In Art Of Coaching Podcast, Podcasts

Early in his career, Matt Morrison – Integrated Logistics Support Manager at Lockheed Martin – was given the best leadership advice he’s ever received: 

“You LEAD people and you MANAGE money and processes.”

And lead he has. 

In addition to his role at one of the world’s largest organizations, Matt has a military background and plenty of experience navigating the intersection between systems and people – most of whom he has no authoritative power over.

In today’s episode, he talks about how to lead people up and down the chain of command, as well as develop the skills necessary to do so effectively.  In addition, Matt and I cover a variety of other topics, including:

  • How to practice and develop the skill of saying the right thing at the right time (13:50)
  • The science behind why admitting your faults has a positive effect on a relationship (34:00)
  • Tips for exercising emotional control in high stress situations (35:50)
  • Ways to stand out in a large organization (43:00)

Connect w/ Matt:

If you would like to learn from Matt or anyone on the AoC team on a regular and consistent basis, apply today for 1:1 mentoring.  We work with anyone who is looking for accountability, feedback, or guidance as you strive to take steps toward your goals.  To find out more about our areas of expertise, simply apply using the link above, or reach out to us directly at

Referenced Resources:

E63: Power Dynamics in Leadership

E126: Contextual Components of Communication

E202: Influence Tactics: Why Facts & Logic Don’t Change Our Minds

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Brett Bartholomew  0:00  



Hey, Brett here, if you’re somebody that’s ever want to make a bigger impact, and frankly, I’ve never met a coach or a leader, who has ever said, I don’t want to make a bigger impact, it has never been easier to do that than it is now. And that’s because we are making our facilitator program available worldwide. If you go to, right now, again, that’s, you will learn how you can go across the world or if you prefer to stay domestic, across the country with us, and teach people all about communication, power, dynamic strategic thinking, business and branding and make an impact in the lives of 1000s of people. And more importantly, teach them skills that are going to transform every part of their life, and we’ll pay you to do it, I can’t make it clear enough, you don’t have to quit your day job. We have people teaching for us right now in law enforcement in the corporate world. In the coaching world, this has given you an invitation to join our team and be able to select situations opportunities, places you want to go to make a bigger difference, you’re gonna get to join a globally recognized team that has helped people in 36 Different industries across 15 different countries, and we want and need more qualified people to help us teach, and we’re gonna pay you for it. I can’t repeat that enough as well. That said, there is a process. And we only run two of these facilitator events per year, and we select five to seven people. So go to Now, to get the full detail. And if you’re not interested, at the very least forward it to a friend that is let us pay you to go around the world and teach and make an impact in the lives of others. Go there. Now. 


You know, there’s a simple equation for happiness that I heard once. It is expectations minus reality. And this is especially true when it comes to our work life. So many of us want to create better relationships, get more done waste less time and deal with less drama. But the fact is, is in life, you’re going to deal with power dynamics, you’re going to deal with people’s biases, agendas, you’re going to come up against difficult situations. And that is exactly why we created the apprenticeship workshop, we call the apprenticeship because when it comes to communication, and power dynamics and dealing with people, nobody’s ever going to master that. But you do have to train for it. And to this day in any industry. This is the only workshop that exists that uses a wide variety of outputs such as role playing video breakdowns, peer evaluation, highly interactive activities that help you get better at knowing how to play the game that help you become more aware and socially agile in the tensest moments of your career. And all in all, help you get the feedback that you need to grow. Now you can find a wide range of events by going to But the one I want to tell you about today is our one in Lake Tahoe. It is our next one up it is March 25 and 26th. And if you go to Right now, you can book your spot. We keep these small, we only have five spots remaining. And you can save 10% by just doing events 10 at checkout again, that’s events 10 at checkout, don’t give me the excuses. I’ll do it next year. I don’t have time and the money. If you don’t know how to communicate that can cost you results, your reputation and your career. Go to Now


Welcome to the Art of coaching Podcast. I’m Brett Bartholomew. And at a young age poor communication nearly cost me my life. Now, I help others navigate the gray area of social interaction, power dynamics and communication so they can become more adaptable leaders regardless of their profession, age or situation. This podcast is for everybody who is fascinated with solving people problems. So if you’re in the no nonsense type who appreciates frank conversations, advice you can put to use immediately and learning how others navigate the messy realities of leadership. You’re in the right place. I’m glad that you’re joining us. Let’s dive in.


Today, I sit down with Matt Morrison. Matt serves as the integrated logistics support manager for Lockheed Martin. Then for those of you not familiar, Lockheed Martin is about as close to Stark Enterprises as you can get it is a global security and aerospace company that employs approximately 116,000 people worldwide. And it’s principally engaged in the research, design, development, manufacturing and integration of advanced technology systems, products and services. It’s one of the largest, if not the largest defense contractor in the world, and today, we’re talking about how to lead and manage teams, when you don’t have formal authority. At one time or another, many of you have surely had to influence or even work on improving the performance of people that don’t formally report to you. And that can be a tricky, tricky tightrope to walk. So we’re going to talk about that we talked about managing your emotions whenever you run up against obstacles that maybe don’t move so easily. We’re also talking about how, despite the fact that Matt has to manage so many things, how does he leave that at work? How does he make sure that he doesn’t come home, then bring kind of that problem solving persona, that leadership persona into his home life, so there can be this clear separation, and he can build healthy relationships both within the workplace and maintain the one with his wife, Heidi, you’re really going to enjoy this episode, Matt is an absolute font of knowledge. Here we go.


Welcome back to another episode of The Art of coaching podcast. I am here with my good friend and neighbor, Matt Morrison. Matt, it’s been a long time coming.


Matt Morrison  6:24  

It has a has. Thank you for having me here today, Brett. I do appreciate it.


Brett Bartholomew  6:27  

Yeah, my pleasure. Listen, you’re not just a neighbor, Matt, nor you just the hulking figure that can be seen in a lot of my Instagram posts coming over and deadlifting and thrown down in the garage gym. But you are the integrated logistics support manager for Lockheed Martin, one of the world’s largest organizations. Let’s start off with what the hell does that mean that and what do you do? 


Matt Morrison  6:48  

Not fair enough? That is a good question. So a lot of people, it is a mouthful of a title. So I guess we had to put it down in one simple term and the chief lessor of cats, managing our sustainment operations for our Canada contract with the Royal Canadian Air Force. 


Brett Bartholomew  7:05  

How did you get into that? I mean, I know you have a military background, but give our audience a little bit insight how you went from growing up in West Virginia, to doing that with Lockheed Martin also, I mean, there’s just so many questions with the nuances of working for that large of an organization, one of the things we’re going to talk about is, you know, building authority or being able to lead teams when you don’t have authority of a certain kind or recognize authority, you’ve got to manage not only the people within Lockheed under your charge, but you’ve got to fly to different countries and handle a wide range of complex tasks. But given us a little insight into your background,


Matt Morrison  7:38  

yeah, sure. No problem. But so I was born as you said, 


Brett Bartholomew  7:41  

Oh shit you were born. 


