In Art Of Coaching Podcast, Podcasts

When it comes to personal and professional development we all know books, podcasts and seminars won’t cut it. Simply put- greater input doesn’t equal better output.

At a certain point, we need community, accountability and exposure to a diversity of thoughts and perspectives; We need help tackling our unique obstacles and highlighting our blindspots.  

On today’s episode we discuss the single BEST thing you can do for your personal and professional development as well as:

  • The obstacles all leaders face
  • The advantages of community and how to find the right one
  • Advantages of being around people who think differently 
  • Overcoming excuses & constraints relating to money, time and experience
  • How to find and foster accountability in your life

By the way, if you’re interested in a community like this, check out The Coalition. We’re biased, but if you’re in search of a personal board of directors, think tank and way to get around great leaders who will help you build a plan forward, it doesn’t get much better than this. 

We only run these twice a year and always fill up quickly! Check out for all details! 

Also, we’re giving away a FREE barbell courtesy of our premier sponsor- Dynamic Fitness and Strength! If you’re interested check out @aocoaching on IG for instructions and get started.   

Athletic Greens is going to give you a FREE 1 year supply of immune-supporting Vitamin D AND 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit Again, that is to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance!


Brett Bartholomew  0:11  

This episode of The Art of coaching podcast is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I started taking athletic greens because I wanted to see what all the hype was about. I mean bottom line, I’m a big fundamentals not fluff person, I constantly fell short of what my daily nutrient intake would be, mainly because of food and hectic coaching schedule, getting busy being a parent, but mainly travel. So Athletic Greens was a great way to cover those bases. For less than $3 a day. It’s a small micro habit with huge benefits. They use the best of the best products based on the latest science with constant product iterations and third party testing. Right now it’s time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition is just one scoop and a cup of water every day. That’s it. And sometimes I’ll use orange juice or something else, there’s no need for a million different pills, and supplements. So look out for your health. To make it easy Athletic Greens is going to give you a free one year supply of immune supporting vitamin D and fight free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit There’s not a better URL than that Again, that is to take ownership over your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. 


All right, art of coaching family, you know, you also know we pride ourselves on teaching and sharing knowledge about communication, interpersonal skills and leadership. But at the end of the day, we’re still coaches and my background is in human performance. So I love to train hard. This week, we are teaming up with our premier sponsor Dynamic fitness and strength. For a sweet giveaway. They’re going to be sending one lucky winner a dynamic fitness and strength barbell top of the line. I mean, these things were impossible to find during the pandemic. So on May 16 2022, we’ll post the instructions on how to enter on our Instagram page that’s @aocoaching at a o coaching. The winners are going to be announced on May 23. Please don’t make the following mistake. Sometimes people hear about giveaways you’re gonna win. Well guess what? Everybody thinks that. So you’d be surprised at how few people actually put skin in the game and go do it. You have a tremendous chance of winning here. You got to play to win. There’s no purchase necessary. There’s no loopholes, tions anything, you just need to be a US resident over the age of 18 with a non private Instagram account because guess what we need to be able to see it and communicate with you. So go follow and good luck


Welcome to the Art of coaching Podcast. I’m Brett Bartholomew. And at a young age poor communication nearly cost me my life. Now, I help others navigate the gray area of social interaction, power dynamics and communication so they can become more adaptable leaders regardless of their profession, age or situation. This podcast is for everybody who is fascinated with solving people problems. So if you’re in the no nonsense type who appreciates frank conversations, advice you can put to use immediately and learning how others navigate the messy realities of leadership. You’re in the right place. I’m glad that you’re joining us. Let’s dive in


welcome back to another episode of The Art of coaching podcast guys. I am here with three of my friends and colleagues, Ali Kirschner, 


Ali Kershner  4:06  



Brett Bartholomew  4:07  

Jacob Swart. 


Jacob Swart  4:08  

What’s up y’all 


Brett Bartholomew  4:09  

and the owner of Forbes magazine,  Dan Forbes, Dan,


Dan Forbes  4:12  

how are we?


Brett Bartholomew  4:13  

How are we a very inclusive Dan, we are good. And that includes all the voices in my head too. And guys, today we have a pretty straightforward topic. And when you asked other coaches and remember at art of coaching, we talked about coaching, being synonymous with leadership. Their goals are always oh, I want to improve, I want to improve I want to be amongst the best at what I do. And so we want to do an episode centered around one of the top things me and my colleagues and many of us have ever done in our career to improve the most so straightforward we know that things like experience right experience is something you can’t get past you’re always going to get better by putting your hands in the dirt and getting after it but you know in a world that is always about reading more books or listening to podcasts, right what is something else you do that has made the biggest improvement in your life 


and for me It was something that came about in a way that I was really kind of caught off guard by, you know, we all know that community can be important. And you know, I like to think that I have a lot of good friends in my network, a lot of good people in my network. But one issue that I have is I don’t like bugging people. And so I found myself at a point in my career when I was trying to write a book when I was trying to start my own business when I was kind of crossing over and doing more than just becoming a strength and conditioning coach. And I found myself in this unfamiliar territory, where I didn’t want to bother a lot of my friends, when I needed advice. You know, there are some friends that would say, Hey, if you need any help with this, let me know. And that’s great, but they have lives of their own. Or on the other hand, I would have friends that are very accomplished in what they do. But maybe they hadn’t written a book, maybe they didn’t do a speaking career, maybe they had a kind of a different path. And so I came across a problem where I didn’t really know even who to ask for help. 


So I remember looking around, and you know, you hear that you’ve tried to read books, like I said, you try to do podcasts, and you try to figure out what else is out there. And then came the mastermind stuff, right, and I don’t know how many of you can relate to this. But you know, the concept of a mastermind is pretty foreign to me. And anytime I found one, it was always like, Oh, you have to have a business that made half a million dollars, or, you know, in some $30,000 entrance fee, or some of them were free. And when I would do them, it was just like, you wouldn’t really get much out of it, because nobody was really invested. But long story short, I just decided, alright, you know, what, I’m going to create my own group, I’m gonna find a group of people who you know, are damn good at what they do in their day job. But they also are interested in pursuing something outside of that a bigger game, something that allows them to have a little bit more freedom, a little bit more autonomy, and a personal board of directors, people that would actively and in a healthy way, disagree with you, if you had a bad idea, or kind of helped guide you and massage some of the better ideas out of you. So I decided to create something about three and a half years ago called The coalition that was just that something that would really allow anybody, no matter who they are, no matter what age race, no matter what experience, level, how much money they made, or didn’t make just this island of misfit toys to come together, and just share some of their ideas, coach each other, find ways to help each other, get out of their own way and build it. 


And so why Ali Jake and Dan are on here is not only have they been parts of the coalition in the past, but they are now fellow coaches in it. And so guys, I want to turn it to you a little bit, give you some insight into kind of my story why I started this thing. I’d be interested to hear, you know, do you feel like this is also reflective of some things that you guys have done to improve more in your career? If so, what were some of those problems? Like, what was that journey? Like? Because you have very diverse backgrounds? Ali, let’s start with you.


Ali Kershner  7:43  

Yeah, no, it’s it’s a good question. You know, I first came to the coalition as a member, like a, you know, a, somebody who was in it, and now I’m kind of help facilitating, so I’ve kind of seen both sides. But initially, when I came to it, it was a really great space for somebody like myself, who has a very loud internal voice, and has a lot of decisions to make, but often doesn’t feel  like, I personally don’t feel like I can share everything about what I’m going through. Because, you know, I think from the outside looking in, like, one I want to appear like I haven’t figured out because, you know, just like the confidence of being a coach and being a leader. And also just like, I, like you never found a place where I really could get tactical feedback, like I would always get, you know, emotional feedback, or, yeah, you’re on the right track. Or, you know, of course, I would have my parents who always have opinions, and I love them dearly. But that’s not what I was looking for, like I needed somebody who had been through what I was going through, and could help me kind of, you know, tackle some different avenues and be that descent, like you were saying that I really wasn’t find anywhere else. And so yeah, I guess the thing I was looking for early in my career, and still is a place where I can come and genuinely feel safe sharing what I’m going through and not feel judged. Not feel like I’m burdening anyone and just really get some tactical advice.


Brett Bartholomew  9:07  

And for people that are maybe just listening and getting to know you for the first time, Ali, what was that background like? Because there are certain people I know for myself, like I was in a job at one point in time where I really couldn’t do anything external, right? We had a strict kind of contract that said, hey, no matter what I wanted to do, whether it was writing a book, whether it was speaking, that just wasn’t allowed. I mean, that was the case. Even when I launched conscious coaching. I had no newsletter. I had no podcast, you couldn’t do these things. What was your background? And like, for anybody that’s thinking like, Yeah, but I don’t have the time or my jobs a little bit different. I can’t do that. And they might see themselves in you. What was your background originally?


Ali Kershner  9:46  

Yeah, so I came up in strength and conditioning. I worked first as a graduate assistant at the University of Kansas. And then I made my way to Stanford where I worked with women’s basketball and women’s golf. So I’ve always been, I guess before before now, I would always Been in collegiate strength and conditioning, and always, you know, had a pretty, you know, well defined role and job in that and still found myself wondering like, how else can I impact people’s lives, you know, like, it can obviously have a great impact in the 15 people who are in front of me, or 50, or 150. But, you know, like, part of me was always like, full, I feel like this message could reach more people are like, How can I help? How can I help more and more and more, and it was sometimes difficult for me to not feel like I was overstepping boundaries like that I had with my title at a university, and not feeling like I was spending time elsewhere when I needed to be with my team. And, you know, like, how do I provide more value, but also adhere to the responsibilities that I had on a day to day basis within my role, you know, at a school?


Brett Bartholomew  10:48  

Now, that gives a lot more context. I appreciate that. Jake, how about you, what’s one of the biggest things you’ve done to improve professionally beyond just getting experience beyond reading subject matter knowledge and give a little insight into your background to for somebody that’s not familiar?


