“I don’t have time to relax! There’s just too much to do.”
These days, busyness seems to be a status symbol; A measuring stick for productivity and progress. But as with many things, more isn’t always better.
Whether the urge to always be productive or busy is a result of your physiology, the way you were raised, or a part of the culture you find yourself in daily, today’s episode will debunk the busyness epidemic and help you find a more efficient path to producing your best work.
We also cover:
- The 3 reasons we seek constant productivity & struggle to relax (4:30)
- The surprising benefits of idleness and boredom (27:05)
- Strategies to produce your best work (44:05)
- Specific strategies to help you spend your time on things that matter (47:35)
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TRANSCRIPTION
Brett Bartholomew 0:11
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Welcome to the Art of Coaching podcasts. I’m Brett Bartholomew, and at a young age, poor communication nearly cost me my life. Now, I help others navigate the gray area of social interaction, power dynamics and communication so they can become more adaptable leaders, regardless of their profession, age or situation, this podcast is for everybody who is fascinated with solving people problems. So if you’re the no nonsense type who appreciates frank conversations, advice you can put to use immediately and learning how others navigate the messy realities of leadership, you’re in the right place. I’m glad that you’re joining us. Let’s dive in. You.
Welcome back to another episode of The Art of Coaching podcast today we are going to get all into why people struggle to relax busyness as a status symbol. What happens to us when we fall into these societal norms or unrealistic expectations that we put on ourselves, about being busy, about being productive, about making sure every moment of every day of our lives is jam packed with something that’s going to make us better, smarter, wiser, or whatever.
Bottom line we always want to do stuff that’s going to help you get out of your own way. And we’re going to talk about this in this episode, just how often this desire for achievement or progress or lifelong learnership can get us in our own way, can make us actually regress from what we’re trying to achieve. So many of you have reached out, and if you don’t know, you can always reach out to us at artofcoaching.com/question, with things that kind of boil down to this, and I am joined by my co host today. Ali Kershner, Ali, welcome back.
Ali Kershner 3:46
Thank you.
Brett Bartholomew 3:47
And when we introduced this, when you and I were talking about this, and you brought this to the table. So thank you for doing that. You mentioned a story that could really cast this in a relatable light and help us learn a little bit more about you, but also give something that I really think the listeners could gravitate and attach to, would you mind going into that a little bit
Ali Kershner 4:05
Absolutely. So, yeah, the impetus for this episode in particular, honestly, I feel like this episode is for me. This might be a little bit of a therapy session for my, definitely my past self, but even part of my current self. But this is something that I have been thinking about for a long time, and it stemmed from something that happened starting or I became aware of it in college.
So when I was in college, I was in a relationship with somebody, and I’m an achievement drive. So if you’ve taken our drives quiz, you understand that this kind of person, myself included, always needs to feel like they’re making progress or doing something at the end of the day, when they lay their head down the pill, they need to feel like they’ve pushed the ball forward in some way,
And that’s just me like. That is how I’ve always been. I don’t we can dig deeper on that. As we go through the episode. But I was in a relationship with somebody who was very different from that, and I will literally never forget, at some point, this person turned to me and said, Ali, you really struggle to relax. And I was like, No, I don’t What are you talking about? I relax all the time. I watch YouTube videos.
I don’t know I like to watch documentaries. I do, I relax. I can chill, you know, and I got really defensive about it, because, like one, it felt like a critique. And, you know, ever since then, I’ve really tried to analyze that comment. Because, like one, what made that person say that? And two, like, Why do I if I do struggle to relax? Like, why do I do that? And is that something that’s even wrong, right?
Like, okay, let’s say I do struggle to relax. Is that something that I should try to fix? So that’s sort of the origin story for why I’m interested in this and something that I’ve been trying to pick apart myself for a long time. I don’t know. Does that resonate at all with you? Or do you have any people in your life that struggle with that as well?
Brett Bartholomew 6:08
Yeah. I mean, without a doubt, I think anybody, first off, thank you for sharing that. And second, anybody that says they don’t struggle with that isn’t just really being honest, and there’s myriad reasons we’ll get into in a moment, but just at a superficial level, a lot of it is inveterate to the fact that we’re always told the world’s changing, more information comes at us. I think it was around 2012 and this will be tough to fact checks. I’d have to go back.
But it was Eric Schmidt who made the quote at one point. It might have even been sooner than that. It might have been 2003 he had said we were basically absorbing 23 newspapers worth of information a day now, whether that’s passively, whether that’s actively, and so when we’re constantly fed this message that there’s more going on in the world and there’s more to learn and so many different professions have to have certifications, licensures, there’s school that’s thrown at us and constantly changing, by the way, standards for schooling.
It’s just It starts at a really young age. I mean, I even think about it now as a father hearing you see so many parents, their kids schedules are overpacked, and you think, all right, if I don’t get them into sports, is that gonna, you know, kind of give them some kind of delay, socially or athletically? And Liz and I tend to take a little bit more of a laid back stance to that. We want our three year old to be a three year old, right?
We signed him up for soccer just so he can kind of get around other kids again and all that. But there’s other parents. It’s like, all right, he’s got to be in this school. He’s got to be this he’s got an entrance exam when he’s eight. And kids don’t just get to pick up a stick and look at dirt and think, I have a stick and I have some dirt. What might I do with this stick in this dirt?
And then, you know, the next thing you know, they’re being told that they’ve got to take AP classes. So a story that I can relate to on that is just, I remember in high school, I’m still a sophomore at this time, people are asking me, are you signing up for AP Physics, AP this? And I’m like, Whoa. Like, wait, why? And they’re like, Well, you can get college credit for it. And I’m like, I’m worried about my baseball game tonight. I didn’t even think about these things.
