E211 | Andrew Leslie & Anton Fero: Bringing Design Thinking to Entrepreneurship

More often than not, our brilliant ideas are stymied because we lack the skills to properly think through them and take the first step; We get stuck.

• How do I put this into words and get it out of my head?
• How do I communicate this in a way that will allow others to share my vision?
• How should this look or feel or function?
• Will this even work? And what happens if it does?

On today’s episode, we’re joined by a team of innovators who help people realize and capture their creativity in a way that allows them to share it with the world. 

With an education and background in Design Thinking, Andrew Leslie worked for 8 years in innovation strategy for numerous fortune 500 companies- traveling the world helping brands forecast, create and innovate. Anton Fero, his business partner, was both in the performing arts and built a faith based community as a pastor before turning a garage gym into a multi-million dollar facility. 

During the pandemic they joined forces to rethink the functionality of the gym and began their own business and coaching consulting business, Comn. 

On today’s episode we cover: 

• How to apply design thinking to any business or idea
• The two biggest mistakes we make when creating something new & how to avoid them
• Why it’s essential to have skin in the game & the ROI of hiring your own coach
• The essential tools for building a business that lasts

Get in touch with Andrew & Anton:

Via Instagram: @comncollective

Via their website: comncollective.com

Via their gym: bluehousefitness.com

You probably heard on today’s episode that we are launching a 30-DAY CHALLENGE. This is a brand new program designed to teach and help you apply the most important communication and interpersonal skills to your everyday life. Through a dedicated online community, PDF printouts, community and individual challenges and direct access to our team, learn more about the April challenge HERE.

As for the sponsors of today’s show: 

• DFND: As our official compression partner, DFND is engineered to help everyone who loves to train and compete go harder longer, recover quicker, and get better faster. Their first line of compression wear was tested on special forces trainees under the harshest training conditions in the world, but now they’re worn by athletes at all levels and anyone serious about performance. Use code: AOC20 to get 20% off your order. 
• Momentous: As our longest standing partner, Momentous has always been my go to protein and sleep supplement. All NSF approved, these are the cleanest and best tasting performance supplements in the game. Use code BRETT15 for 15% off! 
• LMNT: With no sugar and no additives, LMNT is how I manage to maintain my voice when speaking for 16 hours and traveling every other weekend of the year. Right now, they are offering you a free 8-flavor sample pack (just pay $5 shipping) if you go to drinkLMNT.com/aoc!
• Dynamic Fitness & Strength: Dynamic is our title sponsor and our go-to equipment guys. If you need anything for your home or full-sized gym- they offer the most affordable, customizable, durable equipment on the market.

Brett Bartholomew  0:00  

Hi everyone, Brett here, thank you again for sitting down with me and spending some time, you know, something we’re very much focused on here at art of coaching is helping people with things whose importance and relevance doesn’t change over time. And for us, that is wholeheartedly all about communication. Now I know many of you probably don’t wake up out of bed every day and think, man, I really want to be a better communicator, you might not use those terms. But I think you can agree we do wake up out of bed, or we do go to bed thinking, I want to have less drama in my life, I wish I got along with so and so better. I wish I could get my point across, I wish I could express myself more clearly, I wish I could figure out how to overcome blank barrier, almost everything in our life comes back down to some relationship we have with somebody else, or maybe even ourselves. And we don’t always know how to navigate this. And oftentimes books about this speak to it in a really rah rah kind of cheerleader based way, but aren’t super tactical. And then other things are really hardcore, we try to find the middle ground, we always want to give you guys things that are welcoming, inclusive, but also very practical. And for that, I’m proud to announce that we are starting a challenge of our own. Yes, just like you see fitness challenges, and you see people tracking their sleep, we find it odd that people do nothing for their relationships and their communication. So this is something we’re doing at artofcoaching.com/challenge. It’s brand new, it’s coming out this April. And we’ve never released a lot of this stuff before and definitely not in this way. 

 

Think of it like this, it’s 30 days, micro content and interactions that you can do really on your own time that help you navigate some of the stickiest situations in your life. So with this, we’re giving you a system. And you can do this with us, you can do it on your own schedule, you can do it all virtually it’s all very straightforward. You’re going to be able to follow along with our own communication material, that we’re teaching new lessons, once a week, you’re going to be able to actually get assignments that keep you accountable, nothing boring things that are definitely engaging and have multiple use cases, we’re going to do a weekly zoom call, we’re going to have a happy hours well, and most importantly, just going to be able to engage with our team and our community. 

 

I think, you know, when I talked about these things, I struggled to really quote unquote, sell them because I guess I shouldn’t feel like I have to when you think about all these things that we track food, water, sleep fitness, it’s apparent that this is an area that we cannot lose out on. You’ve got to be able to track how we can better navigate some of our social interactions. So even if it seems weird to you, even if we seem crazy to you, give it a chance artofcoaching.com/challenge and remember the quote by Machiavelli, yes, I will quote him, men and of course women as well. This is inclusive intrinsically do not trust things that they have not experienced themselves. So before you say this isn’t for you, please consider giving it a try artofcoaching.com/challenge.

 

Today’s conversation is brought to you by DFND, DFNDis the official compression partner and style partner of art of coaching. And I say that because not only do they specialize in products that help maximize human performance, they also are the individuals that have given us these amazing White Black pullovers, they just make really comfortable stuff that looks great performs well and will last everything they do is 100% Berry compliant. It’s made in the USA, and it’s crafted to support the needs of individuals training, or I’ll even say traveling at any level, since its initial launch defend has been adopted by the NBA NFL and over 100 Division One collegiate teams use code A O C 20 That’s two zero to get 20% off your order. Again, that’s A O C 20 to get 20% off your order, you can find them of course, at artofcoaching.com/partners. 

 

Our episode is also brought to you by Momentous our longest lasting sponsor Momentous creates no compromise nutrition products and tools that support really the endless improvement of personal performance. Now whatever performance means to you. I know for my mom, that means walking around the lake a few times a day and strength training twice a week for others that might be getting out and hitting the road on your bike. For other people that might be completely something different. And so it doesn’t matter what performance means momentous is simply the only company that provides things that I really recommend to people. Listen, it’s tricky. There’s so much filler out there in a lot of different products. I know, people go to Costco and they go to Amazon and they think fish oils, fish oil, proteins, protein, sleep products or sleep products. They’re not these things are not regularly tested by the FDA. But companies like Momentus put their stuff under the most strict testing there is they’re all NSF approved. It’s as clean as it gets. It’s as practical as it gets. And you can save 25% By using code Brett B, R, E, T, T, two, five again, 25% b, r, e, t t two, five once again, you can find them at artofcoaching.com/partners. 

 

Then finally, LMNT LMNT is a tasty electrolyte drink mix that contains everything you need nothing you don’t know sugar, all natural ingredients. Friendly, whether you’re paleo keto, some kind of other O, that we haven’t even heard yet. claim your free sample pack today, you only pay $5 free shipping in the US go to drinklmnt.com/aoc. Again, that’s drinklmnt.com/aoc.

 

Welcome to the Art of coaching podcast, a show aimed at getting to the core of what it takes to change attitudes, behaviors and outcomes in the weight room, boardroom classroom, and everywhere in between. I’m your host, Brett Bartholomew, I’m a performance coach, keynote speaker and the author of the book conscious coaching. But most importantly, I’m a lifelong student interested in all aspects of human behavior and communication. I want to thank you for joining me. And now let’s dive into today’s episode.

 

Think about all the times that you have this idea that you wanted to run with, but you kind of felt stuck, you really didn’t know how to go about the design of it, you didn’t know how to go about the implementation of it just all of it seemed really overwhelming. And then time and time again, you find yourself either laying in bed or going for a run with this thing gnawing at you that you’ve never done just because you can’t seem to get it out of your head and figure out the next steps. Well, today we turn to two of our guests, Andrew Lesley and Anton Fero to help us learn how to better navigate this. 

 

Now to give a little bit of context into both of them. Andrew was educated at the University of Strathclyde in design thinking and also at Harvard Business School Online in brand strategy. He applied a lot of his learnings through an eight year career with Fortune 500 in innovation strategy, fancy term, right. But even the big dawgs have trouble with these things. And that time he has traveled to every corner of the globe, he’s been responsible for helping organizations and individuals on Earth insights, figure out how to forecast what might be coming next. And also just to be able to create groundbreaking innovation that has led to the world’s first products in certain categories, services and nuanced business models. 

