Shumway  19:44  

Oh, yeah. 100% And that’s why I practice 


Brett Bartholomew  19:47  

Practice, right. 


Tyson Shumway  19:48  

Comedy. Yeah. And we do this scenario based training in my job and I do scenario based training when I come to you. I think I’ve been to three or four different apprentices and help facilitate a couple and every single time I go I learn more and I tried to take that back and practice the things. And we talked about, we practice shooting, we practice all these things. Why don’t we practice communication? So we don’t ever see people role playing a situation other than watching it on a video? Playing that type of situation where you’re now trying to talk to somebody that was just in a domestic violence situation. We don’t ever roleplay that we might watch a video and learn about how that happens, or what questions to ask. But we don’t ever train that in a role playing situation.


Brett Bartholomew  20:29  

Yeah. We had somebody write in, they wanted me to ask you this question. And I know that this is a tough one. They say, hey, if I get pulled over, I feel like there’s certain things you definitely don’t want to do. I obviously know the obvious, like not reaching for a glove compartment or doing any drastic movements, even if I don’t have anything. But I also feel like if I’m trying to be kind, I come off as disingenuous and could look suspicious. On the other hand, if I just act straight, narrow, bottom line is I don’t know how to act in front of a police officer. When they’re in front of me, I feel intimidated. Does he have any principles of how I should behave? So that I’m not perceived the wrong way?


Tyson Shumway  21:04  

Yeah, absolutely. It’s different for each police. For me, when I walk up on your car, I’m going to say, Hey, how you doing, how’s your day going? I’m just talking to a member of the public, until the situation deems that I need to go to take it a step up. So if you’re just a regular average Joe citizen being pulled over, just keep your hands in view, and talk to me, like, you saw me on the street that I wasn’t wearing my police uniform. I think that talking to us, like normal people, for me personally is a lot more respectful. So we can have a conversation rather than you being scared or having. 


Like, I walk up to cars all the time, and people’s hands are shaking, and they’re upset. I don’t take anything out of that as far as suspicion. They’re just, it’s natural. Yes, nervous, but just be be relaxed and talk to me like, I just stopped you on the street, and we’re having a conversation today. Imagine that I’m not even wearing my police uniform. Hey, 


Brett Bartholomew  22:06  

You’re naked, you’re standing there naked.


Tyson Shumway  22:07  

Exactly. Yeah, your registration is expired. I’m gonna give you a correctable citation for it. Have a nice day. That’s how most of my interactions go. 


Brett Bartholomew  22:15  

So with that, can you share a strategy or technique that you found in deescalating tense situations, you alluded to some of them already, right? Managing your communication style, things like that, but just anything else that people could apply in everyday conflicts, and I’m thinking about, you know, some of our clients, we went out and did an in service with an engineering firm. And some of the people there were very uncomfortable with conflict. And as you know, conflict takes many forms, it can be passive aggressiveness, it can be outright, just anger, screaming, yelling, so I’m not asking you to cover the whole spectrum. But just what are some things that you’ve learned principle wise about de escalating a tense situation.


Tyson Shumway  22:52  

So first of all, determine what the situation is right? Or the context, and find out what’s actually going on. And then a lot of times, I’ll just kind of just let them talk. I’m gonna sit there and listen and let them know that I’m listening, make that eye contact that I need to acknowledge that I’m listening to what they’re saying. And then try to fix the problem, I might be come up with some some rational reasons as to how to de escalate, I might empathize with them that, like I said before, the different types of communication that we need to have, so that I can determine what I need to do in that situation, every situation is different. 


But as far as just de escalating, I think just giving them some space, taking a step back and letting them kind of vent a little bit, is one of the biggest things. A lot of guys go in and try to fix the situation. They see someone that’s ramped up or amped up, and they think they need to go in and go hands on immediately. I kind of just stand there quietly, and not that I’m going to give them an inch, right. But if I need to jump in, I can but I give them that time to kind of let them come down on their own. It’s just like a toddler. You’ve all had seen temper tantrums for a toddler, if you kind of just let them sit there for a second, they realize oh, like nobody cares that I’m yelling and screaming, and then we can actually have a conversation about what’s going on.