Jacob Swart  11:03  

Yeah, I was just gonna build off of what you’re talking about earlier, where, you know, we grew up in this age, or this era of like podcasts and reading all the books like, Man, I remember there’s for you, the guy will or there’s, there’s gotta be something that he reads like one business book a week, I was like, that’s insane. Because like, in my mind, I wasn’t sure like how you would apply all that knowledge? And if you’re just reading to read, like, just to say like, is that a bragging point that you have? Now, don’t get me wrong, I definitely enjoy. I don’t typically read for pleasure. That’s probably something I need to like work on. But I read a lot of business books. But what ends up happening, I find is that you’re just listening to a super polished version of what somebody’s story, right? Like, this person has, like, you know, they’ve got Ghost Riders, they’ve got publicists, they’ve got their, it’s very vanilla, because they’re trying to, they’re trying to appeal to audiences. And I get it, like they’re trying to sell as many books as they can, which is fine. But, man, the real turning point in my career is when I found out what the power of being a part of the right network is, or the power being in the right room is, and that’s not just from, like, happy that’s not like just trying to be a kiss ass, I guess you could say are trying to be around people. And it’s actually like being a part of a room not just being in the room. So man, like when we started like. So I’ve been in a different type of coalition. I’ve been a number of different like mentorship groups, right? And I think that’s what’s really powerful about what’s kind of going on here. Like we’ve seen it. From many of the members, myself included, like this transformation that they kind of go through nothing like some weird bluey life transformation, but from like, oh, okay, here’s this tactical piece of information, like what Ali was talking about this tactical feedback, I can take like, we’re kind of working through problems that we that I have, and that I can apply to my situation. Because humans are messy, each situation is totally personal. 


And but at the same time, like, we’ve all been through similar ones, too. Like we know the mistakes that we’ve all made. And the power being around people that are willing to share the mistakes that they’ve made, is so much more valuable than just trying someone trying to go around like, I’ve been in the same situation as what Ali was talking about where you don’t want to seem like you don’t know, right? Or you don’t want to seem like you’re not the expert, because you’re supposed to be as the coach, as a leader s the physical therapist, like, you’re supposed to be that person that has all the answers. And it’s a very powerful position to be in, when you can be in a room around with like, people who have similar ambitions as you and want to see you succeed and want to actually like, challenge your thought processes and change the lens that what you see the world through, like, Man, that’s a game changer for anybody in any career state that they’re in. 


Brett Bartholomew  13:47  

Yeah, well, you touch on two things there. Before we go over to Dan is one. You know, it’s interesting because you use the term network. And I remember one thing that led me down prior another reason I wanted to start the coalition is, you know, previously in like strength and conditioning, if there was a quote, unquote, networking event at a conference, it was always some like, you know, crappy lunch or dinner at some nondescript conference room where like, 300 people that are kind of putting on a front or a facade we’re in, and maybe you exchange business cards, but like, nothing really came out of that. No, that’s not networking. And like, I wrote an article a long time ago called like, networked or networking, and because most people go into those things, just feeling like what can I get out of it, as opposed to what can they do? And I thought that was always problematic, too, because you always hear about networking, and I’m like, what is it at this point? Like, if anything that term, you know, it always turned me off and so like, you speak into community and everything is a huge piece there. 


And I think another valuable thing you said is is speaking like yeah, get around people with different mentalities which we’ll talk more about later. I know Ali has especially like victim views about is like, there are a lot of people that think they’re improving, but really, they’re just in an echo chamber and I don’t know about you guys, but I don’t want to be in control, or the lead and everything that I do in my life. Like I like being around other people. Now. Where like, I don’t mind feeling dumb. I don’t mind feeling like, Okay, I’m the student, there needed to be some points in my life after I because I, you know, I’d coach people all day, and then you’d go home and then you’d get you’d be in charge of almost every aspect of your life. And so it just felt good to let go a little bit. Did you have something there before we go to Dan?


Jacob Swart  15:18  

Yeah, I was just gonna say like, I love what you’re talking about there with like, net worked? Are you our network is that what is that what is


Brett Bartholomew  15:25  

net worked ED or networking meaning like, just I always felt like you got worked over by somebody, there’s always an angle totally


Jacob Swart  15:32  

Well, and what I think about like networking, right, and when you’re doing it in a way that’s actually gonna be advantageous to everybody involved, as you’re building relationships, and professional personal relationships that they want to see everybody succeed with, like networking or network, like you’re talking about where you’re just in a room and like, collecting business cards, like man that just doesn’t do anything. Like, I’m a little bit more lighthearted way, our thing or example, like, that’s why we stopped going to as a company, we stopped going to, like massive, like, five K’s or races and setting up a tent or whatever, like all these other businesses do, because what we realized is we’re just getting networked, right? Like everybody’s just coming to our table wanting free shit like nobody’s like, really want to understand like what we do, and we’re not building any relationships in that 22nd time frame that we get somebody to get from somebody. So it was very transactional versus a deep relationship. And that’s, a never place you want to be.


Brett Bartholomew  16:24  

Yeah, no question. I mean, I think even vendors, people that are going to a lot of our sponsors have said you know, that they value going to things that are smaller and more intimate now, as opposed to these like mega events, or like you said, five K’s because they just realized people come for the free thing they never really get to know themB. 


Dan, how about you give us a little insight into your background? And when you felt like alright, yeah, it’s time to find a community because the traditional ways of improving professionally and personally just weren’t cutting it.


Dan Forbes  16:48  

Yeah. So this year, my coaching mileage hit its 20th year. And so I started off in the gym floor, big box gym, and I did my years of being a personal trainer, I took a fairly traditional path, shall we say, for for the first decade, I developed, stepped away to develop my own business and eventually opened my own gym. And then I started a family and I needed to pivot and things needed to change. I have a son with very complex needs. And that changed everything for me. And at that point, I had some real big constraints put on me. And I needed to think outside the box of how I was going to continue developing because there was no way I was going to stand still, who’s no one’s gonna be like, Okay, this is me now, I needed to keep pushing on. And what I found was, like, I just kept coming across these mentors and communities. And actually, nobody was listening. It was just a case of, hey, you know, I explained my story and what was going on? And essentially, I what I wanted to do was coach, make it scalable, but without diluting it, I didn’t want it to be like, Okay, let’s just take this cookie cutter approach. And every single, quote unquote, mentor was just trying to direct me down that aisle. What I loved when it came to the coalition was I was like, okay, cool. someone’s listening to where I am, someone’s taken on board, the constraint that I have, and isn’t just like, oh, trying to funnel me down a certain path. Instead, it’s like, okay, cool. Let’s figure this out. Where do we want to be? Let’s develop a roadmap. And you do that alongside a bunch of people from different backgrounds? Who are all kind of going in the same direction, but not necessarily to the same point?


Brett Bartholomew  18:31  

Yeah, well, I mean, and  to that effect, right. Like, I always remember like, I want to I want to help cultivating something clarifying which way I should go and connecting to people. And I liked that you mentioned I didn’t want to just get like you said, you didn’t want to get funneled down a certain route. That was another issue with these like mastermind terms. It was like all be a better man or, you know, be a have a billionaire mindset. You’re like, well, one, I don’t need to be a billionaire to be happy two not saying that. I’m a perfect man. But like, that’s not the only thing in my life I want to work on right. And so that was another thing is like, man, like, what about those of us that have diverse needs and diverse constraints. So I think you hit another a wonderful point there. 


Now, this is what I’m interested in next, right? So when I had to establish that need, and when you guys did, too, I know for me, there were certain obstacles around that. At this point in my life, I just funneled really my life savings into writing conscious coaching. So I wasn’t incredibly liquid. I was still coaching athletes year round. And then when I wasn’t coaching, I was usually speaking internationally. And I know like, none of these are humble brag. That was really stressful. Of course, it’s cool and it’s growth. But I mean, stress is all relative, but my point was is I was like one I couldn’t find a group and then two I didn’t know like well how did these things even get delivered? I know some of them I remember one guy was trying to charge me in it a ridiculous amount and basically the coaching was all going to be over email which is my least favorite medium and and he was like yeah, man, but then you get to come to my house, you know, twice in those six months. I’m like Oh, wow, one, I have to explain very complex things, you over email, then there’s a delay in your reply. But I get to go to your house once at the beginning once at the end, you know, and then there were other ones where it’s just like you’re in a zoom group with, like, 100 people. And so maybe over the course of that year, you know, you started doing the math, because how they broke it out, you are gonna get a talk like four times. And I’m not saying that you only improve by you talking, of course, you can take stuff from other people. But it just like it was really hard to find something that was individualized and also freeform. And so again, that’s like, I was like, alright, well, we need to make something a little bit smaller, something that can fit with schedules. But what were some of the obstacles that you guys face. And Jacob, we’ll start with you this time, you said you’ve been part of a number of communities, you have a wife, you have a baby on the way you run a business, you’re a practicing physical therapist that obviously goes within running a business you’re trying to move. Like I would imagine finding time is one constraint, but I’d rather hear it from you.


Jacob Swart  20:56  

Yeah, so explain your question a little bit more. I’m not sure like what, what’s the Ask here


Brett Bartholomew  21:02  

ask is obstacles. Right, like, like we established need community’s important? Right, candlelit? It can’t just get better by doing your job?


