In Art Of Coaching Podcast, Podcasts

“Leadership isn’t for me.  I’m naturally introverted, quiet, and shy – no one would ever listen to me.”

Although this isn’t a direct quote, it’s a common excuse we hear from coaches, leaders, and business owners alike as to why they can’t (or won’t) lead or have the impact they want on those around them.  And to put it bluntly, this topic doesn’t get the amount of discussion it deserves.

That’s why in today’s episode Victor Hall, VP of Operations at EXOS, provides insight on his own experience pursuing impactful leadership as an introvert.  Together, we explore how to influence others, navigate different conversational styles and break through the barriers of shyness. 

Victor Hall has spent over 20 years training athletes, leading performance teams, and educating fellow coaches and trainers. During that time, he has worked within collegiate, private facilities, and military environments. Victor joined EXOS in 2010 as a Performance Manager of a Human Performance Program for the Department of Defense, and currently serves as the Vice President of Operations at EXOS.

We cover a few key components that make up this pursuit of effective leadership, including:

  • The secrets of making an impact as an introvert (10:45)
  • How self awareness contributes to leadership and creating a lasting impact (13:40 & 46:20)
  • Where his natural tendencies haven’t served him in the past (15:55)
  • What he does to embrace authenticity instead of trying to “fix” himself (1:09:25)

Related Resources: 

E202: Why Facts & Logic Don’t Change Our Minds

E227: Stu McMillan: No B.S. Leadership Lessons from an Olympic Coach

E240: The 4 Styles of Communication

How to Connect with Coach Hall:

Podcast Partners:

The Art of Coaching Apprenticeship Workshop: Making an impact as an introvert is only one of the overwhelming number of constraints we may face as we navigate the messy realities of leadership.  If this is a skill you’d like to develop, or if you know someone who struggles with this, The Apprenticeship is the place to go. We won’t waste your time with any inspirational ‘rah-rah’ fluff, or just tell you to keep grinding.  We will give you tactical tools and strategies – specific skills to work on and methods to practice them.  And on top of the information, we give you practice and feedback you need to start making progress NOW.  Our Early Bird Discount for our Sioux Falls, SD workshop ENDS June 26th, so don’t miss out!  Save $150 and sign up today HERE.

In addition, our most recent live event discounts offer students 40% off, and military & first responders 10% off.  These offers are here to stay, so be sure to reach out to us HERE for your customized discount code!

 BetterHelp: Today’s episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. At some level, we all struggle with unexpected challenges in life. BetterHelp is an accessible, convenient, private, and affordable therapy option to help you look at your problems a little differently, feel less stressed, and gain confidence. Visit for 10% off your first month.

Manscaped:  As our newest sponsor, Manscaped came in as the unexpected hero during the chaos of our recent move.  I needed something easy to use and convenient that was going to keep me clean cut and ready to approach my day, no matter what unexpected calls or meetings came up.  And with Father’s Day approaching quickly, what better gift to give than the highest quality set of men’s grooming products? You don’t have much time, so visit TODAY and get 20% Off and Free Shipping with the code AOCMAN20.


Brett Bartholomew  0:21  

all right, before we get into the nitty gritty of today’s episode, let’s talk about something a little less orthodox grooming. Now, Don’t roll your eyes at me. I’m not talking about just your face or your hair, but all of the real estate in between. Are you blushing yet? Well, that’s where manscaped and their nifty little gadget, the lawnmower 4.0 comes into play. I’ve already talked about in the past, this thing saved me when I was moving cross country. But this trimmer is not for the half hearted. It is a serious tool for anyone who truly cares about looking their best, anytime, anywhere. It has what they call an advanced skin safe technology that I can vouch for. It’s a fancy way of saying, Hey, you’re not accidentally going to Nick yourself every time you trim. More importantly, you don’t have to charge this thing after like every two uses. But the wizards at manscaped did not stop there, they put a 4,000k LED spotlight on this thing. So you can literally see anywhere you need to to get the job done, and it is waterproof. That means you can take the sweet little powerhouse into the shower, and it’s not even going to blink. And as an art of coaching podcast listener, you get 20% off and free shipping by using the code A O C, man 20 is A O C, man 20 just use it at checkout. That’s 20% off free shipping, A O C, man 20 on anything they provide.


Rebekah Gold  1:50  

Today’s episode is brought to you by the art of coaching apprenticeship workshops. There’s very few people that wake up and think you know what, today, I just want to be a great communicator. But almost all of us wake up at some point and say things like, I wish I had less drama to deal with at work or I wish I could make better decisions under pressure. Or even I just want to get more done and be a better leader. And that’s exactly why our leadership development workshop was created. Because social agility is something that you use daily and it affects every aspect of your life, especially when you’re stressed out or just overwhelmed by all the different things you have going on or that big project or just a busy schedule in general. And our last three apprenticeship workshops of 2023 are coming up quickly. We have one in Canton, Georgia, just outside of Atlanta at the end of July. One in Sioux Falls, South Dakota at the end of August, and one in East Hanover, New Jersey at the beginning of September. And the early bird discount deadlines are coming up even faster. So go to to save $150 and take advantage of that discount. The bottom line is if you are somebody who wants to get better at thinking on the fly, learning how to influence people in an ethical way, understanding how to be more persuasive and knowing how to handle some of the most crucial and critical conversations that you may have in your life. This is the place to go. We’ll see you there


Brett Bartholomew  3:47  

Welcome to the Art of coaching Podcast. I’m Brett Bartholomew. And at a young age poor communication nearly cost me my life. Now, I help others navigate the gray area of social interaction, power dynamics and communication so they can become more adaptable leaders regardless of their profession, age or situation. This podcast is for everybody who is fascinated with solving people problems. So if you’re in the no nonsense type who appreciates frank conversations, advice you can put to use immediately and learning how others navigate the messy realities of leadership. You’re in the right place. I’m glad that you’re joining us. Let’s dive in


Hey, everyone, you’re gonna love today’s episode, and that’s because we’re touching on a topic that really impacts a lot of people but doesn’t always get the amount of discussion that it deserves. And that is impactful leadership for introverts really exploring how to influence others, navigate different conversational styles and break through a lot of the barriers of shyness. We’re also going to talk about the importance of self awareness and leadership and how all of these things contribute to creating a lasting impact and I remember all of our discussions are raw, and today is no exception. I am joined by my friend Victor Hall. And Victor has spent over 20 years training athletes, leading performance teams, and educating fellow coaches and trainers. During that time, he has worked within the collegiate sector, private sector and the military environment. And he joined his current employer Exos, in 2010, as a performance manager of human performance, specifically in the program for the Department of Defense. And he currently serves as the Vice President of Operations. 


Another thing that makes Victor so special as he knows how to take a story, or a case study, and make it relatable to any walk of life, and today is really no exception. And I’ll be honest, this conversation didn’t go where I thought it was gonna go. And I’m very grateful for that. It’s a sleeper, meaning that he is so cool, calm and collected in the way that he delivers information. And that information is hidden, so dense, but in a very relatable way, that if you’re not paying attention, you’re going to miss some real gems. So together, we unravel the secrets of making an impact as an introvert, talking about what really led to him becoming an introvert. Was it something that he was always like? Where did it serve him? Where did it not serve Him, and more importantly, what he does to embrace authenticity instead of trying to quote unquote, fix that, and being able to overcome shyness so that he can connect with others. So make sure you’re tuned in, turn me up, and let’s get rolling.


Hey, everyone, welcome back to another episode of the podcast. I’m sitting here with Victor Hall. Victor, welcome, man.


Victor Hall  6:33  

Thank you, BB. Great to be here.


Brett Bartholomew  6:34  

Yeah, although I think you’re lying, you say Great to be here. Folks, if you can’t see this, and you can’t, because we’re not able to video. This one. If you listen to the last podcast, my family and I just moved cross country. So Victor is sitting here in a room that is way too hot, a partially constructed studio, but I will say you at least have a comfy leather chair and a nice microphone. So at least you got that. 


Victor Hall  6:55  

Yeah, you got to set up. 


Brett Bartholomew  6:56  

Yeah, yeah. So it makes sense to have you on when we just did an episode about a monumental change that we’ve gone through, you are somebody that has been through a tremendous amount of change in your life. Now you help others in many different ways, whether it’s as a manager, director, leader, and as a coach, overall, navigate change in their own. But when I say that you’ve been through a lot of change. You’ve hopped around, you’ve had to find yourself in a variety of different circumstances. Can you give the audience a little context in terms of how many times whether it’s, you’ve moved, you’ve changed careers, anything like that, to help us get to know you a little bit better?