Matt Morrison  7:42  

Yeah. And like Well, yeah, I hail from Parts Unknown, as they say, yeah, no, born and raised in Martinsburg, West by God, Virginia. Really, really proud to be from there. And I want people to know that it is a beautiful state, given the chance to get a chance go out there, I was fortunate enough to be able to attend the United States Air Force Academy, which kind of set out in terms of my leadership development right from the start. It’s you know, there are various schools of thought in terms of just being a normal college. It is also a leadership laboratory where you development, so immediately graduation there, you’re thrust into a job as a second lieutenant, I was in a support career field, I was actually a supply officer. So you know, I had the unique opportunity to lead men and women from the very beginning. Now, there’s not a lot of power a second lieutenant does have don’t let them fool you that my superintendent, first superintendent had been in military longer than I’ve been alive. But you know, a lot of great mentors along the way. A lot of people that were good examples, a lot of people were bad examples, but you take some from all of them. So definitely something to have there. From that I ended up hanging up my uniform after about seven years and some change went to government civil service, progress up the ranks there became a deputy director of the one of the supply chain operations squadrons as for them in the Air Force. And then from that point, I had a life changing event, started looking for some other opportunities. And I found the one with Lockheed Martin ended up being down at Warner Robins for a little bit as a field rep. And then coming up here and eventually getting the job in Marietta that has we now working as that logistics integration person for our Canadian contract.


Brett Bartholomew  9:22  

Now, just a simple question to build off that whenever I hear logistics, I think of somebody who is kind of systems oriented, right? We all know, and there’s never any of these that fit into a vacuum, but certain people would probably describe themselves as, you know, being more creative. You know, and you hear kind of archetypes of oh, I’m more left brain now. left brain right brain that stuff’s a myth. We always are gonna use both hemispheres. But are you more of a systems oriented guy? What was the drive to? I mean, thinking of Logistics is one thing people usually have to think of the logistics of, hey, what do I need to do this weekend to get my kids where they need to be the groceries? You’re talking about logistics are one of the largest most nuanced operations in the world. Life and Death type stuff? Have you always been a systems oriented person? Or would you even describe yourself as one?


Matt Morrison  10:05  

Yeah, I would say, Yeah, somewhat system oriented, I guess if you had to sum it up in, you know, kind of logistics in general. There’s, a lot of science, but there’s also a lot of art that combines with that. So, you know, I will say, my introduction and supply was given to me, that was the career field, the Air Force gave me on assignment night. So you know, so I don’t say I was drawn to it, but I grew to love it, in terms of there are usually unique and different challenges every day, there’s not a lot of mundane work. Yeah, because you know, a lot of times you are putting fires out, and you do your best to fire prevention. But sometimes there’s always a fire, you’re gonna have to fight. And so the system aspect helps. But then there’s also, you know, you don’t want to suffer paralysis by analysis, either you want to get your 85% solution and move out and see what you can do from there.


Brett Bartholomew  10:55  

One. And that’s kind of where I was going with that question. Because even if you were a very systems oriented person, you’d been in a management position, you have to deal with a lot of people. And this is where you see a lot of the struggles in various forms of whether it’s corporate America, or just large organizations, there’s people that don’t know how to, you know, navigate both sides of the field very well, right. They’re either task oriented, or the relation oriented. And as long as I’ve known you, which is pretty long now, you’ve always been able to manage that intersection really well. So you’ve talked a little bit about your affinity and kind of nuanced Regarding logistics, where does your ability to connect with people come into play? was that a learned behavior? And just a color that people often asked me? Can communication be taught? Can the art of coaching be taught, which we look at as the art of leadership? So I’m interested, like, there’s a nurture nature? For sure. Was it something that you were always good at? Did you have to pick it up? Did you refine it? How did you learn to manage that intersection?


Matt Morrison  11:50  

Yeah, so it will get first off, I firmly believe it is a something that is taught you, everyone might have some natural ability of something, but you still have to, you have to cultivate that ability. So it is taught. So, you know, in terms of you know, I grew up, you know, working class, family, working class household, you know, our parents took care of us, you know, we had opportunities, you know, we were able to, you know, build relationships have talked, you know, it was a small, tight knit community. So, you know, we had that we grew up, you know, regardless of what religious affiliation have grew up in the church, so that was still, you know, developing relationships, and that, so you’ve developed those relationships you haven’t on and then I, you know, I guess there’s a lot of when you get to a certain point, as you talked about an organization being so large that, or you’re in that kind of middle position, where you have to be able to take your message, and you have to tailor it downstream. Yeah, you also have to tail it upstream, you know, you have to be able to make the lowest level person, you have that communication piece and the upper level piece. So, that is what takes the refinement and the talent. I mean, you know, there like I said, you know, there were people that were good examples of that. There were people that were bad examples, you take a little bit for each of them, you know, like, well, that guy wrote me wrong, I’m not gonna do that. But you know, that commander was definitely, you know, good in this aspect. So you can along those lines, so I definitely think it’s a continuing process. It’s I don’t think it ever stops, you got to keep always learning and refining, because generational things come into that contact rule. You know, we’ve had those conversations and you know, I’m sure a lot of your listeners understand that. But they’re, you know, you never What’s the saying about Texas Hold’em? It takes a minute to learn a lifetime to master sales communication. Yeah, point. I mean, yeah, you can say all the words you want to say by hearing Yeah,


Brett Bartholomew  13:43  

yeah. Well, I mean, that’s a good soundbite. And I think, you know, this is why we call our workshop, the apprenticeship, because you’re never really going to master that side of it. As you talk about this, I think back to something that somebody in our recent workshop asked me or it was kind of a statement and a question wrapped in one, right, they were kind of talking about their thoughts. And they alluded to the fact that they understand that they’ve got to communicate, in your words up the chain down the chain, all these things. But their statement and question was essentially, you know, they felt so overwhelmed by that, like, where do I start? And this lends itself to something that we believe in, and it’s hard not to have bias around it, because it does fundamentally come down to communication strategy. What they were saying is, I just don’t get the time in the moment to think of this strategy I need. And afterwards, I always bite my tongue. There, I’m in the shower. And I think Man, I should have said this, that or what have you. And and I always like, I know this is putting you on the spot. But imagine I’m that person. It doesn’t have to be a young person, a naive person. This has been people this has been somebody in leadership positions that are very high up. What would you say to them when they just essentially say, Hey, I appreciate there’s a nuance here. But this all happened so fast. My brain just doesn’t work like that. You know, all I can do is the best I can and I don’t really know how to adapt on the Does that make sense? Yeah, it’s almost like they struggle with knowing how to be taught that or receiving the lesson. 