So all of that to just say, if we just stop and take a look at the reality of life today in many cultures. And of course, there’s some nuances here, if you’re looking at cultures in Norway and New Zealand and plenty others. But in American culture, it’s like it starts so early. This idea that we’ve got ahead, got to get ahead, stay ahead, and it just perpetuates from there. I’ll stop there for a moment to see if there’s anything you want to interject or add into
Ali Kershner 8:32
it’s so funny you say that I completely agree, and I would venture a guess, a very educated guess, that many of our feelings about this stem from our parents and the way we grow up. Because I was that kid who was shuttled from, I mean, I literally remember we called them triathlon days, where I was shuttled from three different practice, like, to and from three different practices, doing my homework in the car, in between, eating dinner in between the second two practices.
And, you know, like you said, the expectation was there from the beginning. And I mean, I think my family even was at a higher level, because, well, this, my mom would probably kill me if I share this. But too late, we describe our family as having a very particular issue called pointy butt syndrome, where you we can’t sit still for too long. Like we always have to be doing something next, right?
Like, we’re not the kind of family that goes on vacation and sits the beach and sits on margaritas, like, or the family that’s like, Okay, guys, we’ve got zip lining at 8am we’re going down to the beach and we’re gonna build sandcastles, and they’ve gotta be at least three feet tall by 12. You know, lunches at one. I mean, that’s just the way that I grew up, and I enjoyed that. Like, it’s not like I didn’t enjoy that, but like having vacationed with other people and other families now I’m like, oh, yeah, not everybody has that.
Brett Bartholomew 10:01
Well, I think want to make it clear with this. Nobody’s saying that if you’re busy and you have a full life and you’re doing these things, these things are bad. What we need to be aware of is, like anything, there’s a range, and you have to understand why you’re doing it, and societal expectations can be interesting. There’s a really good article, and we’ve shared it on our newsletter before. If you guys aren’t on the newsletter, we share stuff like this all the time.
Just go to artofcoaching.com/begin and it was entitled, conspicuous consumption of time, when busyness and lack of leisure time become a status symbol. And in our private conversation, you and I, which ties into this article, we talked about societal expectations, and you can feel like you want to keep up with the Joneses. And I love that, because there’s this one quote that the article mentions, and this was from a Super Bowl commercial from Cadillac. And I’ll try to do my commercial voice, ‘Other countries, they work, they stroll home, they stop by the cafe. They take August Off, off. Why aren’t you like that? Why aren’t we like that? Because we’re crazy, driven, hardworking believers. That’s why.
And that’s really the start of this social expectation, this idea that it’s not just more is better, it’s more effort is better. More work is better, more information is better. And so when we think of conspicuous consumption, it’s just a fancy term that kind of lends itself to all right, my neighbor bought a better car, or they bought a boat, or they did this. But really, we’ve now transferred that from things that lead to these status symbols into just these moments and how we spend our moments and how we fill our lives.
And I think there’s also just some inherent insecurity that, let’s say the vacation example, and I’m not, I don’t know your family like this. I’m just using a general talking point here. And I know I feel like this. I had saved up all this money to go to Greece with Liz. You do feel like, all right, there’s things that I want to do, and then there’s things that I feel like we have to do because we’re in Greece, and it’ll just feel weird, and not necessarily, if somebody says, Oh, what? You didn’t go to Crete, or you didn’t go to this. It’s just like, I feel like we’re here. I don’t know if we’re gonna come back. And so that guilt or that, it’s not really FOMO. It’s a lot of unique emotions that come to the surface, you know. So anyway, I want to turn it to you before I go on with this.
Ali Kershner 12:14
Yeah, I do think I would echo exactly what you said in that so much of where we get this comes from expectations that we see around us, societal expectations, as you meant, and when you see other people being busy, and that’s the culture that we live in. I mean, sorry, we just live in a culture that, as you said, busyness is a status symbol. And like, if you’re not doing those things and you’re not checking the boxes and getting doing the things you do feel this FOMO.
You feel like, Oh, I’m missing out on something. Or maybe that fun thing, or maybe that thing that will relax me is just around the corner, or that’s the thing that I need to do. And even that can kind of perpetuate self but anyway, yeah, keep going
Brett Bartholomew 12:55
Yeah. Well, and I was going to touch just one for my international friends, because they jokingly like to give us Americans crap, and they should wear a mess for many reasons. I mean, every country’s got its thing, but even friends of mine that are in more lax cultures. I was talking to one not too long ago that said, even though that culture that they live within is relaxed, and I would look at this as what we’re talking about in some of our work as like local culture, their work culture isn’t some of them play or work for high performance clubs or organizations where it doesn’t matter where they are geographically in the world, that internal workplace is stressful.
And then we both had our fair share of friends that say, well, not me, not where I live, not where I work. Well, then they get another job, and that’s a wake up call as well. You know, one other point that you brought up that I thought was really, really good, and I don’t, I think it’s a little bit counter conventional. We live in a world that makes it hard to unwind.
And why I say counter conventional is leisure is seemingly around us everywhere we have more TV channels and streaming services, and, you know, people can go glamping and whatever. There’s all these, you know, Airbnb and experiences, but it’s still a lot of noise, it’s still a lot of pressure. It’s a lot of voices saying you should do this, you should do that, you should do this. I’d love for you to touch on that a little bit, and just if anything has made it hard for you to unwind, and that can feed into societal expectations, your own expectations, or anything else that you just feel, that you’ve noticed throughout as you’ve continued to grow and mature.
Ali Kershner 14:25
So really, yeah, it’s a really interesting point. It’s almost, we do have this culture of, like, you know, taking time for yourself. And what am I trying to say? Like, self care. And all of these things have been popularized for good reason. We do need to take care of ourselves, but they’re all around us. And so I think the feeling is that you have to, that is how you have to relax. Those are the things that have been set forth for you to consume in that way. And I’ll be honest with you many of the things that people traditionally say should relax you or should bring you this feeling of calm or peace. Don’t for me
And we were having this conversation because, you know, I’m not a huge movie watcher, and I think a lot of it actually stems from that very discussion or story that I told in the beginning where this person who said, Ali, you have a problem relaxing. The way that they would relax is they’d sit on the couch all day long and watch movie marathons. And in order to feel like I was then fulfilling their idea of relaxation, I would sit on the couch and watch movie marathons when that was in no way relaxing to me.