Victor Hall  7:28  

Yeah, no problem. First of all, I’m not sure I think about it that way. you know, that arc over the last 25 years or so I’m not sure I would have defined it as one that had a lot of change in it. So maybe we can dig into that  


Brett Bartholomew  7:42  

let’s dig into that. 


Victor Hall  7:42  

Yeah, at one point. But just laying out kind of the facts of it. I grew up in a small town on a farm. And so from a strength coach performance standpoint, I knew nothing about it. But liked athletics and was a meathead, bodybuilder type. So it seemed natural that I would just continue to go down that path, playing sports working out and found strength and conditioning by accident. You know, in a small school of about 500 Kids, there is no strength and conditioning coach. And a lot of you know, the old timers have that same experience. Yeah. But maybe that’s where the first started was just as a no nothing kid that like to work out. And 25 years later, yeah. 20 probably over 20 moves between my wife and I in career probably Yeah. Like


Brett Bartholomew  8:34  

just all like some of those for school, all those for jobs, some of them for love. What were they?


Victor Hall  8:41  

Little bit of both. My wife and I have been together for over 21 years is how long we’ve been married, but we dated for a long time. So we’ve known each other longer than we haven’t. And so it’s been a journey together, for sure. But yeah, sometimes moving for work, sometimes just moving from one house to the next as our family grew or our tastes changed, or whatever it was. But I guess the interesting part there is, as a strength coach went through the traditional pathway, which was internship at a division one, college, check that box, go to grad school, check that box. From there, I thought for sure I had everything I needed. I had a shaved head and a goatee. So I was good to go. It’s sending out my resume to everywhere in Southern California. We were in Northern California at that time, and was expecting something and got nothing. And so from there, I guess that was the first change, thinking I’ll be a collegiate strength and conditioning coach. And that turned into private sector. From there haven’t really left the private sector. They say but lots of changes even from there, whether it was from location, and then eventually ended up with the organization. I am now Working with Exos that started in the tactical environment on a military contract on the East Coast. I guess that was a change. And then eventually got me back into one of our facilities in San Diego, perhaps another change, and then more recently, not coaching day to day, and supporting our coaches, our facilities, making sure they have everything that they need operationally programming process related. So there you go. 


Brett Bartholomew  10:24  

I mean, sounds like a lot of change relatives, but I’m gonna give you that because it’s all perceptual, right, in terms of how people see it. Now, one thread I do want to pull on, though, is, and whatever term you want to use here, it’s not just the places you’ve been, but it’s the people you’ve managed, right? You mentioned tactical, you mentioned, the various places you were at professionally, you know, we have a wide ranging audience. And I’m somebody and most of our listeners would agree that while there are always differences between people and contexts, some of the basic principles of what it takes to connect with them build trust, maybe reduce some of the friction, when new folks come in and are more similar than they’re not has that been, broadly your experience and feel free to fire back? If you’re like, No, they’ve all been radically different, no common threads. But what has that been like when you went from right? Whether you coach kids, to the tactical setting, to now coaches in their careers, talk to me about some of the things that you felt like came natural to you, that you still are trying to navigate. And if you felt like there were principles that guide those as a whole? And it’s a lot of questions take you where you want.


Victor Hall  11:28  

Yeah, there’s probably more things that did not feel natural than did. But the foundation of whether I was coaching or managing was really just based around my passion for the industry, and being a strength coach, and improving somebody’s performance. And so as a coach, then I go into all those scenarios where I’m actually coaching, you know, teaching somebody back squat, or coaching through a personal conflict at work. You know, so maybe there’s a common thread there. But yeah, across the board, the techniques and and tactics change a lot.


Brett Bartholomew  12:14  

And what do you find work on you, like, if you turn the tables, and you know, let’s say you’re being managed, or you’re being coached, you’re being led? What are some things that you really appreciate? And somebody that works collaboratively with you in that, and it doesn’t matter if they’re appear or superior or anything like that, but what’s the candidate key to unlock you in that context?


Victor Hall  12:36  

I think probably that my favorite moments with other leaders or my own managers are when I get the real deal, so candid feedback, as candid as possible. And also, acknowledging areas that doing well. Okay. If I wanted to dissect that a little bit, it might be the fact that I’m looking at it very mechanically. Like you take apart a clock radio, and you see how all the parts work. Yeah. And so there, I think, in a way, I address my own performance the same way. And so I want to know exactly what I need to work on. I have no feelings involved. And I just want to improve on areas that need it. And also know where to emphasize strengths.


Brett Bartholomew  13:36  

direct, straightforward, no nonsense. Maybe these terms won’t make sense. But in the past, we had talked about four kinds of conversational styles. And you and I know there’s a lot more, there’s a lot of complex and nuanced here, but it helps to have mental models to kind of orient, yeah, I’m gonna list off some names or terms related to conversational styles. Let me know which ones you feel like describe you or that you associate with if you don’t mind and elaborate on any of them. Right. 


The analyst analyst is somebody as you would imagine, who likes to deep very detail oriented at times can be black and white, not in terms of their life view. Right. But they appreciate details, facts, logic, all those things. Pretty straightforward on that one. Yeah. Okay. The realist, no nonsense, you know, they have this personal oriented aspect to them, and that they want people to not necessarily like them, but you know, they want to relate at the same time, they’re not gonna give it to you in some kind of fluffy way. Like, this is what it is, this is what it isn’t. Right. But they have a little bit more social agility than a pure analyst, if you will. All right. If we think of this in quadrants, and the analysts on one point at the bottom, maybe that realists at the top in that same kind of sphere, and on the other end, you have like the relator, more of a visionary storytelling, right? They’re gonna get people excited and probably a little bit more of a excitable personality. have that and then underneath them, you’d have almost this pure Empath, right the direct opposite of an analyst and the analyst is wants to know the facts. That Empath wants to know your feelings. So out of that empathizer Empath, relator realist analyst, where do you feel like if any, you fit for


Victor Hall  15:17  

Me or what I prefer? 


Brett Bartholomew  15:19  

We’re gonna go both. 


Victor Hall  15:20  

Okay. I’m definitely analyst and probably a relator. 


Brett Bartholomew  15:27  



Victor Hall  15:29  

It might depend on the environment. But default analyst, but enjoy being more charismatic when, you know, the time requires,. What I prefer analyst realist as far as managing or leading myself. The people that I enjoy being around the most, this is just, you know, who I would put in my circle? A relator. 


Brett Bartholomew  16:02  

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That makes it there. Why don’t want to say that makes sense. That’s presumptuous. Why do you think that is? 


Victor Hall  16:08  

Which one 


Brett Bartholomew  16:09  

The last part of the people that you enjoy having in your circle the most? I like how you broke that down. By the way, I think that’s a good thing for the listeners to stop and think about, what are you? And of course we know, folks, it depends on the context. But generally, where do you default? Because we do have defaults. What do you prefer when you’re being led, coached, manage, choose whichever term you want? And then also, in the other context, let’s call it a recreational context? If we can, would that be appropriate just for the what is your network comprised of? I like that. Would you mind elaborating on why you think that might be? Why do you want relators? around you? And that kind of context?


Victor Hall  16:46  

I hadn’t really thought about it. But you know, even if I just look back at how I answered the question, it’s a gap in my own attributes, but it’s one that I highly regard envious of, in some regards 


Brett Bartholomew  17:02  



Victor Hall  17:04  

Well, I think it related, particularly the way that you described, it, is someone that has a high amount of charisma, and draws people to them. And so, as a coach, and as a leader, you hope to be able to flex those muscles once in a while. But I also see those folks that are like that, really excel in that area coaching and leading, it doesn’t mean it’s the full picture, right? But in a lot of ways, I’ll often steal from those people in my early coaching career, 


Brett Bartholomew  17:40  

Mainly because you just felt like what was there any of that and I’m gonna project and experience of an attendee at one point in time, who said something similar, who said, as an analyst or more of an analytical communicator, one of the things they can get trapped in is kind of their own head. In some respects, I’ll start dissecting and dissecting, you know, everything just kind of gets pulled and stripped apart. And the look for precision, they want to be incisive. But then all of a sudden, somebody that might be more of a relator will say, something quirky, quixotic or just sticky. And they’re like, Well, screw you, you know, like, boom, that stuck.


Is there any of that you ever find yourself getting? Because as long as I’ve known you, you, I mean, I think like any of us, right? There’s things that we internalize, but you’ve never seen like somebody that is stuck in their own head or can’t kind of both nimbly go into the weeds, but still zoom out big picture. What do you think that is? Or why? Why is that? Would that relate to your experience at all? 