 

Now in terms of Anton and I love this born in Washington State, Anton moved to New York City and pursued a career in the performing arts. He then built his own faith based community as a pastor where he went to found the common place. While he was investing in that local community through the common place, he then opened a small community fitness facility in his very own garage for that community. And that turned into him scaling this into a multi million dollar facility that serves over 200. Members, guys, when we say that the art of coaching podcast is for everybody. And that coaching is really indicative of anybody that leads teaches orchestrates or guides, we mean it and these two individuals are signposts and prime examples of this. We’re going to talk about a lot of things here and we’re going to talk about it in a real way. I always try to go into these conversations with a mix of Yeah, research and due diligence, but also this naive sense of wonder so that we can get really clear and I can ask questions on your behalf. So I really think you’re going to enjoy this especially if you’re somebody that struggled with making sense of all the things that go in and out of your head on a daily basis. You’re also going to enjoy the hot seat that I put these two in at the end of this episode. So tune in grab your notepad and let’s get on with it

 

everybody welcome back to another conversation of the art of coaching podcast. I am here with Andrew Leslie and Anton Faro, guys welcome to the show.

 

Andrew Leslie  9:59  

Hey Brett Thanks for having us.

 

Brett Bartholomew  10:01  

I want to see who is going to talk over who right then, you know, like, that’s always a fascinating like social dynamic, I see that Andrew stepped firmly into the power dynamic lead. And so I mean, let’s just start with the obvious question. Anton, how do you feel about Andrew just bulldozing you like that in the intro,

 

Anton Fero  10:17  

but this is actually a lot of shit we have to deal with all the time. Andrew and I have a very interesting power dynamic, but I love it.

 

Brett Bartholomew  10:25  

So I want to hear that describe because not only do you have an interesting power dynamic, but for anybody that listened to the intro, and we always guys make sure you do you guys have very interesting backgrounds. So you by all means do not need to go into like, hey, from birth to now, how did you get to where you are. But talk to me a little bit about how what you guys do in the space that you’re in has evolved into what it is now help us make sense of you in two minutes or less? 

 

Andrew Leslie  10:51  

Anton you go first

 

Anton Fero  10:57  

thank you, my friend. well, I will say this, I met Andy, during the pandemic, because he showed up at my gym, you know, and I was clearly in the power seat, man, which was nice. But what was nice was, you know, the pandemic brought up a lot of things for the business that I run this gym called Blue House fitness. And Andy ended up coming to me saying, Hey, I got all these ideas. And it was like the typical thing where you have that one member that you’re like, Why the hell do you think you can tell me how to run a business?

 

Brett Bartholomew  11:29  

I think a lot of people will relate to that.

 

Anton Fero  11:31  

Yes. And I was like, I’ve had too many people do this. And I kind of didn’t listen to Andy. But what was interesting was, as we got to know each other, we became friends. I was like, Dude, this guy actually knows his shit, this guy is on it. And we became good friends. He helped me a lot, actually, with blue house, using a lot of the tactics and principles that we use now. But that’s kind of what how it started was. And then we started talking about, hey, what if we did something together? What if we did some coaching and consulting? And so here we are today.

 

Brett Bartholomew  12:01  

And I appreciate that. And I have to ask one obvious question, because you know, our audience, we have a sports performance background, right, myself and Ali, and all of us at art of coaching. But we’ve crossed over into so many other industries, and we continue to, and you guys are representative of that kind of in a different way. Like Andrew, you spoke at our leadership summit, we met through my friend John Christie. And you know, at the time you were working with Adidas, you were working, like how did you go with this background of design and working for Adidas and all these other things you’ve done to now becoming really like the director of business development in at a place that focuses on fitness. 

 

And I’m being reductive there for a reason, Anton, right, just helping people understand connect the dots of like, everybody here has a journey that has been kind of messy in some way or another. So talk to us a little bit about how these things happened. Besides the fact that maybe you just liked Anton and he had a cool gym.

 

Andrew Leslie  12:53  

Yeah, well, it’s funny because Anton thinks I had my shit together, I felt like I was still coming out the back of using design thinking to make a lot of shirts, shoes and accessories. Right. And I think what was really interesting is joining like, for example, your art of coaching Leadership Summit, starting to mentor a few kids at a local school, you know, in California, things like that, I started realize, maybe I can help people outside of just shirts and shoes with what I’ve learned. But I was just scratching the surface. And then, you know, going into the gym, shared a few ideas with that, and ideas with Anton. And I think that’s where I was, like, we started to implement them. And here’s the difference, right, I was like, using the same principles of design thinking, the big differences, instead of taking 18 months, to three years, to see it applied, and see the result, we were seeing that in a matter of days, we were putting something into action, and I was able to see the result. That was like, amazing for me, you know, very rewarding. And also, we started to see success. So I was like, Holy shit, I actually can help. Like, the thing I learned is actually helpful. So, you know, I was still figuring out and learning myself that I have some value to add here. And I started to get a lot of joy out of that. So that was kind of one of the unlocks for me.

 

Brett Bartholomew  14:09  

You know, what I appreciate about that is your use example of a hey, I can help people be on shirts and shoes. For me that was sets and reps, right? Like Love, my old life as just purely a strength coach, but like something that we try to tell other coaches is like the act of coaching, just like the act of leadership and entrepreneurship is so much broader. Right? And so I love that because everybody thinks their own field is so unique and so special with all their problems, you know, and I just think that like, sometimes we get way too binary with what we do, you know, touching into my next question, but first a stat that I remember from the Leadership Summit, when you spoke at it, you had shared something and I’m gonna read it, you had a quote, you said no company coach or leader is too big to fail. And if you don’t embrace creativity, the maze of innovation and learn how to improvise, you’re not going to survive. And then you had this stat that showed the s&p 500 lifespan was 61 years in 19. Da. Now it’s 15 years for a company, you know, more specifically, you know, more than 100k small businesses when under that past year, what, when that 2020? Or is it 2021? When we did that? 2021

 

Andrew Leslie  15:13  

21 But when you were reflecting already on 2020, right,

 

Brett Bartholomew  15:16  

yeah. And so you’re looking at these things. And so, you know, by and large, being able to be creative, being innovative, whether it’s as a coach, whether it’s a leader, whether it’s a business owner, relies on a lot of principles of adaptation and innovation, but what the hell is design thinking for anybody that hasn’t even heard that term before? Help me help them make sense of that before we dive deeper?

 

Andrew Leslie  15:38  

Okay, okay to follow. But one thing I want to share is something Anton, and I’ve been tossing back and forth is creating versus consuming. Right. And I think, not where there’s so much consumption today, right. And that’s why we turn like, you know, we’re turning resources into products and people and communities into consumers and markets. Right. And we’ve talked about that. And I’m quoting from Anton’s book there, that he was reading, but I will say, I think creativity is really important, because it enables you to look at the world differently. If you’re an athlete, you can be creative, the ones that are changing the game. It’s because they’re creative in how they approach training, the moment of sport as well, right. And I think that’s how they set a tone for the future of that sport. It’s the same in business, I think you have to have an open mind, and you need to be able to see beauty and opportunity in the most mundane things. So I think it’s really important to toy with creativity, but people are like, what does that mean? Like, it just means here’s an example. Instead of getting on and scrolling, and obsessed with seven second videos, like, look at something longer get to a whiteboard, and understand what it means for you make sense of that for you, your business, your person, whatever it is. And the same thing, like instead of, you know, consuming TV, go put your voice out there, you know, go share something that you learned, jump hop on, it doesn’t need to be social media, there’s so many formats. So I just think it’s really great to encourage yourself to be creative. And that’s kind of what it means to me. But we can get into design thinking too. If you want me to share more on that we

 

Brett Bartholomew  17:15  

want to just like layering on that. And then I want to hear from Anton and we’re gonna hit a lot of bumps here as it continues to coalesce and what you guys are doing and how it can help more people. First off, you know, you’re spot on with the creativity piece and for anybody that’s just listening, we had an episode 171 with Gabe Polsky called In Search of greatness, which is all about what Andrew just talked about, and gave his show his movie follows Wayne Gretzky and some of the best at what they do about how they leverage creativity to overcome really what was the lack of athletic prowess, none of them were the top tier Alpha Dog with that. So be sure to check that out, as it continues to lend, like further credence to what Andrew was talking about, 

 

you know, with design thinking, let’s pause on that real quick. Because I do want to bring Anton in for a second. Anton like you two. I mean, you have this guy that an Andrew that has this background has this extreme passion for creativity. Obviously, you’ve expressed this you if I remember correctly, you left School for Performing Arts, right? You were a pastor, you got into coaching the started, like your own gym out of your garage, and now you have a $1 million facility, like that kind of role in your life and adapting as well to right, like how does that lend insight into what some things that you’ve learned and how it fits with what you guys are doing now?