Jacob Swart  21:09  

 Well, I think yeah, I mean, there’s, there’s always gonna be obstacles, no matter what, right? Like, I can speak on the kids situation, like, there’s never going to be like a right time to have a kid like the perfect time to have a kid, there’s never going to be the perfect time to start a business, there’s never going to be the perfect time to buy a business, there’s never going to be a perfect time to do any big decision making process in life. It just won’t. Like there’s always going to be constraints, there’s always going to be like, a fear or like, there’s always going to be something that’s willing to that’s going to be an easy fallback to fall to take you away from that decision making process. Right. And I think that just falls in line with kind of like being an adult at some point. Like, I mean, that sounds like too hard to like, man, like you think about like growing up, especially, I’m sure there’s a lot of coaches that are listening right now, like therapists, like you go through school, or where it’s like, okay, there’s deadlines established for you, right? All the way to like elementary school, right? And then you go to college, you got exams I got to study for and then go on to your master’s program or your doctorate program and there’s different deadlines for you, there’s a national board exam yet that you have to take, and then you become an adult, and all those deadlines go away, right and like and it makes it very easy for you to just have excuses and procrastinate but that’s time is fleeting, and I think that the more that you make a decision and just make it the right decision right, no one to kind of like cut bait and move on like your be a part of the game is that is the mentality that I had to switch in my mind all the time or like it’s a very like tough process and and never gets easier because the decisions just get bigger but at some point you just have to trust yourself and know that those obstacles will always be there. But can you rise above them?


Brett Bartholomew  22:52  

Yeah, I mean, it’s something that my friend Luca Hocevar told me one time and you use the phrase new levels, new devils, I think about the excuses I would have made at 25 28 29 were all you know, I’m on the hit man. I’m on the floor from like six to six can’t do it. Now. You know, being a father and all this like when I lead the calls half the time it’s you know, after my son’s we put them to bed and trying to do a doctorate and a new book like you find time for what you prioritize, right. And I think that lens into some people like have this idleness aversion, they think they’re being productive. But again, they’re being productive in the wrong things, because nothing, is going to cultivate more progress than community 


Ali What’s your take on that? I mean, you were in collegiate strength and conditioning at the apotheosis won a national title dark, too dark. Like, where? And how did you find time? Or what other obstacles did you deal with?


Ali Kershner  23:36  

Yeah, you know, I mean, obviously, I struggled with the same time obstacle, or I guess the time constraints. But mine were different, right? Like, I don’t have kids. I have a dog kid. You know, and I’m a maybe a little bit on a different time spectrum than some of you guys on the call who have multiple children and new levels, new devils. But I mean, I think for me, maybe less of the time was the beat inside my own head too much. Like, I think that like the obstacle that I really face. And still face is I ingest so much information. And I don’t know what to do like, like which ones to put into action and which ones to, like, I’m still developing my filter.  I think the big thing that I’m looking for and trying to solve for all the time is, how to get in my own head. And like how to just do the thing and how to really stay open minded and more curious. I think one of the things that I realized is, as you rise the ladder or climb the ladder of your field, your profession, there’s less people to talk to that can resonate with your experience and like, it’s actually much lonelier at the top than it is when you’re coming up in the profession. And so like finding people who really can push you and resonate with you, and who are equally as curious and equally as scared by how much you know, or don’t know, is something hard to find. And so it’s like the Looking for, solutions to those problems was really more my ask then, you know, I knew I would make the time I knew if this was important to me I’d make the time. But yeah, for me it was just figuring out how to, I don’t know if it’s like a fear of the unknown, or if it’s not trusting myself fully yet or that lack of confidence. But for me, it’s definitely like finding a solution to feel what to do with all these voices in my head.


Brett Bartholomew  25:27  

So let’s say let’s go with that, let’s say somebody’s listening right now. And they’re in that position, right, where they feel like they’re doing everything they can for self improvement, professional development, but like you, there’s so many things coming in, right? And they feel like they gotta learn it all. I know, that’s something that I get hit up with a lot of people saying, Hey, guys, I want to do this, but I feel like I gotta learn that first. And then I’ll ask them, okay, well, how do you know when it’s time to move on to the next thing, then? When is it going to be enough? But what advice would you give somebody else that’s in your position? Now? How does it community is like, specifically, how did it community or in this case, the coalition help you with information overload?


Ali Kershner  25:59  

Yeah, honestly, I think it comes down to like what Jake said, setting deadlines for yourself, and like purposely making constraints in your life so that you’re forced to make decisions and you’re forced to take action on things. Because what is the it’s the law where you know, the work expands the time that you have available, so it for me, it was a matter of that. So anytime that somebody would challenge me, right, and this was something that I asked for actively is like, please give me a deadline, or like, prompt me to come up with a deadline to get this blog written. Or I know somebody and this was, I’m not saying that this is like, the end all be all challenge, and everybody should do this. But for me, it was super helpful was get used to posting every day on social media, or writing a piece of blogging material or getting your voice out there. Because that is something that was a challenge for me, like I truly, I wouldn’t, like have done that otherwise. And through that process, I realized, one, it’s not that scary. And two, it’s just a great way to get more reps. So setting deadlines and setting challenges for myself via a community that will hold me accountable.


Brett Bartholomew  27:09  

And speaking of challenges. I mean, that was one thing. And this will segue into Dan. You know, one thing we had to figure out when we did the coalition is if we’re going to open it up to everybody, including timezones like how do we do that? Right? You had you like, in the group, you were a part of, there were two different calls, because we always try to get you know, when guys if you’re wondering, like, if you ended up being interested in this, which you should be, I’m not gonna solve sell it to you. The most common question is, well, how do you make the calls work? Well, it’s really easy. We ask people for three to five times of availability, we put together a lot of options for people. And then we generally have one or two calls that you can choose, but I mean, Ali, you’re early morning person. So you were at 5am. Dan, you’re in the UK, right? And again, this goes to like, you make time for these things. We’ve had calls at night, we’ve had, it’s like, everybody figures this out, right? None of us like, these things are not impossible. 


So Dan, when we look at you, and we talked about constraints, you mentioned a little bit with your family, obviously, you have your client demands, then you’ve been in the UK, but you never miss a call. What are some other obstacles or things that, you know, you felt like? Yeah, it would be easy excuse for me to not do this, but I really need to double down on it and find a way.


Dan Forbes  28:13  

So I think the biggest thing, the easiest thing would have been time, I just don’t have the time to this, I have to wear so many hats. You know, like I mentioned my son, but I have to I have three kids total. Each of them demanding their own way, I run a two coaching businesses. On top of that I’m a carer for my son. And then I’m a person who also wants to do other things, like occasionally go out and try to have a dad bod. So I tried to fit all those things, it would have been so easy for me to go, I just don’t have time to do this stuff. But also, I realized that unless I try and make some change, I’m going to be stuck in this place where I’m just continually in the business. And I’m never gonna be able to step outside and start working on the business to develop it to a point where, hey, this isn’t I now have a business. I’m not just filling up my client list. And that was that was a big differentiator for me is that knowing, okay, I have to make this step in order to free up time towards the start, keep moving towards the life that I want to create.


Brett Bartholomew  29:15  

So let me ask you this, then Dan. You know, there are some people that probably and I know we’ve had past members of the coalition say one thing they struggled with was they didn’t even see what they did as a business. And I think that Jay Z quote, where he’s like, I’m not a businessman, I’m a business man. And his point was like, Yeah, you are a business just like we talked about your brand is your reputation. I don’t care if you you know, work at a golf course and you’re selling stuff off the beer cart or you’re a coach or your practicing attorney or, you know, whatever like you like we all are a reflection of our own reputation. But was there any time where you’re like, that transition of looking at yourself and wanting what you want to do as an entrepreneur, or as a business was tough for you because that’s not something inherent to coaching. If anything, that’s fine Like the opposite, we’re told as coaches. No, no, no, no, no, you should not do business stuff. You should not worry about the money. Was that ever a hard point for you? Or was that pretty natural evolution, given the way you looked at stuff?


Dan Forbes  30:11  

It was jarring, it was horrible. Like most coaches, I guess I’ve done enough free internships. You know, I’ve been around the block, I’ve done all these things to serve, and to realize, oh, hang on a second, if I want to do this, I have to start treating this like a business rather than just something that you know, I just do for a passion. And, you know, I’ll say it again, new levels, new devils, like, you have to make that step, you have to be willing to just go, okay, cool. This is what I need to do in order to push things forward to take it to where I want to take it. And you get better at getting your head around that it helps being surrounded by people who are also in that same headspace.


Brett Bartholomew  30:52  

You have to get frustrated beyond a point I found in that you brought up an excellent point about you did the free stuff. You did this. I remember one of the biggest things that I struggled with at first was, you know, I charge what I believed I was worth, and you could have some kickback from that. And that’s just inherent to any profession, right? People are always going to want to haggle. And I thought, or even when I’d face people that would be like, Well, why is this surprised? Why is that the price and like you said eventually, I just got tired of that I go listen to it. I did an undergraduate degree to unpaid internships, a grad assistantship where I made 10k a year, I was making like 35k a year for most of my profession as a strain coach. And I’ve invested a crap ton in myself to get this information, both through mistakes, Active Education, and all these other pieces. I am not going to apologize for what my time is worth, I am not going to sit here and quantify you know, like, this is what it is, you know, like the point the price is the price. And we’ve had a past episode about that. 


You know, let’s talk about this. Like, why does a community how we talked about the downsides of like common, like networking, why networking usually fails flat, right, there’s no reciprocity. I’d argue that community, if it’s not formed correctly, can do the same thing. There’s a lot of people that think they have community, but really, they have echo chambers, or they have a group of friends and our friends, we love them, but they don’t always give the best advice. You know, when you look at this, how does community help? And this the question, Jake, How does community help? Or how can it hurt? If you don’t take the necessary precautions? To find the right one? We’re gonna go you Dan, and then Ali, Jake, kick it off. 