Victor Hall  18:43  

Both of those examples would, since you and I have known each other you’ve seen  the version 3.0 Probably, have, you know, Coach Hall,  that can turn it on when he needs to. But it’s also the same person that when my wife watched me do a field trip with my kids one day at work, she said, Who was that she had not recognized that person. And so you have these versions of yourself. And so the relator version of myself that can be perhaps more charismatic, and draw people in is one that I’ve worked on over the years.


Brett Bartholomew  19:24  

Alright, some exciting news for you Effective immediately, we now offer military first responder and student discounts for all of our live events at art of coaching. I want to be clear, this isn’t part of some sale, or some summer promotional program, or any kind of Christmas in July. This is permanent, point blank. We’re trying to make it Excuse Proof for you to find ways to get better as a leader, as a coach, as somebody that deals with indirect people. The most important thing any of us can be skilled at so as a military member or first responder, you can get a discount of 10% off and as a student you You can get 40% Off 40% Off. There’s nobody offering this kind of competitive pricing for the kind of value and deep diving we provide. Don’t believe me, try us go to Now to claim your discount, and we look forward to seeing you soon. 


This episode of The Art of coaching podcast is sponsored by Better Help. Think about how much time you spend on yourself in a given week, versus how much time you spend on other people and being able to balance the two. I know for me trying to do that, while also recently managing a cross country move. And all these deadlines. It’s something that I always struggle with. Frankly, I always get caught up in what everybody else needs, for me my own expectations of myself. And sometimes I don’t really take a second to reflect and think, hey, there’s a fine line between giving yourself grace and holding yourself accountable. And by and large, I’m somebody that doesn’t really struggle with holding myself accountable. I do struggle with turning off sometimes I do struggle with giving myself grace, I do struggle if I feel like oh, I didn’t state that perfectly. Or I could have done this better. And like I right now, frankly, I struggle with even thinking about which version of a chapter that I wrote for my next book is best. It’s a nonstop worry cycle that sometimes you and me need to get out of. So if you’re somebody that is thinking about improving your mental health, and you’ve ever thought about starting therapy, make sure you get Better Help a try, we all need a coach, we all need somebody that can guide us through a lot of different processes. And while true balance doesn’t exist, help does and reliable help at that, and you can get 10% off your first month by going to better help. That is h e l p Again, this is 10% off your first month to be able to give back to yourself and talk to a licensed professional go to better help h e l Now


Victor Hall  22:06  

she had not recognized that person. And so you have these versions of yourself. And so the relator version of myself that can be perhaps more charismatic, and draw people in is one that I’ve worked on over the years. Mostly stealing from people like you particularly young in my career. And so that was not a natural attribute that I had, you wouldn’t have seen me as a coach or a leader or a manager in the first six or seven years while I was at it. And think there’s a relator. But fast forward 20 years, my wife is watching me, Coach a bunch of 10 year olds through an obstacle course. And she would have thought that’s a relator. But still didn’t recognize her. Yeah. And so it’s been an evolution. And so perhaps then one of the reasons that I enjoy spending time with people like yourself, Rhett Larson, Brent Callaway, these are people that just are not even thinking about it, and are pure charisma. I’m picking up little things here and there. And I don’t know if it’s like full on faking. But it unlock something that it feels more natural for me.  And over the years through practice probably fall on my face a little bit and flexing back to what feels more natural. You see what you have today? Which is to your point, you wouldn’t have thought that. But if you would have known 21 year old coach Hall, you might have


Brett Bartholomew  23:35  

Yeah, well, you bring up a point that makes me think of like, a massive imperfection in myself instance, this is a conversation if I can go here, maybe draw something out. I think one reason I tend to default to when I’m coaching, teaching leading others, I’m a realist. relator right. I’m gonna I try to say I’m the most respectful kick in the ass you’re gonna know. But also make you laugh or throw some quirky things in there a little bit of a weirdo. And I wonder sometimes if that’s because there are certain contexts I just I didn’t feel that smart. It like in school in particular, right? I remember even just going back to math, and I don’t really, you know, I know we like to say left brain, right brain, obviously nobody just that it’s not that black and white. But I just always struggled when teachers didn’t put things in in a variety of ways that you could grasp. Right? There was a lot of math Well, that’s just the rule. That’s just why you did it. And I remember what go back in the back of the book and see what the answer is and try to deconstruct it, but I’ve never really been able to accept it. Well, that’s just the way it is. Like I always wanted and it’s not like I need some long in depth version of start with why I just want you to make it a little bit more applicable. Now on the other end, and I think this is the realest part of me. I also abhor I have a strong distaste for books, especially leadership or coaching books, that it’s nothing but stories and parables or whatever. Like I think there’s a point where it’s just like, oh my god, you know, I mean, can we just can we get a little bit more tactical here. And so there’s this part of me that really, I feel like alright, I need things explained, I need to see them, I need to touch them. I need to have an experience with this. But at the same time, I only need to do that so much where I want to zoom big picture. But I just think, I wonder sometimes if I tried to fill that hole of teachers, I wish I would have had, that we could self analyze all day. But yeah, it’s just something I think about. And I wonder, have you had other than the folks that you in your words, tried to steal or borrow from? Did you have a lot of relators in your life growing up? Like whether as your father or your mother? Or was there a good teacher or coach or an influential figure in your life that have that are no,


Victor Hall  25:40  

ot really not one that stands out? And definitely not one that I was thoughtful about? I think nowadays, whether it’s leadership, communication, coaching, management, I’m really passionate about I think about it all the time. And I want to be as good as I possibly can. That overall approach of be my own best? I don’t know exactly when that happened. But it probably didn’t happen till I was in my 30s. Really. And so you know, even now thinking back, was I? Did someone make an impression on me at a young age? Perhaps, I wouldn’t have noticed back then. Because I was definitely just happy to float along the universe, check the box go with the flow had no major ambition. And so that came much later. 


Brett Bartholomew  26:32  

Do you think this kind of stuff can even be taught? Let’s say that version of you was open or receptive to it, then do you think it can be taught? Like in terms of, I mean, we’ve heard every amount of pushback you can imagine, over the years in terms of certain people that I think when you contemplate why people resist change, just broadly, right? We know that there’s fear of the unknown, loss of power control, saving face, whatever that might be, the change might be occurring too fast, they might feel that as a threat and something else. But I remember certain coaches in particular, saying, you know, I have 100 athletes, I have to manage a day, there’s no way that I can sit here and, alter this communication style, do that do this, which was always odd to me. Because I’ve seen, you know, my mother worked in government. And we know that they’re CEOs and directors that have to do that for conglomerates. But I mean, just straight up, do you think it can be taught? And if so, why is it so damn hard, then like, what barriers do you think we have to break through? And if not, just, why not? Why can’t it be taught? Why is it static and fixed?


Victor Hall  27:39  

For communication? 


Brett Bartholomew  27:41  

Yeah, just being in that being able to even just analyze like, okay, paying attention and having this awareness, whether it’s of those conversational styles, whether it’s of anything, because you said you’re fascinated with leadership and management, right, and I am too, right bias there. I think what was a big trigger for me, and all this is realizing, when I read the definition, a lot of research like that clearly says it is a social activity that happens with social beings and social environments, therefore is underpinned by communication. And I thought, why the hell does nobody go down the rabbit hole with this? You know, and and there were some of those things in the research, there was like, some people, because it’s not, there’s not a purely objective way to measure it, prowess or deafness in that, or that there’s subjectivity in that which if we’re being literal, there’s subjectivity and everything in life, a Van Gogh painting, in somebody’s performance increase, does that increase even in that way? Ev1en if that was objective, actually transfer, so on and so forth. So I just wonder what you think about that, in general? Like, is it something that people can learn? And if so, like, what needs to happen to, for people to actually increase that awareness? Does it have to be like the Irish Potato Famine, where people like, start getting more open minded about something because it was alright, now? Now I’ve lost a relationship, or I didn’t get the results I wanted or my reputation damage? Yep. Now I should start paying attention to, to all this or? 