Brett Bartholomew  24:09  

Yeah, it’s an interesting point you bring up because when you do think about it objectively, which is hard, it is hard to do, especially and I’ve had to be more realistic about my own bias of I’ve studied this stuff a while now. And so you can forget how hard it is, even though it can be difficult for me too. But what I mean is, you watch somebody in your point exactly. When they’re just losing it or whether it is a tantrum or they’re expressing themselves. That’s their way to remove stress. And a lot of times we feel compelled to have to respond to everything they do and say, and when I think I’m hearing you say is hey, sometimes you just kind of let them get that out. Don’t respond to everything, and then pick your moment. Is that right?


Tyson Shumway  24:53  

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And it’s totally different per situation. Like if I walk up to onto a scene and the guy has a gun in his hand. Sure, that’s a totally different situation, you can only de escalate so far so much. Right? So I think that’s a big thing, too, is that the society wants us to de escalate everything down to a positive encounter. And that’s just not going to happen. 


Brett Bartholomew  25:13  

You’re not in control of all of that. Right? 


Tyson Shumway  25:15  

Exactly. If they escalated up to a deadly force situation, I might be able to de escalate down to like a control. 


Brett Bartholomew  25:21  

That’s a really good point 


Tyson Shumway  25:22  

Yeah, but I can’t de escalate all the way down to like, Okay, have a nice day and have a positive interaction on that


Brett Bartholomew  25:29  

Well, I think that’s really important for people to remember, because the average person doesn’t have a camera on them all the time, or they don’t have a body cam. And so when they see something on the news, it’s very easy for them to react and oh, did they have to do that? Did they have to do this? And well, wait a minute. Think about if you had a camera on you, every time you got in an argument with your spouse, or every time you lost it because something else happened. Like, you make a great point, there’s levels of de escalation, you can maybe bring it down to a certain point, you’re not gonna be able to take every single interaction and make it what you want. 


We talked about complexity, at the apprenticeship. Complexity is there’s so many interdependent factors that are always engaging with one another. If somebody is on drugs, they’re on meth. And there’s a bunch of stuff going on around them. And then they see three officers, they’re going to perceive you in a certain way, and you’ve got to react and adapt to that. 


Tyson Shumway  26:19  



Brett Bartholomew  26:20  

And the best you can do is– that’s, again, why I was so surprised that there’s not more training on de escalation, because you revert back to your training in times of chaos. 


Tyson Shumway  26:29  

Yeah, absolutely. And, honestly, it would be great to be able to do that, especially with the more and more kind of mental health issues that we’re seeing nowadays, being able to de escalate that down. Because it could be somebody that is just schizophrenic or is having a bad day, or, autism on the spectrum and stuff like that, we’re seeing that more and more. So being able to realize that situation needs a different approach than somebody who is just committed a bank robbery, he’s trying to get away, right? Like, I’m going to treat them completely different.


Brett Bartholomew  27:06  

Which by the way, if you’re new to the podcast, or you’ve been listening for a while, and you just want a reminder, we have a great episode, we’ll link in the show notes all about how to communicate with those who are neurodiverse, it’s definitely worth checking out. There’s nothing more complex in the universe than the human brain. And we are all wired. And we all fired differently. And so it’s really important to make sure to consider that. 


All right. So here’s something I want to talk about as well. Is you seem like a very calm, measured, pragmatic experience guy, but you screw up like the rest of us. 


Tyson Shumway  27:37  



Brett Bartholomew  27:38  

What are some things that you’ve done? What are some principles or things that you try to do when you know you’ve breached trust made a mistake, approach the situation in a way that was less than ideal? What are some things that you do? And this could be with a colleague or somebody in the community? 