Jacob Swart  32:20  

Yeah, I mean, man, this is something that I think is super important to just to distinguish, right, like, and it’s becoming this idea of a, having a healthy community. And also  like, it’s becoming very popular. And I think it’s becoming popular in a dangerous way, where people are just trying to surround themselves with echo chambers. And they’re dressing it up as, like self love, or self compassion, and all these things that are very important, you should right? but you need to have some frustration points, you need to have some friction, you need to have a little bit like think about your, some of the closest relationships in your world in your life. My I’ve got my wife, I’ve got some best buddies that have been long, like lifelong friends of mine. And,  like they’re brothers now at this point, right. And they get to that level, organically, not through always agreeing with me or like, you know, we’re not like, have the snow, rainbows and butterflies all the time, like, we have our arguments, and we have our friction points, and we have our disagreements. And I think that and that is super healthy with the relationship, and that’s in the personal side. And it’s just as important on the professional side, too. If you’re working on it in a community, or if you’re part of a group, and all they’re doing is being your cheerleader, like that’s not gonna help you professionally, that’s not going to elevate you to the love you’re trying to get to, that’s not going to advance your career, that’s not going to you’re not gonna get the scars needed to lead other people. Like, if all you’re doing is in an echo chamber, and it’s an it’s a soft one at that, or it’s one that just totally agree with you, it’s not going to be a healthy thing, you’re not going to get what you want, you’re just gonna make me feel a little bit better. While you’re on the call, you’re just gonna spin your wheels the rest of time. So it’s very important and you don’t have to be cancer. This is a healthy way to do that. Right? Like, it doesn’t have to be like this thing. We just get argumentative with somebody on a call all the time. Like that’s not what you want. Sometimes you do need somebody just to let you know, like, Hell yeah, man, you’re doing the right thing. It’s just like, you know, keep digging, right? Or like, lay that next brick or whatever, just to let you know, like you’re doing the right things. It’s a grind right now. But there is light at the end of the tunnel. And here’s why. Here’s where I can see from my bird’s eye view, looking out looking at right like, so it’s a healthy balance. You don’t want to just get beat up all the time, because that sucks, too. But you can’t just have somebody just loving on you all the time either. That’s not a healthy relationship from both personally and professionally. 


Brett Bartholomew  34:45  

Yeah, you definitely need that diversity. And I mean, that’s a big reason why, you know, we have the application we do, which is admittedly the application has kind of taken on an urban legend. S thing because we asked some pretty tough questions and to the uninitiated, it might look like well That’s exclusionary, you just told me, you don’t want to do something exclusionary? Why do you have an application, but it’s to Jake’s point, we want to have good diversity in the group. And within that application, we have some pretty basic questions too, such as What do you want? What’s the perfect kind of Think Tank look for you, what is the perfect board of directors look like for you. And if somebody does say, Hey, I just want people that can uplift me and support me and, that’s one thing, but you’ve got to have more than that, right? Because otherwise, it’s really easy, especially let’s say you’re with somebody that in a group of somebody that maybe isn’t as far along in that journey as you are, you might have an idea. And then it sounds really good, because it’s really advanced. But it might not be really good or sound that good to somebody that is also a little ahead of you, because maybe they’re like, Hey, I’ve tried that you’re on the right track, but this is what’s gonna fail with it. And so it helps to kind of, and it worked the opposite way. We had somebody in one time that was like, Oh, dude, you know, I want to get to my business to seven figures. And you know, this person was kind of worried about this, and that, and I remember having to tell them, like, Yo, listen, like you need people that are in different parts of their journey, because they’re reflective of the audience that you’re gonna help. No different than, you know, in our apprenticeship when we had somebody that had 20 years as a professional of what they did. And they weren’t listening to the perspective of a 20 year old that came. And it took a third party there that was in a completely different profession that was like, hey, that person is representative of your target population, you can’t just take away their perspective. So you’re spot on, you’ve got to have that diversity, healthy dissent. All those pieces. Dan, what about you?


Dan Forbes  36:31  

I think for me, time is so precious, I’ve been in a been in mentorship and sort of networking groups before, where it’s just, it’s basically you get in and it’s, it’s one route for everybody. Okay this is the roadmap that everybody’s gonna take, if it works for you, great. But if it doesn’t, then who knows? You know, but that doesn’t come up in the, you know, in the calls beforehand. So what I think is key is, if your time is as precious as mine is, it’s finding the right group, because that then allows you the security and the safety to go to go, Hey, this is where I’m at, this is what I need help with. And then the people around, you will see that you’re sharing it being open and being honest. And they’ll help. And that’s huge. Because that’s when you actually have a community, right, when everyone’s kind of rooting for each other and trying to help each other out. And touch back on what Ali was saying, with regards to you know, when is enough enough, you know, the great thing about it is, because this isn’t one of, these situations where you’ll jump on a call, you’ll see nothing, you know, you’ll just be there on a zoom call, like, you’ll actively be brought into discussions multiple times. And while you’re doing that, as you’re contributing, you realize, hang on, I’m pretty good at some of this stuff. And then you will also identify this is maybe where I have some holes as well. So you get a just get value across the board.


Brett Bartholomew  37:57  

And these concepts shouldn’t really be foreign to people right before like, even though the term mastermind might be distasteful, right? There’s rotary clubs, and damn near every city, we’re local business owners get together. There’s things like Toastmasters, where people like, like, it’s just like every community at whether it’s the government level, whether it’s like a local level, whatever, there’s millions of examples of this and you want diversity, why would I join a rotary my brother owns a restaurant, right? It’s breakfast restaurant, in that Rotary Club. It’s not all restaurant owners, but it’s other people that provide a valuable service to other people, you know, whatever that their delivery is, and like, you need that perspective as well. And you need that support. So yeah, Ben there, here we go. Or this is another way to look at it. Ali, you’re up?


Ali Kershner  38:41  

Yeah, I’ll just add on to that point, right. Like, for me, I got to be in a room with conversations that I’ve never even experienced before. Like, I was somebody who was just a coach, I had not experienced much of the business world yet. And so getting to even just listen to people converse about how to build an LLC, or what does it cost to set this up? Or how do I buy I get a lawyer to help me with a contract? These are questions and conversations I really wouldn’t have been privy to, until I had been there and done that. And so it’s almost like it’s a proxy for experience in a way, right? It’s like an initial exposure to some of these questions that I’ve never even thought of asking prior to this experience. And, you know, I’m just as guilty as the next person, like, I have a certain person my life they’ll go to for specific questions because it’s confirmation bias. So like, if I want, you know, a loving, very sympathetic ear, I’ll go to my dad, if I want somebody to tell it to me straight, I’ll go to my mom. If I want somebody to be asked with about the coaching profession, I’m going to Mali, my friend, you know, like, I go to these people purposely because I know their responses I’m gonna get and so I really need I really need a community that’s going to push me to stay open minded and curious because that’s a huge value of mine. And it allows me to uphold that value, essentially in my life. I have because I’m now getting pushed to think about things from different ways engage in lateral thinking. And in ways I wouldn’t necessarily do in my day to day because it’s uncomfortable.


Brett Bartholomew  40:10  

Well, and you touched on something there, especially the lawyer piece, and I’ll get to this in a second. But it leads me to my next question, what does accountability look like? Because there’s this phrase, and I love it. You know, the scariest thing you can do to somebody is give them what they say they want, right? Whether that’s autonomy, whether that’s accountability, whether that’s money, or power, or whatever the scariest thing you can do to somebody is give them what they say they want. Because most people really don’t want the things that come with that. And I learned that too, because after I establish on my end, I need that man, I’d like a community of kind of misfit toys trying to figure this out experience, you know, and and people that are relatable, and people that are respectful and private. Eventually, I had to also figure out like, what do I charge for this, because I knew that it was my time, just like I had paid for coaches in the past, I had paid. I had a lawyer when I had to figure out and I was in a position where conscious coaching, we were going to give legal rights away to a publisher in Germany, in China, I had to deal with contracts, we had to deal with trademark agreements. That one time I remember, it was the most money I’d ever paid for advice. It was $4,500 for a trademark attorney that basically wasted my time, and did me no good. So I remember, you know, early days when I was talking to a coalition leader at one point, they’re like, God, you know, what’s the investment? And I told him what it was at a point in time, and they’re like, Well, I don’t know. And meanwhile, they were trying to talk to me about how they had this concept they wanted to trademark. And I had to say, Do you know what you’re gonna pay for, an attorney to help you with this. And you know what that process is like, or even a book proposal, right? Like to get my next book published, I have to write it like a 12,000 page proposal, I had to pay an editor for that. And there’s some people that don’t even know you have to do those things. And so I started feeling less bad about like, I’m not going to feel angry about what I charge because one, you need accountability, you need skin in the game. And yes, that is not just your time, your energy and your effort, that is going to be money. And I’m not saying like, alright, you don’t have to pay that, but you’re gonna pay it at some level on some way, you’re gonna pay it through your mistakes. reactively. And we all know an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, or you can invest on something proactively. 


And the problem is, there’s a lot of people that think that is just like a sales pitch. But once you get deep in the game enough, you realize no, no, that’s not like if you literally, if you think hiring a professional is expensive. Try hiring an amateur, see what that does. But Ali, this is directed at you, you know, what did accountability look like when you made this decision? Because like you said, money is something you had to figure out like, was that the only piece? Or where can you explain a little bit more where you felt a little bit of nervousness around that? Or how you learn to reframe it and understand it as an investment rather than a cost?


Ali Kershner  42:47  

Yeah, sure. I mean, so unlike maybe some of the other people on this call, I have all these hypothetical expenses coming up, right? Like, I’m looking at buying a house, I’m looking at having kids one day, I’m looking at getting married, I’m looking at like, Look, I need a new car soon, well, you have the Ford Fusion is on its last leg. In fact, I drive a bike or I ride a bike most often just to avoid any casualties with that car. But anyway, you know, for me, it’s less of a, it was always less of a time thing. I was like, again, I knew I could make the time for me, it was the money. It was truly like, How can I justify this to myself, and my partner, and really, like, I guess the accountability to me looked like spending money on this because one I knew it was gonna force me to show up. And when I spend money on something, I go all in because I’m so scared of spending money and then not soaking it dry for what it’s worth, right. So I needed to be able to see the ROI. 