Matt Morrison  15:06  

Yeah, it probably maybe rolls back to the, you know, hindsight is always 2020, or oh, I should have said that he knows kind of you alluded to, I think we’ve all had those moments. I think what they’re, you know, there is some mental agility that kind of goes back to that it has to be learned. And, you know, you can learn it through your workshops, you can learn it through a lot of the role playing that I know, your workshops present. I mean, you know, yes, I understand you’re not going to be able to roleplay every scenario to address that individuals question there are going to be times you’re caught off guard. But the more you place yourself in those scenarios, and a, for lack of a better term, a controlled practice environment, that you know, as you would with anything, you can start to develop those thought processes is like, Okay, well, if this pathway shuts down, I can handle this, I can go there, versus just automatically backing yourself into a corner, and now you’re stuck. And you have nothing you can say, 


Brett Bartholomew  16:00  

Yeah, I think that’s a good point, what I always encourage people to do is, at least think retro actively break these things down. And I always try to code, I always try to communicate it like this, we’ll go back and look at our finances and think where could we have been a little smarter? Where could we have saved? Where could we have spent here? For some, they’ll go back and look at their diet, or they’ll analyze their sleep? You know, it’s fine if you don’t know all the language and terms and strategies in the moment, but for you to not just stop for a minute and go back and audit and say, Okay, why did I put my foot in my mouth? Why did that person react that way? And then expect it to get better? That’s just silly, you know? And so it’s, for me, it’s even something that I’ve kind of learned and that sometimes I had faulty expectations. All right, we do this podcast, we put out tons of material, we try to get people this hidden language of power, dynamics and influence. But obviously not everybody’s going to remember those things. And that takes you years and years and years to master. Right. But at the very least people can go back and think Alright, how, what did I do wrong? Just some after action planning. So I mean, this is something you surely did in the military, right? And up goes good and goes bad. You’d go back and kind of dissect it. Yes,


Matt Morrison  17:04  

exactly. Yeah, I mean, you can always do triage the incident, you know, you have that after actual repeats. And I think that, you know, that’s one thing is important, because and I think there’s one thing that you can always focus on, and you kind of hit on it there, but you know, to really foot stomp that is what could you have done differently? what you know, what could you have done to elicit a better response to, you know, perhaps, you know, make a better point, you know, because that you that you can control.


Brett Bartholomew  17:35  

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Matt Morrison  19:32  

What could you have done to elicit a better response to you know, perhaps, make a better point, because that you can control. So even if it is oh man, I should have said this. Okay, well, there you go make that mental note. Learn from that press on. Yeah,


Brett Bartholomew  19:51  

  1. And before we transition to the next point here, and I’ll give you I want to invite you to say something to this if there’s anything on your mind, but this came up the other day Somebody was talking about this. And they refer to it as many do as soft skills. And it’s something that I didn’t really ever think bugged me as much as it does, but it really starts to wear on me now, probably because I’m just too close to the material, and I do so much research on it. But to that point, it’s that’s why we shouldn’t be referred to them as soft skills. In my mind. It’s strategic thinking skills. And when you’re looking at how do I communicate, how do I reflect on these things? How do I iterate? How do I like that strategic thinking? That’s problem solving? Does that ring a bell with you at all? Or does that 


Matt Morrison  20:28  

Oh I agree The term of any type of communication? Or that conversational negotiation being a soft skill to me? Is this complete? And utter BS? because it, you know, all most of the majority of the problems that we’re going to encounter, whether it be a business or personal relationship, professional relationship, financial bank dealing with anything, communication is at the root of that, right? So if you can’t get your point across, so to me, it’s a very, it’s a hard skill. It’s one that shouldn’t be taught more. And I don’t you know, and it’s not, but it needs to be, 


Brett Bartholomew  21:04  

have you ever gone through a period of your life? Where despite all the different forms of leadership that you’ve had to take on? Where you really realize, man, okay, cuz you’re 47? Correct. 


Matt Morrison  21:15  

,but thank you, 


Brett Bartholomew  21:16  

  1. Okay, have you ever thought at one point, you know, I was really good at this, or I thought I was really good at this. And then whether it’s a different position or a different situation? And we’ll get into some of those specifics in a moment. But like, was there ever a wake up call? And if so, what were those wake up calls where you were like, okay, so got more to learn here. And if you don’t mind sharing, what areas do you think you still need to grow as a communicator? and refine?


Matt Morrison  21:39  

Yeah, no, Okay Look, anyone you know, again I have them weekly, monthly, sometimes daily, you always have them, I mean, come on anyone that says no, one’s the perfect communicator, because we’re humans, sometimes emotion crosses into sometimes whatever it may be, I have those. I mean, you know, that is a big one to me, you know, I am really, maybe somewhat over protective of people and processes, but and that are under our control. And, you know, I’m like, uh, you know, if you come at my people, you know, then we have an issue. And, you know, sometimes it needs to be caught up. But you know, I’ve learned to not suppress that. But to make sure through my communication, that I keep that emotion in check. So that’s one of the ones that really is one that I, as I seek continuous improvement through, you know, the things that I’ve done or continue in my professional development, that’s one that I will always work on. Because I know that’s always going to be an issue for me, is not having an emotional response, and then tempering myself to make sure that well, to not attack the person to attack the process. 


Brett Bartholomew  22:46  

Yeah, I think that’s a good answer. Now, getting into this next piece, when you and I were talking about ideas of what we should discuss on the podcast, and it’s not every day, you look across the street, and you have somebody that’s in a leadership position at such a massive organization as a background, like you, you brought up a topic that literally no other guests has even hinted at, and I probably haven’t really thought about, and it was along the lines of how do you lead and manage in situations where you have no true formal authority? You know, and I think that’s incredibly relevant for everybody listening, because, you know, you look at organizations now and whether they’re traditionally structured in that hierarchical fashion or not, everybody’s kind of wondering, well, one, and we’ll address this to remind me if we don’t get to it right off the bat, how do I find my leadership voice? And then to, well, am I even a leader, and then three, who the hell is gonna listen to me? And essentially, just starting with the first thing, I’d love you to expand upon a little bit what you mean by Hey, how do you manage? How do you lead when you maybe don’t have recognized formal authority? Or that’s ambiguous in the situation you might be in? 


Matt Morrison  23:49  

Yeah, no problem. So and using, you know, the current position I’m in, you know, there are lots of areas that fall under our area of responsibility where we are expected to at least, you know, be aware of what’s going on what’s happening, and then, you know, if deficiencies exist, correct, or, you know, advice along the way, you know, but we’re, you know, none of the individuals of the integrated team, if you will, our direct reports. So 


Brett Bartholomew  24:19  

record just spell that out. 


Matt Morrison  24:21  

They do not work directly for me, I do not rate on them, I do not control their appraisals, their salary, the raises, hire or fire, nothing. it’s this, you know, so how do you influence those individuals to, you know, to create the buy in to create the drive for the common goal, you know, and also manage the address the, the multiple personalities that you’re dealing with?


Brett Bartholomew  24:45  

Yeah, well, so expand on that even more, you know, first of all, how many employees and I know you don’t know exactly, or maybe you do, how many employees are there in Lockheed Martin?


Matt Morrison  24:55  

10s of 1000s I don’t know. Yeah, I don’t know. 


Brett Bartholomew  24:58  

Right. But the point is, is despite you You have an A manager title or even better director title, if I’m hearing you correctly, you’re just saying, hey, there are so many different divisions within this company that you know, you’re gonna cross, there’s going to be this intersection between different divisions. And even though you might have this hierarchical  this title that seems like, Hey, I’m above so and so. But they’re not going to report to you, or they’re just lateral issue there. But you still got to work together, you’ve got to find some cohesiveness. Yes, right. Yes, exactly.