 

Anton Fero  18:34  

Yeah, I mean, I think what was interesting is there’s probably some intuitive stuff that I was using a lot of these principles before I understood them. I did not have a clue what design thinking was until I met Andy. But I think what was really interesting was, where we really connected on this on these principles was when Andy said, Hey, we should try this. I was like, shoot, let’s try it right now. Let’s do it right now. Like we just didn’t, we had so much success as a business in the pandemic, because we were so willing to just try everything and anything. And our gym is literally so different from 2019 We have a different name. We have different coaches, different staff different, everything’s different, because we’re willing to put it on the table and be super creative. So yeah, I mean, it’s helped us personally, and I think Andy has put a lot of language to it, which I think is gonna help a lot more people.

 

Brett Bartholomew  19:29  

Yeah, yeah, well, no. And, like, that’s where my ignorance and I’ll probably come off sounding really stupid saying this, but that’s why I asked what design thinking because I think about it, and we mentioned it off air a little bit. You know, I remember, you know, I’m reading a book right now. And I always have to make sure I get the name of the book, right. I want to the design of everyday thing. And it’s by Don Norman, and I’m reading it in part because, you know, before I got into what I’m doing now with human behavior and communication and power dynamics, really what I nerded out a lot about was motor learning how Humans navigate their environment across constraints, how we develop these complex motor skills, which obviously isn’t a huge leap now to me looking at interpersonal skills, which are probably of equal or greater complexity. But within that there were Design Thinking aspects as I knew it. 

 

And this is where all sounds stupid, but bear with me. And I knew about things called affordances, right? What are the relationships between an object and a human. So if I pick up, you know, this water bottle here, this Yeti, and I know some people can’t see it, there’s an affordance there in that handle that allows me to have a relationship with how I act with this object. When I stayed at a hotel recently, there’s a signifier, and it would be an arrow that pointed to a button in the elevator that was, you know, the affordance, the buttons for pushing to take me to the lobby, then I know, I learned the term mapping. And I learned the term mapping because our house is the most miserable architectural design of mapping and that mapping, as I understood it, is like, let’s say somebody’s got a light to their right. And that light switch for that light, which is to the right is all the way over to their left, that’s poor mapping, or our garbage disposal, the button for the garbage disposal is nowhere near the damn garbage disposal. 

 

So like, that’s the really, so I think of constraints mappings, affordances signifiers, am I completely wrong? Does this have anything to do with design thinking? what are you guys focused on when it comes to design thinking?

 

Anton Fero  21:24  

Yeah, I can take this on at least to start I so what you’re pointing to is like, I think a lot of usability testing, right? Like, how well does that handle or the arrow solve someone’s problem? And at the heart of design thinking, sometimes it’s called Human Centered Design Thinking. Right. And I think the beauty of it is what works great is it puts a person at the center of of the process, right? You’re trying to click down and understand the why beneath, you know what someone’s sharing with you. So let’s maybe we take that handle, why why do they need a handle in the first place? More so like, keep you would keep asking why, right? Like to understand the problem that you’re trying to solve. And then you can start to, once you understand that problem, start to create different ideas to solve it. I think what we see a lot in not just like big business, small business, social entrepreneurship doesn’t matter is people rushed to the solution. Before they’re really taking time to understand who they’re serving, the problem they’re trying to serve, and really taking time to diverge and create a lot of new ideas before they like narrow into the one they’re going to take to market they spend forever on implementation, and then ask why they have to re engineer and remake or remarket later on. Because it doesn’t, it isn’t meeting the needs, or it’s serving the wrong person. And so design thinking there’s hundreds of methodologies out there. And I’m not an expert by any means. I was educated in it, and I’ve applied it at Autodesk. But I think there’s so many methodologies you can it’s very pliable. But what we’ve done is created taken kind of five key steps. And then we’ve applied I would say, like character and competence. So competence is you can use this this kind of flow to start a business scale a business, essentially, all you’re doing, though, is understanding the problem and creating an idea. But what’s really cool, this is the fun bit. And this is the bit we’ve been toying with is, if you look at, like, part of the problem this is in sport and business is people don’t know themselves. We’ve all

 

Brett Bartholomew  23:33  

That’s a huge problem 100% 1,000%

 

Andrew Leslie  23:37  

Yeah, they get better at what they do, but not who they are. And so they spend a lot of time technical tactical getting better at that. But first of all, understanding who you are is extremely important. what your purpose is your cause your character, then like what are the skills that you want? That is in good leadership, right? A good entrepreneur, because if we build better people, they will make better decisions, which will help communities help us resources better, we get it, right. 

 

And I think that’s where that’s where I’d love to click into, because it’s, that’s what’s really cool. So when we spend time building the business plan and the strategy at the start, we actually spend time seeking clarity with the individual. When we look at, you know, conducting research with who they serve as competence, we then get into, okay, empathy as a skill as a leader. When we get into creating new ideas, we’re going productivity, how can you be productive because you can’t be creative if you don’t have time to be creative, right? And so there’s a couple more like that but we really are trying to look at the entrepreneur themselves as a person and then you know, the business itself as well.

 

Anton Fero  24:47  

Give a really like, tangible example of the way this looks. With the gym. Every a lot of people a lot of entrepreneurs make mistake what Andy’s talking about with coming up with a solution before they know the problem, everybody in 2020, right? If you’re a gym, what’s the intuitive response, we got to go online? This is what we got to do. And through this process, Andy, and I actually decided that blue house was going to go the opposite direction. So we said, Fuck online, because nobody in our gym wants that. And let’s actually put double down on being an in person sought after destination. And that was the most pivotal thing we figured out last year. And it was through this process. Because if we didn’t go through this, we would have just gone online, because that’s what everybody told you to do.

 

Brett Bartholomew  25:40  

Yeah, so I think, oh, go ahead.

 

Anton Fero  25:43  

No, I just think it’s a good example of using this process.

 

Brett Bartholomew  25:46  

Yeah. Well, and I’m glad that you like this is why Right. Like we go, the route that we do with this podcast is we want people do we hear terms every day. And everybody’s meanings aren’t in words, they’re in people, right? So people listening are going to hear design thinking. And that means completely different things to everybody else. The way you guys have described, this now is crystal clear. Now admittedly, like I think it’s become clear to us because we have our own products that we had to lean in to kind of like you talked about you guys change your roadmap, or you took a different approach and most gyms, in that, you know, when the pandemic hit a lot of our workshops, closed, like closed down internationally, we had these workshops that are really about conflict resolution negotiation, really about the art of dealing with people in difficult situations, because like you said, Andrew, you know, a lot of people are good at what they do, getting better at what they do, but they don’t know who they are. And we use constraints led approaches to help people learn, like, wow, I’m not really as good of a communicator as I am. But when those hit, we’re like, we’re screwed, Anton, like we were worried. We poured a lot of money into this stuff. And then all of a sudden, a different business segment popped up. All of a sudden, something that I had gotten ostracized for early on in my career, building a brand for myself, which was a big no no, in performance coaching. When I came out with my book, people were hitting us up with because of the pandemic, all of a sudden had led to them getting furloughed. It had led to them, like they kind of realized that all these clubs and organizations they were being loyal to weren’t super loyal to them. So people were like, Hey, how do I build a brand? How do I do this? And that made us sit down and think about Alright, this is a segment that we need to lean into. And with your method of design thinking, it would be easy to just be like, Okay, let’s, let’s copy and paste how to build a . 

 

No, no, no, stop, let’s get tactical. First, let’s help you deal with imposter phenomenon. Because most of our audience feels like nobody’s gonna give a shit set. Because it doesn’t matter what your ideas are, who you’re going to help. And I know you guys speak to this, if you don’t know who you are, you’ve stated it perfectly, Andrew. Now let’s talk about what this thing is, how have you pressure tested it? How is it going to stand out? And then how do you find that balance? Which I’m going to turn back to you guys? How do you find that balance when they are creating something where purpose plays a role, right? They have this thing that they want to follow this purpose. But they also have to be mindful that that audience right away might not understand that purpose. We don’t always understand how to use our tools, use the information, we’re given us these things. 

 

So like for somebody that’s just like, Alright, guys, Andrew, and Anton, I want to do something. I’m scared shitless people are probably going to reject it. Where do you have them start with this five step approach of design thinking? Take it away with that?

 

Anton Fero  28:27  

Go for it, Andrew.

