In Art Of Coaching Podcast, Podcasts

“Unless you live in North Korea, everything you do as a coach is persuasion.”

Did that grab your attention?!  In today’s episode, Keir Wenham-Flatt explains his use of humor and overall philosophy when it comes to making his message stand out in a sea of information.  He says, “you must grab attention first to earn the right to convey your message to people.” 

Keir is a strength coach with over a decade’s experience of working with elite athletes on 4 different continents.  He is best known for his work in rugby and college football. In addition to coaching he is the founder of Strength Coach Network, an educational platform for team sport strength and conditioning specialists.

Throughout the episode, Keir speaks on:

  • How the VALUE of S&C professionals is negatively affected by the nature of the field
  • How to “earn the right” to convey your message to the right audience
  • Using seemingly outside avenues to further yourself as a professional AND as a person
  • Why the current system of education and accreditation in S&C is broken

You can find Keir on the following platforms:

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Brett Bartholomew  0:00  

And you’ll hear the actual recording right now. So last chance ask me any questions for three,


Keir Wenham-Flatt  0:07  

lay it on me, baby 


Brett Bartholomew  0:07  

3 2 1. Here, we’re rolling right into this one. It’s good to see ya man.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  0:15  

You too brother. Thank you for having me.


Brett Bartholomew  0:16  

Yeah, my pleasure. Listen, I think, even though we are a leadership development company, if you’re Joe Rogan has comments on his podcast every now and then. So Dammit, I’m gonna have people that are from my previous line of work and strength and conditioning. So it’s nice to have not just another strength coach on the show, but somebody that has evolved beyond that somebody that understands basic principles of the thing you’ve done for a very long time and done it really well. But also somebody with a business mindset, somebody that has a family, somebody that has just multiple aspects to themselves, and isn’t scared to be that in an unapologetic way. So I mean, I’ll leave that hanging for a minute, because that’s a conversation in and of itself. Why do you think so many people in our core profession where you and I both started in strength and conditioning, seemingly just don’t have any other aspects of themselves that they want to show or that they do show off? And other than the buttoned up? I’m the coach that got has all this stuff together? What is it about the sterility of the profession, you think,


Keir Wenham-Flatt  1:17  

I think it was a maybe it was in the last year or so I read a quote, that really struck a chord with me, and it said, the smaller the pie, the sharper the knives. And I think, certainly in college sector, private, sorry, professional sector, when you’re a strength coach, there is such competition for jobs, that people are paranoid about making any kind of misstep that will see an opportunity or money when there’s really not a lot of them going around, taken away from you. And when you consider that there are good people doing good work for a very long time, that can still be fired at the drop of a hat, I think that only heightens to increase people’s anxiety about that stuff. And you know, another thing that I’ve thought about quite a bit, any endeavor where you’re able to draw that straight line from I did X and Y was the result. And you’re able to demonstrate as a practitioner, hey, like this is the value that I bring to the organization, this is what I’m worth to you, the easier it becomes to just live and die by the numbers if you have good numbers. So I think it’s much more common that you’re going to see like a prima donnas stockbroker, oh my god, that guy’s a dick. Yeah, well, that dick makes the company $5 million a year. 


The problem that we have in strength and conditioning coaching is because humans are these like, integrated systems. And nothing is an island. Everything affects everything. There’s no one true metric as a strength coach that you can actually point to and say, Hey, this is the thing that I influence, you can be made to look very, very clever by sport coaches that have good practice design, the recruiters can make you look smarter or dumber, the athletic trainers can do the same, the dietician can do the same. So as a result, it gets really, really murky. To demonstrate your value as a strength coach, and people play both sides of that. But the harder it becomes to draw that straight line, in my opinion, the more it ends up becoming about ingratiate yourself to the people signing the checks, especially when those people couldn’t even define what it is you do, let alone objectively evaluate how well you do. So it’s always about, especially in football, that’s my guy. Okay, how do you know he’s just my guy?


Brett Bartholomew  3:42  

Yeah, well, I mean, it becomes a bit of a house of cards too, right? And like, it’s funny, when we run our workshops, and they’re open to all professions, there’ll be inevitably times that I bring up you experiences in strength conditioning, and the thing we always get is, oh, that’s the same in this profession, right? Oh, that’s the same in law school. Oh, that’s the same in my profession. And of course, many professions. I say the issues that human performance have are not necessarily unique, but the things that they do to try to attack them to make them better are, you know, other professions will try to find ways to professionalize what they do. They might unionize, they might realize that they need to take more accountability of the entrepreneurial side of it, that nobody’s coming to save them, they kind of grow up a little bit more quickly, because these tend to be more established fields, especially if they’re science rooted or legally rooted or anything like that. Whereas trained coaches just a lot of times continue to whine and just expect people to understand their value without taking a step out and realizing hmm, I might actually need to self promote in a tasteful way a little bit. I might actually need to reexamine the way that people form an impression about me. I might need to examine my fallbacks. I might need to think about getting better at negotiating. They just kind of think everybody is going to do it for him or one day somebody’s just gonna wake up and be like, I totally get your value, right and so becomes just something I would tell you People, you know, yeah, your profession is not unique. On the other hand, do you ever see people as dentists sitting there and arguing about their techniques endlessly online? Do you see witch hunts, for people that run bakeries on opposite sides of, of the city, strength coaches just want to argue and and there’s that element of insecurity, you know, to there’s an element of A, I got into this because I like working out, it gave me confidence, maybe I was a below average average athlete. Now I’m going to channel that competitiveness into the profession. maybe you don’t share this opinion. But what aspect of it do you think is heightened by inherent insecurities of the kind of people that sometimes get into the field? 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  5:45  

Sorry can you reframe the question 


Brett Bartholomew  5:47  

100%?. So you mentioned the smaller the pie, the sharper the knives, which are 100%. True. You mentioned that objectively, it’s very hard to prove the value in many circumstances as a strength coach, because people try to do that through a training perspective, where really, the value is from a coaching perspective, as well as the smart training methods. But I’m saying is, there’s also that reality of since it’s such a small niche kind of field, where a lot of people got into it, because their real hobby was just getting into the weight room. And that right, like the weight room for them is a lot of times overcoming insecurities finding themselves struggle. Do you think the inherent insecurity sometimes a people that get into this field, making their hobby, something that used to give them a sense of self or confidence, their profession, do you think that plays into it at all? Like, I don’t know, a lot of lawyers who litigating was a hobby of them before they became a lawyer? Right? Like, I don’t know, a lot of 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  6:42  

You know, I’ve never thought about it like that. I think, honestly, I was probably too focus on myself. Absolutely. I fall into that category of I was a terrible athlete at the age of 15. 


Brett Bartholomew  6:56  



Keir Wenham-Flatt  6:57  

 Oh, did, I can tell you vividly, I spoke to a coach who, unfortunately, he died a year ago, but he was one of the more influential coaches growing up. And I had made the rep team for my like County at 14 was immediately cut 15. And I asked him Norman Barker, I said, tell me why I’ve been cut so I can work on it. And he said, kid, they want big, strong, fast fit players, and you want none of those things.