Matt Morrison  25:27  

And yeah, it doesn’t just cross a crossed actual business areas, you know, Lucky margins and big companies. I mean, it has multiple business areas. So whether it be you know, that, you know, someone in aeronautics dealing with someone and, you know, space or, you know, just along those lines, so, yes, there are you cross multiple swim lanes. that, you know, that require, you know, you’re not stuck in a stovepipe, for sure. You’re, reaching across boundaries, and you’re, definitely having to find ways to communicate your point and create the influence you need along those lines. 


Brett Bartholomew  26:02  

Yeah. And this to me, in some ways, for anybody in the performance profession that was listening, right, it’s like, somebody can be the director of Strength Conditioning, but they still gotta be able to talk to medical, and they’ve got to be able to talk to the front office, and blah, blah, blah, then then even some, like, you could look at it, and this wouldn’t be a direct example. But if I’m the head of whatever, in the NBA, well, there’s so the G League, and there’s all these other leagues. Well, and Lockheed, it’s much broader and bigger than that, but then also, you’ve got to go into other countries, and negotiate on behalf of Lockheed. And then you’ve got direct reports there. And you’ve got so I mean, give me a case study and example, whether it’s you going into another country, negotiating or whether within Lockheed as you started to ascend into a management role of were you were maybe successful or even not successful, building that authority. Without that formal recognition. Is there one moment that stands out? In particular, any story that you can think of? 


Matt Morrison  26:52  

Well, there’s probably a cup and, you know, ironically enough, there, it’s not, because I think it’s, I remember, the ones where I made a trip. And, you know, I think I remember those more. So I could probably throw, you know, maybe a where I missed up. And then what I learned from that, so one of them was just see, how do I put it in without  I’m just trying to say, you know, so basically, to clear requirements that are deliveries and confirmed deliveries, there are certain forms and administrative actions and the 


Brett Bartholomew  27:27  

billion dollar planes, 


Matt Morrison  27:28  

well, yeah, or just $20 parts, you still, they still go across on the same form. And I came into a program that that process was lacking or broke down. And that, you know, that form was, those were starting to build up and they they weren’t cleared. And part of that issue is it involves payments, that involves other government agencies that, you know, audit what’s going on and along those lines, so in terms of trying to come in and clean that up, we brought several stakeholders together. And, what I thought I had provided clear direction, and I thought I had given the direct action of what I wanted to occur, which was, you know, we’re creating a database that we’re going to, you know, we’re gonna take methods, you know, one step at a time, not gonna, you know, bite off more than we can chew, we’re gonna fix it, we’re gonna go with age lens, first, get those and then, you know, work backwards. And, you know, come to find out, in part of that I had upset someone on the team, because unbeknownst to me that, you know, they had already started their own initiative to try to clean this up before I came in. So now they’re under their perception, I’m, you know, coming in because they couldn’t get their job done, which wasn’t the case at all. It was just, you know, I was new, this was a problem we’re going to fix. And I was, you know, told to fix it. So, and then, you know, there was another individual who, you know, had been working along those lines, who, you know, I guess, I will say, just, for lack of a better term, probably didn’t appreciate the new guy coming in, and just barking orders, which, you know, you know, hindsight, obviously, is 2020. So, looking back on it, I did come in rather demonstrative off the bat and then learn from that. So, I backed off a little bit isolated, you know, not isolated, sounds like us, you know, isolate them and then share it, but I went to their, you know, I went to their offices, I went to their cubes, I went, and to, you know, hey, look, this is where I’m at. I, you know, and apologized, you know, because we’re all flawed and, and, you know, along those lines, so, you know, I didn’t have all the facts, and then I probably didn’t, I wasn’t as prepared as I should have been. And so what I did the next time I had a project plan, I kind of went in and said, you know, right off the bat, hey, you know, this is the problem I’m seeing. Has anyone had any x units or plans that they’ve been working to try to correct this, that we can either a expand on Refine, or you know, then now you know, I brought them in, I made the solution. 


Brett Bartholomew  30:11  

So if I if I were to try to summarize that in you, essentially you are trying to be helpful, you’re trying to communicate very clearly crossed, your i’s or dotted your I’s cross your t’s everything. Inevitably, when we do that somebody is bound to feel a certain way. Now, maybe like you said, we can be overbearing without meaning to we’re always part of the problem, whether we mean to be or not, but either way, somebody kind of felt like, Hey, you’re stepping on my toes, or you’re kind of coming in, and hard charging, you realize the error of your ways, or even how it could be perceived. And then instead of just not doing anything about it, you were direct, went to them, found them at their location, right, and said, Hey, I was just trying to do X wasn’t trying to kind of overstep wasn’t trying to, you know, make what you were doing seem small or wrong. And you kind of just clear that up. So what you’re saying is, essentially, even when we try to do good, we can inherently have some forms of miscommunication. But the key is to just be direct to them and solve it right away and make sure you get back on the same page for the betterment of the whole plan. 


Matt Morrison  31:07  

That’s exactly right. Yeah, I mean, you know, you’re gonna have if you create the blowback, you know, bad news, whatever, doesn’t get better with time address it immediately. 


Brett Bartholomew  31:14  

So but why do you think now, like, despite how, you know, somebody’s listening to that a skeptic, let’s say somebody, their friend told him to listen to the podcast, they heard that and they’re like, Wow, mind blowing, you know, but inherently, the shit just doesn’t get done. So why is it so it’s that simple sometimes just to say, Hey, I wasn’t trying to do this. And I know, I’ve dealt with this, you know, my passion made me kind of, but I could easily be looked at as Oh, you micromanage that? or are you are aggressive? Here’s like, no, no, no, no, I was just trying to help. Very passionate, I’m sorry. But people forget how difficult that can be to just meta communicate and go deal with it, the source of it, as opposed to letting you know, just things continue to flare? 


Matt Morrison  31:53  

Well, yeah. And that’s because a lot of people just they want to take the easy way out. And the easy way out, is to put your head in the sand and do nothing about it, but you’re not progressing, your whatever, you’re not progressing your goal at that point. Yeah, so but I think that is that is unfortunately, that path of least resistance that people will take well, and then even compound that they’re going to go back, and then they’re going to whether it be because of emotional response, you know, chances are inner offer Paulus, inner, inter off this path politics or whatever is gonna happen, they’re gonna start spreading, you know, well, so and so was a roadblock to my success. And when all you had to do was take the immediate action within, you know, a day or two, I mean, again, you don’t chase them out of the room left out, there’s an emotional piece. I mean, we’re not, you know, coaching every tech thing, but that point you address it, and then you put it out there because you talked earlier about the having the, you know, discuss those with people and, I think you have that you have the build that relationship. And I think one of the biggest ways you can build that relationship, and I know you’ve hit on it before. And you know, is you when you meeting you’re not perfect admitting you have flaws, and then showing that you’re willing to learn and grow from what happened. that goes a long way. in people well, and I know, I respect that when people do that, to me, if someone really fires me up, and then you know, and I tell them something, they say, wow, you know, I didn’t really see it that way. Appreciate it. I have more respect for them as an individual now, because, you know, at least they you know, I’m not saying My way is right or wrong. But what I’m saying is this is, you know, the situation, this was the scenario, I appreciate the fact that, you know, you admitted that every you know, you’re not 100% Perfect, and I tried to do that too, because because you’re not, you’re gonna screw it up.