And so I now sort of associate this like negative feeling towards watching movies, one because I’ve somehow built up in my mind that they have no function. And that’s a problem in itself we can touch on later. Like to me, fun and function. Like Fun could be a root cause of the or root of the word function, you know, like to me, like that. Maybe those two words are similar, but to other people, there should be no purpose to having fun, if you will.
But like the whether it’s meditation or I’ve tried all these things, some of those very typical ones, and the ones that people tout the highest don’t relax me. It’s some of the things that you might not think, like, I love grocery shopping. Like that might be so weird to hear, but like that relaxes me. I go in there and I’m like, Okay, it’s a kind of fun like, I get to try things. I get a look at it. It’s a stimulating experience, but I can zone out listen to my podcast, or whatever I’m doing, and like that relaxes me.
And that might sound absolutely asinine to somebody else, and like, literally, like hell to many people, but that is where I think sometimes we need to recalibrate. And we could talk about this as like a, you know, a call to action at the end, but to me, that’s how I’ve struggled in the past to figure out where I fit in.
Brett Bartholomew 17:00
Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. Just to touch on your movie watching thing for a moment. I think it’s important to acknowledge too, no matter what we do, whether it’s working in our yard or working around the house or going for a walk or watching movies, there’s always going to be a dose response relationship there is in there, right? Like I’m somebody that I do appreciate movies and screenwriting and the story arcs and structure, but much like you, if I would go on vacation with my family as a kid or even just now, when I go home for the holidays, there’s only so much of it I can take.
There’s only so much of it, and that is mainly just because I’m a pretty kinetic person. And mind you, we talk about virtue becomes vice as well being that kinetic oriented person has also changed some things that I found relaxing, I very much. Am grateful every day I’m able to get up and walk and I have the physical capacity to train and work out. But there’s also some days that I maybe don’t want to lift weights. I’d rather hit the heavy bag. And there are some things that used to be stress relievers to me and relaxing to me that I don’t want to always do the same way anymore, you know?
And then so there’s always a dose response. There’s the rhythms to life. I’m very much, if I heard you correctly, did you say just the classical idea of meditation? Is it really something that you take to before I go on?
Ali Kershner 18:13
Yeah
Brett Bartholomew 18:13
Yeah, I’m the same way, and that’s great. My neighbor, she’s like, I go up into my closet, I start five minutes every day with this. That’s abhorrently awful to me. I love that. She loves that. For me, just going on a walk, motion is relaxing. And by the way, there’s something that people can relate to here as well. Our child, there’s a reason they have those swings for babies. Our child would nap unless he was kind of in a moving car for a while. Motion is relaxing.
But whatever any of you like doing, there’s a dose response piece to it. I think the problem becomes, and I want to be purposeful with the language. It does become a problem when you are literally forcing yourself to do something that is quote, unquote productive at all times, you do just have to wonder without getting psychoanalytical or Freudian, or anything like that. Why is that? And one other point I wanted to touch on, before I turn it back to you, is there is this impression management.
We like to be seen as productive people. We want to be socially approved. And this ties into kind of some notes that we have in the outline. But it’s like, what is it about me that isn’t good enough? Just like, chilling for a moment, why do I always have to prove to myself that I can do this and I can do this, I can so I do think that there’s some folks out there just that just need to stop and think about that and say, All right, we had one person that said they have trouble turning off at work because they’re constantly trying or sorry at home, because they’re constantly trying to prove themselves at work and allow that bleeds over.
And I think that can happen the other way. Some people that have problems at home, which is natural all of us, struggle in relationships, they can start to turn to work. So all we’re calling for here is an awareness and an understanding of self concept and a root cause philosophy that. Makes you just think, are you subconsciously seeking approval from others, or yourself? A little bit of that is natural, but it shouldn’t be the driving force.
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Are you subconsciously seeking approval for other, from others, or yourself? A little bit of that as natural, but it shouldn’t be the driving force. Ali,
Ali Kershner 22:43
yeah. And to that point, there was a study that showed that when you are so focused on then having to relax, that relaxation then becomes another high pressure stressor on your life, and it’s like you can’t win, like life is impossible. Gosh, I kind of want to move on to another point of like, where this pressure, feeling of like, or why it’s hard to unwind and relax comes from, unless you have anything on the societal expectation and idleness aversion front,
Brett Bartholomew 23:13
always a lot. I think it’ll come back. Let’s go on to main points, because there’s some really good stuff coming
Ali Kershner 23:17
Yeah. So I think for me, for sure, as we’ve already alluded to, you know, measuring up to other people in society in general is definitely the root of a lot of why I feel this pressure to not relax, maybe or struggle to relax. But I think one major thing that I’ve realized about myself recently is this feeling that if I relax or if I take time to do something for myself that feels very selfish or even frivolous, I think that’s a really good word to describe the feeling that it makes me feel, will I and this is going to sound kind of really deep and morbid, but like, Will I die before I have a chance to do the things that I’ve wanted to accomplish.
And if I’m taking time away from things that would be progress and and learning and growth and producing and creating, would I miss out on, like, what I’ve been sat on opportunities to do that, and then, like, waste time doing something else that feels more frivolous to me? And then when I die, not having done the things that I really want to do and that I know there’s a lot to unpack there.
Brett Bartholomew 24:25
No, it’s great
Ali Kershner 24:27
But, and this is the conversation that we’ve had a lot, so I’d be curious if, maybe if you can even just, like, walk people through what you’ve told me in the past about that, because I know we’ve had this conversation about, like, why? Actually, that is not that’s sort of a lie that I’ve told myself.
Brett Bartholomew 24:43
Yeah. I mean, there’s a mix here of some just real world. The language I tend to speak is common sense, so I’m going to speak that to the audience a little bit here first, and then I’ll back it up with some rational persuasion here. But we all know that it’s really hard to generate ideas and thoughts and connect the dots between. Seemingly disparate ideas, if you just never give your mind a chance to rest.