Brett Bartholomew  7:23  

Just like that, 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  7:24  

yeah, sure. yeah. And so yeah, I thought, right, I need to train and that, you know, started the training for myself. And of course, by 18, it was like, this is clearly not going to happen. Yeah. And that kind of prompted the transition. To me being a strength coach, but it wasn’t necessarily out of inadequacy or insecurity, it was just basically like a no, I refuse to get a real job. Like I this is the environment that I want to work in. I’m gonna get as close to the field as I can, in that team environment being a part of the process


Brett Bartholomew  8:01  

here was that part of is reasonable, right? Like selfish desire should like people should choose part of their profession based on what kind of environment do I want to be around? Right? Do I want to be outside, I did the same thing, right, I looked at my dad who was a financial advisor. And I’m like, I don’t want to wear a suit every day and go to a stuffy building. You know, and I remember one time as a GA, Colin M. And I’m like, I’m at spring practice, right now your assets talking, and just giving them a hard time, right. But like, there also becomes a time where I remember that flipped on me. And when I had a family, like when I started my family, and I’m thinking, I have been here from dark to dark done that my whole career value that you know, like there’s plenty of times where I, you just kind of get this confidence from the fact that you can continually put in the hours and it doesn’t even feel like work and you’re grinding. But then when I started noticing, okay, I’m on my like, eighth group today. And then these people generally come in, they get healthy they get right. And then they go and have these external lives and they can spend time with family. Whereas oftentimes, you start to see as your outside of work demands increase, you kind of feel like you’re making everybody else better but yourself, you’re making everybody else healthier about yourself. Other people are able to have families and go on trips and you can’t and then you can look at that and somebody I just remember a lot of advice really be in people saying, hey, if that’s kind of life you want don’t get into it. And I thought that was frankly shit advice. I think that of course you know, you can’t have it all. But why should coaches not be able to periodized their career so that they can do what they do and do it well, but still have a damn family life? I mean, you have a kid you know, when did that start to flip for you where being on the floor all the time and coaching all the time was no longer the necessarily the identity you wanted to have or needed to have?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  9:38  

Well, when we separated and she went back to Japan when he was 11 months old.


Brett Bartholomew  9:45  

Gotta go into that a little bit more man. My listeners need context if you don’t mind.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  9:48  

Yeah, I mean, the mother of my son is a Japanese American. We met in Japan had the baby in America and we separated when nerve, he was 10 months old. And yeah, she went back to Japan. So then obviously, you do a lot of introspection during times like that. And let me think.


Brett Bartholomew  10:16  

I mean, that had to be incredibly-  I mean, the time we were already spending away from him. And now you’re wondering like when you’re going to see him if you’re going to see him that that had to be?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  10:23  

Well, no, I’ll tell you what happened like she, it culminated in the first period after the separation, the court actually sent him to me. So the whole thing started in the last week of camp first game of the season. All of this is going on mid season. And then I remember it was week, seven or eight of the season, the court said, okay, he stays with dad. She left, baby, I took four days off work for my mother in on a Saturday, and I was back at work on the Sunday. And then I worked seven days a week through the end of the season. To come back to Japan, and then COVID hit. And obviously, I think everyone did a lot of thinking during COVID. But you know, to be honest, Britain was like for me. Can you have a happy family life? Being a strength? Coach? I think absolutely you can with the correct spouse, if you’re a single parent? To me, the answer is almost certainly no. And it was do I want to be known as man, he’s a great strength coach by a few 1000 People online who’ve never met me, and have my kid not hate me, but like to be absent as a father? Or do I want to flip it and say, well, actually, I really don’t care what those people online, think about me kind of look, my son in the lights. That was that was the big one for me. And then there was some other stuff, like financially being in a position to do it. And then also, the project that all of us at that staff had been brought to, have a crack at that school, it was readily apparent that, you know, false pretenses, and we all kind of, I won’t say we decided as a group to leave, but if you look at the numbers, we all left within, you know, four of us left within a period of six weeks.


Brett Bartholomew  12:14  

Yeah. Well, you touched on some key themes there. Right, right. So you’ve coached in the US you coach in Japan, you’ve coached in a wide variety of settings. But you touched on a couple things, what do I want to be known as? This is something that I definitely I can relate to. And I think a lot of our listeners, for sure, but something that tore me apart, and I think gave me this very paradoxical feeling towards strength and conditioning. Because it equal parts, like sometimes it can feel like I was writing a diss track and a love letter to it with a lot of things that I wrote. And I think you do the same thing. And you do it really well, is they’re not always honest with themselves, and people say, Oh, it’s not about me, I don’t really care about being known. And they won’t mention finances. Yet, when we’ve done surveys with coaches, more than 1000 of them said, basically, there are three big things are things that you alluded to, I’d like to be known, or at least feel validated and respected in what I do by the organization or others. Finances are an issue and basically making an impact. And yet there’s this feeling that almost like you’re a part of, some culture church that if you ever state these things outwardly, that like, Oh, my God, you’ve just blacklisted yourself.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  13:23  

And that is the alignment. It’s okay to want those things for yourself, if you do so in the process of furthering the organization. If it’s you furthering yourself, and you’re not taking everyone along for the ride, or it doesn’t help the organization, then it becomes a problem. But there’s absolutely you know, something like that happened to me, I forget, I don’t even remember who I was talking to. But there was a guy in Argentina who said, in my third year, you have changed the face of Argentinian rugby. And I was like, wow. And I remember it seven years later,


Brett Bartholomew  13:56  

and What was the context of that?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  13:59  

I think we’re talking about, the developments. You know, obviously, you came from excellence. Excellence was a major piece of that. There were other individuals within the UI that were major driving forces behind that, but there was this big plan. Around the time of the first time that Argentina would exercise and they had these big landmarks of we’re going to have a high performance center network, we’re going to join Super Rugby, we’re going to join the rugby championship. And we’re going to make the World Cup final in 2019. And I kind of found myself in the last four years of that. And, yeah, we did a lot of good work. Honestly, it’s one of the financially least well resourced organizations I’ve worked for, but in terms of their focus and their dedication to the mission, one of the best. 


Brett Bartholomew  14:47  

Well, but you think about this and what you said, of furthering yourself, along with the organization that’s not frowned on, but furthering yourself could be I think, I’ve always thought of this in terms of comedy. Right? You have comedians that Holman hearts them was the Comedy Store, the Laugh Factory, whatever it was right, whatever that piece was. The Comedy Store is one that is infamous. 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  14:47  

Have you seen the documentary? 


Brett Bartholomew  14:47  

100% A huge comedy buff,  you think about that, right? You’ve seen it all the times that people tried to get on Johnny Carson’s couch and everything, as Polly shores Mom, how she ran that and how, you know, just trying to get your time and whether you could get your five minutes or 15 minutes. But then if those comedians did it, right, if they were able to get out of that training ground, and for some that training ground was private, collegiate, you know, some other whatever, like you really honed your skills. But then why should you not like comedians, like musicians that are on record labels, but then go independent? Why should you not be able to go out and do your own thing? Right? Why should you and this is something where I just feel like I come back to the insecurity of it, it’s that idea of you winning here means that I’ve lost you going off and creating a product, a service, a business, heaven forbid, you go outside, and you get paid more to speak or you do this, it’s you winning, that can’t represent advancement, or progress for the field as a whole. That can’t represent progress. like opportunities that like one thing we try to do at art of coaching is say, hey, strength coaches can go and speak for corporate events, you can do this. It’s not just military, it’s not guess what we know, leadership too


Keir Wenham-Flatt  16:25  

I spoke to a coach, he was talking about he started doing, start promoting himself products online, all this kind of stuff. And because he was wearing his work shirt branded with the logo of the team whilst promoting your product, he literally got the tap on the shoulder the next day at work, hey, you know, this is a concern, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said to him, Have you noticed they’d love for you to have a hobby, until the hobby gets you paid?