Brett Bartholomew  33:44  

Yeah, no, I think that’s a great point. And brief aside, for those of you listening, this complements the podcast episodes we’ve done on power dynamics, influence tactics, and even the the understanding of context so much, because what you’re alluding to Matt, right is when you when you do try to just get on the same page with somebody, right? You’re building that referent power. And that’s even speaks to and I know you’ve been to you were at our workshop in Wales, where he talked about the Johari Window, right, taking something and putting it in your open windows saying, Hey, here’s something that I know, but you may not know, I’m trying to help. Here’s what helping looked like to me. And I’m also going to eat crow in this situation. And I understand I might have been wrong or blah, blah, but you’re taking information and putting it. So we all have this common ground. Well, that’s putting into your open window, and you build that referent power. You know, when I think about other ways to build power without that formal authority, right? There’s a lot of other things like there’s exchange tactics, hey, you know what, I’ll help you with this. If you can kind of grease the wheel here, or you know, you give them a bit of information or maybe you connect them with somebody else that can help them with something they’re struggling with. There’s so many different ways. It’s funny, no matter how advanced we are advancing quotes in today’s society, so much of building authority and power is still based off that old bartering system. Some, right it’s you need this, I need this. Let’s find a way to do it. We’re just not No, it’s not Pelton pounds of sugar, right. It’s relationships, information resources and, relatability, in a way. 


Matt Morrison  35:10  

Exactly right. And, you know, in even the relationship piece, you know, it’s sometimes it might, if it’s not an exchange of information, it’s just the acknowledgement of that persons. I think you quote, you said the other day, you’re not an expert, someone invites you in, you know, by inviting that person in as an expert, you have now involved them, and you know, now they are part of that solution, and they’re way more willing to help


Brett Bartholomew  35:31  

out. Yeah, yeah. All right. Let’s switch gears and talk about emotional control. Now, the point being is, inevitably we still run up against and these names are completely fictitious, it could be any nationality, gender, whatever. But let’s say it’s a Dan or a Deborah. And they’re just the administrative like, No, you know, they’re not going to budge. They’re not going to do anything. They’re Ebenezer Scrooge, before the Christmas, Carol, whatever, and no matter what you’re trying, it ain’t working. You know, how do you control your emotions when you know that there’s this person? And no matter what your poking and prodding because even me, like I study influence and power for a living, I don’t win them all. You know what I mean? I don’t want them all. And I think it almost works against me, in some sense, because some people didn’t want to prove, you know, 


Matt Morrison  36:15  

they beat the man. 


Brett Bartholomew  36:16  

Right? It’s like this 


Matt Morrison  36:17  

The Ric Flair thing, right, man, you gotta beat 


Brett Bartholomew  36:19  

Yeah, Joker Batman thing where they’re like an unstoppable force meets an immovable object. And so, but and then inevitable, you’ve got to control your emotions. And I think that this is relevant, you know, to somebody that’s dealing with somebody on the other end of customer service, if you’re disputing your credit card charge, if you’re stuck at the airport, and there’s an issue, we just came off a 15 hour flight to Sydney, Wi Fi didn’t work. I had the rudest flight attendant ever. My seat back, like wouldn’t recline and I’m like, Yeah, I want my points. Talk to me about how you manage your emotions, even when you’re up against just these less than stellar situations and people that are just shitheads,  or can act as such


Matt Morrison  36:58  

so that, you know, we already alluded to that fact, that is one of my challenges. One of the, key areas that I’m really that really helps me the key things that I do is I mean, I will take a strategic pause, whether it be with 


Brett Bartholomew  36:58  

a strategic pause, 


Matt Morrison  37:16  



Brett Bartholomew  37:16  

What does that look like? Do a strategic pause right now


Matt Morrison  37:18  

No. Strategic Well, I gotta be careful the nonverbals too, because you can’t say well, I guess you can’t see me here. But this is kind


Brett Bartholomew  37:24  

of what I’m gonna describe you, but it just got on Matt’s getting ready for a strategic pause. So right now he’s smiling. Do it, Matt. Okay. Oh, now, if you haven’t seen Matt, Matt has his shoulders have come down a little bit. His beard, which glistens like fresh snow. Like he relaxes his jaw and your eyes soften.


Matt Morrison  37:41  

And that helps cuz that takes one It calms me down. Yeah. And two, you know, I don’t want somebody swell, getting bold. You know, you always hear that expression out here. But you know, that’s not gonna blow up on somebody. And that’s 


Brett Bartholomew  37:54  

Jesus. Man, I’d hope not. If you blow up on somebody


Matt Morrison  37:57  

that’s gonna be above, you know, only one conversation with age. No, I’m just kidding. 


Brett Bartholomew  38:02  

But if you haven’t seen Matt, Matt looks like God put them together and goes, you are here to move objects, smash things? And if there was a physical embodiment of the Juggernaut embodiment of the Juggernaut, you would have him here. So yeah, you wouldn’t want to bow out?


Matt Morrison  38:18  

No. So I mean, so that helps me one, collect what I’m going to say next. Because, you know, again, the mental sparring the verbal back and forth, you know, the control what I’m going to say that pause, and will definitely help me, what am I going to say next? What’s next? If it continues to degrade in terms of an emotional response, and I can tell that I’m, you know, I’m at the point now that I might say something that’s going to impact what’s going on, you know, any type of relationship moving forward, or any type of progress where I’m trying to get, I mean, I’ll shut it down. Oh, and be like, Okay, I’m leaving your office, I believe, Hey, okay, you know, thank you for your feedback. Thank you for appreciate that, oh, you know, what, I hadn’t considered that. Let me go back and make sure I got everything understanding in my mind, you know, put it back on me that, hey, I’m gonna, it’s gonna take some time, I’m gonna go back and make sure I’m talking and then come back, because, you know, to make an emotional response at the wrong time, can you know, that can destroy hours upon hours of what you’ve been trying to do and building that relationship with that individual? Even if you’ve only moved, you know, an inch or two, you’ve made a movement in the right direction? Yeah, you know, and it’s going to be you’re going to lose a foot. I mean, if we’re talking, you know, you gain the yard we’re trying to get there, you’re gonna take a 15 yard or on the way, 