The mind is always working, but there is a limit, just like any muscle, any organ, any anything, any computer, right of what it can process, and so output and so this is where something that I think our background in strength and conditioning is really interesting, because we know that the body doesn’t recover from stress unless you stop training. Right? Training is the tear down. It’s where the muscle to the tissue and all that like it needs to go into a state of replenishment and repair to supercompensate all that jargon aside, all we’re saying is, if you’re constantly an input, input, input, stimulus, stimulus, stimulus, neural just all like you’re you’re never gonna your mind is never gonna have a chance to do what it does in the background.
It’s got all these ingredients, a lot of the inputs, but it can never actually cook a meal. And the best tasting food cooks the slowest. For a reason. There’s a process to it. Now, just looking at from getting out of the physiology here for a moment, if we look at some of the greatest creators of all time. And I always tend to go back to like, a Da Vinci and a Franklin. And there’s so many other examples out there. They talk about the benefit. It was the opposite. Wasted time was a commodity.
Leisure time was amazing, like, if you had a chance to be leisurely, that was incredible. I mean, talk about waste yards are a status symbol yards, the front yard and backyard was created as a way to say, I have this land that I have. I don’t need to do anything with it. Harvest nothing, aren’t I rich and wealthy and cool. And then we’ve switched it, I mean, people, if anybody, and I recommend you read it. It’s on our reading list. Walter Isaacson’s book on Da Vinci he took great pleasure just sitting and watching people pass by in the courtyard.
And this also feeds into one of the greatest screenwriter Robert McKee, says the best research is just real life and watching people and thinking. But when we don’t allow ourselves to do it, we numb ourselves to the ability to produce these outputs. And that’s where the you see this interplay between this insecurity. And if it’s not insecurity, for some that’s fine, but the big five personality traits, which are well established in the research, by the way, this isn’t pseudoscience, right?
Neuroticism, people that have trouble kind of relaxing, tend to be high on neuroticism and relatively low on traits of openness to experience and agreeableness, and that creates those issues. So overall, just saying, when your mind doesn’t have a chance to rest, it can’t go into these incubation periods, what I deem warm shower moments, these things where it just comes to you, it’s never going to be generative. Do you want to be generative, or do you want to always be taking this in?
And the last thing I’ll say is there’s a whole a lot of money’s been made off this. A lot of money has been made off getting people to feel less overwhelmed. So think about how genius that is. And I say that in quotes, certain people are saying, Hey, do you feel overwhelmed? Do you feel stressed out? Do you feel this? Come and learn this and learn this, so we can give you more to be overwhelmed and stressed out and then ascend to our level two program.
So I think just people don’t really want to be told, Hey, do less. Ruminate more, experience the world, generate your own thoughts. Just stop for a bit. And when we get older, we do that, don’t we? And that ties into what you said about like, Man, I feel like I have this limited time to do this and that. And as we get older, people are like, I wish I actually would have, you know, had more unique experiences and wasted a little bit more time and enjoyed the ride a bit more. So I’ll stop there, because that’s a lot packed into it. But hopefully that kind of touched on some things that were accurate in terms of our conversations and recall.
Ali Kershner 28:50
Yeah, you made me think of something I haven’t I never put this, these two ideas together before. I’ve always thought that, you know, people who just constantly fill time with more stuff, or even people who, like never want to be alone and just like be bored, myself included, obviously, are possibly even subconsciously scared in some way of being alone or of facing that moment where you’re like, who, who am I like, right? Like, and having these deeper thoughts and conversations, like, if you’re constantly inputting it.
So in the same way that somebody fills their time with more activities and busyness, so as to avoid being alone with their thoughts, I think we do that with information, so as again, to avoid having to do the deep, hard work on ourselves, right? And you can avoid that by continuing to put input, input. And you know, science has shown, like all these neuroscientists, there’s one Alicia Wolf from RPI she talks about how boredom is absolutely essential for improving even social connections, because we like, as you said, empty space, empty time. Our brain needs those moments to improve neural connections and create neural connections between stuff, and if you are constantly just feeding it more, never has time to digest it.
Brett Bartholomew 30:25
Yeah. Well, touching on that, I’m glad that you brought up boredom, because Liz and I were talking about this the other day, boredom. And if what I mean, man, if I was a researcher, I might look into this. Boredom is critical for child development as well in terms of creative play. And that’s kind of where I started with talking about, if you look at kids, if they’re not borred what’s the point of an imagination? You know? And we’ve done this with Bronson. We’ve taken certain toys out of his toy room and said, Hey, let’s see what we can do with just these two things. And that’s divergent thinking again.
And all of a sudden, I’m like, Could this be a hat? Could this be a sled? Could we do this? And sometimes he’s like, No, it couldn’t be that. I mean, we had a Dixie cup. We had two Dixie cups, and he’s making it a sled and a hat and a rocket cannon for his arm. So you have to have boredom for that imagination to take place. Because imagination happens when it’s just we have time to wonder. We have time to sit at the park and think that boredom is also the same thing that, oh, my goodness, people talk about resilience and adaptability.
How do you learn to cope in this this compliments your point exactly with we want to be numb to our own thoughts and have this analgesic of from that self, that that voice. How do you ever learn to deal with uncomfortable feelings, self doubt, loneliness, questions of who you are and what you can tolerate and go through if you don’t ever allow yourself to time to do that. Right? So children at the youngest age need to be introspective, they need to be imaginative, they need to be curious. And if it’s just constant inputs, that doesn’t happen, and that’s, by the way, why so many people look at screen time.
And I think that’s where people get the movie thing. And all that mixed up is they’re confusing trash content with good content. But there’s bad book, there’s bad experiences of all these kinds of things. It also just promotes independence. And I think if I could touch on this for a moment, it’s a particularly sore spot, because as much as people complain about the amount of gurus out there? Well, there’s a lot of folks that they have themselves to blame, and I mean this lovingly, but just realistic like you seek out all these things that keep you from having independent thought.
I mean, you see it firsthand when we do our workshops, the type of people that come to our workshops don’t just mindlessly, want to be told what to do. They want to be a part of that. They want to have some autonomy. They want to have that interaction. But many people the larger education industry, it’s like, let me just sit here and watch trash TV over and over again, and that’s nothing on the presenters. I don’t mean it like that. It’s just it’s episode after episode, speaker after speaker.