Tyson Shumway  27:54  

Yeah, I think for me, most of those situations have happened when I’m teaching. And I’m teaching cadets or I’m teaching officers and things like that. I might make a mistake, or might miss the target or things like that, we’re all human. And we’re all gonna make mistakes. I think the biggest thing with that is just being humble. Being humble and be able to admit that you made a mistake, 


Brett Bartholomew  28:14  

Laugh at yourself sometimes 


Tyson Shumway  28:16  

100% builds credibility, right? If I can, mess up, but show that I messed up and talk about, hey, I messed up and this is all training, we’re trying to move forward. It kind of build some of that credibility. If I go into everything saying I’m perfect, and have that big, huge ego, and then I mess up, that completely just diminishes your credibility. So I try to preface everything. When I teach that, hey, I’m human, I’m going to show you some different ways that I do things. The way that I do things is not the only way. There’s a lot of different ways to do this when I’m instructing right, as far as reloads or malfunction drills with guns, and that goes with everything, right? 


Communication is the same way. There’s a lot of different ways to get to the determination of a communication or a conversation that you want to have. So I’ll preface it with that say, Hey, I’m human, we all make mistakes. These are the things that I do that I’ve found worked best for me, there might be things that work for differently for you. And I just tried to go into it with that level of humility, that can kind of show that I don’t know everything. None of us know everything. We’re all in this world just trying to do our best and continuing to learn,


Brett Bartholomew  29:26  

Which is interesting, because that’s definitely not the norm. I mean, you watch a lot of people teach, and people feel really compelled to prove something. And I know there was time in my career I did as well, early on. In my previous life as a strength coach, if I have the chance to teach. I’m thinking, I have a responsibility. I’m representing an organization. I want to make sure that I do this well. But if you looked at it from the outside perspective, you think, wow, that guy’s using kind of a command and control style of teaching. And then you start to just something happens with life and experience and after you’ve eaten it enough. Are you just realize that true expertise is very in a way relaxed? It’s all about providing value not proving. But that can be tough. And I imagine you have to see it too in an emotionally charged environment within law enforcement. I mean, not everybody gets the opertunity. How do you get the opportunity to even teach cadets or those in that setting? 


Tyson Shumway  30:19  

Yeah, so it’s an application process. But yeah, I was recruited the first time I taught physical training and defensive tactics. So I was recruited by another officer who was the sergeant at the time. And he just appreciated the way that I taught, he’d seen me instruct in other areas and stuff before and thought that I just had a good way about me. And I think that’s one of the biggest things is that I try to make the people that I teach comfortable. If they’re comfortable, and then they’re going to be able to learn. Nobody wants to go into a situation where they’re just going to be talked at, or demeaned and things like that. So while there’s a lot of demeaning that goes on in the academy, as you can imagine, with cadets yelling and screaming and stuff, I still just was able to make them feel comfortable and realize that, hey, one day, you’re gonna be an officer on the road with me, and I want to get you to the point to where I want to work alongside you. So making that situation, the most comfortable that they can, and being able to kind of be more of a colleague with them than an authoritarian. 


Brett Bartholomew  31:17  

And I’m glad you bring that up. And I know that there’s probably sensitive things here that you can’t talk about. So if I need to move on, I need to move on. But we get a lot of questions into the nature of our work about how to manage politics. And of course, we don’t mean governmental politics, we mean, micropolitics. Everybody in their workplace, and I’ve yet to go into an organization that doesn’t deal with some form of politics. It’s a reality of just social life. 


Tyson Shumway  31:41  



Brett Bartholomew  31:42  

And there’s not just one question here, so I’m gonna give you freedom to take it where you want. But what are examples of kind of interdepartmental or just politics that you’ve experienced in the workplace? And how do you manage them?


Tyson Shumway  31:56  

Yeah, so there is a lot of politics in law enforcement. There’s a lot of people who are trying to get to the next promotion angling. Yeah. And honestly, I used to get wrapped up in it a lot. I used to get wrapped up in it and get


Brett Bartholomew  32:11  

What does that mean? Do you mean you used to think proactively or 


Tyson Shumway  32:14  

No, I used to just get angry about it, because I was people in positions that I didn’t think they should be there. And there was there was a lot of pushback on things that I wanted to do that I wasn’t able to do and make change. And then I got to the point to where I just started focusing on what I can control, that I can control the way that I teach my officers I can control the the experience that my cadets are going to have with me, I can control those things. I can control the Range Days that I run for my officers now and get them the best training that I can provide. I can’t control the huge bureaucracy, I can control the stuff that we have, like our guns, I can’t control any of that stuff. But I can control my attitude. And the way that I approached the way that I teach and the stuff that I teach. So I started focusing on what was important to my officers and what I could control. And then none of that other stuff really mattered.