Brett Bartholomew  16:54  

pay me more, because other places don’t look at it like that, we’ve talked about this on the show before. If one of my buddies that works for a law firm writes a book or becomes well known that reflects well on the law firm. Or if you look at people, these academics that write books, Adam Grant, and everything that makes Wharton School of Business look better, that makes Stanford University look better if you’re supposed ski that makes these people look better. If Ali in our organization goes on and becomes a behemoth in what she does. Well, by and large, that represents us and her like you should want to be an incubator for talent, you should want to be an incubator for growth. And so that’s where I just, look at these things, and it’s very, very interesting because you see this path forward in music in comedy. Coaching hasn’t figured it out, even though the Sport Coaching counterparts have. Nobody argues that Nick Saban gets GEICO commercials, Kirby smart goes and get some other commercial and then everybody gets their commercial and even if you’re at a local dealership, you get yours. So speaking about that, then you, you have decided and I commend you for I think it’s it’s actually indicative of being something somebody who’s open minded and resourceful. At some point, you decided, I don’t give a shit. I’m gonna go for a life that I think is something that I would want. I’m going to still provide massive value because let’s be honest, quality is the best business model. What then were the initial fears and, and concerns and even epiphanies you had the day you decided, I don’t care if this means no job in pro sport, I don’t care. This means no job in college. I’m going for it.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  18:27  

Truthfully, it was what will people think of me? And wasn’t the money wasn’t the satisfaction because, the satisfaction had been absent. I mean, COVID didn’t help but had been absent for a year and even before COVID It was like, you know, I kind of got sold a bill of goods there. But yeah, of course, it’s what are people going to think about the opportunities that I’m walking away from, but , I’ve told a couple of people that one of the best and worst things that ever happened to me in my career was that I got everything I wanted. I came in, I was an intern, turning 25. And I thought, Man, if I could be a head strength coach in the Premiership, by the time I’m 30 Life is going to be absolutely sweet. And of course, I was the senior strength coach for the roosters at 28. I went to a World Cup at 29, 30. I was in Japan at 30. I slack off, I’m not happy, I need to I need to move the goalposts. So then I moved to America. And I was like, Well, I’m going to work in the NFL. And then this is the thing  I’m being a dick, but I do like to remind people if I’m such a bad coach, why is it I got to be ahead of the day one level within nine months. I must be terrible. Anyway, I got that. And I thought I had a conversation with Eric about this as well. It’s same problems nicer office. I might get a window this time. You know, I spoke to Cory Schlesinger. It wasn’t until they made the Western Conference Finals that he got a window.  But I just thought it same problems. Every one of the NFL everyone the NBA, you speak to them. Same problems you deal with the NBA level. They’re all struggling with the family life, the money is a little bit nicer, but still not enough to retire from. And I thought really, you know, enough is enough. If the financial piece for me, I’m quite prepared to live and die by my own work, because I feel like long term things are going to be way better for me to do that. And I’m paraphrasing, but that like Nassim Taleb thing, only the truly free think work and speakers they feel. Yeah. And I thought right Enough is enough. I’m gonna start doing that.


Brett Bartholomew  20:36  

Yeah, well, like he says, as well, right? Three most addictive things are carbohydrates, a salary and heroin. And I think again, it just goes into that idea of, when you mentioned these pieces, that’s why I knew I couldn’t continue to engage in discourse with people in the field that just continually want to know my or your thoughts on this exercise, or what’s the best GA are like, there’s so many one size fits all answers, you realize it’s a field that really wanted to be told what to think instead of how to think, which is problematic. Where it is, okay, instead of you take an entrepreneurial again, like comedians, they realize, okay, so and so got a Netflix special, how do I do that? How do I do if more coaches kind of banded together help each other kind of provide this incubator for, hey, let’s be a little smarter here. And it’s funny, right? Because I know you know about this too, at art of coaching. When we first started, we started running things like, Hey, we’re gonna run a workshop on how to help people with their career. We’re gonna help coaches learn how to speak better, we’re gonna have whatever but then, what you got early on it will be like, Wow, I don’t need that I don’t need I got this. But then they lose their job. And then they want to come and it’s like, dig the well before you’re thirsty. 


So with that, saying, talk to me about all the things you have your hands in now now. And more importantly, how do you even build an audience around that? How do you get awareness out in a world that is so loud? Especially if there’s coaches listening that are like, dude, I’m with you guys. I want to do these things. But I couldn’t even imagine getting into the crap world that is social media, or I wouldn’t even know how to promote myself, and break this down any way you want. But just talk to me about how, you even started on what you have your hands in?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  22:15  

Well, I mean, on the money side of things, I think, Have you ever read the almanac of navall Raava. Khan, 


Brett Bartholomew  22:24  



Keir Wenham-Flatt  22:25  

excellent book free to download. I think it’s like 10 bucks for the paperback. When I left coaching, I did, I think like two days later, I flew out to Tucson to stay with my old assistant, Scott. He was at Arizona. Now he’s at LSU with Jake Flint. And I read this book in a day, and I will ever have one of these slaps in the face. But what he gets across in the book is you have to if you want to be independently wealthy, and have the kind of lifestyle that hopefully all of us aspire to, you must uncouple input and output in terms of the hours that you work. So hours for dollars is a no no. Do it? Are you going to be independently wealthy? Being a personal trainer, taxi driver, all that kind of stuff? Probably not. So it’s a 


Brett Bartholomew  23:13  

long term, 


correct, Correct. If you want to double your money, you have to deal with your hours. That’s bad. Now, if you’re a salaried strength coach, and you double your hours, what happens? Now guy Brett works really hard. Good job, buddy. So it’s even worse. So what you have to do in my opinion is such as you’ve done is to try and build a structure in your life where you are uncoupling input. And output to me is the same amount of work whether I have 100 500 1,000 2000 members on a strength coach network, it’s the same amount of work pretty much if I have four apartments, 10, apartments, 20, apartments, all that kind of stuff. So I won’t use the word passive, I would call it like, low mid or high momentum income. If you have a nine to five, and you don’t turn up, that we’re going to get on your back about it tomorrow. If you have a bunch of apartment buildings, you give them the 10 minutes a month, they pay you your money. Sweet. So that’s when there’s way more momentum to that income. Same with the online stuff. So I’m trying to get to the point where the only reason I coach or interact with athletes or coaches because I want to so I have the real estate. I have the two websites I have, like stocks and shares. And then I’m dabbling right now with positive expected value sports gambling,


What you’re talking about there, right is you’re giving yourself option value, which is true power. You’re saying and this is something that I think most people make the mistake of where I think there are certain times right where dollars for hours make sense, because ROI can come in different avenues like I think of a gentleman that we’re working with. Now that helps us with content, David. Hey, David. David, right. It makes sense for him to contract At hours for dollars to a degree. Now that ROI comes from a lot of places, David does a good job for us. He needs referrals we get now we have connection value, we can give him high ROI there, there are periods of your life where hours for dollars make sense. But to your point, 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  25:14  

If you have no other value to give time as the value that you give. Yeah, sure. 