There’s nothing that actually requires them to say, Okay, now take those thoughts and let’s go get to work. And then we wonder, Oh, why don’t we have these skills? So, yeah, that’s why I just, I don’t think that idleness, aversion and all these things can be mentioned without the term numbness, or numb, or some term of that analgesic, just like you have that term like frivolous. There are certain terms that go hand in hand with this, but hard to be an independent, imaginative thinker if every moment is busy, busy, busy.
Ali Kershner 33:32
Yeah. Do you mind if I touch on one more thing that I think is at the root of this issue?
Brett Bartholomew 33:39
No, absolutely.
Ali Kershner 33:40
So I think what something we already touched on is fundamental to the third point that I wanted to bring up on this, which is, I think for people who struggle with to relax or to, you know, not be constantly producing or inputting is a desire for control. And the more I learn about myself, the more I realize that I do seek that control in many aspects of my life, and I think that relaxation, truly letting go boredom, all of these things have no schedule, no end point, no I mean, unless you obviously set A timer, I’m gonna be bored for 20 20, minutes
There’s no output or no, sorry, no outcome that’s been determined already, or no goal that I’m seeking when I purposely just like try to relax. And I think that to somebody who desires control, this giving up control or letting go and just seeing what comes of this rabbit hole I go down, or this time I’m going to spend with friends, even that that stuff is good for you, but like having to just like relax and give up the reins to that and just let what comes come is can be stress inducing to people who like to know what’s coming and like to plan out their days and and like to have that feeling of like, okay, I know by the end of the day, I’ll have done this. And I think that speaks to a security driven person, which obviously many of us have big or small pieces of. But I think that some of that is like, I just like to know what I’m going to do that day?
Brett Bartholomew 35:21
Yeah, I think the problem with that becomes one. I want to acknowledge that that’s perfectly normal and valid, and it makes a lot of sense, and we have to have days like that. The problem with that becomes, is you can get to the end of the day and know what you did that day, but you don’t really know what you might have done that day if you allowed a detour.
And I think an example of this is I got incredibly annoyed probably two weeks ago when I had a meeting pop up right when I was back in a groove, of writing my new book. It can be very hard for me to get in that groove, but I was in it now, and it’s mainly hard because I have trouble just sitting down and being and because my I just like being, I like moving. And I looked at this, I’m like, I do not want to get on this. I’m on this train of thought. I need to work out this big idea. And admittedly, I got onto this conversation, which was a phone call, pretty annoyed.
Now I’m asked that, well, you know, I put on my professional face, but, and it wasn’t anything this person did. I saw it as an impediment in my schedule and like, I need this moment, especially because, as you know, I am, and this is not a status symbol thing. We are time poor right now. There’s a lot going on that we can’t reveal for the audience at this moment now, but we will. And all of a sudden, it was listening to this person. They were talking for the first 10 minutes, and I was kind of still in my mind about what I was writing.
Then I started to connect, oh, what they’re talking about is tangentially kind of what I’m writing about right now. Then I started internalizing, still listening, but internalizing. And I said, I said this. I was like, hey, that’s interesting that you mentioned that, do you ever think it could be caused by this or this, or do you feel like any of this seeps in? And they’re like, Yes, I was and that led to a discussion that the minute that was done, I came back and had that figured out, and that’s happened.
So I want to state something clear here. Some some people would listen to what you said, or what any of us say, a version of myself in the past would say, I have this time, and I want to accomplish it in this time. And they’d be like, Ah, you get older, that’ll figure itself. I think the age thing is bullshit. I think what it really is is that goes away or gets settled a little bit as you just have more exposure and experience to different what’s the phrase I want to look at?
I think when you’ve just had more of those moments where this interruption, this unproductive thing, this impediment, this annoyance, actually became the entry point in and I know all the obstacle becomes the way, and I’m passionate about this, because I’ve really gotten better at this the last two years. I’ve gotten better at it the last few years where I’m like, All right, I just have to submit. I think it was a combination of parenthood and entrepreneurship and all these things that just I didn’t get my way,
And a loss workout that would have made me just hysterically angry last night led to me getting on the phone and venting to a friend about something that gave me an idea for content today. So I think people just have to trust themselves, and this is what I mean worth it comes with exposure, because age and exposure, as you know, are not necessarily the same thing. There’s plenty of 50 and 60 year olds that they cooped up in the house and 18 year olds that travel the world, you get faith in yourself that you can turn shit into sugar, you know?
And it doesn’t come the way you want it. But most good content doesn’t, you know? But it is still you do to your point. You’ve got to have days where you have control. It’s just got to be a process. And then there’s got to be days where you’re like, Okay, buckle up, and here we go, and let’s at least make something out of it.
Ali Kershner 38:45
Yeah, you nailed it. You nailed it. I mean, if I look back on the best days of my life, right, like the days where I was just like, God, that was so fun, or like that really made it that that was a pivotal day. It was because something unexpected or spontaneous happened, right? Because that forced me to think differently or to think harder about something, or to make a decision, or to go with the flow, or to try something that I literally would have never tried before.
And those are the moments that end up mattering more. Like you talk about the power of a moment in your life, like, if you only ever stick to your routine and the control you never let the space, you never allow for space where the things that could change your life would occur. And I think this, you know, we talk about how, like much of life is about finding your purpose, right?
This kind of nebulous thing that is that we’re all kind of seeking, and I think we spend so much energy on trying to find it like, what is this purpose that I’m after, as opposed to doing things we enjoy and trusting, trusting, I think that’s the key word, like you said that we will attract the things that we’re meant to attract by just. Doing the things that we enjoy and that we’re good at and that people need from us.
Brett Bartholomew 40:04
Yeah, well, it’s like summer days when you were a kid, you started off and you’re like, oh, let’s play park. Let’s play baseball the park today at 10. Next thing you know, by 3pm you’re at the public pool. You’re doing this. Before it’s dinner time, you’re exploring the creek down the road. You come back and your jeans are torn and every and you had a day, you know? It’s like those sandlot day, like, what just had? That’s what being a kid was all about. And it’s so critical in shaping that.