Brett Bartholomew  33:12  

That’s good insight, especially because just going back to we had another law enforcement member of law enforcement on really early in the show, he actually was my neighbor. And he was talking about one form of politics, he dealt with surrounded body cams. And he felt like his department, and I’m simplifying this for the sake of time, could really use more officers use more human capital. But the head of the department was like now we need more body cams. And the issue was, is they didn’t have enough storage space to even store a lot of the footage that these body cams were capturing. And so what was happening is a lot of public defenders had caught on to this and knew that in a certain amount of time, I don’t know what it is, maybe you know, the footage of those body cams had to be erased because even if it’s stored on the cloud, there’s so much gathered. 


And so he said what was problematic to me is it almost felt like I couldn’t do police work anymore. Because you’d go get people off the streets. And then they could basically just come back and deny that something had ever happened or that it happened in a certain way. They could say this has been manipulated. And it just is like what are we doing here? Are we subject to just technology we need more good cops. So I’ve got to imagine there’s big frustrating things like that. And then there’s also just got to be like in every profession, upstart douchebags that just want to make a name for themselves in the department and so they’ll make you look back. 


Tyson Shumway  34:31  

Yeah, absolutely. And that was one of the things that like I said I was really wrapped around is trying to figure out how I could make those changes up the ladder. And with a big bureaucracy, I work for a huge department. 


Brett Bartholomew  34:50  

How big? 


Tyson Shumway  34:50  



Brett Bartholomew  34:51  



Tyson Shumway  34:52  

6 to 7000 


Brett Bartholomew  34:54  

Just officers or everybody 


Tyson Shumway  34:56  

Everybody. Yeah, so and we’re spread out all over California and stuff. So though, it’s really impossible to make those changes that you want to make as far as tactics or new training and stuff like that, but I can control my group of officers that work at my office, which is about 60. And so I can 


Brett Bartholomew  35:12  

That’s good number. 


Tyson Shumway  35:12  

Yeah, I can focus on them. And I can focus on working. And I started doing that with everything, whether it’s my kids, I focus on what it can control or in communication in any of my other other jobs or other avenues that I that I teach. I focus on what I can control. And a lot of times that’s kind of just given me the freedom to not worry about the stuff that I can’t. It’s really refreshing. 


Brett Bartholomew  35:36  

What do you teach your kids? And by the way, if you don’t mind, tell your audience how many kids you have? How many kids? 


Tyson Shumway  35:41  



Brett Bartholomew  35:41  

What do you teach them about conflict? Conflict resolution, some of the things that you have to just innately encountered and have to deal with?


Tyson Shumway  35:50  

Yeah, I think the biggest thing I teach them is just to treat everybody with respect. Treat people with respect, but also be able to ramp up situations if you need to, right. So I think the biggest thing is whether you have conflict with a friend or conflict with any situation, just take a step back. Take a step back and kind of get that bird’s eye view of the situation, realize that everybody has different experiences. Where the person that you’re having a conflict might be coming from, and that kind of try to understand them, and then approach it the best way that you can. 


Brett Bartholomew  36:26  

Yeah, it’s interesting, because kids will start asking these questions early. And it’s funny, because I’ll take a path that you alluded to, one of our clients or something that comes to our courses, we can get a little bit more forensic about identifying the source of the conflict, right? We can give them terminology. With Bronson, my four year old, he’s just recently, those power dynamics start coming early. And he said the other day, daddy, so and so is not very nice to me. I said, Well, what happened? And he goes into it, and he’s like, What do I do? I go, Well, you you don’t have to play with him anymore. If somebody’s not nice, you just walk away, go play with somebody else. And he said, but sometimes he also hits me. And I’m like, oh, and this is where my audience won’t like that. 