Brett Bartholomew  25:17  

And even at certain points, or just early in your career you’re going to have but like to your point, then you have to think of what’s the force multiplier. What is that. And I think that’s where most coaches get it wrong. And I am just going to talk to strength coaches right now. But it expands all professionals, if you choose to not dabble in other avenues, and you just think that you’re going to be able to have the life that you want doing that one thing only the way you want it the way that you want it, you’re gonna get the job, you’re missing the opportunity to gain so much perspective meeting people and think what you’ve learned through real estate. Think what I think what we’ve learned going to speak for financial companies and tech firms, like you’re expanding the wealth, and like just breadth of your perspective, which ultimately makes you better at whatever that core thing is you want to do. And it gives you different opportunities. I wonder, what do you felt? What did you feel like out of all the things you’re doing online? With real estate and other aspects? Where did the skills that you learned in coaching, just training conditioning coaching, leading groups being on the floor? Where did it almost transfer the most seamlessly? And I know, part one, so feel free to take moment,


Keir Wenham-Flatt  26:24  

Well I you know, is that kind of it’s actually reasonably rare in strength and conditioning. But having those like SOPs, standard operating procedures, having a model that you read, over time, having checklists, one of the more impactful books that I read as a coach was a Checklist Manifesto, it was recommended to me by Darcy, another Exos connection. And that was something that really, really stuck to me. So just having like, 


Brett Bartholomew  26:51  

I’m in structure to things. 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  26:52  

Yeah, like, for example, like the real estate, I always look for, is it undervalued on a? Like a the comps within the neighborhood? Is it relatively undervalued? Or if it is fair market value, is there a lot of scope to increase the rents, because it’s like forced appreciation, you don’t want to rely on the market, especially right now, to make you richer, you want to be able to buy the house, put extra capital into it, increase the rents, refinance it, repeat it, all that kind of stuff. And, I do try and use it in coaching. But again, it’s one of these things that is not as common as you would like, but that kind of risk mitigation. So you’re spreading your resources across different buckets in case one of them fails. You’re never too heavily invested in one thing or another. And it’s just little, it’s that probing approach from the Canarian framework, if you’re familiar with that, sure.


Brett Bartholomew  27:49  

Yeah. Yeah. And I think that brings up a good point, we were talking on a staff meeting today about whether we were going to run a certain event in November. And so we try to one skill that I brought over was periodization, right of, which is just business planning, which is just higher level thinking. It’s planning. That’s all it is, right? And we were saying, well, it doesn’t really make sense to run this event in November, when really that time could be better spent in November, people are starting to think about holidays are starting to think about other spending, things like that. We’re like, why don’t we focus more on re strategizing what we’re going to do as a company, q1 of the next year, let’s spend any of the money that was going to be on event stuff on online ads, and because people will buy those kinds of things at a discount, people will do this. And holiday season is a great time to do that. Let’s renegotiate podcast sponsorships, they’re just there’s certain times a year it makes more sense to do certain things. And certain times a year, it doesn’t. You know, we plan a vacation to Greece, like we could go during peak season and want to choke 8 million tourists, but be like, Oh, it’s warmer. Or we could go when it’s a little bit colder, but we actually get time to be around each other. 


So I think just looking at that planning, what about this? This was a question that I asked Mike Goldberg from ESPN when he was on the show. And he has to engage in social media a lot. And he has to respond and react to a lot of things and you’re prolific in social media in your own right, which we’ll get into in multiple ways. But he said, I said, Mike, how do you know what to respond to? Or, what is a guidepost for what you share and tweet he said, I think about is this worth spending my entire morning on? He’s like, when I send something or something is that and I think that guy did need to I think even you in the past, I’ve shared stuff where you’re like, hey, I think somebody’s taking a shot at you. And I’m like, Yeah, I don’t know that that person’s worth the amount of energy to like the energy I could pour into that. I could write another chapter in my book and be like, you know, you make them


Keir Wenham-Flatt  29:42  

you’re more mature than me in that regard. 


Brett Bartholomew  29:45  

Well hey took me a while and there’s still times I want to punch somebody. I just live vicariously for you when you do a meme. But when you think about what bear you want to poke what thing you want to leave alone what you respond to what are some guiding kind of thoughts or principles there? Or is it just a big circus in your brain? And, there’s a chainsaw going to everything?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  30:07  

I think there’s it’s let me show you this quick, right. I don’t know if you read it, Ryan Holiday, so he was like the Chief Marketing Officer for American Apparel by the time is like 25. And obviously success leaves clues. But one of the things that he talks about is like, manipulation of the media. And the valuable message that falls on deaf ears is of no value whatsoever. So I think the first thing when it comes to all this kind of stuff online is that you must grab attention. And I could say, I’m not going to pick anyone like CNN, I could say, oh, you know, think about it this way. The following things are really important. Bla bla bla, bla bla, this coach’s behavior does not exhibit these things. Maybe we should do it this way. Bla bla, bla, bla, bla. Or I could put together a 30 to 60 second meme, hahaha, and then it gets shared 500 times. And once people start to reply to it, then you can hit them with the message. So I think even it’s cynical, but you must grab attention first, to earn the right to convey your message to people, which I feel like people forget sometimes. And also, there’s two ways I would say like, when everyone’s zigging, you have to zag. And I feel like if you just go against the grain a little bit, that’s one sure way to grab attention. So, no disrespect to the Americans. I love America. Everyone walking around at the, the conference with the khakis and a polo shirt, calling each other coach, where do you work? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 


Brett Bartholomew  31:53  



Keir Wenham-Flatt  31:54  

Yeah, I’m gonna go against that the online discourse like if you can go look at my Twitter. profile pic. It’s me doing a Charlo squat with the Stars and Stripes bandana on the beach in California. And when people tell me what a terrible person I am, I update my Twitter bio to include a quote from that. 


Brett Bartholomew  32:11  

Yeah, well, I mean, it’s that and Ryan’s one of his mentors, Robert Greene was on the podcast. And one of his pieces in the morning is syrup waters and catch fish. And this harkens back even to a book and we talked about it on our online course valued is crystallizing public opinion. And this was like the earliest I mean, this was like the founder of public relations that talked about he’s like, listen, a debate is going to draw a larger crowd than a lecture. And then the, you know, a debate is going to draw a larger crowd than the lecture. And for those for everybody kind of just like waving their finger. Just hold on. There’s a point here, right? I remember in that book, and in my reference notes here, just don’t get it wrong. There was a gentleman named William McDougal, who is a psychologist who and I think this complements what you’re saying classifies seven primary instincts with their attendant emotions, right? There’s like fear, repulsion, disgust, curiosity, wonder, pugnacity, anger, elation, self-abasement per like, there’s all these things and you have to serve the curve of the emotions of the individuals you interact with, if you want to get a response,


Keir Wenham-Flatt  33:19  

and which of those that you just listed, gets the most engagement and traction on social media algorithms. It’s not the happy ones


Brett Bartholomew  33:27  

never No. I mean, right. That’s the same thing with the 24 hour news cycle we have now it’s not, hey, one person got accosted in New York. It’s like night terror in New York, and then it’s 30 things of alliteration that talk about that thing. Yeah, I mean, but here’s the thing. Now, if I play devil’s advocate, right, what if there’s somebody out there that goes man, here, such a wonderfully intelligent person skilled coach, but I wonder if he knows and, nobody said this, by the way, so I wonder if he feels like putting these things out there. It’s just gonna keep him from getting this job and that job like to what extent like is 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  34:07  

it happened at CSCCA. I, you know,


Brett Bartholomew  34:11  

What is that for people that aren’t strength coaches listening in 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  34:14  

collegiate strength and conditioning coaches association, said I only need at least five people come up to my former assistant to tell me through a back channel that I need to cool it down. And his reply was what you just described. Hey, Kenny, watch what you’re saying.


Brett Bartholomew  34:30  

Palpatine I’ve always wondered who’s a Palpatine of strength and conditioning that just like datum Dido? Yeah.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  34:35  

I won’t name a shame but his his reply was for what telling the truth. But here’s the thing. I did joke that when I was dating, it’s better to evoke a strong emotion in either direction than tepid indifference. And to do so quickly, 


Brett Bartholomew  34:51  

repeat that one again, 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  34:53  

is best to evoke a strong emotion in either direction, then tepid indifference and to do so quickly. You Yeah, it’s you know, if that is what is going to put you off hire me for a job. Cool. I don’t want to work for you.