Brett Bartholomew  39:34  

right. I think a couple of things that I do to add to that is just, you know, because as you’re talking, I’m reflecting and I don’t want it to be necessarily one sided or maybe this sucks and I deal with you, you know, depending on the person of course, this wouldn’t happen with airline attendant or credit card. But this has happened in previous jobs where I was employee, I try to get to know everything I can about that person. Like I think I’m a particularly stubborn IT individual. in the IT department that I needed help from and, you know, unless if it was something that was not fun for them, they were never going to come up and help you. And I just remember going around to four or five different colleagues. And I’m like, hey, what’s the key to this person right here? Have you interacted with them? What have your interactions been like? And I think two or three of them were like, Yeah, I mean, I got cut off, you know, right. They’re not gonna help me. But there were a couple others that were like, Nah, yeah, like, good relationship. I’m like, what was the key? And one of them was like, well, he’s a gamer, you know. So like, started off talking. And this goes into where like, the indirect can be the direct, right? There’s always this kind of indirect route to influence. And there were a couple other things. And then somebody told me like, you know, what time they bumped into a mall, getting a blue ice at the gas station, down the street, or whatever. So one day by the due to blue, I see, like, Hey, I probably piss you off. I didn’t mean to come at you like this, like you’re the guy to solve all my tech problems. I’m clueless on this, I need your help. What do you say I give you one of these every day for a week, 


that everybody could go to that extreme, but it got it done. Or think of it really, you know, an interesting situation right? Now, sometimes it’s just persistence. And feel free to disagree with this, you know, once I elaborate, but you know, I think of this customer service example, right now, I’ve been going back and forth with this organization for about three weeks now. And I’m not gonna stop coming, you know, and eventually, they said, Alright, listen, if you can submit this in this form, and do this, we’ll push it through. And that’s where it’s like, you know, if you and I gotta be careful how you phrase this, everybody, just give me permission to say this in an imperfect way, don’t deep fake this later on. It’s kind of that idea that, okay, you’re not going to win in life, but at least be willing to give, you know, the people that are a pain in the butt, sometimes a black eye, you know, be hard to remove, be hard to get rid of. And eventually this person just like, now, they want to give me my way, just because I won’t go away, you know. And so that can be another form. But I just think even if you can, if you can make their life easier, you can find something to barter, you can just be persistent, you can break down that barrier, or I think your example still earlier was tremendous. Just be direct, be direct, a little bit more vulnerable, and see how those things play out. Sometimes


Matt Morrison  42:02  

Oh, agreed, especially on the point of the persistence piece. I mean, you know, it’s just as much as we all hate cliches, I made that squeaky wheel. I mean, that’s that’s the whole point. I mean, you know, and but I think, you know, it does help and also two, yeah, I definitely agree with the point you made about trying to find, I mean, you know, you look at people there, you know, sometimes people just have bad days, yeah, people, you know, you don’t know what’s going on. I mean, they could have suffered a tragedy, you know, and the one day you walked in on them, and they, you know, they just reverted to destroy everything that you’ve been working on, you know, well, maybe something that, you know, that so there are those things that, you know, that help in the in the bigger piece, and to actually refine that and move that forward? 


Brett Bartholomew  42:45  

How do you, you know, there’s a lot of things I want to ask you, you know, but within such a large organization to how do you even attempt to and this is gonna be worded vaguely, because this is how sometimes these questions come to me and just, take it where you will? How do you even go about standing out, you know, in an organization where there’s 10s, of 1000, any, let’s say there was even 5000 employees, right? Those things become hard to get seen. And of course, you don’t go to your job every day with the intent, hey, I’m gonna stand out, you want to do your job? Well, so that’s a given, right? But how do you even a dress, you know, finding ways to to whether it’s promotions or just getting in good with the boss, this is another example of interpersonal politics we all inherently have to deal with. Can you just ruminate on, take it anywhere you want? 


Matt Morrison  43:32  

No. I mean, it’s a very good question. And a valid question. you know, I think one everyone, especially in very large organizations struggles with when you’re, for lack of a better term, you’re a number, you know, you’re the cog in the machine. And, I think one of the biggest ways is in first off, I mean, this sounds, but it’s, it’s oversimplify, but I’ll expand on it is just do your job, and do it well. And I say that because, you know, the, our, you know, at least in our organization with, you know, our team and you know, my current and previous chains of command there, you know, that you by doing that, you know, you you become someone who’s reliable, you become someone who can be you know, dependent upon to get their tasks done on time, you know, and then and that helps build a credibility to your name, I mean, your name is your brand in that particular case. I mean, you know, your you know, because you you now have to perform alone that you know, as we as you know, branding is a big thing and a lot of things and a lot of businesses and a lot of you know a lot of areas but you’re your own personal brand and that you know, so if they say well, you know, all we gave the task to Matt Morrison, okay, well, we’re sure we can get it done, you know, and he will Want to kind of be that type of individual? I mean, now, let’s doesn’t say  your yes, you know, going to do it all the time, blah, blah, blah, no, no, for those of you that having to read the book soldier archetypes where you just do what you’re going to do, I mean, you know, and then beat yourself into the ground. Because as you develop that credibility, as you develop that relationship with management along the way, that credibility allows you to push back, you push back professionally, but it does allow you to push back and say, Hey, what, you know, this, this, you know, this eight balls, that’s the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, I’m not, you know, or, Hey, boss, we tried that, you know, it gives you some of that credibility. So, I mean, the performance is definitely a big thing. Another thing is the relationships, and I’m not talking about running around, you know, kissing butt or anything like that. But you know, saying hello to people, being polite already, you know, a good handshake, a fist bump, and whatever world we’re living in now, we’re, you know, with human contact, those things go a long way in developing that relationship. But to me, the biggest thing is you have to perform. 


Brett Bartholomew  46:03  

Yeah, yeah, well, and I think that coincides a little bit too, with even being able to find your voice, you know, it’s that becomes that coincides with your reputation, your brand within the organization and all these things. Another question we had got recently, as somebody reached out, and I always try to be mindful of privacy, you know, when they reached out to DMS, but essentially they took a new job, and they thought they were going to be able to do and in this context, a lot more coaching, leadership, management, things like that. But inherently, there’s parts of the job that they don’t like that much. Now, we all have that, right. We all have certain parts of our job that we’re not going to, like, you know, for me, even the things that I love sometimes be things become things that I don’t like, if my plate starts piling up, you know, it’s tricky. And you know, I think that’s something that sometimes I don’t know, if it’s a generational thing that I think that can become an easy cop out. But sometimes it is a struggle to get certain people to realize, like, hey, it’s called work for a reason. You know what I mean? And while we’re fed a lot of stuff that your work should be your passion and your life and all those things, inherently, that’s not how it’s going to be like even think about. And there’s a question coming here, 


I just want to color it a little bit. You talked about family, right? Like, you’re married, I’m married, and I’m a father, there are things about our personal and professional lives that are challenges for us, there’s always gonna be things we, I guess, because you mentor people that are junior to you, but you also have, you know, gotta manage a lot of different ways. How do you approach that? How do you and even within yourself, how do you manage like, Oh, my God, there’s so many of these things I don’t want to do, but I know I need to do it. Or if somebody that you’re Junior comes up to and it kind of just seems like they’re complaining without thinking about a lot of solutions, or, and they’re not necessarily trying to do that in a negative sense. But that’s just kind of where that’s going. How do you manage that? And what advice in general do you have for people that sometimes forget, hey, you know, you’re gonna have to do these things. That’s real. Like, we don’t all just go to work and do the things that we love all the time. Yes.