 

Andrew Leslie  28:29  

I’ll speak from something that a tool that you use a lot Anton with, like, it’s a version of IKI guy, right? Meaning MPS meaning pleasure and skills. I think that’s great, because I think we can apply our own experience. Right, 

 

Anton Fero  28:43  

Andrew, really quickly, I just want to say that happier if anybody wants to know the book, it’s happier. It was a book by a Harvard psychologist. He has like the most famous course at Harvard ever on positive psychology. And so he used this book. I’ll tell Ben sharar, if anybody wants to look that up. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  29:03  

Perfect. Thank you.

 

Andrew Leslie  29:06  

Yeah. And I think that let’s start there, because the cool thing, Anton and I came to together realizing we complement one another, we’re very different. Right? And I’ll get to my point in a second, but he’s got this kind of bullish optimism a little I jump in first, right? But he’s got, you know, that confidence. I think, as a grassroots entrepreneur, and I’ve came from more of a process, strategic thinker, you know, in Fortune 500 is very different backgrounds. But when we both do the NPS exercise, right, what gives us meaning what gives us pleasure or joy, and what best applies our skills. It’s really awesome. Like, because at the center point, we both put down business coaching or something along those lines, right. It was something that was actually play into all three.I’m not and that was like the commonality, you know, so for example, That’s something we might use that be one of many tactics that we might use to try and pull out. what is it somebody’s what is it that calls them to action? You know?

 

Brett Bartholomew  30:09  

Yeah. Anton, did you have something to say before I jump in and build off that? 

 

Anton Fero  30:13  

Yeah, well, I will just say this. The biggest thing for me because I’ve had the opportunity, I think, even though my frickin upbringing was shit, like, Yeah, we don’t have to get into all that. But

 

Brett Bartholomew  30:25  

later, we might, we might investigate that later, you’ve opened the Pandora’s Box, buddy.

 

Anton Fero  30:29  

Well, here’s the thing, I just I’ve had the pleasure, I feel like to do a lot of things I love to do. I didn’t, I’ve had moments in my 20s, where I had to do some really crappy stuff that took my soul. But I think I’ve come to this realization that the greatest thing we can do is do something that we love that we’re also good at. And that’s going to have an impact on the world and the people around us. I mean, maybe as simple as our neighborhood. Like that really connects with me. And I think as I’ve coached a lot of people, the biggest thing I’ve seen is that when people start to walk in that, connection of meaning pleasure, and there’s an unlock there, it doesn’t matter necessarily how much money they’re making, although that’s helpful. it’s like they have meaning for what they’re doing.

 

Andrew Leslie  31:19  

And we, never say it’s not like, you know, it’s not income without impact, but its impact first. And I think that’s something like, for example, getting into business coaching, we’re not doing it right now. Because it’s extremely lucrative. it’s the opposite. You know, it’s right now we’re doing it because it feels like a calling, we feel called to do it. Like I realized, all right, yeah, I can keep just making shirts and shoes. And by the way, I’m not shitting all over that career. It’s been amazing. It taught me so much. And we can talk about that more if you want. But like, I’m going, Okay, I’ve got something, I can add some value to this local community, I can add some value to this, you know, social entrepreneurship, this business, whatever it might be. And I feel called to try and help people to do that. Because wouldn’t it be amazing to get to the end of the year, instead of making one shoe I made, I helped 50 businesses start to grow the economy and a local area or whatever it might be like that feels okay, now we’re getting into the Goosebumps stuff. You know,

 

Brett Bartholomew  32:18  

yeah. 100%. And this is something wrong with me on this. Okay. I’m gonna play devil’s advocate on something that I’ve seen time and time again, that fits with what you guys are talking about. And I’m sure you’ve seen some that you both have coached and mentored for over a decade, right. And I understand that betterment of others is a core focus. And like you said, just to consolidate and bring everybody back in, right, what we’re talking about here is, helping people better know themselves well enough, who they want to serve and building stuff that really can be used and helpful and scalable in a variety of ways. Right? Am I correct? And all that before I go on? Yes. Okay, so here’s, here’s something I struggle with. And I’m glad to use the term iki. Guy, Anton, because I’m gonna pull up a case study. 

 

So we have I hate the term mastermind, but we have, we have like a mastermind we call the coalition. And I say I hate the term mastermind, because it always kind of conveys, you know, these douchey thoughts of some dude in a sport coat, shooting a gun, platinum blonde wife, private jet being like, want to live your reality, you know, and you’re like, dude, not that type. But we have somebody that is tremendously skilled, I’m going to withhold their name and people apply, you’ve got to create trip wires, right? Because otherwise, just to a degree, people don’t engage in any self discovery. And this is somebody that’s highly intelligent, and they literally say, hey, you know, I’m trying to find my, iki guy, I’m trying to find something that allows me like, I’m amongst the best in the world that that I’m highly passionate about that I get paid for. And I said, you know, well, in one of the questions were like, alright, well, what’s one thing that holds you back? And this is an example of somebody that’s just like, Listen, you know, some of my greatest fears is that I’m not going to ever take my shot opinions of others you know, I’m not lacking for information I just kind of tend to lack on overthinking I tend to lack with implementing, a lot of times they do what we call at art of coaching and we didn’t the terms not our own but yak shaving, right. These are the people that for years they kind of dabble around the things that are meaningful, the things that they are passionate about the things that they have skills, but they never just dive in 

 

even when people find these things, even when they fin their passion and meaning in what they do, what the hell do you do about the people that continually find excuses for not putting literally their money where their mouth is getting them to dive in getting them to invest in themselves like how can you make somebody essentially know themselves and take a leap if they’re constantly coming up with excuses of why that next step just isn’t the right time? Oh, you got

 

Andrew Leslie  34:53  

we shouldn’t be able to all of us can answer that right because teaching is the transfer of knowledge right but obviously Coaching is applying it. So it’s most of the time. It’s most of our job is like, are we therapists like, are we We’re trying to just coach through the emotions, the highs and lows? Like, I think one thing is like under, you know, there is that portrayal that you can move fast through something, but eventually it’s going to take some time, right, it might take five years to get to where you really want to be. And it’s making people aware of that. I think we talk a lot about tempo and rest, earned rest, you know, and I think that’s really important to plan in so that you don’t hit those roadblocks that just shake you back to ground zero, you know, I think it’s really important to be able to plan ahead. But yeah, when we think about like, let’s imagine you get to the end of the phase, you have an idea, and you’re ready to go to market, like how do you develop courage and confidence to take the leap? And I think, one on my side, what I went out there and I’ll pass it down to Anton is just people need, you know, there’s manifestation of what if I choose not to do this? What do I want to be remembered for? There’s also planning, right? If people can see financial projections, you know, a plan ahead of them, it can give them a lot of confidence to go in on it, you know, you know, support network around them. But ya know, Anton, if you want to add anything, I mean, you’ve talked a lot about taking the leap. Right,

 

Brett Bartholomew  36:18  

Anton, you look, I’m gonna, I’m gonna say it, You look stressed as hell. Good. So I don’t know if I’m asking you questions where you’re like, Hey, dude, why’d you have to take it there? Or if it’s something deeply meaningful to you, but I can’t wait to hear what you’re about to say.

 

Anton Fero  36:31  

Well, bro, this is like the ultimate question. First off, Andy didn’t even answer it.

 

Brett Bartholomew  36:37  

Andrew, you didn’t. You use a lot of pretty words, and you’re brilliant. But what was that about? Oh, busting your balls, buddy.

 

Anton Fero  36:44  

I think what I heard you say was what do I do with people that have great ideas, but aren’t willing to do anything? And like, not even start the journey right at we’re not talking about people that are we’re working with, it’s like, and I would say this, I just, I’ve gotten to this place where I’ve had to get really confident even looking at people that are coming to do a sales call the gym and go, I don’t think this is the right place for you. I finally started doing that. And that has been the biggest release of stress. I don’t think you’re I don’t honestly think you’re ready. And when you are ready, come back. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  37:21  

you mean, like you doing the sales calls and potential clients, you’ve been asked to really be in like, you’re not ready? Am I correct in that? 

 

Anton Fero  37:29  

It’s like, what you’re saying they are coming in with all the ideas, all the goals. But as I click down, I’m like, you don’t want to do this, you’re not ready to invest in yourself. You are, playing a game right now. And you’re wasting my time. So it’s like, hey, come back when you’re ready. Like, I don’t think this is right for you. I think we have to get a lot of identifying that in people. 