I go, Well, buddy, two options. If he hits you, one, you go talk to the teacher. He said, Okay, what’s the other one I go, let’s give him a little pushback. And it’s funny, because some parents would say that’s radical or whatever. But I remember specifically at his last daycare, he had this kid named Tor. And Bronson was coming home. Bronson’s three at the time, it’s coming up with black I other people coming in with black. I’m like, Who is this kid? I go in there. And the teachers like yo, for what it’s worth, I even told the other kids to whack this kid back. And so you know, I’m telling a joke in this, but we see in the research shows, these political games, these power dynamics, these issues with conflict start early in the sense that kids don’t really know how to reconcile them. 


And then those kids become adults that don’t know how to reconcile them because they don’t get teaching or strategy on it. And so it’s interesting, I always want to ask, what would you teach your kids about conflict? Because you can say, we’ll take the high road. And any number of these books beside you right now, as we’re sitting here will tell you that. And I just remember my son was just like, well what’s the high road all the time? Because there is a point in time where you can say, hey, I’m gonna walk away. I’m gonna be the bigger person. But there’s also a fine line between you need to know when to not be a doormat. 


Tyson Shumway  38:22  

Absolutely. Yeah, I’ve taught my kids that from a very young age to know who you are. Know who you are, 


Brett Bartholomew  38:29  

It’s tough. 


Tyson Shumway  38:29  

Yeah. Know who you are, and realize that if somebody tries to alter that, that’s not okay. Like my daughter recently got got married, 


Brett Bartholomew  38:38  

Like a negative, abusive way. 


Tyson Shumway  38:40  

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, my daughter got married last year. And then seven months later, went through a divorce, you know, and the whole seven months that she was dealing with that she was changing who she was. And we had those conversations a lot 


Brett Bartholomew  38:52  

In terms of her values? 


Tyson Shumway  38:54  

No, not in terms of her values. But she just wasn’t her happy self. She wasn’t doing a lot of things that she liked to do as far as like doing the music that she loved to play or being artistic and things like that. So she was changing because she was being pushed down. She was facing a lot of adversity and wasn’t able to stay who she was. And I told her that, so said McKenna, if you can’t be the person that you are supposed to be, then something’s wrong. You’re in a bad situation. So she realized that and was able to get out of that relationship. But that’s the biggest thing I think that we need to realize. And even in police work, know who you are, know your values. Know why you became a police officer in the first place. If you became a police officer to go out and write tickets to soccer moms, then maybe you need to find a new job. But if you get one guy became a police officer to make the world a better place. Take a step back and realize is that actually what you’re doing? Is that what you’re doing and is that what you’re still focused on? Or are you falling victim to the bureaucracy of what you’re being told that is why you became a police officer.


Brett Bartholomew  39:56  

No, that’s excellent point. I was gonna ask, what’s the balance of that? Because I know the context that you gave those examples in. But there’s people out there and there is an argument to be made. I would say people need to be willing to change who they are like, you get married. My wife’s not the same person. She’s taken on some of me, I’ve taken on some of her. So can you differentiate between what you mean by that? Because we all should evolve who we are. 


Tyson Shumway  40:19  

Right. Yeah. I’ve been married 22 years and crazy in law enforcement. Like she knew me before I was a cop. So I say that’s why she still loves me. But yeah, we’ve been married 22 years, and we’ve completely changed. Like, I’ve changed some things in my life, and she’s changed some things in hers. But if you’re not changing for the positive, if you’re not progressing, you’re just regressing. And I talk about that a lot too, with my students and stuff like that. If you’re not progressing and not actually moving forward with your life. And you’re regressing or you’ve regressed back to things that you don’t like about yourself that you’re doing things that don’t bring any meaning to your life, then that’s what I’m talking about. You know who you are, you need to continue to progress and continue to progress for the positive. And if you’re not progressing, then you’re just regressing.