Victor Hall  29:08  

Yeah. Generally, yeah, it can be taught, I believe it can be taught. Maybe another way to look at it also is that it can be uncovered and expanded on. So if there are some underlying skills, or even just intentions, beliefs, purpose, etc. That is not there, then maybe it can’t be taught. You definitely have to be a willing student to learn the lesson. But I think I’m a good example of all of that. You know, as I sat in, through my freshman year in college, the chairman, the chair of the Physical Education Department, was my advisor. And it wasn’t till my sophomore year that I even knew what strength and conditioning was. So I found out, I go to him and I say, I want to be a strength conditioning coach, how can I do that within this physical, physical education department? And he said, Well, you know, there are ways that you You could probably look at internships etc. And we could emphasize this course over that course. However, Victor, I gotta tell you, you should not go down this road, this is not for you. And, you know, I’ve played that conversation a million times in my head of why he might have said that, why his advice as my advisor was to not do what I would end up being pretty good at, and loving. It was because then he didn’t see what I guess nobody saw, I didn’t really see it myself. Which was, there was something in there that could be social, like a relator. Charisma, a commanding presence. But that didn’t exist in the freshmen who sat in the back of the class, and was afraid to announce their name on the first day shy and introverted is where I grew up, being very comfortable. And so that’s what he saw. So I don’t blame him, right? For trying to, you know, protect me from myself. he just didn’t see all of it and truthfully, near to die. So again, coming back to, can it be taught? Yeah, I mean, what you see in front of you today is taught.


Brett Bartholomew  31:20  

So with that, and bear with me, as I try to kind of make sure that this is clear, there’s a little bit of coloring it. You mentioned a couple of times shy, introverted, and we’re going to get into how do you go about leading and managing folks, when you identify as somebody that’s introverted and shy in a moment, but just real quick, when we look at like a behavior or trait, and I’m genuinely curious about this, right, a trait, as you know, is like, alright, we’re kind of born with this, whether that’s baked into our DNA, a lot like like a Steven Pinker or whatever, or whatever, it’s the nature piece, a behavior is something that selectively deployed. So an example we give in our workshops is even if you look at something like narcissism, right? Well narcissism can is typically going to this is on a spectrum, much like any trade, we need some people that selectively deployed narcissism, otherwise, the Olympics would be really boring to watch, nobody would think that the fastest person in the world, nobody would want to take on a tough leadership position, because they wouldn’t think they’re capable of saving a company or running the country or whatever. Right? It’s, a problem when that static and somebody demonstrates or deploys narcissistic traits over a wide swath of activities or contacts. Would you say that shyness, or introversion or whichever term you want to use, was that more something that like, was it a learned behavior? Or is that something that is just kind of inveterate to you? And you feel like, you’ve always kind of been like that in a wide variety of contexts. Now, this is early Victor. 


Victor Hall  32:55  

Well, that’s even current Victor. Okay, in some scenarios, too. But yeah, it felt very natural always been that way. It’s kind of my point around my wife, who I’ve known for over 26 years, not recognizing the coach in front of 40 little kids.  So, yeah, it’s more natural for me to be introverted and shy.


Brett Bartholomew  33:15  

So then, was that reinforced in any way was there a family thing to where that was either reinforced rewarded, I mean, you know, this ties back into strength conditioning, and many other industries have this. I found that when I got out of that industry, it took me a while to reverse certain behaviors that were a virtue in s&c, but were a vise in other contexts in which I was trying to operate. And a lot of that was almost kind of, I would view it in some senses as this extreme humility, this exemplification of, we almost were so proud. And it’s not about me, that it was it’s almost like somebody that you know, with four PhDs standing in front of the room and saying, I’m the dumbest guy in the room, right? And I’ll just never forget, when a friend of mine said, you say you want to help people, but you’re scared to put your name or face in front of a product. And I said, I’m not somebody that’s a know at all. And he says, Well, why do you perceive it that way? And I thought, like, wow, that’s been some of my conditioning. I just remember people saying, Don’t do this. Because it’s been said before, it’s been done before. It’s not about you. Now, I also have accountability of how I internalize that. But there was a pervasive culture of those things in the industry as a whole. So I wonder like, Was any of that whether it was mentors in the industry, family figures, because there’s somebody listening right now that identifies with this, like, yeah, I’ve thought about this too. And I want them to be able to see themselves through you, and then hear a little bit more about how you’ve worked through that.


Victor Hall  33:15  

Yeah, I don’t know if it was reinforced or instilled to be shy. It just always kind of felt like that was who I was. There could be a number of psychological underpinnings there, but I’m not aware of them. If they are but I’ve just always been that way. My kids are the same way now. And I think it is natural enough of a thing that whether it’s reinforced or not, it’s not going away? There was just one time I was coaching a group of like six or seven kids 10 to 14 years old. And there was one kid was called Timmy in the group. That was I could also tell shy and you know, now here I am a 29 year old coach who’s broken out of the shell a little bit, and saw like little Viktor, and Timmy. And it’s like, Man, I’m gonna do something to like, wake this kid up. It would have been great if I would have had that type of thing. 


So we wrap up the session. We bring everybody else in, and it was the last session of the week. And it was basically what do you do for the weekend? And everybody went around the group, Tim, who’s the last person to chime in what he was doing. And he was talking very quietly, and I could barely hear him. I was like, Okay, here’s my shot. Yeah. Timmy. When you’re in a group, you got to project your voice. So we can all hear you because we want to know what you’re doing. And so are you still high pitch and little louder? is like, Oh, that’s not what I shouldn’t put like, No, I think I invented this before you did say from your chest, Tim. You know, the whole thing. Yeah. And he got a little louder. But I could tell he was uncomfortable. And it is what it is. It’s okay that he’s uncomfortable. And that’s what I was thinking, patting myself on the back. Good job. You just gave this kid a life lesson that he will be forever in your debt. about 30 minutes later, we get a phone call. The phone call was from Tim his mom. Timmy couldn’t stop crying his entire ride home. And that hit me so hard. Because here I was patting myself on the back for trying to take the stripes off Timmy. And zebras don’t change his stripes. And so I don’t know what the underpinnings are. Was I reinforced to be shy? What I’ve stopped doing is trying to make Timmy. Someone who’s not. In a situation like that. And so fast forward, even my own children now who are shy. It doesn’t mean that I’m always going to do the things for them. Because they’re too shy to, I don’t know, make their own order at a restaurant. That’s how I was when I was little. I had my mom make my all my phone calls. If I had like call for a school project of business, a local business. Mom, can you call? I was that shy? 


Brett Bartholomew  37:56  

And it wasn’t a fear of rejection or anything like that. It was just 


Victor Hall  37:59  

No, I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know what it was. I’m sure someone could. Sure. 


Brett Bartholomew  38:03  

Yeah, let’s do it on the show. 


Victor Hall  38:04  

Yeah, go through all the analysis. But the point of the whole story is that I feel like it’s so natural that you can’t really train yourself out of it. And so even for myself, what I’ve learned to do is embrace it. Turn it into a little bit of a strength where it can be used as one, while also tapping into the other areas of being a relator. Having charisma, having a commanding presence. That feels natural for me.


Brett Bartholomew  38:36  

Yeah, I mean, that’s social agility. Right. And the core point that I hope everybody heard there is I people forget effective leadership. And however people want to define this. What it is not is trying to just make somebody fit a mold. You know, that’s, again, I want to admit my bias here. It’s what I’m attempting to make my next book about is this end of one size fits all leadership. But look what it does to people, you know, and I think even when people come to our speaker school or something like that, one guy was like, I don’t want to come because I’m not a great speaker. And I’m like, man, like we have people here that have social anxiety. We have people here that have done this for years, like we’re the Island of Misfit Toys, and we don’t want to, and even when we get there, like there’s a reason we don’t teach the same kind of stuff you’d hear at probably a lot of other workshops because we’re not trying to make you a robot you want just like you do with leadership. You want that person do whatever they are to be amplified. That’s why people have different drives and conversational styles and archetypes and what have you. 


Now then my follow up question to that is, how did you work through that as a leader because I think there is a lot of messaging out there in pop culture, or just whatever colloquially that if you are introverted and I know Susan Cain said, Hey, I made headway into this with her book quiet, but by and large, we still associate people that are introverted, like not a lot of people see them as leaders, right? Not all the time. I think a more educated crowd does we understand that people that they choose their words, they never regret the thing that they didn’t say. Right. So I understand that there’s a subset there. But you know what I mean? Inherently, it almost seems like to the average Joe or Jane, that if somebody is introverted, they may face more obstacles breaking through to other people. Do you think that’s even true? And if so, could you share some tips on how you work through that going from somebody who had to have their mom make their calls, to now having to deal with conflict, difficult discussions? You’re here, you can’t run from that ever? And you can’t worry about being liked when you’re doing it?