 

Andrew Leslie  37:52  

And we’ve done a few clients recently, right? Like, I think, tangible example, because now I know where you’re going with that. They didn’t really have any skin in the game. So they hadn’t really invested. We’ve given away mentorship and things for a long time. That’s a great example of running into, I don’t really know, you know, people are not ready and you’re like, you’re not ready for this, you don’t know yourself and what you want to do. Or you’re if you need to build that confidence, we can give you all these tools the fancy words I mentioned. But I think you’re absolutely right, like some and what did help was going, when you’re ready, sign up and put some skin in the game. And then let’s talk and we’re gonna get you there. But there takes that that leap. Right?

 

Brett Bartholomew  38:33  

Yeah. And like, I have so many conflicting emotions about that, which I’m glad that hit home with you, Anton. I’m glad that I read your I’m glad that I didn’t ruin your day. But like it can, in the sense that like, where do I want to start with this? Having done this, then I just remember getting on calls with coaches that say they want all this help they have this idea, they want to pull it out. And eventually it becomes the price. Right? And you think as a business owner, and hopefully somebody can take heed in this. Because we have a whole episode on how to gain confidence charging what you’re worth, you’re trying to convince somebody, let’s say a program’s $3,000 Just for the sake of it right, or let’s say something you guys are they don’t understand that you might tell them something in one call that can save them 10 grand or think about somebody comes in trains at your guyses facility. And that release of stress adds to clarity of thinking, which makes them less likely to go home and yell or be in a bad mood with their spouse, which leads to a lot lower, likely people just don’t understand the difference between cost value. And they never will until they put skin in the game. And that’s something that I’m not trying to sound dramatic. It’s broken my heart trying to help some coaches in that because like I’ve had 15 plus years training athletes at what the you know, the lowest level of kids and the highest level of the jerseys represented behind me. 

 

But coaches sometimes are a bigger pain in the ass of getting out of their way and again, we use coaches synonymously with leaders teachers are orchestrators and it’s like, why can’t you guys get out of your own way? When you make your livelihood helping others do the same? Why do you not see yourself? in them? Do you have some you want to say to that, Anton?

 

Anton Fero  40:11  

Yeah. Oh, yeah. So look, I always like to tell people lately because I feel like I’m getting stretched as a leader, like over the last, especially since the pandemic. And I spent 30 grand personally on coaching last year, 

 

Brett Bartholomew  40:25  

that’s awesome. 

 

Anton Fero  40:27  

And every time somebody you know, and I say that confidently, because it’s like, people go, how is the gym so successful? Or how are you doing this? Or how do you? How do you and Andy build a whole frickin thing in five months? Well, it’s because we have coaches. I mean, And here’s the biggest thing that we’ve been saying lately is, I cannot tell you how many times I hear somebody say, we’ll hire you, and we’re doing better. And I’m like, what, you should be hiring somebody when you need the most help, which is a hard stretch, because it’s usually when you don’t have the capital.

 

Brett Bartholomew  40:58  

Hey, everyone, quick break in the action to remind you to go to artofcoaching.com/challenge. Right now, we firmly believe that if you cannot connect at a high level, you’re gonna have trouble competing or excelling in a wide variety of things. And this doesn’t even have to be related to your professional life. All of us have been in situations where we said something we wish we could have taken back, all of us have done something where we realize, man, if I could have just thought through this or made a better decision, or if I would have been able to vocalize how I felt about this, it wouldn’t have came off the wrong way. And if neither of those things were playing supreme devil’s advocate, at least some of us have felt like we could be clearer in the way we interact with people who mean a great deal to us. If any of these things are the case. And even if you feel like they’re not, please check out artofcoaching.com/challenge, we are doing something supremely inclusive, fun, challenging, and we’d love for you to be a part of it. There’s no excuse you can be anywhere in the world, you can do all of it at your own time. And this is not something that costs $800 $1,000 $400. This is very simple. And just like we work on our fitness, just like we work on our finances, just like we work on other things in our life, we have to work on our relationships. So one more time, I know to the point of annoyance, artofcoaching.com/challenge.

 

Anton Fero  42:34  

You shouldn’t be hiring somebody when you need the most help, which is a hard stretch, because it’s usually when you don’t have the capital. But you have to realize that the ROI from getting help from somebody further along is like you just said it’s such a massive difference, you know, from what you would be spending and I’ve seen it I mean, the ROI on this 30k is, I don’t even know. Yeah,

 

Brett Bartholomew  42:54  

I mean, I like it. I don’t mean to interrupt, I’ll pass it right back to you. But I want to be honest, because I’m talking about the like confusion that I have. But I do need to realize that like 2016, I was scared shitless to hire an assistant for $25 an hour, you know, but that came from like a scarcity bias of like not knowing who would who would believe in me and what I would do. You never knew when that. But then like you said, last year I hired I spent more money than ever hiring a coach. And that compelled me to have to show up at a greater level. You know, which I think as we’ve started to triage, you know, some of the audience when we’ve asked them, Hey, what is it because it’s not really about the money. And they’re like, You know what, you’re right. It’s not about the money. It’s about, I’m scared that I won’t follow through. And then and so I’m like, Okay, that’s a competent thing. 

 

We can work with that, you know, because that’s what training was, to me training was a tool to teach everybody what they’re capable of. And the minute you got under heavy load, there’s that moment where you’re like, am I going to come back up, right and then Jesus hits you in the face your nervous system, like he knows keep going when you don’t think you’re going to be able to keep pushing. And from that point on you’ve moved that threshold that loads not the same and for anybody that doesn’t strength train, liken it to walking two miles or running this or climbing it whatever. The bottom line is, you cross it so I think of me in 2016 Scared to hire a $25 an hour assistant. To me investing a scary amount of money in a coach I’m like, over that puts you in so much more rarefied air, you know, and like it helps you realize that you don’t need to be freaked out by it. You just have to have a little bit of faith that that skin in the game that blood in the water is going to be this thing that is like makes you wonderfully beholden to push your ideas. Andrew, do you have any thoughts on that? Or Anton? Sorry , I know I cut you off.

 

Andrew Leslie  44:34  

No, I just want to add like one a close friend of mine, Andy Walsh, if he’s not been on you need to get them on but he’s x performance director at Red Bull and he was the one responsible among the great team of pushing athletes artists right to their edge. But even though like they would do that and create these impossible moments, they were always working within a boundary. You know, we talked about this with a client this morning like to your point like you have, What are your resources? Time? Energy? Money? That’s it right? Outside of that it’s external. So that’s it on your side. So how do you choose to push the boundaries, you need to seek discomfort. So whether that’s actual risk or perceived risk, you need to find those boundaries. Now you need to understand your capacity and where those limits are. And that’s something that didn’t read fully understood. Okay, can I push your boundaries slightly outside, go, and it’s not because part of the problem your point, so you’re saying I only have $100, well, then let’s find a way to make that work. But you still have skin in the game, and you’re going to be you know, but it’s within, you’re going to push your boundary, I’m nervous about doing it, but you’re going to invest, and then slowly keep increasing that, you know, over time, like you would in strength training as an athlete, you know, that constant, up curve D loading when you need to, etc. But I think it’s really important as an entrepreneur and business to find that threshold and slowly push outside of it all the time, and we talk about that just seeking discomfort. There’s so many different ways to do it. 

 

But that’s a thought that comes to my mind, you know, understand your limits and slightly push outside you. You don’t want to come in and go Yeah, it doesn’t make sense to suddenly put all your time into it. All your money into it. Right, find your own threshold, but do push yourself.

 

Brett Bartholomew  46:17  

It’s a point. Anton, do you have some else?

 

Anton Fero  46:20  

Yeah, I mean, I love the correlation with fitness. Because there’s a lot there. I think, I’ve always thought of. I mean, go as far as you can, until you need help. Get help. Like, it’s so simple, but it’s like, I feel like as I’ve grown, there’s clear moments where I needed help. And I’m just thankful that I was not good at hiring people and getting help when I was younger.

 

Brett Bartholomew  46:52  

why was that? If you don’t mind me asking?

 

Anton Fero  46:55  

Yeah, I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I think the more I understand who I am, you know, like, if we know, the Enneagram, or anything like that, I’m definitely more of like a maverick type personality, you know, moved to New York City, when I’m 18 across the country, do everything on my own, I can do it. I don’t need help. And I think like, what I’ve realized is that, yeah, I can do a lot on my own. But I have been able to do far more than I could ever imagine. With help. It’s like, I still think I could have figured it out a lot of the things but it’s just it’s, the process has gone so much faster. With help. I think that’s, I mean, I’m thinking of, I tell this to members all the time at the gym, you can probably get a pull up on your own, maybe in like, a couple of years. You can work with me for three months and have it. So just what do you want to do? And a lot of people are like, I’ll do it in two years. Like, okay, you know, so that’s the way I’ve thought about coaching a lot lately.