Brett Bartholomew  41:05  

Yeah, it’s an interesting name. Because sometimes, and you feel free to disagree with us. Sometimes changing for the positive doesn’t feel like it in the moment. And what I mean is, so I’m working with a client right now. And he’s trying to overcome some internal politics at work. And I said, Hey, imagine there is almost this antihero version of yourself. Not necessarily dark, because an antihero is more of a gray character, right, depending on– and we’re not talking about comedic anti heroes like Deadpool. I just mean, somebody that knows that life isn’t black and white, right? And you have to sometimes break some rules, and you’re gonna have to deal with some moral ambiguity. That’s reality. Because even if we try to do the most ethical thing in the world, there’s going to be secondary consequences of that. 


So I said, we’re the antihero version of you do and just for fun, let’s think of the antithesis. And he said, Well, I’m a peacekeeper, by trade, I’m just somebody that’s very analytical, but I’m going to try to keep the peace. So I guess the antihero version of myself would maybe strip some shit a little bit and maybe be a little bit more assertive. And I said, Well, could you imagine how that might be useful in this scenario? And I want to respect his privacy. So I’m not going to get into that. Right. But he was like, Yeah, I just don’t think it would feel very good. And I said, well I acknowledge that, I appreciate you being honest about that. But could it lead to a net positive result? And he said, Yeah, I think it could. And there’s no agenda and me bringing that up. It’s more of just teeing it up for you to riff off of at do you think there’s ever a time where that’s valid, that maybe we need to lean into the darker side of ourselves? Or some traits that we don’t see as traditionally like, conventional or clean? And we can find value there? Or do you think no?


Tyson Shumway  42:41  

No, I think that’s definitely a viable option. The ends justify the means sometimes, right? So if I want to get to a point to where I’m progressing, or I’m making progress, I might need to go a different route than I normally would. Go around, what’s traditionally acceptable? And I think, that’s definitely an option. I’ve seen that a few times in my life with different things to come to different conclusions. And I think that, that in any given circumstance, there’s not one, like I said before, there’s not one right way to come to a conclusion you have to kind of trial and error. 


Brett Bartholomew  43:23  

Yeah. So with that, are you cool with me fire in some Hot Seat questions that are on theme with this? 


Tyson Shumway  43:30  



Brett Bartholomew  43:30  

And then we’re gonna end this, you’ll get control on how we end this. So sticking with that, sometimes leaning into different aspects of yourself, whether it’s the antihero and alternate persona, anything like that, I’m gonna ask you some questions. What are some traits or qualities that you, and the wordings tough here, that you try to avoid? Or maybe you’ve previously rejected in yourself? And how have embracing or understanding those qualities or selectively leveraging them actually helped you at times?


Tyson Shumway  44:00  

Like I said, I think


Brett Bartholomew  44:01  

Give me something that you feel like is usually like, Man that wouldn’t be looked at as by most people. Like for me, just because I don’t want to be vague. I can be hot tempered. And I know that there’s many times I gotta manage that. There’s other times where it’s tremendously focusing to me. You could argue that I’ve created my best content whether written or otherwise, when I’m really frustrated about something. And so that anger is useful to me that if I know how to leverage. Does that make sense?


Tyson Shumway  44:29  

100% and I think I’m kind of the same way. I’m so even keel and so like, relaxed most of the time and approach situations with like that bird’s eye view that I think dialing in and actually becoming more aggressive. And attacking things is out of character sometimes for me but I think I’ve had some of the best success when I do that. So it’s great being more aggressive, you know, being more aggressive 


Brett Bartholomew  44:57  

Decision making


Tyson Shumway  44:58  

And just being able to make decisions on the fly. You know, sometimes I can’t take that bird’s eye view. And sometimes I do have to rush in I think sometimes I’ve made the best decisions that when I’ve done things dynamically, rather than just kind of take a step back and, and wait for things to evolve. 


Brett Bartholomew  45:14  

Yeah, that’s something I appreciate you bringing that up that some, we’ve talked. Liz and I have talked about a good bit is she can tend to be somebody that wants to sit back and analyze a lot. And I’m like, Hey, sometimes you just got to make faster decisions, you got to go with your gut. And then periodically, I’ve got to do the opposite of that. So I think that’s an important thing for people to just consider. There are certain traits and behaviors that are kind of beaten out of us through society, Oh, this isn’t socially acceptable, or this doesn’t appear like the right thing to do, to the point where I don’t even know if we can tell dirty jokes anymore half the time. 