And I think the second that I heard that, you know, like you said, it not spending the money on this, it’s going to come back to later on in some other way. Because you missed out on an opportunity. Or you didn’t build the website the right way, and then you ended up having to pay somebody double that to fix it. Or, you know, it’s like the things you pick up on these calls save you money, like, I would not have known how to build a website, I would not have known what to charge for my time. I mean, I that’s the biggest thing. I was missing out on money because I was charging too little. Right. So even in that it comes around and it pays for itself. Threefold fourfold, but it’s really hard to see that on the onset when you haven’t been in a group like this before. And you haven’t seen the outcomes that are possible. And it really came down to just trusting myself and that’s the hardest thing to admit is like do you trust yourself to make what this investment is worth it?


Brett Bartholomew  44:45  

Quick break in the action guys. Make sure that you go to If you haven’t already, that’s especially if you’re somebody that values being around a great community of people, people that are going to test you The people that are going to support you people that are going to be there for you. What we’re talking about here is a group of individuals that I wish I could have been around when I first started on my own, there’s a million reasons to say no to certain things that make you uncomfortable in life. But the bottom line is, you do not get time wasted back. So if you can be around individuals that give you a ton of perspective, that will hear you out, and that will coach you. Because let’s face the facts, everybody needs a coach, you’re gonna that’s just a force multiplier to everything you do. I only open up this program twice a year, and this is the last time it will be open in all of 2022. So go to to learn more.


Ali Kershner  45:46  

It really came down to just trusting myself. And that’s the hardest thing to admit is like, do you trust yourself to make what this investment is worth it?


Brett Bartholomew  45:55  

Yeah, well, and I think, you know, a lot of people just don’t work through that math. And I remember when I was trying to, and Dan will go to you next when I was working through hiring a coach for the first time for something I did, and I remember the cost of and then I did the math, I thought I what I went to an event that year, like a workshop to keep my certification, right, then I’m doing the calculations, as I did this, that was 550 for the registration, then it was another 530 for the flight. So we’re at 1080 Right now, then I had to pay for two nights Hotel, which was 130 apiece, you know, I’ll take out taxes. So that’s plus 60. So then I looked at, I’m already at 1340, which to me was like the same as $1,500. And then so I looked at what this coach to get on a couple calls with them was gonna like costs versus what I did. And I remember you know what I did, when I went to that, that conference, I went and took notes, sad, the room first row, blah, blah, blah, heard 15 different speakers go. But at the end of the day, like there was nothing that went as deep and was individualized or, like, I didn’t get a turn to talk, right? You’re just an absorption, you’re just absorbing, you’re absorbing. And that just goes back to the problem with just doing books, or even podcasts or whatever. Like at some point, it can’t be absorption, it has to be expression. 


That’s why I think a lot of people just took the time to kind of do the math, they’d find, like, yeah, that cost is a little bit different. Not to mention the fact that I mean, this is embarrassing, because my dad’s a financial advisor, it took me a couple of years to realize, oh, shit, some of this is tax deductible. You know, like some of this is and then that was an easy thing that like when people were like, hey, I want to do the coalition. Blank, blank, blank, totally get it. By the way, did you know it’s tax deductible, talk to your CPA and do it and then people realize, I’m gonna give this money away at the end of the year anyway, like, I can either do it proactively to something that improves me or you just give it to Uncle Sam. So that was something that helped me have a much healthier attitude towards money as well, like, do I want to give it to the government? I already do enough of that, you know, and so I might as well get back to myself, 


Dan, you talked to me about what accountability looks like to you? Because obviously, like you said, it’s time away from your family. You have a son with unique needs. You know, you can you can touch on the money piece if you want. It’s all  it’s your canvas.


Dan Forbes  48:05  

Yeah, so I, I think touching on the money piece, I think, as a coach, I’ve coached people friends for free. And how to everyone else listening? Who is a coach and done the same thing? How did that go? It never goes well, it never goes well, with all the best intention, they don’t follow through because it doesn’t mean anything, there’s no cost to them not doing anything, you know, it’s gonna stay a little bit, it should stay a little bit in order to because it makes you want to do it because you don’t want you’re gonna waste that. And in terms of trying to figure it out, and accountability, instead like to go back what I said earlier, having someone listen to me having someone help me, not just tell me what to do that took me in a direction I didn’t want to go help me figure out what I wanted to do, what that looked like, what the roadmap was, and then key held me accountable to it. So it wasn’t like okay, cool. Last call. You said you’re gonna do this. Were you out with it? Because I’m busy. And this stuff can easily just get pushed down the priority list. So have no way I was gonna jump on that formula. I don’t want to be the ends being like, yeah, I didn’t do it. Like, it forced you to follow through on it, you know, and there’s a cost to everything. Like, I built my own websites, I’ve done these things to save money. The hours it took me watching YouTube reading manuals, chiefs, like doing all this stuff, trying to figure this stuff out. Why didn’t I just pay someone it would have been so much cheaper to abroad, they would have done a better job to to just brought in an expert. Like, you can do the 10,000 hours, whatever you however you want to phrase it or don’t find someone who’s already doing what you want to do. gone through a similar process and go speak to them and let them help you figure it out. It just is such a time saver.


Brett Bartholomew  49:57  

Yeah, I mean, there’s a reason they say it takes a village right And you’re spot on about you’ve coached people for free the amount of people that have called and said, I want to write a book. And somebody said the other day, they’re like, Yeah, I know how much you are. Do you have an editor? And they’re like, yeah, go how much you pay him. And he was $500. I’m like, Oh, no way, like, $500, edit your entire book, I’m like, coach, remember, this thing’s gonna live forever. It’ll outlive you. I’ll live there. And I’ve had this same conversation with his coach a couple of times. And then, you know, this doesn’t say much about me as a person, perhaps. But it goes hand in hand with I’ve done enough for free over my career. A selfish reason I started it too, is I started to get a bit of resentment for people that just weren’t respectful of my time. You know, there were people that wanted my advice, but they weren’t respectful of my time, which is why I post all the time and say, givers have to set limits, because takers rarely do. So that was another reason I felt like even accountability. On my end, I’m gonna direct this a little different. Before we go to Jake, because we’re talking about accountability on the end of anybody that joins group, not talking to those people that actually have a group like the coalition themselves, right? 


Like, you know, that you reserve the right to charge for your time, because you’re giving away information that maybe took you 10 years or $10,000, you know, to be able to get yourself and then not only that, you, you do have to create a little bit of a barrier, you know, like when there’s people I have a simple rule, and it depends on the relationship. But if somebody has called me for advice two to three times, eventually, I’m just going to be like, hey, and again, it depends on the relationship, because there’s some relationships, I have a very big reciprocity based thing too, right? Like they’ve introduced me to some people we help each other with our services and our businesses. But after a while, I’m just like, and this happened just recently, somebody was like, ah, you know, I know you guys are start your next round in July, I really want to be a part of it. And he’s done this, like two years now. But then he hits me with like, 10 questions. And I eventually said, I’ll make up the name. I just said, Anderson, listen, I really appreciate you. But I have to reserve some of this time for people that are paying clients, you know, and this goes back to me saying, like, I can’t go to a doctor and be like, Hey, man, if you’re in it for the right reasons, you’d give me this appointment for free or do a restaurant or do a dentist. So I just want to encourage other people that have groups of their own. Remember what accountability on your end looks like, set those boundaries and do not let people use you. Or utilize the ultimate kryptonite against any coach and leader which is guilt. They will use guilt, they will badmouth you, they will say, Hey, I just thought, whatever, can I just pick your brain? That shit is anathema. Cut that off and set a boundary, Jake, you’re up.


Jacob Swart  52:28  

I mean, like, there’s so many different ways that I can take like this conversation around this idea of like accountability or setting boundaries, and a light hearted way, I love what Dan was talking about with the cost of building his website, I just had this conversation with my dad evolving. So real quick story here. Like my dad, he’s a big car nut. He has this, he just built this, they just built this new house with this pole barn. And he wanted to build a car lift in there. And this is a massive car lift that’s gonna lift vehicles like seven feet up in the air. And, it’s a very expensive lift. And instead of spending like the $500, to have a pro come and install it. This is such a big Western thought process. He’s like, Yeah, I’ll just do it myself. I was like, that sounds like a bad idea that I wouldn’t do that. 


And instead of so he tried to do it himself. And instead of like, you know, having a professional copy, come out and do it like three hours. It took him three days, he went and borrowed a buddy’s, like hammer drill, which he then broke, so then had to buy a new hammer drill, which cost him Damn your $500. Anyway. And so now he’s like, I don’t know, a net gain of like, he saved himself 200 bucks. But he lost three hours, two or three days of his life and all the frustration that’s part of that a web. I was I was a had a nice, I told you so moment, he was not happy about it. But man, I think that accountability is a lot of things. One of the biggest thing is kind of what Dan was talking about, though, with, when you know, you have to respond to somebody like you’ve put it out there, right? Like you said, Alright, by the next call, I’m going to accomplish x, it’s a really embarrassing thing to have to get on a call, look at that person in the eye. And all the other people that are on the call is out of time. But there’s more than just one other person on there. Right? And I have to tell them like, Nope, didn’t do that. And then find some BS excuse on why you didn’t do it. Right? Like, when really you just didn’t make it a priority, or you didn’t want it bad enough, or whatever the case may be. Sometimes there’s legitimate excuses. Sure, right. But for the most part that like that person that you have to look in the eye and say no, I didn’t do what I was supposed to do. Or I didn’t do what I said I was going to do you put it out there in the universe. You told somebody told a group of people and you didn’t do it, man, that’s a huge type of accountability that like the person doesn’t even have to say anything, right? Like they don’t have to give you any feedback. They just gotta be there for you to tell them. No, you didn’t do anything. Like, sir, go ahead.