 

Brett Bartholomew  47:53  

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. I think like that. I mean, that’s a core mission of ours. Right? What I’ve learned is people had I remember somebody, and this is gonna lead into a question I have with you guys about branding, and is like the organization you’ve started together, which we’ll get to in a minute after, is it pronounced Comn? How do you how do you C O, m n, right? Comn? Alright So as people think about branding, I remember getting on a call with somebody and they said, You know what, I think you’re gonna be really limited in your business. And I said, you know, cool, like, can you give me more context, and he goes, the term art of coaching, you’re always going to be stigmatized, as being sport and performance. And I said, Really, you know, and that’s something that we had tried to be mindful of at the beginning, you know, because we knew that we wanted to honor our background in that, but we didn’t want to be defined by it, you know. And so if you go to like, our website, you’re not going to see people doing snatches and cleans or whatever, because that’s not what art of coaching collectively is about. 

 

But like, it made me think, because I then I started going into the etymology of coaching, okay, really, around the 1500s is meant to take people on a journey, like a stagecoach here to there than using education, mentoring, and what have you, like, it really wasn’t until more recent history that it had anything to do with sport, right, but you see real estate coaches, you see coaches in every realm, and I just thought, you know, it’s interesting how we associate terms with our own worldview of these things, and that leads some people to that have a great purpose that have a unique skill set. I mean, some of them just get stuck in the weeds with branding. And that leads to kind of the question I have for you guys. 

 

You know, both of your backgrounds being so diverse, right? then being involved in blue house fitness, and now starting Comn. How do you navigate branding in a way that like doesn’t confuse the hell out of people where people are like, well, Andrew, I thought you were doing this. Well, you know, Anton, I thought you were doing this Comn like, what’s Comn now? Like, how do you take not only  making sense of what you do, but helping people navigate like all these other labels you might be under? Does that make sense? What I’m asking just how do you not I get the branding conundrum when you have this new idea that you want to share.

 

Andrew Leslie  50:06  

Yeah. So this is funny because Anton is like, Andy, why are you spending so long? Building the website, like, you should see all the back end that we’ve built for this for Comn, right. It’s robust. And deliberately because I’m a little more process orientated. So I got into reads a little bit on this project around, you know, we did set up branding, naming website, tone of voice, everything. And it was important, but at certain point, where we’re Anton’s like, you know, we gotta go in, friggin land. Some clients here, like help some people

 

Brett Bartholomew  50:41  

sign up and get,

 

Andrew Leslie  50:42  

and I’m like, No, dude, just, we just need just one more real, you know, and they’re coming, and like, the more that I spend on there, it works, right? And we have to shrink content down and down. So it’s more digestible. And like, I think what Anton is kind of brought in is just within our network, who can we help within our community? Who can we help? Let’s get out there and help them. And then people will start to understand our message, you know, and I think that’s been a good learning for me, too. So now that we’re, I don’t know, when we put it out there. I thought it was super obvious. People were like, What do you guys do? You know, so I think we still wasn’t clear. So no matter how even if your brand tagline says, your title is like, you know, whatever, I make shoes, then people are still gonna wonder why you’re doing it, what you’re all about what makes you different. And the only way to do it is yes, you can get on there and talk about it. But you just got to help people and let them share the positive kind of impact you’re having on their business or on their life. I think that’s where we’re finding and people are starting to understand and that kind of network effect. I don’t know. That’s something that comes to my mind, Anton anything. 

 

Anton Fero  51:45  

Yeah, I yeah, I think, well, it goes back to what we just said, as Andy was, you know, he can get really in the weeds on this stuff. It’s just his personality, super OCD, which is great. But I’m not. And I was like, well, let’s just hire somebody. So we hired somebody to do our branding. I mean, it was like, 

 

Andrew Leslie  52:05  

Yeah, true. 

 

Anton Fero  52:06  

You know, and one thing we’ve learned by experience, you talked about not hiring an assistant back in the day, I mean, I had the same problem at the gym early on, doing everything. And we have been way better. At the start of this. We already have hired people. Not only did we hire a brand designer, somebody’s doing all of our media, and it’s like, offsetting that stuff, so that we can focus on the stuff that really matters. And I’m like, Oh, my gosh, why is it taking me this long to figure that out?

 

Brett Bartholomew  52:33  

Ya know,

 

Andrew Leslie  52:34  

it’s not one without the other. Right? It’s not one without the other, I will say, 

 

Brett Bartholomew  52:38  

No. But I think that’s a huge point. I mean, I can just tell you from experience, a lot of our listeners relate to this, because we have so many of them in our coalition or you know, in by the time this is released will be in March, we have a whole workshop called Brand Builder, and one of the main points we’ll make is, the pain points the audience comes to us a lot with is, well, I don’t know how to design a website and how like trying to design it that’s going to take like $10,000 And do I do it, you know, via WordPress, or do I use Kajabi do and I’m like, Dude, you know, at the very least one. No, it doesn’t cost that to your website, you’re making this thing like it needs to be this virtual reality. Metaverse kind of experience, like at the very least, say Hi, I’m Andy, this is what I love you you’re like, I make shoes. It’s like gold member I love gold. But like, just introduce yourself, have a contact point. And, and boom, like, you don’t need to have 30 testimonials, you don’t need to have the best. 

 

I remember at one point early on, because the organizations I was with didn’t allow you to have your own brand and brand in our parlance is synonymous with reputation. Right, but I couldn’t have my own stuff. So I had to use stock imagery from like pixels, you know, and but it worked fine. Like you know, like, we help people solve some of their and so I’m just like somebody’s like, but I don’t have images and I don’t like this. I’m like, Dude, you’re so worried about your website and everything which you just literally need so people can find you because people can’t select what is not visible. They can’t book what is not bookable. But you’re so worried about that get to work. So I like that you state that you have to have both. If it is your skill set, Andy it sounds like it’s yours. Cool. lean into it. If you don’t like Anton said hire out for it. And also and shout out to Catholic HyperX she was giving us a physical therapist who’s getting engaged with other things the other day she goes how do you guys like my logo? And old me would have given her about 20 things to correct and I go Kesa it’s a great start run with it. You can change it later. Change it let’s get on to the next step. Is that talk to me 

 

Anton Fero  54:33  

Yeah, well here’s what’s interesting is Andy does come in with like a super OCD wanted to have all this stuff dialed in and I was like, this is fine. We’re in a different place in our lives, right? Like this is not our first go around and maybe, maybe we can step it up a notch. But I just want to remind anybody listening, when I started the gym in my garage, part of it was an experiment. We had no logo. We didn’t even have I mean we only figured out how to charge people. And I still didn’t even know what to charge, I created a sandwich board from this piece of like plywood, and I just wrote the name on it, put it on the street. And that’s what it was, we didn’t get a logo until we were forced to get one. And that was when we finally moved locations, after the city kicked us out of our garage, because we were doing it illegally. So that’s like how the business started. So I just want to remind people like, that was five years ago. And now we’re about to move into a million dollar facility. We didn’t know any of that it was all about getting people in the garage. And that’s the most important part when you start. It really is.

 

Brett Bartholomew  55:39  

Yeah, I appreciate that insight. Andrew, before I lock into the next thing, did you have anything you wanted to add?

 

Andrew Leslie  55:43  

I’m just gonna reiterate Right? Like know your audience who you’re trying to serve. That’s the principle of design thinking. So you got to ask yourself, before you start slapping branding and colors and tone, it’s really important. But to what degree depends on your audience, let example being if Anton and I want to go and work with a fortune 500, you better believe that branding? And testimonials probably will matter, right? Because you’re talking about higher ticket projects. But if we’re going out to help someone and not always, by the way, it depends, right? But I think in many cases, at least what we’re trying to do, yeah, you can go with that iterative kind of approach, right? Where you just get going test and learn. So yeah, just something I wanted to add, you know,

 

Brett Bartholomew  56:27  

ya no, another thing I remember when we were locking in this episode, and we had people submit questions is, we have a lot of people that they found kind of, they feel like they found their purpose. They know what they want to put out there. Maybe they’re past the point or so on the point we were just talking about regardless. But they feel weird about sales. And this is something I have to be like, cognizant of talking about on the podcast, in the sense that we’ve had a lot of these things of like trying, somebody did a nasty job brainwashing, a lot of coaches that sales is evil, that sales is this and sales is that like, it’s just, they did a nasty job of it. 