And so, yeah, it’s, it’s interesting, and I think some of it also comes to laziness of connection, just going back to that conspicuous consumption thing a little bit, it used to be scarcity of goods, and now it’s like scarcity of individuals to a degree. And that’s something that the article talks about. And what I mean by this is, well, which way do I want to go? I think that points pretty straightforward. We think that it increases our value if we’re, it’s like, I can’t do this right now. I can’t do that. But the main thing, try having a conversation. Try having conversations.
Do this. Go a week and see how many people, when you catch up with them, and you’ve got to talk to some people that you haven’t heard from in a while and say, How are you doing? And they’re like, Oh, good. Just busy. How many times people are like, you know, just busy doing this. Things are good. Things are busy. I asked her friend the other day, what’s new with you, and maybe I shouldn’t ask what I go or what’s old with you.
It doesn’t have to be new or old. He’s like good coaching. Practice is full and busy. If you get holiday cards we were throwing away because we’re doing some spring cleaning. We were throwing away a lot of the holiday cards that we get and we accumulate over the years. We all appreciate them. So nobody take that any kind of way. Just what is it? It’s May when we’re
Ali Kershner 41:37
How dare you do you know how long it took to create that card?
Brett Bartholomew 41:40
Well, this is a hoarder. She won’t let me get by with it either. But you look at it and everybody, which, again, is normal, it starts off with being like, it was 2023. Was a busy year for the blankies. You know, they did this and this and and Becky’s doing an internship, and Jimmy has got a car. And then, you know what? He’s learning how to fly. And, by the way, did I it’s like, Yo, like, it would be a really boring card. I guess if it’s like, everybody’s just chilling hanging out, but we’re healthy. How are you, you know, let us know. But so it becomes,
Ali Kershner 42:11
that’s what my Christmas card this year is gonna be. I’d love it. I love it hanging out. Just learn that I’m blonde, you know
Brett Bartholomew 42:18
And so you mix these things up with if you can see how many conversations you can have that don’t gravitate towards the weather or being busy, you’re gonna struggle, because they’re just natural connecting. They’re low effort, cognitive ease, simple things that people can talk about. And because we’re such tribal creatures. We want that, or better yet, let’s. And I know I’m segwaying here, but I want you to touch on this. Let’s say somebody changes their job.
Let’s say they changed their job, left a job, quit it, whatever different job. We can even feel guilt about that. And so this isn’t even now, just busy. It’s an association with something like, Oh, hey, I’m actually thinking about leaving my job and doing something else. Something wrong with you. What the hell do you mean? Change you? What are you going to do in the meantime? Are you keeping busy? Because if you’re, if you’re not keeping busy and you’re instead just thinking about what you might want to do to make yourself happy in the next job, that’s a problem.
And no, like, it’s okay for people to take a pause, reset, think, and nothing’s wrong with them. This is what’s called life. So I don’t know if you’ve ever seen that, but people feel guilt about that
Ali Kershner 43:32
Well, and like, gosh, I’ve even struggled to just actually not feel guilty when I’m on vacation. Everyone knows I’m on vacation. Nothing’s expected of me because I’ve told everyone I’m on vacation, and I’ve done the work ahead of time to make sure my team is set up for success, and I still feel this pressure to be doing or seen doing something. And it’s, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of sad, like I that makes me a little bit sad.
Brett Bartholomew 44:05
it’s hard to when you’re somebody that builds up that competence. Like, if you remember when, when we were at Greece, the very first message we got when we got off the plane was from you, like, you had a message, and it was like, hey, oh, we’re trying to unwind. And the other hand, it’s like, no, this is what we asked for. We built up this confidence. Our team needs this and so that that’s fine, right?
There’s this balance there that happens. I think the trouble becomes when it’s just like, you can’t detach at any moment. It doesn’t even allow people to do their best work. Can we talk about that? Because you mentioned where I love this idea, like, let’s say you just took a week off. All right? Ali, you’re gone. Bamoose, generally, if you do manage your time or your leisure or whatever, appropriately, by the time you’re done with vacation, you’re ready to hit it again.
Ali Kershner 44:50
Oh yeah.
Brett Bartholomew 44:51
You know, you’ve had enough food. You’ve had enough relax like and so I would challenge the listeners and feel free to come back with this if you want. If you’re. Dedicated to doing your best work, I would argue that, in some ways, shapes and forms, it is literally dependent on you turning off and going the other way for a while. Would you agree?
Ali Kershner 45:11
Yep, yeah, easily this year. I mean, like in a similar fashion this year, I stopped reading books and started producing more content, not because I and don’t get me wrong, I understand that’s not like relaxation, but it’s switching the input to output ratio, and I think that is massive in terms of one clarifying thought, to allowing your brain to finally use the connections that it’s made, and just giving yourself space and time, but I totally agree.
By the end of vacation to come circle back to your point. By then the vacation, I am so ready. By the end of a shower, I’m jumping out of the shower to take a note. I’m like, Oh my God. I thought of something when I walk and I don’t listen to something, which is unusual, but happens. It’s usually because my AirPods are dead. I’m like, Oh my gosh, I pull out the Notes app on my phone. I’m like, I had an idea for this. I had a newsletter, you know, a thought for here. My best work comes when I’m forcibly right, because I won’t usually do it myself, forced to take a second away from that thing that I was doing.
Brett Bartholomew 46:16
And I’m glad you mentioned that, because happiness in a large, in a large way, your work and your life should join together. When you say, I jump out of the shower and I took a note, I do this all the time, you could argue that’s what we created Art of Coaching off of is I had all these ideas that had these common through lines and themes, and everything I experienced in life was stuff that I wanted to talk about at work.
And I think that that’s just on a bit of a tangent. That’s something that people can use. It’s like, Are you constantly trying to escape your work to the point where you don’t when you do take this type off, have generative ideas that come back to it, if you’re always trying to make yourself feel numb. But the concept should make sense because, and this is tongue in cheek, right? It’s meant to be dad joke.