Brett Bartholomew  54:53  

No, no, you’re you’re spot on. Keep going.


Jacob Swart  54:55  

Yeah, and then like on the money side of things, like I think it’s like I’m like what Ali was talking about just a build off of what she said, like, you know, kind of give an example my dad or like, you know, with my own example, like, we bought a house and like I was, you know, I had no idea what I was doing, I bought a house and we’ve had to spend like, damn near all of our money to buy this house, right? And then like, I was trying to like, figure out what it felt like everybody wanted their hands in my pockets, right? Or their hands in my pocket and knew for the home inspection, they like, Oh, do you want to do the add on service when they look in your crawlspace? I was like, what is that I don’t remember what it cost was the moral of story was I had to I should have done any homeowner would tell you yet Jake do that. 


Brett Bartholomew  55:35  

They want their they want their hands in your pocket as they’re navigating your crawlspace This is getting into a whole nother category.


Jacob Swart  55:41  

A you know, like it talks about accountability, right? Like, but like, anyway, had a pipe that was like back or like, you know, it was angled, you know, grabby like shit falls downstream, right. So like, it was not at that right angle, and then our shower all backed up. And I just spent like $2,500 but I just felt like all my money on this house and like, so all that to say we could give examples all day long. If it’s if it’s actually spending money on something like it is so much more powerful to spend money in a preventative measure and to be in a place where you can take your urges. How have somebody uncover what your blind spots are? Because that’s so important. Like you don’t even know like what Dan was talking about a couple questions ago were like, or No, I think it was, I can’t remember his Dan or Ali, I think it was Dan, where they were talking about, I like talking through it helping somebody else solve problems, you’ve realized what you’re actually pretty good at, right? Or what you actually kind of suck at or what you’d be or what you’re actually kind of passionate about, like, all those things are important. So it’s not just the information that you get from being a part of the group, but you get information from actually like participating in the group, which is a huge piece of what we want. It’s a requirement for people to be a part of this. So like, that’s another piece of accountabilities, you got to bring your A game to what you’re doing when you come to the group, or to the time that you spend when you’re in this when you’re in these calls. Or we’re just a part of this coalition. Because if you don’t like you’re letting other people down and up, and like, I’m a huge team sport guy over an individual’s poor guy, because for whatever reason, I know, I’m gonna give my all I’m gonna find another level when I know there’s somebody else depending on me. So like brother that’s in sport, rather than wife like a healer in life, a huge motivator for me is my wife, my future child coming in, you know, like my family, like that’s to know that there’s other people that who rely on me, my input, my effort, my skill, my desires, like that should motivate you. And that should hold you accountable more than just about anything. At least it does for me, there’s other motivators, but you get all of that in this group is what I’m trying to say. Like, there’s so many different ways that we make sure that you’re accountable towards your goals and your desires and your ambitions, what you want. When


Brett Bartholomew  57:44  

you think about this, some of the things you mentioned, you know, commitment, it’s just like commitment isn’t convenient. And it shouldn’t be right. Like we need to struggle, we need to strive for something. That’s why everybody needs a coach. And that’s where I looked at one myself at one point in time and thought, am I a hypocrite? I always say everybody needs a coach. Yeah, at one point in my life, I haven’t paid for one, you know, and that change? And then I think, to your point, like you said, it can be embarrassing, when, like, if you don’t have a deadline on something I love when people say dreams or goals without a deadline. But I think sometimes people misinterpret let’s say, Jake, you’re in the group. And you know, you say, Hey, by next week, I really need to have blank done. Or, or better yet, let’s say somebody challenges you to have something done because maybe you procrastinated a bit which is natural. It doesn’t mean the next week you have to have it like oh my god the 100% best product best version of it. It just means dude come with a minimally viable product come with a scribbling like, I don’t know if anybody remembers that old YouTube video a leprechaun in the hood, where they did the they go, this amateur sketch shows what I witnesses say are the leprechaun, I would rather have an amateur sketch wireframe of what you’re thinking about doing the nothing. And that’s something that people don’t miss out on. 


And I think the other thing is, there’s somebody talking about a brand builder, and the quote is people buy products, not just for what they do, but for what they mean meaning like, it’s not the base function of something, but like the role it plays in their life. And I think about there are people that will spend 1000s of dollars on some certification, that is one part of their life, you know, let’s say and this isn’t going out these people, so don’t get up in arms if you’ve done this, right. But let’s say somebody spent like four grand on a kettlebell certification. Great. That is one area of your life. But then if you whine about, you know, let’s say I’m making up a number 7500, for something that can apply to many areas of your life, and it can also help you make more money, save you time, save you ever. It’s like, what are you really doing and then you realize, oh, but people don’t always buy things for rational reasons. There’s, there’s hedonic reasons why they do it, right. It’s the short term kind of need that’s emotion based. And then there’s what’s called fancy word alert, you dimonic, which is really about like self realization. And that for me, is what I’ll spend money on. All day, it’s the same reason why I’ll spend money on experiences over things. Because experiences grow you as a person. You know, my wife and I just got back from a trip to Greece, there was an obscene amount of money and cash and damn near every airline mile I had accrued from 2012 to 2016. But I will never look at that as regret, because that was nine days that were absolutely irreplaceable. And you know, what, to your point earlier, Dan, which was genius. Let me think out of phrases, because I can get too heated about it. Thank God, I started to look at myself and my services as a business, because otherwise I wouldn’t have had the money, because I wouldn’t have had the self respect to be able to pay for that trip, you know, and so it just comes down, like, what are you valuing? Or at least take stock, it’s okay to like things, I buy things. I just bought a martial speaker, but then just take stock and say, Alright, the last 400-400-5000 $10,000, I’ve spent, how many of them were things or things in a certain category? How many of them were experiences coaching or things in another category? audit that see if there’s an asymmetry, it’s no different than somebody’s like, Oh, man. Hey, Brett, I want to take your course. But I just want to finish reading these 30 books on periodization. Great, read your books, I’m not going to talk you into that. But at what point, you know, is that enough? And at what point? Are you really hiding from something maybe you feel like you’re not ready, open forum on any of that, and then we’re gonna move to a new point. Anybody want to touch on that?


Dan Forbes  58:54  

So I think when you go through a lot of this stuff, as you’re going through business, whatever, whatever the process is, at some point, you will come to a to a head and realize this is on me, I have to do this. And that whole transition into viewing things as a business and having to respect your own time, having to charge for your services, that will become easy, because you realize, hey, if I don’t do these things, nobody else will do them. Yeah, that’s what I told him that


Brett Bartholomew  1:01:57  

beautiful Ali, did you have some? And then we’ll go to you, Jake.


Ali Kershner  1:02:02  

Yeah, no, I think we’ve done a great job of kind of talking about, you know, the reasons we join groups and the excuses that we commonly make to not invest in ourselves. And yeah, I don’t I don’t have anything else New to add.


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:14  

Perfect. Jake, before we move on any touch points.


Jacob Swart  1:02:17  

Yeah, just one quick little quote that was given to me by somebody that I really respect, or just earlier this week, you know, shared with me, it just really hit home. He said, You know, we don’t tell ourselves, I’m never going to write my symphony, right? Instead, we say I’m gonna write my symphony. I’m just gonna get started tomorrow. Right? So that that kind of hits exactly what we’re talking about here. So don’t wait. Don’t put off till tomorrow to write your symphony and get started on that now. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:40  

Yep. Wonderful example right now inside glimpse, right, we’d like Ali said, we’ve talked about some of the reasons excuses part of our growth journeys. You know, another question we get asked a lot is right, well, what does this look like, and guys, you know what, feel free. If you have your own thing, just steal this structure, all you want, because I say this with tongue in cheek, but absolute sincerity, you ain’t gonna do it like us. And if you’re listening, and you eventually want to start your own group, you don’t have to worry about these things. Because somebody’s not going to do it like you. And we’re always evolving anyway. So also, if you’re listening to this in 2025, know that this may be a little bit different. But when we run these groups, and then we’re going to give you a workshop example of it, like somebody on this call is literally going to share a real problem, and we’re gonna go through it. I knew, all right, what would I want as a consumer, I want to build something that I would want to do everything that I built with art of coaching, or that we built collectively now that we’ve got a team and I’m not just some weird loner, is something we wish we had at some point in our life. So I knew all right, if I joined a group, I wouldn’t want to just do as some of the folks on this call have talked about, where I’m just like listening all the time, or it’s the same thing every week, I would want something like alright, we have some that are group coaching sessions. So I might say, Hey, guys, I’m having a problem. We have a live workshop, I need to find a way I need to discern whether or not we should do streaming, here’s the cost. Here’s what I’m thinking about. What do you think, right? So anything that might need problem solving, accountability, sharing strategies, that’s one thing that we can do. Another thing we do is like monthly hot seats, so we try to give everybody a chance to talk every week but periodically after a couple of months in because the coalition as it stands now is a six month program. What we try to do is say Alright, after a couple of months in  hey Jake and Ali, you got the hot seat next call and then we give it to somebody else or we might have three people go in they get like 15 minutes where normally they might get five to 10 minutes or something like that. We also have accountability partners because I knew it’s really easy for people to hide in between it’s another thing when you’re like laying on the couch and you’re halfway to your goal or whatever you want to accomplish that week. And but you’re kind of hitting this low like I am right now with some of my projects and then oh shit Jake’s calling you know and you hate it but you love it because you know Jake’s can be like, in Jake’s typical phrase. Hey, man, just checking in like you got this thing done. What can I do to help? So accountability partners are huge. And then guess masterclasses? 