Victor Hall  40:34  

Yeah. I mean, some of it just comes with experience. And so, you know, having gone through a lot of those situations early on, builds confidence that had been down the road before. So, you know, I don’t know had my mom forced me to make my own phone calls, maybe I could have done it by the time I was 18 versus 35. So there is that kind of breaking inertia and getting momentum, and confidence. And it becomes easier each future time that you have to do something like that? Is it true that introverts and shy people have greater challenges, maybe it depends on probably the culture environment you’re in. And if I was in a culture, or an organization, that was primarily built on grandiose presentations, and personalities, it might be hard for me to break through. But even now, I’m in a pretty mixed bag of leadership styles. So it can be pretty easy for me to navigate through there. But that still doesn’t mean I haven’t had to become less introverted when needed. 


Brett Bartholomew  41:52  

But that’s why would you mind and it’s fine. If you have to fabricate parts of it just for the sake of obviously maintaining privacy or anything like that? Is there a case study or anything in particular, where maybe you felt that old you pulling you back in where you know, you the context necessitated that you dealt with something directly, or you had to amplify a certain part of your personality? Choose your path, right? And whether it was in the midst of it, or right before it, that all those old tendencies were pulling at you? Is there anything that you can think of? And I know I’m putting you on the spot, but I think just trying to help give again, anybody listening that feels like, oh, yeah, I got to have this conversation tomorrow in a week. And I really don’t want to do it. Anything that you can think of.


Victor Hall  42:39  

At this point, no, I’m very comfortable in the agility side of it now. And truthfully, I don’t think I’ve ever felt like reverting back. I’ve only been dreadfully aware of when I needed to amplify it in another area where it was a drawback. And so those moments stick out in my mind. I had gone through a year long leadership course. This is probably 15 years ago. As a cohort of about 15 other young business professionals, and the company I was working for sponsor me to go into the leadership course it was an awesome course. And one of it included a an off site retreat. So we all go into this like mountain cabin. And we’re bunked up. And at this point, we’re like three months into the course. So we all know each other’s name. And I’ve mostly just done it remotely to that point, we had not really met in person yet. But regardless, it wasn’t like our first day together. And the owner and main leader of the leader course, call me by the wrong first name three times. It was Vince Hector Vance.


Brett Bartholomew  44:01  

Vance, you definitely looked like advance, wait till people see your mug shot, 


Victor Hall  44:05  

I’ll take them all. But, you know, thinking through that, even at the time, I had to own that. Because what I had been doing is old Viktor, which is staying in the shadows, they in the background, few little comments here and there. And when I got my opportunity, it was still relatively soft and perhaps, you know, underscored what I might have had passionate about, even in my interactions with the group. And so from there, that moment alone, I vowed to never have such a small initial impression that someone couldn’t remember my name. Especially one like Victor, like how many pictures do you know? 


Brett Bartholomew  44:52  

Yeah, yeah, not a lot. Not a lot. It’s valid. I mean, were there things so what did you do and in terms of anybody that’s listening, that’s thinking alright, Well then give me an example of how you modified the impression you met. Because we know Look, somebody in the eye from handshakes, speak clearly. Are there any other things that you do? And again, all this stuff depends on context. But just give me any example that you can about when you go in to have to make an impression like, what are some of the things you think about?


Victor Hall  45:17  

I don’t know, at this point that it’s, like actually conscious thought. But what I, if I was watching myself in those scenarios, what I’m probably doing is right away trying to find common ground. Oh, you’re from Northern California, but we’re in Northern California, because I’m from the real Northern California. So it may spark something like that. And then it’s going to be some type of question, I’m gonna ask a lot of questions. And that turns me to an active listener. And I think in a lot of ways, it uses what I’m strong at, which is analytics, and creating more of a one on one type scenario. So if it were, I’ve got to make 20 People remember my name, I might still struggle with that one. But if it’s the one person that I can throw a little jab out about Northern California, or something like that, relating to something or asking the follow up question. That’s where I think I could have made better impressions initially now.


Brett Bartholomew  46:20  

Yeah. And it sounds like a good bit of what you do. You’ve gotten to the point where there’s some unconscious competence, it might correct in asserting that a little bit just from hearing what you’ve said throughout it, or do you?


Victor Hall  46:30  

I think so. But if it’s true, then I’m unconscious to it. Well, I hear you’re saying, Yeah, I think you’re right.


Brett Bartholomew  46:35  

I what I’m getting at is one of the things that I’ve come across more and more in the research that I went down when I was like, am I even a good coach? What is a good coach, like just this exhausting Clockwork Orange rabbit hole? It was like? Well, one thing you have to do to really understand that is not just have you know, what is the research, say, or any other KPIs or objectives that are relevant, but like, you actually have to engage in some sort of reflection. But for me, when I read that, I’m like, okay, yeah, let me sit here and say, Why did I do this? And I, cool, that’s fine. We had something called the three stages of internal identification, which is a fancy way of just saying, Why did I do this? Why does that matter to me or whatever. But I think what really woke me up to a lot of things was stuff like this, having to hear having to come up with content, having to reflect and then think Do, I have a framework that I’m unconscious to? Alright, well, now let me try to put that out there, seeing myself on video had being forced into situations where I could no longer just lean on like, well, this is how I do it. I had to explain how I came to that. Have you ever taken the time to really do that? And say, like, hey, Victor, like if you did have to write a book or a chapter in a book or anything like that? A framework for operating on these things? What do you think would be just loosely and for fun? Some things that you find like you think you would expand upon or you’d like to go into the weeds on if you were to write a book or do a podcast or make a presentation tomorrow on your way of doing things? 


Victor Hall  48:03  

Well, one of those chapters would definitely be reflection to your point. So that really, I don’t think I can turn that off. I’m always kind of reflecting and thinking back how something could have been done better. But another part of that now is particularly why I know it’s like a standout moment, or an opportunity. There’s tons and tons of pre Herstal going through in my mind leading up to the point. Even something that most people wouldn’t think about, like just going to get coffee with Stu McMillan. I don’t drink coffee, I drink tea, but when he’s, you know, he’s snobby about his coffee. But before those meetings, this is Stu and I are comfortable each other 


Brett Bartholomew  48:45  

And just real quick for those of you not Stu McMillan is a world class. I’m just going to call him coach because it’s not just track and field. Good friend of ours. Great episode, kind of a wise ass right? I remember my mom was visiting when he was in town and goes who’s that jerk because they don’t know how she didn’t know how we bantered. But great guy, but yes, go on and continue. 


Victor Hall  49:04  

Okay, so this is just a colleague. I’m thinking about the questions I’m gonna ask too. Because I know I’m only going to get a couple and think about how to start the conversation in the conversation before I’m even there. 


Brett Bartholomew  49:17  



Victor Hall  49:17  

Yeah. Oh, yeah.


Brett Bartholomew  49:19  

What if he what I mean what if he does what Stu does and so many other people aren’t just I mean, there was a million irrelevant things that he just he loves to say how much I talked on our episode he forgot it was a conversation but he started talking about this and then what whatever but what if somebody throws you through like this conversation right? You didn’t I didn’t give you questions 


Victor Hall  49:36  

Doesn’t mean I didn’t think about it. 


Brett Bartholomew  49:38  

Well, that’s what I’m saying. What did you think about


Victor Hall  49:41  

I play it through in my head a lot, you know, standout moments and opportunities about how I might want it to go. Key things I might want to touch on ways to to walk in the door and say hello. So I don’t know how you know how that comes across. Like if Some manipulative or not, but it’s definitely an act of thought process that I have in going to situations that might require a ton of ad libbing. I’m trying to remove as much as possible. 


Brett Bartholomew  50:11  

Do you think that serves you always? 


Victor Hall  50:13  

Probably not. There’s probably times where it comes off contrived. But there’s probably times where it doesn’t come off, contrived. And no one would know other than shoot now that I thought about that that was rehearsed in my mind before it happened.


Brett Bartholomew  50:30  

You don’t know what kind of weird questions I have in the tank still? You know? No, I appreciate that. You say that? And if it is manipulative, good on you, I think anybody and I encourage all of you listening to do this, open your phones, look at the definition of manipulate it means to wield something skillfully. We manipulate things all the time, you should manipulate conversations, right? And then people always want some kind of disclaimer, I have to do this heavy in the book right now about ethics. You know, and the reality is, is you can put as many disclaimers out there about ethics as you want. If somebody doesn’t wield a tool, if they’re not an ethical person, you talking to them about ethics isn’t going to make them ethical, right. But whether it’s manipulation, influence, power, persuasion, those are tools, you know, they’re tools, I think, when it doesn’t serve you as when, like you said, Some of things just come with experience. And if we manipulate situations so much that we never relinquish control, in a way that it robs us of having dense and diverse experiences, then that creates problems. And we see this even with a classic case study of this, and you wouldn’t mind me saying this good friend of mine collegiate strength coach came to one of our apprenticeships. And we do both serious, real roleplay. And we’ve changed a lot since our mutual friend Giovanni came where it’s very conflict ridden real world, what are you going to do to improv, like true adapted theatrical games. So we have done some adapted improv with them. And it mainly is meant to encourage divergent thinking. And it’s a way to get better at very direct aspects of communication in an indirect way, much like strength training, right? A squat does not look like somebody sprinting 15 yards, but there’s indirect elements that transfer. 