If distance makes the heart grow fonder in relationships. Well, turning off makes the work go harder. You know, it’s like you’ve got to create distance with these things like and I don’t see how anybody can do great work if they don’t by the time we’re done with this crazy period, and I get back into writing my next chapter, and I feel that now the anxiety is I can taste it in my throat, the words want to come out into my fingertips on the page, but they can’t for another week or so. And when it goes it’s going to be, everybody, shut up, leave me alone and just keep going,
Ali Kershner 47:32
you know. So I think that you’re touching on something really key, and I want to kind of make it tactical at some point for the listeners. So I think what we’ve been talking about right now is this idea of sort of like deliberate rest, if you will, which you can still put within constraints. Because, you know, be like, Oh, deliberate rest. Like, oh, my god. That sounds maybe terrible to some people, or sounds like, I don’t need to be deliberate about it.
But I think it’s literally just scheduling into your day periods of walking or showering, hopefully you’re doing that anyway, or whatever that deliberate rest is for you. It might be working out. It might be doing something else. It might be watching TV. I don’t know what that is, but build that in that is an actionable step that I would challenge everyone to take is look at your day and make sure you have at least one, if not several instances of short, confined, not just like prolonged, hour long rest periods,
But like little ones baked in, where you allow yourself to do something that’s not input that allows you to maybe make some connections that you have been like your brain has been working in the background on but you haven’t. They haven’t they haven’t come to the surface, because you’re just like, berating it with more information this whole time. Anything on that? Or do you have another, you know, another suggestion for what we can do instead to solve this problem?
Brett Bartholomew 48:52
Yeah, no, I think just going back to another suggestion is, and we’ve alluded to it, it’s come out in the wash a bit, but audit what you’re doing and ask if it’s time well spent. But also audit the definition of that. What is your actual measure of time well spent? Because it should not be muy acupado, right? It should not be like, I’m just that time is well spent. Like, you can waste time being productive. You have to get into the actual definitions of what you think, how you’re spending it, what you’re being productive on.
These things are all subjective, and you need to think all right, because you’ll just start it doesn’t have to be outcome oriented. It doesn’t have to be I mowed the lawn, I fixed the cabinet, I did these things. You have to actually ask yourself, do you enjoy it, or are you doing it just to confirm this identity, this self concept, this whole, I think, a great example you put down that I see constantly, because it’s a big part of when people reach out to me for mentoring. Do you want to write a book because of the accomplishment and some of the stigma?
Which stigma works both ways of it? Or do you just like writing? Do you feel like you have ideas? Because there’s a lot of people that think they want to do something, and if they dug and dug and dug, they really want. Social reward, or the legacy, or all those things that come out of it, and they don’t think of the downside. So maybe even just create a short list of things you used to love to do that you believed really validated your self concept that now you don’t find that much enjoyment in.
If it’s your dirty little secret, it’s not really the thing that you love. And conversely, think about things that you’re like. I never really liked to do this. I never really liked really liked to knit or cook or watch movies. And now I actually do that because I know a little bit more about what’s behind them, or it’s a different thing. So I think auditing your time is a great use of language there. Back to you.
Ali Kershner 50:35
Yeah, to that point, I used to pretty exclusively only watch documentaries, because, again, it was like, there’s some function I’m learning. I’m and by the way, they’re interesting. Like, most documentaries these days are, like, super interesting. But I would always pick those over movies. And recently, I’ve been watching a lot more comedy. And I used to think, like, oh, comedy, frivolous again. Like, this idea of like, laughing, like, like, Who has time to laugh, which is, like, absolutely absurd.
I do like to laugh, but comedy, I’ve realized, by in large part, due to learning from you, is a true art form, like delivery, understanding your audience and what might be funny to them, the just like research of like, everyday things and figuring out how you can weave that into storytelling and callbacks and like, it’s a real, if you’re a nerd about communication. I mean, it’s a masterclass in communication and storytelling and performance.
And so, like, now I will watch these stand up specials on on like Netflix or whatever, and I’m not the person who’s like, belly laughing on the couch that’s always been like, not, I don’t really laugh when other people aren’t around, unless it’s like, usually somebody, like, falling flat in their face or, like, some fail video. Like, I’ll definitely laugh at that. But now I’m like, Oh, I’m like, appreciating this at a much greater level, but maybe it’s because I’ve just turned it back into work in some way. But we get to have that conversation
Brett Bartholomew 52:04
Well, and think about this, right? And I think you’re learning this, and you’ve talked about it. When we use improv and situational role playing, we talk about when we put people in constraints, Don’t get obsessed with the constraint. Think about what it represents. So imagine, for those of you listening, if you haven’t heard any of this, imagine I put you in an exercise where I say, hey, lights are completely off. You’ve got a hat. You’re in a conflict resolution scenario, blah, blah, blah, and you’re like, Well, what the heck do the what are the lights being off have to do with anything?
Well, that just means now you have the absence, further absence of sensory oriented information. You don’t see their facial expressions, you’re hearing tone of voice. There’s a lot of things you can’t be relying on anymore, and that, no, you’re not gonna have many conversations when the lights are completely off. This is an amplified constraint to say, Hey, you’re not always gonna be able to read people the situation. You’re not gonna see things. Well, I touch on that because you mentioned comedy, right?
And this goes hand in hand with anything we’ve talked about. A lot of times, people see the thing, not what it represents and in terms of the second and third order consequences, right, or the indirect effect or outcomes of those things. So let’s say somebody listening is, well, I’m with the older version of you, Ali, I thought watching comedy. I think comedy is a tremendous waste of time. You think that until you X ray into the brain and you say, okay with that. If you laugh, comes stress relief, right?
And when we have stress relief, obviously, there’s hormones that get released, there’s neurotransmitters that get released. Those things help with problem solving, they help with so many other aspects. Improve mood. The next phone call you take, you might be in a better mood. It might change the relationship your partner, who’s watching it with you.
They might laugh at something that you didn’t expect them to. Now that’s a conversation, and you have shared bonding. So please, listeners, think of this secondary and tertiary and one of my favorite weird words, ordinary consequences in a good way that come from these supposed time wasters. Quit looking at the thing, think about it, what it represents and delivers. Did I explain that clearly, or is that odd?