I think of one One friend of mine, just a tremendous individual, Scott Livingston, he came in and you know, Scott is very open. He’s got a tremendous career. And and he talks about Listen, I’ve made a lot of mistakes. I’ve been married three times I’ve been a pusher. I’ve been a polar, but Scott will talk to us about something he’s done, or we might bring somebody else. And and sometimes we bring, you know, I know my friend  Don Saladino has brought in Blake Lively, you just bring people again, you want a lot of different folks. And then also, you know, just letting other people teach, right? Like that’s another hallmark of a great community. It’s not the Jake show the Brett show the Ali show the dance show, somebody else might be able to teach some things. And so having those structures. And so you know, when we look at that, I want to open it to you guys. And I think we talked about before the show a little bit, 


but Dan or Jake, I’ll let you guys fight over it. Let’s give them some insight on what it really would look like we’re in a coalition call right now, one of you share a problem you might have, and let’s work it over. So this is real time, guys. We’re going to change names and certain things to protect privacy. But this is example of what you might really see. Jake or Dan, who’s got the biggest problem. Cool, Dan, you’re up. Dan, you’re muted. This is a rookie move.


Dan Forbes  1:06:14  

That was Rookie. Wow. So obviously, I was destined to be like a hair model. And then I hit 21. I have no hair. That was a problem. So I had to change career paths.


Brett Bartholomew  1:06:26  

Is there a generic coaching or Jada Pinkett joke in there right now? Can we do like the Wilson method? You’re bald? Like let’s say my eyeball.


Dan Forbes  1:06:33  

Yeah, I have more hair on my shoulders then in my head right now. So. So now I’m coaching. And my whole thing is, I’m good with people. I’m good with the person sit in front of me. That’s my USP, I’ve asked my clients, hey, what would you how would you refer me? I need to take this online, I need to scale it. I don’t want to lose that. I don’t want to just to become a this is just going to be somebody who just churn through the numbers. It needs to be better than that. And I’m just not going to have to do that.


Brett Bartholomew  1:07:07  

So if this was real time, right, I would tell you, I’m not clear on the ask. I’d say so what is the main problem? What are you wanting advice or a little bit like external thoughts on?


Dan Forbes  1:07:20  

So identifying who it is I need to work with because that, again, I mentioned before, I’ve been in various groups and dialing a niche. Well, here’s my problem in 20 years, I don’t have a niche. Because when I first started, the Internet was still in its infancy. It was still dialer. And you had to work with whoever came through the door. So that could have been a 76 year old woman who just had a hip replaced, or it could have been a 25 year old guy, do they get jacked up anything? And all in between? So I don’t have an issue. I work with people. That’s the end of it. Yeah, that’s very I really struggle with


Jacob Swart  1:07:55  

I would challenge you a little bit more on that. Dan, like, if you haven’t niche man, like, Who is your avatar? Like, who is the perfect person? So if you had to take if tomorrow, your entire client list was gone? Gone? Just out of there. You had no more clients, except for one. Who’s that client? 


Dan Forbes  1:08:18  



Jacob Swart  1:08:19  

Describe bill to me, what’s the about


Dan Forbes  1:08:22  

Bill is? How old is Bill? Late 40s. business guy? He could be kids. He’s very successful. He’s actually he’s very successful. What is a hard time doing is being successful at staying healthy and staying fit? Yeah, those are the two A’s you will struggle with. 


Jacob Swart  1:08:40  

So middle age. Dad, who is like an executive athlete will say like, big, successful professional, who needs to take care of himself, but doesn’t know how to how to fit that into his day. Right?


Dan Forbes  1:08:56  

Yeah. Do we? Do we just change Brett’s name for Bill? I don’t know.


Jacob Swart  1:09:01  

I mean, there’s your niche. Right? Like, I mean, that that’s unique. If that’s like your person that like if everyone else was gone, right? And that’s you’d want to work with? Can you work with that? And like what you’re trying to expand without diluting via your online practice or your whatever you’re trying to grow?


Dan Forbes  1:09:15  

Yeah, I could, I could do that. No problem.


Ali Kershner  1:09:18  

So here’s my question. So now that we’ve sort of identified like an ideal client avatar, right, like, one I want to know, what have you tried so far in terms of attracting clients or customers to you? Like, what does that process look like up till now? And using sort of this new avatar or maybe that’s not the person that you really ideally want to target? What What are strategies that you can envision using and like maybe we can help you with those.


Dan Forbes  1:09:45  

So in the past, I’ve tried to grow community I guess, via social media and things but I never really got any traction. I’ve always struggled with that. I tried launching something a few years back, aim So I guess at this kind of Avatar, it will had a low price point. And it just never got going. It was the program itself was solid enough. But one thing I discovered was that avatar doesn’t like to tell other people, like they’d like to, like, flee find it, they go, my secret mine. So it real problem trying to grow it. And in all honesty, the price point was terrible it was way too low. It was never it was never gonna grow into what it needed to be


Ali Kershner  1:10:34  

Yeah, yeah, no, I was just gonna I just have to follow up questions on that one. Do you have a website? Or I guess at this point, did you have a website and a newsletter? And to like, where are people have that avatar type hanging out? Like, what do they consume? Because my perception is that that person is probably not on social media all the time, because they’re either busy, or they’re too old. So I’m no offense. But I’m just wondering, like, have you done the market research and interviewed enough of that kind of person to understand where they’re hanging out where they get their information and where they look for things that they would be interested in? Investing in?


Dan Forbes  1:11:09  

Yes, I have a website. No, I didn’t have a newsletter. I guess at the time, when I first tried this, they were hanging out still on Facebook. But that’s changed, they’re gone. So where do they hang out now?


Jacob Swart  1:11:25  

Good question. Golf courses, man, for sure. Well, yeah,


Brett Bartholomew  1:11:30  

Ali, do you have a second follow up? Question?


Ali Kershner  1:11:32  

I was just gonna say that. I mean, my first, you know, just simple piece of advice would be to, to cold call 15 of them find out where they’re hanging out, right? Maybe go to the golf course. That’s a great idea, Jake. And I would have like a simple like, five question, you know, little mental survey to ask, and just, you know, these are my ideal clients, and maybe they’re not gonna sign up with me. But I want to know, what they’re reading what they’re ingesting, what the price point is that they would pay for a service like this. And I would just start doing good old fashioned market research.


Brett Bartholomew  1:12:04  

Well, and to add on to that, right. And then this is an example of taking different approaches is, and this is something that we talked about at our Brand Builder, Builder, if you’re interested, when you you have to look at different forms of media, right, so you talked about what are called embassies. And this has to do with like social platforms, right? Like you mentioned, hey, they don’t hang out on Facebook anymore. When you think of embassies, it’s Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, it’s traditional social media. But there’s other ways like for people to get the word out, right, we’re gonna go global here, and then I’ll explain what it means like deeper. You know, there’s also paid media, like we’ve learned art of coaching, we’ve kind of reached peak organic growth for now. So we’ve got to go to not just embassies, we’ve got to look at advertising. We’ve got to do and we’ve done this in the past, we’ve done Facebook ads, but now we experiment with Google ads. You know, I’ll use some Amazon stuff, anything like that. Some people will use paid endorsements, right? Or some people, you know, for a long time, what worked really well, I would say in the case of conscious coaching, for sure, what’s called earned media. These were situations where we had user generated content, people would buy the book, take pictures of the book and put it up, right. But my point is, is like so we had one person in the coalition, that same thing, like, hey, they’re not on social media anymore. I’m having trouble. While we’re like, Well, what about QR, what about Reddit, because they had a great idea. They wanted to help fathers, specifically, who had gone through and I think it was like young men who had been divorced early, and just the struggles with divorce, both financial, the emotional, all these things. And they were trying to figure out what are they struggle with, because they want to make sure like, hey, you know, I have an idea of what I struggled with, but I want to look at my blind spots. So we suggested we’ll go into Reddit, go into QR, do what’s called social listening, see what else is out there? Because other people have faced this problem, too. And so then he realized, yeah, like, you know what, I can be a subject matter expert within a Reddit thread, a QR thread. And then he started to build you know, more more following through there. Some people guys, me, it doesn’t even need to be computer related. You, you just have to find where you are an expert and where your people hang out, whether it’s a coffee shop, a bowling alley, anything like that. 


Another piece is sometimes people look a little bit too local. So we hear niche a lot and we did this on a clarity webinar. It’s completely free if you guys want an additional resource but we talked about niche or not. So when we think about a niche, right there’s this game we play a brand builder called I can’t do Arnold very well, who is your daddy? And what does he do? Most people have no idea to just say, Hey, I’m Brett. I help people do blank. Hey, I’m Suzy I help people do blank. So sometimes we have trouble finding our people because we’re not very clear. And then you know, Jake talked about discovering avatar. Well think about it this way to like, you can also think well who are you not for? What do you not do right the via negativa approach, what kind of people do not Well, like I can tell you very clearly at art of coaching, we do not we are not trying to attract people who are entitled who want to put in very little effort to anything. Want things cheap, easy and fast. don’t want to be vulnerable and putting real problems out there. Like we are a leadership development company that specializes in the messy realities of leadership in life. That is what we do. And so Dan, if you were to think about that, like, from a niche map perspective, who are you not for? Who do you not want to serve? What kind of people do you want to avoid? What Kind Of Products Do you not want to put out there, if you can address just any any of those.


Dan Forbes  1:15:26  

I don’t want to put out a cookie cutter style program that just one size fits all I want to put out for anyone who wants hacks, that would drive me crazy hacks, I can show you how the matrix works, I can show you the piece of the puzzle, I can show you how they go together, but you have to do the work. So if you don’t want to do that, then we won’t be able towork.