Brett Bartholomew  35:08  

What about the people that they believe everything you’re saying, right? They understand, hey, I got I get it when they say I got a zag, maybe your style, right? You’re the 50 cent of this in terms of the schoolyard bully and you do it. Anybody that actually knows you, right? Yes, we’ll talk about that in a minute. But let’s say somebody’s like,I hear you. but that’s not my style. How do they find their style?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  35:31  

like and what like authenticity? I just, I feel like I’ve been reading a couple of books by Russell Brunson recently. And his thing is don’t teach document. So you can share value by documenting what it is that you’re doing right now what you’re learning things that interest you. But again, it’s like that. Maybe comedy or I think it’s like Miles Davis. But my old internal my shed at the other day was a quote by Miles Davis. And it said, it took me 10 years to play like myself.


Brett Bartholomew  36:06  

Yeah, that’s amazing. And play the notes. Nobody else is playing. Exactly.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  36:09  

And I just feel like not in an inauthentic way. But like, you do have to, I think to grab attention, you have to speak, it helps have any accent, you have to speak differently. You have to say what others aren’t. It’s like that like Venn diagram, you’re trying to hit the very middle of like, what’s authentic, what interests you? What’s going to grab a little bit of attention? What do you enjoy doing all those kinds of things? And it takes a while. It takes a while for sure.


Brett Bartholomew  36:39  

I agree. I think what when we were working with somebody this weekend at speaker school on that because they feel like they just go into this repetitive kind of way of talking that doesn’t highlight their personality. One thing that we said maybe it’s crap advice is I said, well think of one end of the spectrum of what is something that you get really passionate about, like let’s say, I love restaurants. I’m like, here, you gotta go to this seafood restaurant. It’s amazing. I go think of something on that level that even if you’re not a salesy person, which I don’t think anybody’s naturally salesy, I think there’s different realms of like enthusiam. But think of something you get very enthusiastic and animated within,  relative context of you and your bandwidth. And think of the absolute opposite the thing that, what would your tone of voice pioneer expressions be if you weren’t interested in the subject at all? Now, there’s other things within that, right? I think of if I go on vacation, I’m like, Kia, you gotta go to this place. It’s amazing. Okay, let’s say that’s a level seven out of 10. And then, let’s say we go to a restaurant one night, I’m like, yeah, man, this place is pretty good. You should check it out. Let’s say that’s a five. I just say think of different aspects in everyday life, of that scale of passion. And you can inject just make sure whether you’re posting or tweeting or doing a newsletter or a podcast, have some aspect of that, and how you share that because it’s not just what you share it 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  37:55  

you know, I love as well is. Don’t feel you have to always be chipping in, like, only chipping. When it’s the seventh how many albums is Dr. Dre released?


Brett Bartholomew  38:06  

Yeah, that many? 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  38:07  

What three? Yeah.


And the best? Yeah, the best one, he’s on four of the tracks, like people don’t realize like, he’s only on four tracks on the chronic? it’s still.


Brett Bartholomew  38:18  

And that’s what sucks. Like, that is one complaint I have about today’s like, I miss the days where like DRE or like Eminem, you could come out with an album, maybe every four to five years, or, like Kendrick just did, right? We hadn’t heard from him and half a decade. Yeah. And but like, you don’t have that unless you have a publicist and Agent and that vehicle, you really can’t do that. I mean, imagine if you were me, or somebody just like we went dark for like three to four years. And then all of a sudden, we come with a magnum opus, well, if you don’t have a vehicle of distribution, no matter how good that work is to get it out. Like, we can’t do that, \and that is the importance of me on my end of like, why consistent, tasteful self promotion has to happen. Because we don’t get the option, you almost run the risk of being mixed tape, Little Wayne, we almost saturate the market too much. And you feel like you do have to chip in all the time. And so that’s a really good point, but only chip in when it’s if within your zone of genius, or if it’s something that you really want to respond to it. As soon as somebody says, Hey, Brett, this guy says, communication stupid and isn’t important in coaching. I will never respond to that because that’s bait. I’m not giving that person that time of day. 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  39:27  

That’s another Russell Brunson thing. He’s like you’re not looking for the never crowd you’re not looking for they love what they’re currently doing. You’re looking for that frustrated section of the audience where they’re on the edge, and you’re the guy that pulls them in


Brett Bartholomew  39:39  

grade point. And that brings me my next question. It’s amazing when I see the things that you do online and the things that you share, and I know you as a person and you’re a deeply thoughtful, very detail oriented, ridiculously loyal. I mean, you are I mean, like listen, at the end of the day, if I knew that, like there was a situation that I had to handle That was with some last like, I know that you would be there in a while at least I think you would a wide range of situations, if it was something family related, and I kind of needed somebody to vent to, or, push came to shove things. Like you’re just you’re one of those people, because I think you’ve been probably, through the good, the bad and the ugly, you’ve had people with you, you’ve had people turn their back on you. So only people that know that range, know how to be truly loyal. With that. We don’t always see the full aspect of who you are online. For people that, they followed you forever. They’re entertained by it, they’re engaged by it, but they kind of want to get to know the real you, what is that version of yourself? Like, what is that persona? We don’t see much of it? And how do you choose whether or not? Or how much to show of it?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  40:46  

I don’t know. I mean, I do. I’ve kind of joked to my assistants that there’s two kinds of people, those that know me, like me and get me in there in on the joke. And then the other people is those that underestimate me, and I use it against them.


Brett Bartholomew  41:01  

There’s no other permutation.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  41:04  

It’s just efficient. It’s a binary system.


Brett Bartholomew  41:08  

We’re going black and white here. That’s what it is.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  41:11  

Yeah, I mean, it’s cynical, but it’s like, I will say this, like the goofy Twitter profile, picture, the bio, I’ll make a joke every now and then every now and then  I’ll get someone on the end of the line that’s like, starts to debate me and I’m like, got it. I’m not gonna lie, I like to laugh. I like to laugh. I like to have fun. Probably, it’s definitely not my style to take myself or other things too seriously. But again, it’s like a weakness it’s an overly leaned upon strength, for the most part. So that can be my downfall. Just like, you know, Eric Coram used to pull his hair out because that man is like detail oriented to the nth degree. And I’m very much big picture moving pieces, move fast break stuff, get an intern to fix it, all that kind of stuff. And that’s probably why we complemented one another quite well.


Brett Bartholomew  42:10  

And for those listening, Eric is another member of the performance community again, everybody knows whatever profession you’re in listening. It’s a small world, right? It’s a small world and you may work with somebody at 20 that you don’t see again, until you’re 45. And you maybe you didn’t gel at one time, and you did here, it’s the same thing. Anything, right, like people that compliment you. But sometimes that compliment is,  the rough edges kind of going against each other, it smooths it out.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  42:35  

So you know, in terms of like, the true version of yourself, it really does come down to me as like you said, like, one, they’ll get to interact with that guy. Communications, BS, whatever, you’re not going to give the time and effort and energy, it would require to get across the full version of yourself to be like, oh, man, Brett has a point. What a great guy. So I feel like, the closer you are to my inner circle, the more of myself, I’m going to get to give to you, if you’re like one of it’s probably like 25,000 people that follow me on Twitter, you can have a certain version of me. If you and I have a business relationship, you remember, it’s my website. I give a lot more to my, to my customers, my former assistants, my interns, I put it this way. I caught up. In the last month, I had an assistant for strength coach network comm stay at my house for two weeks and a former intern stay at my house for a week, I met with another former intern in California. So I hopefully, that speaks volumes to the kind of relationships that I have when people want to work. And then obviously, you have family. Closest of all, hopefully, so I really does. I think it depends on like proximity.