And I remember, I mean, almost walked out. And it was very what I thought was uncharacteristic of him. Now, he was going through some major life changes. And that’s not the point of this episode. But he said, I don’t like how I’m coming across right now. And this is very uncharacteristic. But we’re all sitting there saying like, yeah, that’s what you’re supposed to do. Right? Right. Like we talk a lot about adapting and evolving, those things don’t happen if every stimulus is planned for. Right. And so I just think that’s an interesting, like, at this point, your career?  How do you think you would respond? If you go into something where it’s a complete one, like right now, if I ask you something that’s a complete 180? Or you’re like, Well, I don’t know how this is going to be perceived. If peers or whatever listening? Do you start calculating that? How do you address it, you just avoid those in totality? Because I know it took me a while to get you on the show.


Victor Hall  53:01  

Yeah, that wasn’t really because I was hesitant to be uncomfortable. 


Brett Bartholomew  53:08  

Okay. We just had made a big time yet. The check hadn’t cleared? 


Victor Hall  53:13  

Not quite Yeah, I think it actually comes back to in knowing myself. Yeah. But in that way, I would just be myself, if it was a situation where it’s a total 180. And I’m truly adapting. I’m also, you know, pretty, I guess you would call narcissistic, I’m pretty confident in my abilities, and just about anything that I put myself into. And so I wouldn’t stress about that having to be agile, I would reflect about it a lot afterwards. And think, could I have done that better? But in the moment, I’m not calculating I’m just be myself at this point.


Brett Bartholomew  53:55  

Right? I can’t wait to have you had an apprenticeship where we playing gibberish. And literally, to work on tonal shifts. You have to have a conversation and completely nonsensical sounds. But you know, in the snap of a finger go happy, sad, angry, you know, agreeable all that. I can’t wait to hear that.


Victor Hall  54:14  

Yeah, it sounds like dinner last night. Oh. I would not be good at the quote unquote good at that. But it would be good practice for me, knowing you know that I rely a lot on planning and reflection. So I would welcome that. 


Brett Bartholomew  54:30  

Yeah, it’s a form of scenario planning. Right. This is something that I was surprised. I don’t know. I mean, I know you are a font of knowledge. But I was really surprised when time when I was reading, that companies like Royal Dutch Shell will literally have people on salary. That’s all they do is plan for and futures possible futures 15 20 50 years from now. And as you know, it can’t be done. Nobody saw the Russian I mean, some people would say, well, the Russia Ukraine thing we knew because it’s almost like tiny China. In Taiwan, but by and large, nobody knew the date or all the impacts was gonna have nobody foresaw COVID In particular, even if people try to say, Well, Bill Gates said a pandemic, nobody knows what exactly the price of wheat or oil or any of these things are going to be tomorrow. But it’s like, Well, one way you can prepare for uncertainty is like, what do we know? We know there’s socio economic changes, that there’s geopolitical things are now that it’s gaming it out. So I was going to ask that in any part of your management or leadership journey, have you utilize any kind of role playing gaming it out? Putting people in scenarios? Did anybody ever do that with you? If so, did you find it valuable? Your thoughts on that? Because a lot of people today don’t learn from experience the same way? We did. There’s a lot of jobs that don’t necessitate that. In the same way. Is that clear? What I’m saying like clear,


Victor Hall  55:47  

I’ve done some of that formerly, with like sales training. Yeah, even as a coach went through that process. And even though it was really uncomfortable in the beginning, and I and I rejected it a lot down the road, as maybe one of my changes, is having business acumen. And then taking on a business role within an organization, which a farm boy that, you know, can’t make a phone call to a local business, you would think How the heck did that happen, and one that didn’t like sales training. So I’ve done roleplay before, and at the time, definitely didn’t like it, but didn’t like the the intent, didn’t want to sell. I see its value is really effective, and I think would be good to roleplay skills that need practice. So I see it that way. I haven’t done it, per se, as with a specific example, in management or leadership, other than I wouldn’t call it roleplay. But there’s definitely discussions of what if. And so that’s kind of a roleplay. Meaning let’s talk through different scenarios that haven’t happened yet. Which ones are more favorable than others? Which ones might you want? What would you have to do? Pre and post each scenario? And it’s a way to create strategy to move forward with Yeah, is to kind of go through the options, the pros and cons of all these different scenarios. So it’s not roleplay per se, but it’s perhaps, you know, like, you’re thinking through it like one? 


Brett Bartholomew  57:21  

Well, a lot of that is the first strategy of that, right? Like it is because there’s theoretical, and they are experiential. So let’s talk about it. How would we go through this, but what’s amazing, and as you know, people become pretty miserable at managing, I don’t think we can ever control our emotions. So I have to self edit, when I say that, managing our emotions, or just things that seem like good strategy. In in theory, once you put them in practice, you’re like, I wasn’t expecting that. I wonder, why did you associate roleplay? I know, it sounds like it was your primary experience was sales. Why do you think? Let me rephrase this question another way? Why did you reject it? One? Because you said you didn’t like the way it made you feel? But it sounds like there might have been an association with it, too. Do you view sales as slimy? schemee? Do you view that as something inherently detached from being a coach or a leader?


Victor Hall  58:12  

No, not now. But then I did detach from being a coach, you know, focused on the physical elements, not really seeing the value of being able to sell, whether it’s a three month package, or the need to do this heavy back squat said. You know, I think about it differently now, but then rejected it mostly because didn’t want anything to do with that. And, because I saw it is not relevant to my job as a coach.


Brett Bartholomew  58:45  

So how do you imagine in your job as a coach, in any example you want to give, if somebody didn’t want to do what you wanted them to do? Or you needed them to change how they were doing it? And there was resistance, which is an inherent part of human nature, right? How did you approach it? And what term would you have given that


Victor Hall  59:06  

influence persuasion, things like that? The sales that really was the roleplay for sales, the back then, really was on the transactional elements of money. Exactly. What are you looking for? Here’s how we can do it. And what’s your timeline? Here’s how much it costs. You want to do it. So it was, you know, that typical sales process. And I wanted nothing to do with that. I wanted to just go coach,


Brett Bartholomew  59:33  

right? And when you’re talking when you’re trying to deal with somebody in the scenario that I laid out, right, you look at that as the inherent influence that comes with a combination of education, which I mean, again, synonym for sales, we’re trying to sell people on the future result they can’t see, but it was not in a financial context, so to speak. Do you feel like you know, there within that, I gotta decide if this is where I want to pull on. No, I don’t. Let’s do this. So in moments now What kind of moments give you the most pause? As a leader? Now, what is still a difficult scenario or situation? When you find yourself, Oh, when I have to deal with people that think blank? Or if somebody in this kind of scenario, what gives you despite your expertise? What is something that makes you roll your sleeves up now? And if that’s unclear, I’ll give a better example. Yeah,


Victor Hall  1:00:22  

the biggest challenges now from a leadership and management standpoint, are when there are personality conflicts that are influencing the way somebody shows up that’s different than how I know them to be. Perhaps the resentment is involved. There’s disgruntled because of the resentment, and perhaps because of all that they’re negative. And that’s a hardship to turn around. And for me as a manager, and people have developed relationships with these people, as my primary management leadership strategy. As an introvert, by the way, that’s how you do that you just go deep with people one person at a time. That said, it feels like they’ve changed. And that’s tough. Because you know, that’s not the true them. And they’re being influenced by things like resentment, and frustration. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:01:28  