Ali Kershner 54:06
Okay, yes, yes. And I think that what is there a word for, like, the fifth order?
Brett Bartholomew 54:12
I’d have to think,
Ali Kershner 54:13
Can we make it up.
Brett Bartholomew 54:14
Yeah, go ahead.
Ali Kershner 54:16
What’s usually the root of five?
Brett Bartholomew 54:22
I’m you know what? I’m gonna look it up. We’re going real time. Everybody, just pause for a second. Yeah, we need to look this up. This is what comes after court. And, well, our listeners will be weirdos like us, court,
Ali Kershner 54:34
isn’t it? Tetra
Brett Bartholomew 54:35
Yeah, let’s see, is it Canary. Oh, no, it’s a position, right? I don’t know. No, that’s the fourth or, I don’t know, Fifth Level order, yeah.
Ali Kershner 54:44
Tetrinari
Brett Bartholomew 54:47
This says quinary, denotes the Fifth Level order. I don’t know if I’m pronouncing that right. Um, cenary, sixth level, no, that would be septary. Seventh level, octane. That’s a lot of interesting terms, I think, in the context
Ali Kershner 54:59
The Point remains another, you know, huge one for me has been understanding the gray area of life and right. That’s truly where comedy speaks to me, because they can walk this line of right and wrong, and they can, you know, talk about things that are often hard to talk about, and they can make light of things that are often very dark. And that’s something that I’ve always had a hard time with, because I am a very black and white person.
I seek like, I like, I know I need to engage in things like improv and watch comedy, because these are people that can see that side of the world, which is, really is where the world operate. It does not actually operate in black and white, and it teaches me in some way, it’s okay to let go. It’s okay to laugh at something that is inappropriate. It’s okay to feel, you know, uncomfortable about something that’s hard, you know, like, it brings out these feelings in me of like, Oh my God.
Like, that’s uncomfortable, but like, that’s a something I want to lean into more, because for so long I was like, no, like, yes or no. Like, there was never like this maybe. And like, every time I explore periods or moments of that, I I take myself a little less seriously, and I have a lot more fun, and I realize that life is a lot more enjoyable.
Brett Bartholomew 56:23
I almost want you to repeat that, you know, and I know you can’t do it word for word, but if you had to just take a moment, process that and filter that again, because I think that’s worth I just want to shake the listener up a little bit. Say, Hey, if you weren’t listening before you got used to the tone of our voice, Would you remind repeating that in some way, shape or form?
Ali Kershner 56:39
Yeah, yeah, it’s just the I’ve so long operated in many facets of my life as things are either black or white, and in reality, the world is varying shades of gray. And I think many art forms that used to repel me actually are the ones that are showing me a mirror, because these are people that have explored the gray area. And they’ve questioned things that we like to either say yes or no to, and they instead say maybe, and they, they force you to just look inside yourself and ask yourself, Where have you taken things too seriously? Where have you not taken things seriously enough and get in touch with maybe the dark side or maybe the light side. And those are things that we as humans need to explore to be fully formed and evolved, I think at the end of the day,
Brett Bartholomew 57:31
No question. And it’s going to be really hard to have. And thank you for repeating that. It’s hard to have an equal relatable any form of the term, even advanced society, if we’re all so worried about being judged for everything we say and laugh at and enjoy and partake in at every moment, there’s just we’re not that special. There’s nobody on this planet who is so pure that they’ve never snickered or laughed or thought some kind of thing that they’re like, or they everybody weighs time
And it just becomes we’re so worried about separating ourselves in asinine ways. Well, I mean, there’s reason quotes exist, like, we’re not getting out of this thing. So, like, you can only take it so seriously to a point, and I just think you have to make the most of what comes of it. And you’re gonna get around other people that are more accepting as well, like get if you have to constantly put on a show and use that impression management internally or externally, how do you find the people that actually accept you for who you are?
At best, you might delude yourself for a decade, but at about 30 40, 50 60, the effort and the strain of all that wears on you, and you’re just like, Nope, this is who I am. And you’re like, If only I could have done that 30 years earlier. And you’re like, Oh yeah, pick a book that said that, you know, but you just weren’t ready for it. So anyway, I’m gonna let you take this one home. I think you did a great job bringing this one to the table, giving really tactical things for people to reflect on. Take us home with this,
Ali Kershner 59:00
yeah, you know, because I always want to make sure we over deliver one last thing that I would force everyone to do, if I could, if I was that, you know, if I could come out of the screen, come out of your earphones, and come into your life and help you with something. Is something that I’ve been struggling with, is we all do waste time, regardless of whether you think you waste time or not, we all waste time, and for many of us, I think it’s become our phones and our technology and like scrolling.
So one last piece that I would say is take the moments that you’re scrolling, maybe take a few of those away, because you can convince yourself those are productive. Those are actually not productive. I’ve even convinced myself that scrolling through Tiktok can be productive, and maybe just replace a few of those with the list of things that Brett had you list out before, things that you actually enjoy.
And look inside yourself to see what you actually enjoy. Don’t compare yourself to. Other people enjoy. That’s what I would leave you with, because those are things that I’m relearning about myself and trying to put into practice. So that’s all I got. But I really thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I always I told you, it’s gonna be like therapy, but in the best way possible,
Brett Bartholomew 1:00:17
it’s great. And folks, if you could just help us out, please send these to a friend, to a family member, anybody else. We always try to share more of really just helpful things that people deal with in everyday life, but we cannot do it without your help. If you’re the note taking type, please go to artofcoaching.com/reflections. That is plural, artofcoaching.com/reflections.
Becca Gold does a tremendous job putting together some notes. And no, it’s not we don’t do it all for you. You have to actually think and look at those for more on this and so many other topics. Also join our newsletter at artofcoaching.com/begin. One more time. artofcoaching.com/begn. For myself. Ali Kershner and the rest of our team at Art of Coaching, we appreciate you and Can’t wait to talk to you again next time
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