Brett Bartholomew  1:15:50  

Okay, so then what I’d say there is now we got to get really specific about competitive advantage. And this goes into any of you listening that have taken business courses, you would know this as Porter’s generic strategies. Another thing we talked about it brandbuilders Soft plug. So you know, people can exist in the same market like this is where I’m saying you don’t even really have to niche, you just have to have some form of differentiation. So you know, you might have differentiation in terms of your cost or you lower price or you higher price, you might have it in terms of your offering, think of Walmart, everything from lunch meat to lawn mowers you can get at Walmart, very different than what you can get like an all the oral Whole Foods, then you could have, you know, deep differentiation like a Tesla, they only sell electric cars, right? And we’re not going to go through all of them here. Again, it’s in the clarity webinar I mentioned earlier, but you think about this. 


And so a really bad example that I use and then I’m gonna turn it back to Dan is and this is just dad humor. So I’m sorry for anybody that doesn’t get it. But we have a slide in Brand Builder where I’m like, cuz some people say but man, there’s so much competition. I say, All right. Well, let’s look at horror movies. You have people like Michael Myers, Freddy Krueger, Jason Vorhees, Leatherface, and Chucky. All of them kill people, but they have differentiation and how they do it. You know, Michael Myers, not supernatural, Freddy Krueger supernatural. Freddy Krueger only kills people when they’re in their sleep. Michael Myers only gets people in Haddonfield, Illinois. Shit Jason went to space and will kill people at Crystal Lake as well. So he’s got broad differentiation there and the amount of people that he mercs that he got some people that are just Herculean Leatherface. That’s a big mofo. So as Michael Myers, Chucky, I mean, he’s at Jake shins. So Chuck, he’s got to get a lot more creative. There’s even differentiation and their weapons, some use a knife, some use a chainsaw somewhere people’s faces, it gets really weird. But people tend to overlook the obvious is my point, you can be in a market with a lot of competition, but you can still find a gap. And so that, like when you say you don’t want to do cookie cutter, that’s a broad gap. Dan, give me a very specific, like, example of what not cookie cutter looks like, if I’m your client right now. Okay, what is my experience gonna be like with you that it’s not going to be like with somebody else that does cookie cutter, I imagine. I’m like, a 10 year old, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Explain it to me. 


Dan Forbes  1:16:39  

Okay, so we’re going to chat. And I’m going to listen, and I’m going to ask you a what this process looks like, needs to look like for you, what have you done in the past, what hasn’t worked, we’re gonna identify what the bottlenecks are. And then your program, and because it’s not just his sets and reps, this is a coach, you know, I like to coach. So it’s going to be lifestyle, habit based change. So  we’re going to take you through and we’re going to focus on those bottlenecks, you’re still going to get the sets and reps, you still gonna get the nutrition, you’re gonna get all those things, but it’s going to be tailored around your pain points, what are the things that you really struggle with? Let’s now look at focusing on and crack those so that you can succeed, and then you never have to think about this stuff ever again. Alright, so


Brett Bartholomew  1:18:52  

let’s say we’re role playing a little bit. All right? Well, I’ll tell you, what’s up. My pain points are I’m overscheduled. I’m in a season of life right now where, you know, like, I have money to spend, and I know you’re worth it, Dan, but I have to be mindful, we might have a second kid soon. You know, the market is, you know, isn’t doing so well. I’m playing a role here, although those things are true. And I think the thing man is I’m pretty bright in the past, because when I had done coaching in the past, inevitably, I have to download some bullshit app. It’s not intuitive. One, I don’t even like taking my phone or an iPad to the gym or anything like that. And so what’s the delivery mechanism here? How is that different? Because as silly as that sounds, that is something that drives me nuts when I’m working out. I gotta get it done quick. I can always pull up my phone every five seconds. So what does that part of it look like?


Dan Forbes  1:19:38  

So what does that look like for you? Tell what’s worked for you in the past that you really enjoyed.


Brett Bartholomew  1:19:42  

I mean, I’m pretty antiquated. So for example, let’s say, you know, some of the time they’d be like use an app, what I’d really do is I’d pull the program up on my phone, screenshot it, print it and tape it on my wall. And that way, I could go over there and then, you know, I’d fill out my weights maybe at the end of the week, you know, because I just like otherwise it just takes too much time at the end. Have a day. I am somebody who is just overwhelmed and emotionally overloaded. The more I have to think about something, the less I’m going to do it. So I will pay you a high price as long as you can make this thing, just intuitive and a seamless part of my life. I don’t want to be bogged down by technology, and overly technical bullshit.


Dan Forbes  1:20:21  

Okay, so how would you prefer to just have it in an email? So you just printed it off? Stick it up? 


Brett Bartholomew  1:20:25  

Yeah. I mean, if you can put it I better yet. Like, can you just like format it for me? So it’s not super small. Can you I’m getting I’m old school man. I’m old school. So that’s what I wanted to everybody. Now every coach I’ve worked with in the past is so avant garde. I just need somebody and then the same thing with meetings. Dan, I love you. I don’t want to get on zooms. I do zooms all day. So how can we connect during the week? Can we do phone? Can we do FaceTime? Is there anything else there?


Dan Forbes  1:20:49  

But I’d love phone. I’d love phone, we can jump on phone, have a call and we can walk at the same time.


Brett Bartholomew  1:20:55  

Great. Boom. So like very basic example, guys. But the point is, is what do we do? Jake gave a great example. Let’s talk about your niche and your avatar. Perfect. works perfect. Let’s say Dan was like, ah, that doesn’t work for me. Ali had some great questions took a different approach. Let’s say somebody, that doesn’t work for me, I tried going via negativa, broader differentiation, something’s gonna work, something is gonna work. And then when all else fails, if we do get in a sticky point in the coalition, roleplay roleplay roleplay. Nothing prepares you for real life, like simulations of real life. Say it with me. You know, it’s just like, people are so scared to roleplay and get into the muck, but that is real coaching. That is real coaching. And yeah, there’s a lot more I could say, but I know this has been a long episode. So I’m gonna let you guys if you have like, a consolidating point, each one of you and then I’m gonna close it out. We’ll get people on their way. Great job, by the way, everybody. Ali hit it up. What do you want to say?


Ali Kershner  1:21:50  

Yeah, no, I mean, I think the old version of me. I know, I’m not that old. But the old version of me would have, you know, put on her skeptical rational brain and figured out a reason not to do something like this, when in reality, I need nothing more than a community of like minded but also willing to play devil’s advocate individuals who are at different points in their lives to ask the right questions, pushed me to be uncomfortable, and to offer just a supportive network when you know, so like, what I have the freedom to explore new ideas and try them and come back and know that that I have the support of a lot of great professionals around me. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:22:38  

Great point, Dan.


Dan Forbes  1:22:41  

The tough one to follow. Pretty much agree with everything Ali said. And if you’re someone that’s someone that you’re frustrated with just of just being where you are, and you can’t take things to that to that next level, then this isn’t you can you can get into, you can get some solid advice around actually what this process needs to look like for you. You can have someone hold you accountable, not by being like, not by being a dick about it. You know, they can just hold you accountable to it. And like you can get to where you need to get to


Brett Bartholomew  1:23:14  



Jacob Swart  1:23:15  

Yeah, I just want to build off what Ali said. I think she put up beautifully. But at the end of day two, like, I thought it was really insane when you talked about like the old version of you, right? Well, like, Yeah, sure. You’re not like you’re not 40. Right? It but we constantly elevate and life is not black and white. So like the old you constantly trying to justify why you should or shouldn’t putting things on paper doing the math does this make sense? The world is gray. Life is messy. We take that approach very seriously here at the Art of coaching as well. Like there’s no like what Dan was talking about, like he doesn’t like do cookie cutter programming with his clients. We don’t do cookie cutter, mentoring or cookie cutter coalition’s, or whatever you want to call what we do. It’s not there’s no black and white way of doing things. And that’s why we work really hard. And we’re really protective to make sure that the people that are going to be in this group, they’re there for the right reasons, and they’re gonna be able to like not just us the coaches but everybody involved in that group has something to bring to the table. And they’re and that value in and of itself. You can’t put that on paper. It’s not black and white, but you will be better because of it.


Brett Bartholomew  1:24:28  

Yeah, I mean spot on. I mean, guys, at the end of the day, in and we’ll leave it with this time is the most valuable commodity we have. Nobody wants to waste it. Once it’s gone. You don’t get it back, you just don’t. And the whole goal of the coalition is to guide those looking to improve by helping them aka you avoid the potentially costly pitfalls that you inherently are more likely to make when you don’t have a community to guide and share. I mean, this is what this is. It’s a tribe of mentors. That is a group it is your own personal kind of sounding board, your board of directors if you will, and So, you know, it’s very clear, like we say this assertively who should join. And and by the way, we do this twice a year, only six months. The next round is in July, But you should join. If you want to brainstorm ideas and solutions with a diverse group of peers, you want to be held accountable, we view we beat that term to death, you have a passion for improving and guiding and helping others. You crave feedback, you want more freedom in what you do, you want to make a bigger impact, you know, and you can actually commit consistently right, like who should not join, I’ll make it really easy for you, 


what we do it when the coalition is not right for you, if you’re not willing to find and make time in your schedule to meet twice a month, twice a month, like 60 to 90 minutes, depending on what tier you sign up for. If you’re not willing to invest in yourself or put skin in the game, meaning like you’re the type that wants everything for free, more power to you, but you’re gonna run into a lot of obstacles in life. If you want to be surrounded by an echo chamber that doesn’t challenge you, you’re not willing to change or you’re kind of only in it for yourself. And that is probably the most ardent one that we see about like we stand behind is like, if you just want to come and get what you want out of it, and then peace out not talking about don’t do it, don’t do it. But at the end of the day, we just want people that are going to try to help others and and value these kinds of things. So, Jake, Ali, Dan, I can’t appreciate you guys enough, everybody listening. Thanks for sticking with us. Again. You can find more information at Or you can just reach out to us on our contact us page at So from myself, Ali Kirschner, Dan Forbes, Jacob Swart art of coaching we’re out of here


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