Yeah, it’s hard to overcome. And it leads me and I’m not trying to be this is not a trap question. So I remember talking to somebody, he was one of the world’s leading researchers in behavior change, and it was before the show. And I said, Hey, is there anything that’s off? Like we cannot talk about? Right? And I remember she had said, yeah, don’t ask me what to do if somebody doesn’t want to change. And I said, Okay, well, would you mind elaborating just because I want to make sure I understand that fully. So I don’t accidentally bump into that. And she said, Well, yeah, I just believe if somebody doesn’t want to change, they’re not going to. And it was interesting, because I had to hit the button, and press play based on the time available. But I found myself really struggling with that, on one end, totally get it, right people do, the teacher appears when the student is ready, you alluded to something very similar, if not the same thing at the beginning. On the other end, I don’t know that as leaders, managers, coaches, again, anybody can choose their nomenclature, that we get that privilege of always dealing with people that want to change. And when we look at the definition of power, which is the capacity to enact change, and then influences that ability, like leveraging that power, why would those things exist? If everybody just wanted it? You know what I mean, I really struggled with that. Does that make sense? Like, what are your thoughts on that? And in total,


Victor Hall  1:02:53  

it does make sense. I think I agree with both of you. Yeah. I may agree with her that, yeah, they’re not going to. And so because of that, there may be wasted efforts. And in some situations, you might as well not even go down that road. Yeah, but probably in most situations, you go down the road anyway, because it’s the right road to go down. Even if you know, it’s a losing battle. Because you believe it’s the right thing to do. So it’s a little bit more of a principle based approach that basically says, I’m gonna try to help somebody, even if they don’t want to be helped. but what if I know they don’t want to be helped? Well, it’s my belief that I should always try to help somebody. So almost irrespective of their response, I still do what I do, which is trying to help. So in that way, yeah, you do have to go down the road, even if someone is saying, if they got a big sign they made and said, I don’t want to be helped go away. But if it’s part of my purpose in life to help people, I’m still going to try, even if I know that it’s gonna get knocked down right away. So I still do me, irrespective of the outcome, I think when we start changing our own behaviors of what is natural to ourselves, and we believe is the right thing to do, because of what you think might happen or what, in fact, what might happen. We’re not really being authentic. So from that standpoint, that’s one way to look at it. Now, there’s still like a lot in there, right? Which is, well, in that case, you’re gonna be swimming upstream and probably drown. Sure. Okay. Well, I’m I’m a guy that swims upstream. So here we go. I have to be selective with that decision. so I agree. I acknowledge that on one end, it might be fruitless now Hold on the other side of my mouth that I’m gonna do it anyway. And then as a third layer is when should I do that? Because there’s a lot of energy involved. And it’s going to take a toll on me as well, that might, you know, have ramifications to help someone else that does want help. Yeah. And so, at this point, I don’t do that at work anymore. I do it at home, and within my own family, without even a blink of an eye. Because this, my family is the most important thing. But at work, if someone has demonstrated that level of, I’m not going to be there, then I’ll pick my battles somewhere else probably.


Brett Bartholomew  1:05:42  

Yeah. Well, I liked that you touched on temporal, relational, and situational aspects of that. And I want to be clear, I didn’t fully disagree with her either. I thought it was a heavy thing to get hit with. And for I don’t want to be redundant. But I just remember thinking about this, in the sense that, and there’s so many, as you said, the broad kind of situational relational pieces I’ve had to think about this differently as a business owner, parent, husband, all that coaches, well, that Yeah, I agree, there’s certain people that you just have to have boundaries on, let’s say, in the business context, just to use that person. But like, I don’t want everybody to be a customer of art of coaching. I think early on a big mistake I made is, I was so passionate about a lot of this, because communications played a role in my life that I probably wasn’t even fully aware to, until I synthesize a lot of all this, that I wanted everybody else to, like, realize what it could cost them as well. You know, and I tried to imbue this desire and other people that were probably just fine learning the technical, tactical parts of their trade, and whether or not they were hiding from the more intra personal parts, like, I tried to be like, well, this is silly, you should do this. It’s good. It’s like, No, I don’t want to be for everybody. I’m not going to try and plus it also, just when most business owners out there No, it wouldn’t even be feasible from a marketing perspective. And, and that’s how I set limits on my time have, or we’re going to do YouTube, or we’re going to do this, it’s very hard for me to do a podcast every week, a newsletter every week of this, but I tried to do that to help. And I know I have to do that in a lot of different mediums. Right. But there are limits. 


I think where is interesting is it just takes people a while. And as you alluded to also earlier, it comes with experience to know where to channel that energy, you have to poured some time into people that broke your heart. And I use that, that terminology there. Because that is what it had done to me. If I didn’t get through to somebody. It almost felt like Man, this is so upsetting to me, because I want it more than they seem to. Yet, they came to me in some sense of desperation or darkness. And I really wanted to help. But yeah, it’s just beyond the point. Somebody’s got to and then you mentioned that temporal piece, which I think is valuable, because sometimes coaches will feel like they fail. But you planted that seed. And we’ve all seen that, especially with athletes. And remember, there’s one that you and I would know very well that tried to tell them, Hey, quit maybe flying to Miami every weekend and doing dumb shit. And your hamstring would get better. And after a while, it’s like they learn after maybe you miss a bunch of games for three years in a row. Oh, yeah, maybe I should do that. There are some lessons people just got to learn on their own. And I think the overall message there is you have to be you have to leverage your power and influence that we all have. But you have to have boundaries, right? 


Victor Hall  1:08:33  

Yeah, I think so. And again, in that example, you gave for the hamstring and Miami stupid shit. You’re still going to give that person things to work on for their Hammy. even though you know, that’s gonna get ruined with you know, a night at the club. So you don’t stop doing the thing that you think is right, just because it won’t be received.  especially in the way that you hoped it would be. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:08:57  

And defining why we think that person won’t Well, that’s what I would have loved to ask her is saying, well, there’s a spectrum there. It’s not like being pregnant. You can’t be kind of pregnant. Like you can be within a certain timeframe of your pregnancy, but you’re either pregnant or you’re not pregnant, by enlarge. So it’s like, well, people don’t want to change. Hmm, how do we know they don’t want to and even a lie detector wouldn’t? Well, they display these behaviors, okay, are those behaviors or traits? Now that’s the nerd. What is something that you feel? I know, we’re getting close on time I see your eyes darting. What is something that just even if you know, it’s advice, and we’re big on the multivariate benefit, or the double edged sword of like the dark side in this company, what is something that you know, is a stain, a dent, a dark sided traits, something that you have that you’re like, you know what? It serves me and it serves you in a utilitarian way, right? I don’t mean that in a negative. You know what I’m saying? There’s something that just it is what it is with you And even though it’s a little bit of the dark side of the force in a leaving, you’ve got to go here before the show gets done, you’re not going to control every element of it.


Victor Hall  1:10:16  

There is probably a thread within me that is, goes from sarcasm, to condensation really fast. And sometimes it does serve me in a group setting where I can throw a quick jab at somebody as a way to shut them up. To not well not only shut them up, but elevate my own position. Yeah. And it’s not fair. It’s ugly. done too much. It’s obvious and toxic. I don’t even like doing it at all. But I know that about myself that my sarcasm and competitiveness can turn into cruelty. And in the moment, probably there’s some benefit. I continue to strive not to do it. I was just telling myself the other day, don’t say it. Don’t say it. Don’t say it.


Brett Bartholomew  1:11:27  

But don’t you think you would leak out elsewhere? Like I remember, for example, when I was in high school, I mean, I sweat like crazy, right? I’m one of those guys that I’m not going to smell but I’ll sweat like no. And so I have like hyperhidrosis. So I’m like 15, and I tried that deodorant, or you put it on different parts of your body or whatever. And it’s supposed to, you know, seal up the, what’s the word, I’m looking for sweat glands, but you just ended up sweating more in other parts of your body. So you feel like if you plugged that hole, so to speak, that expression of whatever, not necessarily vitriol or whatever. But sarcasm. What, however, would manifest in some other way?


Victor Hall  1:12:07  

I don’t know.


Brett Bartholomew  1:12:08  

I’ve seen this thing that you’re talking about? 


Victor Hall  1:12:10  

Yeah, I don’t know, to be honest. I would rather just be use sarcasm as a poor form of humor. And have it in there. But I do know that it can turn dark sometimes. And in the moment was helpful


Brett Bartholomew  1:12:31  

Don’t you think by and large though that as a society? So we I shouldn’t say that because you do see this trend of an appreciation for the antihero more? That’s my final question before you get the final word. Do you think that we diminish some of those things a little bit too much, you think that we’ve softened? The rough edges? Whether it’s pop culture heroes, action stars, our idea of what the ideal leader is? At a local global level, whatever, a little too much. Do you think there’s still room for people to have some of those things? The devil on their shoulder?