 

And i get it like that term doesn’t conjure a lot of great imagery, right. And we tend to associate because of negativity bias, we tend to associate like negative as it was sorry, we tend to remember our negative experiences more prominently. 

 

What I mean by this is your thing’s out there, you’re ready to go. But you’ve got to have to sell it. How do you guys feel about that process? Where have you grown? Were there ever times where you had a negative emotion towards this? How have you grown in terms of like not feeling gross, icky, whatever, about having to sell what you do?

 

Andrew Leslie  57:36  

So I’ll speak I think Anton is excellent at sales. And that’s why it’s complimentary. It’s something that makes me uncomfortable. So I’ve got to learn. But if I want to take away anything from the experience doing, it’s really just understanding what somebody wants and listening to them. And then trying to give them that we talk about it in coaching all the time, stop trying to over coach someone with everything, you know, and all this stuff that you want to impart wisdom and say, What do you want, and dinos point you want to pull up? Like, actually, you know, if I’m going to teach you, you probably don’t need a pull up right now. But if that’s what you want, let’s do it, because that’s gonna give you that confidence. And we’ll inject some of the other stuff through that journey together. So I think sales is about, you know, understanding what somebody wants. I want to pass that to Anton because a lot of experience there. 

 

Anton Fero  58:24  

Yeah, I mean, I think if, if I could sum it up in two words, it would just be help people, you know, help first. I think that probably the some of the best stuff written on this was by Chris Cooper, who runs to brain coaching. He has a book called help first, which is probably one of the simplest, best tools if somebody wanted to read something like this, but it’s just helping. I do a lot of sales and as I look back at my life, I mean, I was the guy selling Cutco knives. Anybody ever done Cutco? Somehow I was a high school kid and I was the best salesman on the in the whole region of the West Coast. And they invited me as a 17 year old to come to the seminar and talk about sales I never showed up, obviously. 

 

But even then I used to do this. I just played with a lot of tactics. Like I would even like, when I was selling Kengo back in the day, I would show up in like sweats and like I just got out of basketball practice kind of thing. And like, I’m going to college and I would just play with a lot of different tactics. And I think if people want to, first up I’d say help first, but also just be willing to be creative and experiment. I do think sales is probably the most important thing, so you better figure it out.

 

Brett Bartholomew  59:39  

Yeah, I mean, like, you know, go ahead, finish that thought sorry.

 

Anton Fero  59:43  

Figure, you figure it out. You cannot run a business without it.

 

Brett Bartholomew  59:47  

That like we always make the point to you can’t do it’s not even just a business because a lot of people don’t like well, well. I don’t really see myself as a business or whatever. I go listen, you sell yourself on a lot of things every day. Like I have to tell myself that I can be a competent father for My kid and my wife and I get in an argument I have to sell myself on. Okay, this can be resolved. And you know, like one thing that I know is always eye opening for our audience is I had a friend that was you know, very much locked into this martyrdom complex and y’all I don’t sell and all your big time now and I go, dude, horseshit, you’re always telling me about some new restaurant or some new movie, you’re always selling me on this place, you gotta go eat. And I go, the reality is, like you dissociate that from like something else. And that’s not you sell people every day. You know? 

 

All right. So let’s talk a couple more things. I have two more questions for you guys. 

 

Andrew Leslie  1:00:31  

Can add one thing to that bro

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:00:32  

No not at all. You’re my guest. And you just shut up. Absolutely. What’s up? Go ahead.

 

Andrew Leslie  1:00:37  

I just want to say it’s understanding where people aren’t, we’ve done that with blue house, we’re doing it with con where people are in their journey, and then what their capacity of time, resource, energy, money, etc, is. Because something mistake I made, right was what we offer this high ticket, multi $1,000, coaching sprint, and Anton and I start to actually talk with people we realize so little out of like, not only financial accessibility, but like, even just intensity might not be right for some of the people we want to help in the local community, for example, maybe it works for others, but we’re like, in the right sometimes you’d be stuck in your way and you go, No, that’s what we have, and then force it try to sell it down their throat, right? No, you should get this because it’s really the perfect thing for you. You know, and sometimes that might make sense. But I think what I’m learning through this process myself is give them what they want, find a way to make it work within reason with your business to so that’s why we started the collective, which is a way to have like, a monthly call, you know, we don’t need to go too deep, but that’s a little bit more accessible, right, and allows us to create something so we can give them a piece of that. Like Anton’s point, like, well, it’s done in two months or two years, you know?

 

Anton Fero  1:01:49  

Yeah. And we’ve brought on three people doing that in the last week. You know, and we’re like, oh, wow, this, 

 

Andrew Leslie  1:01:56  

we’re learning, right? We’re going, Oh, they’re thriving, they’re helping each other. It’s more accessible. It’s great. So it’s no, I love it.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:02:03  

Oh, that’s clear, to contextualize this next question. And it will give you an opportunity to kind of talk about your coaching calls or your process, but to contextualize it a little bit and to hedge it so you don’t feel too much pressure. I’m always very interested in terms of how both continuing education experiences and the world of coaching is going to evolve. Meaning that of course, today, there’s  in person face to face. There’s things that can be done over the phone, there’s how we’re connecting right now via zoom, there’s virtual, there’s streaming, there’s all these things. I’m always fascinated by that. Okay. I’m also fascinated that Because currently, like art of coaching, we operate out of our house and we go internationally, we travel, right we do in services, all these pieces, and a big part of any business or coaching organization or whatever anybody wants to frame it as is not only what do you do, but how do you deliver it? How do you make that experience exceptional and personal? And what mediums do you utilize? Right? So that’s kind of, and I understand that your answer just to hedge it now, so you don’t feel pressured? It’s gonna be contextual. So I’m not saying that you want like, the one way, 

 

but here’s my question. Alright. Let’s say I’ve read more about what you do. Right. Okay, Comn, I get it through your guys’s experiences, you understand the impact a coach and consultant with similar values can have on an individual or business in a community, I get that you guys strive to inspire and educate and connect a wide range of people that can make a positive difference for the common good. I’ve looked, I love it. I want to know more about Comn, I’m signed up. What does this experience look like? Because some people in our audience might think they’re either trying to shape their own experience, or maybe this form of coaching is very confusing to them. Like everything you guys say sounds great, but they’re intimidated by the process. What does it look like? If I sign up today? We just got off on a call and I’m signing I’m engaged with you guys. How do you deliver?

 

Andrew Leslie  1:04:00  

Anton you want to take this first?

 

Anton Fero  1:04:03  

Yeah, well, I mean, I could give you the example of a couple people that just joined the collective, which really just means a slower ongoing process, you know, yeah. And it’s cold driven. And so, you know, we’re trying to create different processes, depending on the intensity and speed that people want to go. Now, I also think something that’s interesting for us is that Andy has a lot of experience with brands. So I also think there’s a whole side of Comn that will be a little bit more about consulting for bigger brands. But some of the coaching that we’ve done is, I mean, you’re talking about using some type of software, where we can have ongoing input with them, you know, be it slack or whatever software we want to use, and then just trying to have one monthly meeting, where it’s going to be very action oriented. And we will just have that as the kind of predictable pattern that will drive our actions throughout the month and Just keep it really simple. And, you know, we’ve already been doing this with a few and we’ve seen it be really effective. I think we’ve tried to do more. And just realizing that pace can be really overwhelming for some, and we end up getting people aren’t doing what we want them to do, and they can’t keep up. And so, you know, we’ve been playing with pace. And I think that’s been really big. But again, it’s accountability. It’s, I mean, it’s all the things that we were talking about. But that’s the simple process.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:05:29  

I like just before Andrew, you, discuss anything, I like what you said about PACE, I think that in the past, I had made that mistake where I was so concerned with making sure I delivered value because I was honored with somebody investing in us that I was like, Alright, I’m going to over deliver over deliver. And I would often just go because I’d be so concerned that they’d get off that call or that interaction and be like, ah, you know, because when you take people that can already be risk averse in their heads, not everybody has healthy attitudes towards money, you want them to see that ROI. But sometimes it could backfire. I gave them too much. And then they were like, Dude, I don’t think I can do this. I don’t think and I’m like, no, no, no, I’m so sorry. Like, you can just start with one thing. So sorry, I just tried to help you. And I want to give you everything, and I’m so sorry. But I mean, that’s the fun of it, you constantly grow as a coach in that regard. Andrew, anything there?