Brett Bartholomew  43:52  

Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense. I mean, it’s funny, right? When people say, if somebody’s like, well, I’d really like to get to know the person behind this behind that. I was looking at it. And I think Well, it’s funny that they think that’s a one way street, that that’s dependent on you or me or somebody else, sharing more as a commodity, right, as opposed to them getting more involved. Right? Because you’re right, it’s a lot easier for me to hop on the phone for somebody for an hour and give an hour of my time free to somebody that’s invested in our stuff in the past, then somebody that’s just DM me seven times to pick my brain, yet never, signed up for an online course never come to them. I mean, and it’s funny because I remember having this conversation with a friend and I’d love to hear your thoughts on it because you run a business. And he was like, well, that’s gonna hurt your scalability. If you do certain things for certain people that you don’t do to others. And I’m like, you know, on the whole, I would agree with that. But there’s also some elements of that discretion that if I fly Delta, and I’m a platinum member, which you know, by default means I’ve met I’ve spent a certain amount of money and exhibited a certain amount of loyalty to that


Keir Wenham-Flatt  44:55  

 which I am because I was very, I was annoyed. There was no delta lounge at Houston internet. So I’ve paid seven bucks to kale and the other day,


Brett Bartholomew  45:02  

I totally get it. And so like, we are too and so the other day, because we’re running an event in Phoenix, and they wouldn’t let me book, there was an issue booking my son’s patent ticket, right? And so I did put it under my name, blah, blah, blah. And I said, I need to get this done. And they said, it’s gonna be 100 bucks for a change bag. Oh, no, it’s not, I’m a platinum member, I’ve spent a ridiculous amount of money with you, we’re gonna figure this out together. And they did it. And so when I told my friend, I’m like, I’m sorry, but I reserve the right if somebody’s been a part of our coalition, or they bought two courses. And they’re in a tough financial spot and actual tough financial spot, and I’m just using it as leverage for me to give them a discount be like, You know what, I know, you’re good for it, you’re in the family, you’ve been here before do it. And if you’re going to tell me that’s gonna keep me scaling my business, I’m gonna say that’s bullshit. Because every business all around the world has loyalty programs and things that they can pull for people that are there. And I just think that that’s another thing that people don’t understand. They expect the world from you. They expect the world from everybody else. But there’s no accountability on their end. It’s just this sickness of more this entitlement. And they’ll actually use guilt to act like you’re selfish, when in reality, right? Like, they’re just like they’re entitled, and how it took me a long time to cope with that care, I wonder, did that ever eat away at you just knowing there’s this expectation in our profession, because of the colloquial nature of coaching, that you’re just simply share your thoughts with everybody for free


Keir Wenham-Flatt  46:26  

two things. One, that’s not how I feed my kid. So that’s nothing crosses that line, and two the more I give away, the more I disrespect the people that have paid me money to get that stuff. And I’m more interested in looking after those people, like you said that relationship and and upholding my side of that relationship, and not paying a disrespect to them. And then just from the mechanics of the business, the more you give away, the more premium offering you have to offer to customers their pain. Yeah. Which is, which is great. You shouldn’t be striving to do that. But it can be difficult to do.


Brett Bartholomew  47:02  

I think that makes a lot of sense. What about this one, we got a question from one of our listeners, and I’ll paraphrase because it was kind of a paragraph. And they were talking about how, they’re in the performance industry. And they very much want to branch out and all these things, too. But they’re having trouble getting over the insecurity of feeling like, the more I spend learning other trades or other aspects, am I going to basically get behind in strength and conditioning, whether it’s research, they’re almost kind of scared, they’re going to miss out on something that is then going to make them less skilled at that, whether it’s sports science related research, whether it’s research of training, I know what my answer would be, but I’m not the guest on this show. What are your thoughts of how they need to diversify that time and whether or not they really need to worry? And of course, I know, it depends where they’re at, and their knowledge base already, and all those things. But do you think that people really are going to lose all that much if they’re, reasonably well rounded in their knowledge around the basics, understanding and as anatomy physiology, they’ve kind of practice for a while? Are they gonna get behind if they focus somewhere else, you know, for a year and all that?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  48:05  

Yeah, who cares? Like you can just you can pay people to do it for you. Like, seriously, 


Brett Bartholomew  48:11  

collaborate on it, I want to  


Keir Wenham-Flatt  48:14  

there’s no free lunch, whatever it is you want. There’s a cost to that. There is no free lunch whatsoever. Anything ever. I figured out, it took me 36 years, I figured it out. So when you’re diversifying into, other stuff. Yeah, you might lose a little, but the thinking and the hope is that you’re so far ahead at that point, you can afford to take the foot off the gas a little bit. And to build that diversification into what it is you do. Because, you know, specialization versus robustness. If the zombie apocalypse happened tomorrow, they’re all going to be driving Toyota Hilux is like the Taliban, they’re not going to be driving Ferraris. That’s the difference. So you, should as you alluded to earlier, as a coach, you should not aspire to have one gig. the customer that has started the business that has one customer is run by an idiot, and you’re the CEO of you, if you have one customer who cares how good your support sciences or or this aspect or that it’s the price that you pay for building that robustness?


Brett Bartholomew  49:29  

Yeah, I think two people overestimate it’s funny, we talk a lot about principle based learning. I think people overestimate the speed at which things change like I don’t know anything that in the past two decades in strength conditioning that has changed all that much. I mean, if we learn plyometrics as don’t work, we learn that you know, basic, just good foundational strength training doesn’t work. If anything, I’d say we’ve kind of stepped over the edge. I mean, not everything that you just progress. And I think we’re getting into the point where Almost the research today is doing a better job at causing more confusion, as opposed to more clarity. Because otherwise, why would we see the same questions being asked by coaches again and again. And again, it’s not for lack of the amount of research that’s out there. It’s because of the lack of discerning professionals who can think big picture. It’s just not there, like Coach developments broken


Keir Wenham-Flatt  50:22  

the integration and the management of those elements. We’re now at the point where those improvements in performance are going to come from how the pieces are organized, rather than what’s the hot new thing? In my opinion. Yeah. Especially in team sports.


Brett Bartholomew  50:38  

No, I agree, I think. And do you have a way for managing that now, like, you know, in terms of how you manage the amount of information you’ve got, like you said, you have a real estate aspect of what you do. You still coach, you do an online business? How do you manage your own education, in terms of diversifying those things? Right, and especially because let me contextualize the question. When we launched our online course bought in I remember, like 2017 2018, online ads worked really well. And within seven days, we had a huge launch of that. Facebook into or Apple,


Keir Wenham-Flatt  51:15  

iOS, dude, iOS update killed me.


Brett Bartholomew  51:18  

Here’s the thing most people don’t understand and for anybody not listening brief aside, right. When we hear an iOS update changes privacy, we all think, oh, there’s that’s great. And there are many great things about that, of course, privacy can be commoditized. But really what that hurt was small businesses, right? That doesn’t hurt the Nikes, and the Adidas and people like that, that they can advertise on Hulu and Spotify, and during the Superbowl, whatever. But all of a sudden, any ads that we spent, you know, there was a year we might as well have taken 30 to $45,000 and just burned it.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  51:50  

I reckon my acquisition costs have doubled.