Matt Morrison  47:56  

And those of you have found that I respect you and appreciate you, and I’m probably somewhat envious, but yes, you’re there’s so a lot of things you’ll tell the younger folks, I mean, I think a lot of it’s almost we’re, you know, they’ve been I’ve been with the company a year, I’ll come I’m not Senior Vice President of this. I’m like, Well, you know, you’ll get that at Lockheed. You know, that’s, that’s a biggie. I


Brett Bartholomew  48:20  

mean, I’m sure you get things like that you


Matt Morrison  48:22  

get a lot. Well, how come I haven’t been promoted? You know? And I’m like, Well, you know, here’s, you know, what, whatever the situation is,


Brett Bartholomew  48:29  

I’m in here two years, two years. I


Matt Morrison  48:30  

mean, you’re learning, you know, and I appreciate that, you know, but, you know, I guess, to me, it is probably a little bit of, you know, you, you got to find that you got to find the good with the bad piece. And I’m, I guess I’m struggling here, because I’m not really sure how to communicate that, ironically enough, but you know, you’ve got to have to accept that it’s not all going to be, you know, Wine and Roses every day, and there’s going to be some, you know, challenges that you’re going to have to face but, you know, I think you know, depending on your drive and what motivates you, I mean, you you definitely, you know, if you know, you’re driven by adversity, you know, you can make it a challenge. I mean, to me, I try to make those things a challenge or I also know that you know, you know, from a personal standpoint, I mean, again, you know, we’re getting into that piece of it and not in general but it’s got to be personal individual and to me, I mean, the compensation for the work you know, drives me I mean, I think we’re all I mean, nobody I mean, you know, I get it people might do something for love, they still gotta eat, I still gotta make money. So the compensation drives me and some of the benefits package I mean, you know, to, you know, handle some life situations that you know, are going on, I mean, but those are things but you have to find them within yourself. And but you know, you first foremost, gotta remember, there’s gonna be some crap you’re gonna deal with. And you’re gonna have some crappy days. 


Brett Bartholomew  50:05  

Yeah. And I think even when I was talking, that’s really good advice. And when I was talking to this person, some of the bread crumbs left clues, I had asked about their previous jobs and their previous jobs came with no real authority, this job was a step up, even though the title was kind of a lateral move, but they’re in charge of a lot more. And so I said, Well, that’s inherently what you get. When you gain authority in an organization, you’re gonna have more responsibilities and those responsibilities. You know, when you’re, I think back to when I was just a grad assistant, or an assistant strength coach, or even a full time employees that wasn’t in a leadership position, necessarily, like, well, the scope of things I had to deal with was relatively narrow compared to when I took a leadership position, or now when I own a business, like when I own a business now, inherently, we have to deal with taxes, we have to deal with employees stuff, we have to deal with our content and the things that we have to put out. And so I think sometimes people just, also, it’s interesting, there’s this dissonance where they want more responsibility and authority, but they want those things to just be the things they like to do. And I think we’re not told that, like, it’s not just about the job you pick, as you grow in a leadership scenario, more falls under your purview. You know, I would imagine that if we had Andy Jassy, you know, CEO of Amazon on the show, it’s like, hey, is there a lot of your job parts of your job that you don’t want to deal with? He’s like, Well, I can delegate a good bit of it. But yeah, you know, like, I, as a CEO, I have to make nearly every damn decision higher order that I think and so I would just, I would really challenge some of you listening to remember, like, you think you want this job, you think you want this position you think you want this life, but new levels, new devils, the worries come with that? The worries come with that. And that’s, that’s inherently part that would be like me being like, I’m gonna start my own business. But I only want to do the things that I’m great at. Okay, well, 


Matt Morrison  51:51  

yeah, yeah, that’s exactly right. I mean, you can’t you know, the more money more problems, whatever colors you want to use, the fact of the matter is, you strove to get that increased responsibility. It may not have been all you thought it was going to be, but you know, you want it to be in that situation. So embrace it and make it work for


Brett Bartholomew  52:08  

you. Do you think some of this and we see this one size fits all, so permeate our culture in a lot of ways you and I have talked about in the leadership, right, like, where people think, Oh, you just got to be charismatic? And this and that. Do you see some of this and work culture to like when you’re told, well do something love you You love say No, do it, you’re the best at whatever. Now, I want to be fair, right? Like, as the CEO of art of coaching, right? I do have to delegate some things, because there are some tasks I like, need my time. But like I said, that doesn’t divest me from like, I just had to go to Australia for five days, in an ideal world, another staff member could go lock that in and whatever, especially when I’m writing a book and trying to do these things, but like, you would believe that we can all just find something we love, say no to anything we don’t want to do, you know yet so learn and grow. Like how the hell do you learn and grow? If we all just have jobs we love we have, we don’t have to do anything we hate. We don’t feel any pressure, we never feel underappreciated undervalued. Where exactly does that growth come from? 


Matt Morrison  53:05  

That the point is it doesn’t, right? I mean, I think yeah, it doesn’t at all. I mean, like you said, we’ve had this conversation for the benefit of, you know, the folks listening it, you stagnant at that point. And then once you’re stagnant, you’re not moving forward. You’re, you’re you’re just you’re gonna die on the vine. I mean, yeah. And that’s kind of the gist of everything is uncomfortable. Some situations may be, or, you know, the good or the bad leaders that you’ve had throughout your life that good or bad mentors, there’s still something to learn from them. And so you’ve got to learn to continue that process, that continuous improvement within you, as a leader, as a follower, as you know, whatever, you know, you kind of hit the point about, you know, the leadership piece. And, you know, it is the skill. So, if you’re not using it, you’re going to lose it. Yeah, communication is a skill, if you’re not going to use it, if you’re not in uncomfortable situations, you know, and I’m not talking, you know, super awkward, but, you know, if you’re not making the tough decisions that you wanted to make when you accepted the position or the promotion, you know, then you probably shouldn’t have put in for it at all. 


Brett Bartholomew  54:07  

Yeah, well, and, again, just to make sure people know that this isn’t hypocritical, right, like, I’ve been very open about the things that I struggle with this and Matt, you know, stop me if you’re not comfortable with this, right. But I think you’ve been very open about challenges, not only in the leadership situation, but previous marriage and things like that you learn through these things


Matt Morrison  54:25  

You always learn, I mean, you know, yes, I have a previous marriage and, you know, it did not end well. And, but, you know, ironically, and I’ve said this to Brett, and I’ll just say it to everyone because everyone can learn from something, you know, it was communication, I mean, that was the biggest breakdown and some of the most effective communication that probably occurred in that relationship occurred after you know, separation and you know, when fun and but you know, again it is something you learn from and you know, now you know, with, you know, my wife today we have a very Open communication policy to the you know that the just that there’s, you know, there’s no, it’s polite, it’s a loving, it’s professional, but we have the tough conversations early and often to get it out there. 