But sometimes I talked about this unconscious coaching, sometimes those dark sided traits and behaviors can have a benefit. All right, let me give me another one. Let’s see here. I don’t want to make it too easy. If you– no that’s a tough one too, let me see. All right. So what is a lie or a misconception, you’ve told yourself in the past, or maybe you’re telling yourself now about your ability or self worth situation? And what I mean to ground this is any movie, any book starts with a lie that the character believes Goodwill Hunting, he doesn’t believe that he’s worthy of love, because he’s got a traumatic past. Thor, Thor thinks that all of his strength comes from Mjölnir powers, right. So we get sent to earth, everything is all this time, you can find them in the Bible, you can find them on your bookshelf, you can find them in the movie, the character starts is incomplete. They have a self limiting belief, which is usually reinforced by something they went through in life. And they’ve got to overcome that what is something you’ve had to overcome, like a self limiting belief or lie at certain points in your life? 


Tyson Shumway  46:54  

I think and my wife will tell you this, I think like I always try to just convince her that I’m just a normal guy. You know, I’m just a normal guy going through the motions day to day. And she always tries to tell me how exceptional I am. How I have four jobs and I’m always out there teaching, I’m always out there trying to make the world a better place and do all these things. And I think I get wrapped up in that so much, because I see so many people in the world that are doing so many amazing things. And I think I’m just a normal guy. I have a small, conglomerate of people that actually follow me. I have a small group of people that I have a little bit of influence over. But I don’t see myself as being anything grandiose or anything. But you know, there are people that do. My wife and my kids are the ones that do and when you take a look at that, that’s what really matters. You know, the people that are closest to you who really know you. But I think that’s the biggest thing for me is I just feel like I’m a normal guy just going through the motions. 


Brett Bartholomew  47:52  

But how does that negatively impact you because that’s one thing that’s hallmarked by a lie that a character believes or they’re ghosts or whatever is it keeps them from being this realized Self? 


Tyson Shumway  48:02  

Yeah, I don’t know that it doesn’t negatively impact me.


Brett Bartholomew  48:07  

It can’t be a lie. It can’t be a self limiting belief. You gotta go deeper.


Tyson Shumway  48:10  

I don’t know if I have one 


Brett Bartholomew  48:11  

Well, we’re gonna sit here and tell you that like for, and I think it’s important, it can change. There’s times where I don’t do what I do. For fun. I do it to make a difference. But there’s certainly some times that lie could creep up for me, is it really, right? Am I making a difference? And it’s easy to say, Well, yeah, you made a difference in my life but I know that sounds cynical, and I’m a darker shade of grey than most. But we grew up and a lot of relatives died early. And you kind of see how all right, somebody can die. People miss them for a year or two, unless it’s, your parents or your wife. And it just kind of the world keeps spinning. So sometimes I can get caught up in like, Hey, is what I’m doing this book, that book that podcast, the 300 up done, doesn’t really matter. Or if long after I’m warm food or whatever, are people just gonna forget. 


And it’s tricky, because that lie or those like that can start to keep you from doing certain things or applying effort. And so there’s a lot of people out there that feel like well, I’m not good at and some people think they’re too good at things like there’s a lie. Some characters believe that I know, are that I’m already good enough at communication, I’m already good at this. So I just encourage anybody listening to this, think about something that’s self limiting. Whether if I start this, it won’t matter. Or I’m only good if I stay in this field. Otherwise, I’ve wasted my life. If I change careers, or people only like me, because of blank. Think of whatever that lie is. I know another person that came on one time talked about how they bought into this for a long time that if they put themselves out there that they’d be self promoting and it would remove the purity of what they did. 