Brett Bartholomew  51:53  

Yeah, yeah. And so when you think of that, we have to then I think of this week, we’re looking at doing a membership site at some point, because we don’t want to keep giving our information to these social media platforms that out of 100,000 followers 20,000 may ever see it, you don’t want to just throw it into the abyss, there’s people that would actually be happy to pay for that. And then for us, we want to give those people are the majority of our time, and that, but we have to learn about that we have to make sure we’re keeping our p&l is in line, I still keep on top of strength and conditioning. You know, we focused on the communication and social science side, which is, the heart of what we do. There’s a million things we got to learn about. And I imagine you the same thing staying on top of code and this and that legalities, how do you manage your own education in terms of the breadth and the speed of things that come at us now,


Keir Wenham-Flatt  52:42  

I am not strategic at all. Like I one of the things that I’ve always been lucky about growing up was memory, I can retain things pretty well, I didn’t write notes through my undergraduate degree I started at masters level, should probably start taking notes. What it is, it just what interests me, I think I try a lot of things, I find problems and I’m like, right, this needs to be fixed. I try and educate myself, you cut their head off the Hydra another one pops up, like, right, it’s just, that’s all I think learning is, is trying to solve problems and it’s a lot easier to sell with the windows of trying to learn about stuff that interests you, I do think you know, there are certain fundamental skills that you need, for example, to be a coach. And one of the things you know, I feel like you’ve you’ve touched on your niche that you drew attention to that people forget is, unless you live in North Korea, everything you do as a coach is persuasion. So you have a great plan for that,


Brett Bartholomew  53:52  

can I put that on our website, I’ll just put that on our website


Keir Wenham-Flatt  53:56  

You know, everything that you do as a coach, or everything that gets achieved as a coach in a sports organization is because somebody has decided that is in their interest to do so based on information provided to them. You are the provider of that information, you package how it’s delivered and how it’s received and all that kind of stuff. So there I in fact, I’ve got I did a coach audit. Let me let me get it up I’ll tell you what is in the coach order. Okay, so we have


Brett Bartholomew  54:27  

this is something you’d use with like evaluating


Keir Wenham-Flatt  54:30  

coaches come in. We asked coaches to self evaluate on a one to four point scale and then we add up so to basically identify just like we wouldn’t, you know, this is the way we put it across. with with an athlete. You understand if there’s a roomful of athletes, a cookie cutter program is not going to optimize their results. You need to know Hey, he needs more hypertrophy, he needs more strength. He needs this. He needs that same thing with coaches. So this is why going to the weekend conference Since getting your three CPUs and going out on the beers is probably not the best approach. That’s my plug for strength coach network. So a career in personal development, how do you make connections? How do you contact people and ask for opportunities? When you interact with other coaches? How much do you talk about yourself? How much do you talk about them? What’s the nature of your interactions? How do you schedule meetings? How do you ask for help? How do you apply for jobs? Are you asked versus do you apply code? When you interview? Is it a two way conversation that you’re trying to help them they’re trying to help you? Or is it feel like you’re interrogating with a light in your face? Yeah, theoretical knowledge and understanding all the stuff that everyone would think about? Interpersonal skills, apply knowledge, 


Brett Bartholomew  55:42  

those are important


Keir Wenham-Flatt  55:45  

applied knowledge and skill, because you’ve probably interacted with coaches, you speak to them, it’s like speaking to the textbook. And then you ask them, Can you get an athlete in front of you to do what is in your head? Fundamentally, to me coaching is can you get someone to do what is in your head? No. That would be the applied knowledge and skill, programming, monitoring adjustment. What do you do when stuff doesn’t work out? self reflection and iteration of practice. So the ability to be self aware, self critical, come up with plans for future development. Those are the ones that we came up with.


Brett Bartholomew  56:20  

Yeah, I think that’s wonderful. And if you don’t mind showing that to us, we’ll put a link for that. If you have that online and draw attention to that, there, there’s a couple more things, I want to ask you being respectful of your time, and then making sure to give you the last word. And of course, we’ll put all your resources in the show notes and spread them all over. This originally wasn’t even on I don’t even know that there was an agenda today to talk to you about certain things. But this is something that I think that you have good insight on the future of coach education, right. And you mentioned a little bit of it, we both come from a time where you pay a certain amount of money to go get your CEUs large conference or regional conference, nondescript conference rooms, people, sometimes some great speakers, as with any field, some other people that maybe just because they’re in a certain position, or maybe they weren’t in pro, they’re speaking, but maybe they shouldn’t be, I think sometimes people forget, just because you’re a great coach doesn’t mean you’re a great presenter. And just because you’re a great presenter doesn’t mean you’re a great coach,  but that not a lot of it was hands on. And this is something I think we’ve seen, even surveying people that come to our events from other fields, they all deal with the same problem. That’s, a big part of our mission statement is, it’s got to be hands on, it’s got to be very, very iterative. And those things, but it gets us thinking about what the future of education is. And of course, there’s going to be an online component, something that you specialize in, in a unique way of coding, because that’s just the world as it like, what regardless of how we feel about it, this is how the world is right. I always think that live events, there could be a million variations of COVID live events aren’t going away. People want to connect, they want to be streaming, I don’t know, that’s kind of online, I think people are hit or miss with that. But I want to get an idea of what you think, is or is not the future of coach or broadly, even just leadership education. And like, how does this stuff need to change if we’re going to have more than just mouth breathing? Kind of individuals wandering around, kinda?


Keir Wenham-Flatt  58:19  

Well, I mean, can I tell you, it’s none of those things, what I feel, I’m not sure if it’s gonna happen. But what needs to happen is, I believe, and I’ve written about it, I believe there is a fundamental conflict of interest at the heart of strength and conditioning education. So let’s put it like this. If you are an accreditor, for professionals of a given field, what is the population that you serve?


Brett Bartholomew  58:47  

In this case, individuals, I know that only I like for the NSCA. I’ll just say it bluntly, they will not give see us to our stuff that is entrepreneurial or about burnout or anything like that, because


Keir Wenham-Flatt  59:01  

 I’m just talking about, you know, what purpose is that you serve? So when you act as the accreditor, I think it’s fair to say that you serve the interests of the consumer. So the the act of accrediting a coach is on paper to protect athletes or clients of trainers, and that can’t exactly say, you are good enough. We’re going to protect the consumers by, getting rid of anyone that’s below the standard. You cannot work with these people so that you work you serve the consumer. When you’re an educator, who do you serve, you serve the people taking the education, attempting to clear the barrier to accreditation or to deliver more value to your customers. So the accreditor within reason, wants the barrier to entry to be as high as possible and to let in less and less people so that they can say, Look how high quality our accreditation is. Look how Do people have this qualification? It becomes scarce and it becomes valuable. Just as an aside, everyone has their CSCs. What did they bring out a couple years ago. Now you can be a CSC SD or a CSCS, whatever,


Brett Bartholomew  1:00:12  

which for those of you listening, not in the field, this is just your good. It’s a certification designation. There’s no licensure and performance realm. So it is basically the bare minimum that you need in certain contexts to be a registered or Certified Strength and conditioning coach, this is not a like a, if you go to a 24 hour fitness, they have their own commercial thing. That’s the CSCs. And other variations are nationally recognized, but as with most things, they are not without their imperfections. Yeah. 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  1:00:41  

So they added a couple of levels. So now there’s an even more valuable one and one above that, because they’re more scarce. Yeah. So when you’re the educator, you, as the educator, you want as many people as possible to pass, wow, I took Brett’s course, I pass the accreditation, you tell all your friends, they come through the front door, and it brings them more business for you. So when you’re the creditor, you want less people to pass. And when you’re the educator, you want more people to pass. So if you act as both a creditor and educator, imagine on the NSCA, yeah, you pass the accreditation, great job, NSCA more people come in for accreditation. If you fail the accreditation, I can say, well look how valuable that accreditation is. So when you win, I win. And when you lose, I win. Yeah, as a fundamental disconnect that you don’t see in other fields, you don’t have the DMV selling driving lessons. You don’t have the series seven exam to be a stockbroker having a contact my stockbroker course. So to me, any accreditation that is not audited by an independent third party is controlling both sides of the market. Yeah. And you only have to look at the NSCA, the CSCCA and other organizations. The easiest, and sometimes the only route to get the sufficiency used to retain your accreditation is to go to that conference. It’s cooking the books. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:11  