Brett Bartholomew  55:11  

Well, and I’m glad you mentioned that I appreciate you being open. This is the last kind of round of questions I have for you before you get the final word. Inevitably also part of leadership or leadership, there’s this part about being able to code switch. So you’re you there’s work man that has to deal with a wide variety of ambiguous chaotic, volatile situations. But then you got to come home, right, you’ve got to make sure that you don’t always bring manager Matt home. And and just to laugh at myself first, to create some psychological safety and invitation here. I just remember as a strength coach, I would you know, you’d be just blaring Jay Z, Eminem, Linkin Park, all these things all day. And you’re used to commanding these large groups and having to have this like kind of elevated persona, which is a part of you, right, but on like level 10, to be able to me it’s a 10,000 square foot space, there’s other groups going on. And sometimes it was very hard for me to bring that home. So I’d have to kind of listen to chill music in the car, right? I’d have to turn you know, some kind of an I’d have to have this process. Because otherwise coach Brett would essentially come home and communicate in the same way unbeknownst to me. How do you we talked about dealing with a wide variety of personalities, emotional control, self awareness, learning from mistakes? How do you make sure that you don’t bring the problems from work into home?


Matt Morrison  56:23  

Well, that’s a yeah, that’s so one of the the commute helps. So if I’m coming back, that is definitely a time to settle down. 


Brett Bartholomew  56:23  

How long is your commute,


Matt Morrison  56:23  

it’s about 45 minutes to an hour and a half,


Brett Bartholomew  56:24  

I find that that’s kind of the sweet spot. When we’re in Sydney, most people were saying they committed, like when we talked, it feels like 45 minutes an hour is enough to really lock in have drank your coffee, or whatever it is,


Matt Morrison  56:46  

it is and it definitely it helps clear the mind, you know, hit the listen to the art of  coaching podcast on the way home but I mean, you know, I do that’s, that’s because it’s the meantime, I mean, you know, I can sit there and I can be frustrated with Atlanta traffic, or I can, you know, okay, use it to, you know, continue that process improvement within yourself. I, you know, again, because we have a friendship, I also have the option of and which I use the ability to come hit your shed and relieve the stress, the shed is just a Brett’s amazing home gym. And it is the place where you can just get in there you can get, you can work, you can sweat, you can talk, and you can just let it all hang out. 


Brett Bartholomew  57:32  

it’s basically, if you can think of a menagerie of weights, right, like it’s things that I’ve collected over the years, because that’s my therapy, right. And when I first moved here, for those of you listening, you know, Matt, and I didn’t know each other from Adam, my wife was kind of running a weekly kind of boot camp out of the garage, you know, she’s very social. If you’re familiar with our drives quiz on art of, what drives you, she’s very much a unity drive, Matt came over and partook in that. And then, you know, basically, when my wife scheduled change that, you know, they still wanted to lift weights, and I was like, well, you can train with me for a while. And so, Matt and I do that. But yeah, I mean, like, I think that that’s, that’s been a huge thing for both of us is being able to say like, you know, we kind of bitch to each other. And hopefully, we can go to home and show up for our significant others in a better way. You know, I know, we also talked about the fact that that doesn’t always happen. And, you know,


Matt Morrison  58:23  

and you know, but it goes back to it, you know, you you’re not gonna win them all. But you do the best you can with you know, and but you know, you also I think, as you become more emotionally mature, and in a lot of things, you realize what you know, so if I know that I haven’t decompressed as much as I need to, you know, I’m like, hey, you know, give me 50 more minutes to go. Play video game, let me just go up, or sometimes, you know, how do you learn to read it as well, ladies, my wife, and that, you know, he’s upstairs, just decompress and find your space and just let me have it. And then, you know, and then I’m not I don’t come home, and I’m like, hey, I need to report to my office. Nevermind, I shouldn’t have said that, you know? 


Brett Bartholomew  59:07  

Yeah, sure. Now, well, and I want to take this moment to for those of you listening, if you don’t know, we have a virtual mentoring network, we just find that, you know, there are certain people and I don’t know how many of you can relate to this. But I know for me, you know, I’ve tried a lot of different things. I’ve kept it all and at times, in the past, I’ve talked to a therapist, you know, but for me, as somebody that never really had a mentor, I know I’m somebody that really values accountability and an ear, but also kind of something that’s gonna give me tactics and strategies, you know, so Matt is one of our coaches where no matter where you are around the world, we will pair you up with coaches and you can grow in the executive space, the personal space, any space that deals with life and leadership and those messy realities. So you know, before Matt, and I kind of wrap this up, I just, I really want to encourage you guys to go to We’ll have these links posted all over. But Matt is such a wonderful mentor and there’s not many opportunities you’re gonna get in life, too. To say that you can learn from somebody who works for one of the world’s largest organizations, and has really been able to lead in a variety of different countries and contexts. 


Matt, I’m purposely going to cut this short because I want it to be like one of those Howard Stern guests, where people are like, Oh, when’s the neighbor, Matt coming back on Wednesday, this person coming back on like, this is something new we’re trying to do with the show is, you know, certain guests are great for kind of one hitters, you know, and then certain guys kind of people fall in love with their personalities, and they want to, and that’s not to say those other guests aren’t right. But like, you just have these people that are kind of accessible within your fingertips and within your reach. But what are some kind of just closing thoughts and things that, you know, as we wrap this, you’re like, Man, I really want to share that on any topic whatsoever? What are some points of advice, or just kind of call to action here?


Matt Morrison  1:00:48  

Yeah, no problem. So I think one of the biggest things I’d like to young, old, regardless of where you’re at, in terms of leadership, and I use that term loosely, because you know, the coaching the leadership, you lead people, you manage money in processes, you say that, again, you lead people, but you’re in the manage money and processes. And that’s how I try to do things, I think you have to develop the relationship with people, 


Also two if someone tells you great leaders are born, don’t listen to anything they say after that, because there may be some natural tendencies that you possess as a leader, but you need to refine those skills, just like anything else. And that , to me, is the biggest takeaway. And, you know, I learned that from a mentor early on, you know, that you have to the leaders are made, they are not in, you know, and then, you know, we talked about earlier to to grow, but you know, step outside of your comfort zone. I mean, you know, this is a, I think like most people I struggle with talking about myself, this wasn’t easy. But, you know, I hope that, you know, someone can benefit from what we’re saying. And then, you know, I think stepping outside of that comfort zone does allow the growth, but it also gives you an opportunity that you may have not even experienced before.


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:13  

Yeah, well, I think those are wonderful pieces, especially that part about leaders, you know, they’re not born, they’re made. And this is, as you know, a lot of what my next book covers, there’s so much bullshit around that people think that if they don’t have this unique set of traits, or characteristics that they’re in trouble, and they’re not, you know, like, life’s gonna throw you a wide variety of curveballs regardless and for what it’s worth, few people have helped me navigate those curveballs within you. Thank you, I appreciate your friendship. I look forward to having you back on 


Matt Morrison  1:02:13  

you know, this has been a blast. I hope I can make a return appearance.


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:49  

And again, if you want to learn more about Matt, you want to engage with him more go to We have a request form, you can certainly request Matt as your coach, I promise you, you are not gonna regret it. He’s tremendous, as are all of our other coaches across the world who want to give you guys perspective. Matt, I want to thank you again for coming on.


Matt Morrison  1:03:08  

Thank you, brother. I appreciate you for having me. And it’s been an honor.


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:13  

And all of you please make sure to share this episode tell a friend to tell a friend and if there’s something that hit home with you reach out to us at That’s for myself, Matt Morrison and the rest of the art of coaching family. We’ll talk to you next time.

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