And I remember laughing at that because that was something a lot of coaches think about if you put yourself out there, you’re a guru, you’re not in it for the right reason. I’m like, wow, that sounds like a really insecure thing to say. Because you see a musician. They need to promote their album, you see Nick Saban on Aflac commercials. I think it’s the opposite. It’s pretty vain to think you could be good at what you do, and that people should just know without putting yourself out there. But that’s kind of what I mean by that. Somebody give me one more chance that they have a self limiting belief. 


Tyson Shumway  50:14  

Yeah, I think, well, like you said, I think that is the biggest thing for me. Am I really making a difference? In any aspect, you know, I teach firearms training. I am a law enforcement officer I help teach for art of coaching. But am I really making a difference? And a lot of times, I think that we never really see it. And I think I need to be more okay with that, that I might not see the changes that I’m making, but I just continue to put myself out there. But I think that’s the biggest thing is like, I’m working so hard. I work three or four jobs, and I’m trying to support my family and do all those things. Does it really matter? It doesn’t really matter in the end, or did I miss out on things that I should have focused on more just because I’m trying to put myself out there in different aspects?


Brett Bartholomew  51:02  

Yeah. Well, you hit on a rich vein there of you’re not always going to see that difference. There’s people that I thought that I’d never reached. And then something as simple as a social media post, they put out where they used a quote, that I’d utilized. Now, whether they attributed it to me or not. I’m like, okay, something stuck there subconsciously. Or I think that’s a big lie. In general, if you think you’re only a good leader, you’re only good if you make an immediate impact. Yeah, that would be a huge slap in the face to anybody that fought for civil rights, women’s rights, any rights whatsoever. A lot of those times we’re still fighting for certain things, or thinking about the founding fathers, right. 


Think about anything, a lot of times. If we do die and become ghosts, everything we’re sitting there being like, it’s 1000 years, and these people still haven’t figured it out yet. Was it all in vain? But you just got to figure out. I think a better question to ask yourself is, am I contributing? Because that’s all you can do. Right? You know that you’re not making a difference if you sit on the sidelines. And so letting that cynicism of, well, I don’t know if it would matter? Well, it’s definitely not gonna matter if you don’t do anything, right. You know, I want to give you the final word, we’ve talked about impression management, perception, personal growth, biases, overcoming your demons. Anything else you want to get off your chest?


Tyson Shumway  52:13  

Nah, I just appreciate you having me on. I think that like I talked about before, if you’re out there practicing to become a professional in any aspect of your life, and you’re not practicing communication, you’re not practicing how to communicate and how to interact with either your employees or your bosses or your family or those around you, then you’re missing a big aspect of what’s going to make you a well rounded person.


Brett Bartholomew  52:40  

They’re gonna think I pay you to say that. 


Tyson Shumway  52:42  

No, they might. But 


Brett Bartholomew  52:43  

I didn’t transfer anything? 


Tyson Shumway  52:45  



Brett Bartholomew  52:45  

We don’t have your Venmo? 


Tyson Shumway  52:46  



Brett Bartholomew  52:47  

Well, I want to tell you how much I appreciate it. This isn’t like other podcasts, we don’t go through weeks of preparation, you come on, and you’re going to be asked what you’re going to be asked, and you’ve got to roll with the punches and improvise. And some people do that. And they don’t necessarily mean to but sometimes can give superficial answers, kind of play it safe. I especially appreciate that you did it. Because you are in a job where there’s a lot of public scrutiny, very visible, people already have preconceived notions of it. And you just didn’t hold back. So I want to thank you for taking the time and coming on down and doing this. 


Tyson Shumway  53:19  

No problem. Try to be real. 


Brett Bartholomew  53:20  

Alright, folks, listen, if anything in here helped you whatsoever, please share it with at least five people. We do this because we love this. But it’s also our livelihood. The only way that we can continue to do these things is with the support of people like you. So you can go to and hop on our newsletter, learn more about our courses, our live events, our one to one virtual mentoring. We have somebody for something for everybody. You don’t have to travel. If you want to travel and get around other people. There’s options for that too. But we just appreciate you spreading the word. So for myself, Tyson and the rest of the art of coaching team. We’re thankful for you and we’ll talk to you next time.

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