Oh, I mean, 100. And we look at this the other day, and there were times where I wouldn’t really talk about this, but we don’t really care. Now, if somebody asked me, Hey, are you going to the CSCCA, which for those listening is collegiate strength and conditioning, blah, blah, blah? And I was like, No, you know, as a matter of fact, I think that’s one thing in our organs, like in my career I’ve never been asked to speak to, and they go, does that piss you off? I go, No, not really. And  if I’m being honest, like you think about that, like not going to speak to that I speak, you know, spoken routinely for NSCA, and whatever. But I remember, and this is where you don’t want to sound the wrong way. But you just hope people understand the message. And they understand it for themselves, too. It goes back to one time where we gave a quote to a college, and they’re like, Nah, we can’t do it, we can get somebody else to do it cheaper. The next day, a financial organization pays us 10,000 to go speak for 60 minutes. Why fight to like, make you know what I mean? Like, it’s there are certain things that you just need to be okay with guys that are not for you, they’re not for you. And you need to quit worrying about that there would be one time in my life early on, where I would feel burnt, like, oh, you know what the hell I’m not respected. I’m gonna like, but when you want to fight for that small sliver of a pie that isn’t even indicative of like, who you are the values that you espouse, or the target audience that you want. Don’t sweat that, 


now I’ll give credit to the NSCA. Like for some some things like we’ve talked to them, like why would you not certify our course on burnout? Or why would they not certify certain things on yours? And they’re like, well, listen, we have to go through another process that would have to change our certification. And I get that there’s bureaucracy with that. But there also needs to be a fundamental question then of them saying, Well, why isn’t that shit covered? Right? Why isn’t that covered then? And at what point like, let’s say we’re missing something that you do extraordinarily well here. And I’m like, I don’t know, it would cost us about $6,000 or whatever. To go back into it, we’d have to pause. Well, if I’m a problem solver, and you’re a problem solver, we figure out a way to do that together. You know, like even if you and I were enemies, let’s say you and I we don’t get along, I think you’re shit. You think I’m shit. 


Keir Wenham-Flatt  1:04:16  

There are people out there that think that 


Brett Bartholomew  1:04:18  

I don’t get it? But like, let’s say we were, at some point, you would think that we’d at least call each other and be like, hey, certain thing you don’t you do is not for me and vice versa. But we could probably make some money together and we can probably draw a larger audience together. Let’s figure it out. I mean, this is how people figure out public policy. This is how people figure out think of all if they can get damn Tobey Maguire, and Tom whatever and Andrew Garfield is three damn Spider Man You and I can figure out how to do business. So I just think that all is being said right. You made some wonderful points. You can’t control both sides of that market. And if you do you hope that there’s people that realize that’s happening. I mean, there was people early on they were like, I’d love to take your course but that or that’s not see you have Have them if that’s how you’re choosing your Con Ed, then you’re always going to be behind the eight


Keir Wenham-Flatt  1:05:05  

ball. It’s it becomes a an exercise and checking a box. And you only hit you have to notice as well. I forget which cause it was I was talking to, but there are conferences or Yeah, like conferences you can go to you just go there, sign your name on the paper, go to the bar, that’s your CEUs for the next. Yeah, you can go to a four day mentorship. Like I don’t know how long is up, but you can be doing 12 hours a day, and they’ll be like our path to see you. Yeah, and we’re crushing it.


Brett Bartholomew  1:05:36  

We’re decks to be honest, we don’t hand out any CPUs or any certificate or anything, until they’ve filled out the post review form and all that we don’t consider you are not done until you have attended still, you’re just trying to like because I just I can’t stand people that don’t want to put skin in the game, because those are the same people that will want to say, something’s not good, or bla bla bla, right. And it’s the same thing for our online stuff. Like you have to pass this course we had somebody the other day, that asked for a refund, despite the fact they had watched the intro video, you know, and so that, that we had to change our return policy and say, Hey, unless you’ve made a reasonable attempt to get him the material, don’t do the intro video and then say I want my money, because we also saw they downloaded everything. So let me get this straight. You didn’t learn anything. But you downloaded everything. I’m sure that’s not on a gray market site somewhere.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  1:06:26  

But you know, the way that I look at that is every process money well spent to get rid of him?


Brett Bartholomew  1:06:32  

Oh, at that point, it’s an act. So tell me more about if I want to, if I want to sign up for your stuff. What is it? How can I sign up for what what do you not do? Who are you for? Give us the pitch because our audience gives a shit and they and guys even if you’re not in strength conditioning, I want to hedge it with this. You know, somebody who knows somebody who plays sports or wants to get better physically or wants to learn more about what not to do if they’re trying out for their team. This can help anybody in your network in your audience. So give it a look, no matter what field you’re in here. Tell us about it.


Keir Wenham-Flatt  1:07:07  

I’m going to disappoint you where we actually we close the site until December we will lie right? Yeah.


Brett Bartholomew  1:07:12  

Wait, what goes on in December? Because listen, that’s,


Keir Wenham-Flatt  1:07:16  

you know, it gets to the point where with so I should say I’m just here for the pure love. But not the way when it got to is like at a certain point. I’m done persuading people, Hey, join strength coach network. And we internally we call them tire kickers sign up for sign up for $1 Cancel, sign up for $1 cancel, and say hey, listen, this is our audience. This is what we feel comfortable giving to people the size of our audience. So just so you know. And of course, it massively boosted revenue and conversions, hey, we’re gonna close transcreation network until December if you want to be a part of it, come on in. If you don’t, that’s it until December. So from a financial perspective, what we’re doing is we’re taking all that ad money with the ad manager salary and taking the money off the table. And, a little bit of a velvet rope to say to people, Hey, here’s what’s going on in the site, if you want to be a part of it, you can join up in December, which you alluded to is when people are in the mood to spend money. It’s a strength coach And the way that I’ve described it is we fill the gaps that are left by accreditation, higher education. And, there’s other courses out there, if you find yourself in the enviable position of arriving at a professional sports organization or a collegiate one, you quickly find out that those things alone are not going to prepare you for the realities of that job. So we try and provide real world education from elite level coaches on we call them Monday morning topics. That’s stuff that you can use on Monday. Networking, accepting the fact that who you know gets you hired what you know, keeps you in the job. So we link up coaches all over the world. We will like renting people’s interviews, getting ready helped them with contract negotiations. We also give it a little bit advice in the business of coaching, how you can make yourself robust to the realities of coaching and all that all that different stuff really, but basically, we in a nutshell, we want to help. team sport, strength and conditioning coaches have the longest, most productive, most rewarding careers that they can.


Brett Bartholomew  1:09:29  

And that’s a perfect point man. I think that’s perfect and what we’ll do despite that being closed till December is we’ll make sure to put all your social media handles everything else below. And guys remember our guests come on here and they are giving their time and their knowledge and their perspective for free. Please support them, even if they’re not in your direct like area of interest, whatever send it to somebody who knows it. It is a small, small world and reciprocity is huge here, I appreciate you just being so forthright, honest open up out conversation. Just most people in our field I think are still unfortunately really hesitant about having despite them being the things that need to go forward and I know people and other professionals listening to this do the same things are going to be inspired too man. So I want to say thank you and I appreciate you and it’s an honor to be your friend. Likewise,


Keir Wenham-Flatt  1:10:18  

bro. You know, it’s you’ve been the pioneer in that stuff and to see everything you’ve done that it’s awesome.


Brett Bartholomew  1:10:25  

 I appreciate it man, guys, until next time, art of coaching podcast talk to you soon.

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  • Josh McMillian

    Enjoyed listening to this. Keir puts a lot of great info out on strength coach network.

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