Victor Hall  1:13:17  

We all live in our own worlds. And so perhaps, you I think you have a larger view that you’re speaking of, I could see where you’re coming from. And in mine, I think we’ve gone the other direction. I think we’ve begun to accept too many vices. And it’s normalized


Brett Bartholomew  1:13:39  

in leadership or cult, just culturally as a whole,


Victor Hall  1:13:42  

mostly leadership, politics. Some levels of cultural social issues, where it’s become accepted to be cruel, just using that example. As a way to, to emphasize the division and solidify your position. So actually see that my view there is that it’s gone too far, 


Brett Bartholomew  1:14:10  

in the political landscape. 


Victor Hall  1:14:12  

And culture. I mean, it’s I feel like it’s pretty fluid through all of society. But again, I have a small lens I have


Brett Bartholomew  1:14:20  

no, no, that’s I mean, it’s totally valid. And I wonder, I mean, there’s research validate this, and sometimes during times of uncertainty, that that does get amplified. And I think we have a tremendous amount of as much as people like to cite history and a variety of circumstances, the amount of change and uncertainty we’ve gone through, even within the last 20 years is unparalleled at the speed in which it’s changed. So it’s just interesting. I know. It’s this very, it’s a deep place. And I remember there’s an author and we’ll probably we’ll try to get him on the show some time where he talked about during times of uncertainty leaders that are not mentally well, and he’s a psychiatrist and analyze my Luther King and Abraham Lincoln and Winston Churchill tend to perform better. And part of that and it’s a while I’m not going to sit here and try to simplify his thesis too much. So I’m just a part of that he posited was people that deal with some darkness within themselves or better to recognize it and others. You know, there’s a reason Neville Chamberlain was not a sympathizer of Hitler, but he was spooned by him. You know, Winston Churchill, on the other hand, who sometimes downed a bottle of champagne by lunch, and had notorious melancholy sniffed that out pretty quickly. Yeah, but of course, we have opposite examples of that, where it’s a spectrum. Yeah, it’s a spectrum of gray. And so now I appreciate 


Victor Hall  1:15:38  

And I see where you’re coming from, which is, the imperfect model is definitely okay. It was just that particular element of leadership. That probably stems from narcissism, but leads into cruelty as a way to make a point and establish some type of position. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:16:01  

Oh, the example that you mentioned, 


Victor Hall  1:16:02  

Right? Yeah. And so you know, even if it’s like, well, you know, it’s part of being imperfect. So, yeah. Should we do more of it? Have we become too, molded in this perfect, quote, unquote, perfect leader? I think generally, I agree with you, it should an imperfect model is okay to build and we should embrace the imperfect model. So you know, it’s not, you know, Wally beef. Right. Yeah. I agree with that.


Brett Bartholomew  1:16:30  

But it’s great. 


Victor Hall  1:16:31  

But there are some things that are probably hard lines for me that I don’t think you are ever wrong. Even if it’s, there was some benefit, I would leave the benefit on the table. If I could just be kind all the time. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:16:44  

Okay. If you could be right. There’s something that keeps you from being that way. 


Victor Hall  1:16:48  

Yeah, I think it’s, you know, human nature,


Brett Bartholomew  1:16:50  

lack of mango margaritas. Alright, final word. This is the thing that you would feel like if you were taking a warm shower tonight, going for a run in bed, you’re like, I wish we would have touched on that. I’m sure there’s a lot. But if there was something and it doesn’t have to be the thing. But if there was something that you really would like to touch on here, your chance,


Victor Hall  1:17:14  

I appreciate that. I don’t know that it would be anything groundbreaking that and we talked about it a lot. But perhaps it comes back to why it took me so long to get on the podcast, okay. I hope it has nothing to do, you don’t think it has anything to do with how much I want to see you succeed as a which, because I do. And it’s not a lack of support. But in this instance, it’s really just perhaps knowing myself, and saving myself from myself for a particular reason. And so part of that is if I get really passionate about something, I’ll go deep. And so this was like early social media, I found myself on social media all the time, either collecting information, which I like to do, it’s one of my strengths, collector of information. I’m a learner. And I also like to debate. And so that mix of things just took so much of my time, that I withdrew completely from any level of engagement on a broader scale in the industry. And I, at that time, embrace the idea of being the best strength coach no one’s ever heard of as almost as a point of pride. And so part of that has been through this journey of knowing myself, you know, where might I go astray? If I did something else, and then having to pull back on other items, then, like, social media, which I’m not really on social media, I’ll troll my friends, and I’ll comment on your stuff. But I don’t have a presence. And that’s for a reason. But the reason is, I don’t think, you know, if I did psychoanalyze myself, it’s not because I’m afraid of doing that or putting my, neck out there. It’s because of the cost, which is time and what’s left for my family. So, I mean, that’s the one thing I really wanted to make sure that not just you and I talked about, like, I finally came on. But it’s not like I was waiting to do it for any other reason other than I’m rejecting a lot of forward facing things. So that I can be one a deep relation shipbuilder and I would rather have five friends which you are on the list. Congratulation, 


Brett Bartholomew  1:17:14  

appreciate that, 


Victor Hall  1:17:40  

then 5 million followers. And so I just tried to go very deep. And that also coincides with what I’m naturally good at as an introvert, which is one on one. And staying away from like, larger numbers. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:20:19  

Yeah, well, one, I appreciate you sharing that. And I never took it as that even though I like to troll as well. And it makes a lot of sense, because we’ve done the same thing. You know, social media early on was a place where you could still share and there was not somebody controlling certain choke points, who saw it, and who did it. Right. And so that decision because I have to make that daily, right, because we have to pay the salaries of employees. And I don’t get paid unless we have sponsors for the podcast. But by and large, 90% of the information we share is for free. But for that very reason we started seeing just social media didn’t give the return on investment and or the depth of the relationship. And so we found that we wanted to build something. And this is why I’m glad you came on. Because you won’t know that this happened for another six to 1218 months. The podcasts in the newsletter people that by and large subscribe to engage with it are our stakeholders more than they are followers. There are people that by and large, want to dive deeper and engage in more context rich mediums of communication. And so even I mean, probably three years ago, started slowing down a lot on the social media platform, just those debates weren’t worth my time, because inherently you tried to debate on a non context rich medium, which kind of felt like a joke. And then it was just like, now we can reach so many more people. And then it’s a selfish time capsule for the rest of my life, whether you knew it or not. By coming on here and the rest of your life, your kids, and my kids and our family and larger ancestors are going to be able to hear this forever. These sound waves are imprinted a bit differently than an Instagram post, or Tik Tok. And there’s gravitas with that there’s weight with that, because I think if my father had passed, and he’s had a lot of health complications, would aversion of me whether it’s 13, or 33, go back and listen to every damn episode just so I could hear his voice. And it doesn’t have to be your kids, we’ve had guests on and you will be no different, that people have reached out and said, I’m a new listener. And they will find an episode that was two years old and say I needed that. So I just want to thank you for taking that step, I want you to embrace a little bit of the permanence of what you did here today. And that’s not I’m not sitting here, and this is not performative speak, this is very real, that took me a while to fully understand. And those of you that listened, I hope that whatever you took from this you will share with others because you have to remember there’s 8 billion people in the world. And while you are unique, for sure, you are also representative of a lot of other people that are having these struggles, or these questions or anything. And so you have people like Victor here that are giving their time, please honor that share that review. And Victor, if they can support you in any way, or reach out to you. Is that something you’re open to? Or is it just if anybody wants to reach out and say thank you even for the information you shared, what’s the best way to get a hold here? 


Victor Hall  1:23:12  

Probably just my work email, which I’m on probably way too much, but vhall@teamexos. Cool.


Brett Bartholomew  1:23:17  

And we will put that, we’ll make sure to put that in the show notes. So again, with all that I just want to say thank you, as a friend, as an admirer. And you know, while I say often I never had a formal mentor that put their arm around me in every step of my career. It goes without saying I think I’ve told you this before, you have certainly been a powerful like mentor in many other respects. Like, from the moment I met you, I knew that you were somebody that I could call and you’d give it to me straight. And you know, that’s just very hard to find in today’s world. So I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. And I appreciate you 


Victor Hall  1:23:51  

Thank you. Bibi doing a great job, 


Brett Bartholomew  1:23:53  

guys. Until next time, another episode of The Art of coaching podcast, please share, please rate Please rank. We appreciate you deeply and remember you can send in your questions always at We will always protect your privacy, we’ll change the name, the circumstance, all that but we want to be of help. We want to be a value. And until next time we’ll talk to you then.

Did you enjoy the show?

Your support ensures the best quality guests and listening experience.

Leave a Comment