 

Andrew Leslie  1:06:17  

Oh, we just had that exact experience an hour ago, I came off and Anton’s like, I think we gave them way too much, you know, and we’re like, let’s clean up, let’s you know, we’ll slack over some key takeaways. So totally understand. I mean, look, I think the process we follow, if we’re being specific is, try it out. Try to help them know themselves know, their business set goals. First phase, second phase know, who they serve, right? Seek the why that’s so important. So like, don’t just articulate your demographic you’re serving? What is the problem? Why do they have that keep asking why meet real people, don’t just make this fake assumption of who you’re serving, make sure you know them, you can put a name to them, and start to define that opportunity. Create new ideas around that. So this is where like productivity is really important, encouraging creativity, and there’s tactics to do that with brainstorming, and so forth. You know, getting out and meeting different people different perspectives, we got to look at that point into like bias and belief systems and make sure we’re understanding that, 

 

then we get into prototyping, not enough people spend time there, right, so iterating. So really thinking about how we can make versions quick, low fidelity versions of this idea, right, whatever that might be that our business is, make tests, learn, repeat as many times as we can, we can make it better before we decide to throw it into the marketplace. And then it’s that last stage, right, like getting a business plan, and getting the needed support, making sure that financially things are set and taking the leap. And I know that’s a lot. But that’s kind of how we’ve taken design thinking and applied it to, you know, developing an idea for a business, be it honestly, it could be intrapreneurship within a business, a corporate business or fortune 500 Or it could be a small business, it doesn’t really matter. The cool thing is it’s really pliable. And I think what we’re playing around with now is how can we do less just teaching competence and more using that experience to build character? And secondly, the intensity, right? So I think we were trying to compress it, what would it look like? We’ve been talking, everybody’s doing these in a day website in a day, get better in a day. I think that works for some, some people, it’s 10 weeks, some people it’s, you know, five years. So we’re trying to understand the intensity and how we can kind of help people at different points in the journey. But the, you know, it doesn’t the process for us doesn’t really change. We’re kind of building around that. If that helps to explain,

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:08:48  

I think that both of you gave I mean, if that’s not if somebody can’t take something concrete off of what both of you said there, I think that we need to discuss the difference between listening and hearing. So I think that’s locked in. 

 

All right, I want to do something and we haven’t done this for a while now. But it’s been too fun giving you guys a hard time. So we’re going to we’re gonna do a hot seat round, you know, but before we do the Hot Seat round, I’m actually gonna go back on something I told you, but just in case people tune out, they’re like, I don’t want to hear it. Where right now can people go and we’ll link it so don’t worry about like spelling it. Where can people go right now to get involved with you guys support you guys. lock into everything you do. And then we’ll go into the hotseat round but plug everything right now. plug out we’re

 

Andrew Leslie  1:09:30  

Yeah, Instagram. we’re trying our seven second videos on Tik Tok. We got about five followers so appreciate some love there. Instagram, Tik Tok LinkedIn. You know, we’re on all the usual channels. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:09:43  

What about the website just talked to all this time about this website, you design there’s no website site

 

Andrew Leslie  1:09:48  

www.comncollective.com You know, @comncollective across all those social channels. Hit us up. We’d love to have a conversation. Share your ideas with us. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:09:57  

Perfect. All right, you ready for a hot seat? some of the some of these are soft polls. Some of these are gonna you’re gonna be like, oh shit, I might get cancelled. All right, but you both have to answer the first few so there’s no, you can’t be like, I’m not going to do that so we’re gonna start with Andrew first. These are soft balls, right? 

 

Favorite medium to communicate meaning are you an email guy face to face guy and don’t worry about well it depends on the circumstance we get that. But if all things being equal, like What’s your preferred medium to communicate with?

 

Andrew Leslie  1:10:29  

Preferred in person, but reality is PowerPoint. I’m a PowerPoint wizard spend my life on that that’s what fortune 500 teaches you that way for good or for bad. As a result, more often than not these days. I like getting together with people in person. Yeah, love it. Perfect. Answer, Anton.

 

Anton Fero  1:10:47  

The stage Come on, I did theater forever I want to be and I want to just perform.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:10:55  

I refused. By the way, actually, I’m not going to release this episode until you guys get to one of our workshops which by and large leverage a lot of improv and role playing. And so that’s the reciprocity trade off here. Right. We’ll get you on the podcast swing frame for ramble below. We’ll get your stuff out to everybody. But both of you better come to a workshop 

 

and Andrew, you’ve been on the hook for a while John told you about it. So I don’t wanna hear your bullshit excuses. All right, we got to go. Yeah, to your 100% All right. Andrew, aspect of communication you struggle with most so for example, just so I’m not opaque. I know when my wife is always talking about his assertiveness. What’s something for you?

 

Andrew Leslie  1:11:29  

Easy. Simplicity. I will not say any more because I’m desperate to know more as to why and then I’ll confuse it. Simplicity,

 

Anton Fero  1:11:38  

simplicity, Anton. Empathy. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:11:40  

Oh, get off your acid. Just get it done. I don’t have any most misunderstood villain. Anton. We’ll start with you most misunderstood villain.

 

Anton Fero  1:11:52  

Oh my gosh.

 

Andrew Leslie  1:11:56  

yourself Anton

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:11:59  

I’m not allowing that.

 

Anton Fero  1:12:00  

Myself. Yeah, I villain more lately.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:12:06  

Come on. Anton. This is horseshit. You can go with like Jafar, you could go with the Joker, you could go with I don’t know. Like, there’s so many villains choose a villain. Thanos How do you feel about Thanos?

 

Anton Fero  1:12:27  

will go with Superman.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:12:30  

He’s not a villain, Anton. Alright, Anton’s lost, Andrew most misunderstood villain.

 

Andrew Leslie  1:12:36  

Oh, that’s a good one. I don’t know. I’m gonna go with like Elon Musk. I think why I don’t know why that comes to mind. Is because, yeah, a lot of people though. See him as a villain. More people think about like the heads of all these big fortune 500 school or like, Oh, that guy hates us. They want to blah, blah, blah. You know? Okay. They’re trying to do some good, but it’s tough in business.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:13:01  

All right, then I’m giving you another hard one. A topic in society you don’t think gets discussed enough?

 

Andrew Leslie  1:13:11  

I think  creating impact, that’s a little bit of a fluffy answer. But you know, want to click into it. I think it’s like, understanding how the, you know, the good that you’re trying to do with the business that you’re creating. Right. I think that’s really important. People don’t discuss that right? Just scroll through Instagram right now. Go do it. And all you see is, do you want to get to six figures, seven figures and X weeks? Right? Like no, I actually don’t know if that’s what I want. You want people to question? Now. What difference do you want to make? What’s your call it Yeah, so I think that I’d love to see that discussed more.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:13:47  

Love it, Anton.

 

Anton Fero  1:13:50  

Think education 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:13:52  

in what meaning 

 

Anton Fero  1:13:53  

Meaning like, a lot of it needs to change. And I don’t think enough people are talking about it. I think in 20 years, education will look super different.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:14:04  

I couldn’t agree more. All right. This one’s an easy one. And then you got two more. Andrew, I need you we got a lot of Australian friends. A lot of them and they hate No, they hate when Americans try to do an Australian accent. Now I know you’re not American. But I need you to say Good day mate. Would you like to get something to eat and your best Australian accent?

 

Anton Fero  1:14:26  

Oh my god. You Yeah. Goodday mate we like to get something to eat.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:14:31  

Okay. All right. That’s a solid one. Yeah. Well, we’ll ask our we’ll do a poll. Anton. Go ahead. Come on and

 

Anton Fero  1:14:42  

performer today. Good day, man. Would you like something to eat?

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:14:45  

Oh my god, it sounded like he was constipated and in the UK looking for the little. That sounded like alright. That’s the awkwardness of it. That’s the best part of it. All right. One of the most overrated pieces of advice and don’t worry, it doesn’t have to be the most just one of the most overrated pieces of advice you’ve gotten in anything health, fitness career, whatever. Something that you think no, no, no, no, this isn’t as advertised.

 

Andrew Leslie  1:15:18  

who Is that for oh,

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:15:19  

sorry, Anton will go in time because he went on the villain when I’m still angry.

 

Anton Fero  1:15:24  

I know I’m sorry about that one. I’m thinking about some Yeah, I think there’s some bad advice around. You know, people valuing like people saying, like, I’m thinking of training, like people saying volume, as more important than intensity. You know, like, more is better, more, more, more, more, more. I feel like I there’s something in that, that I feel like I’m hearing a lot instead of, can I it’s like the opposite of consistency. I don’t think we value consistency as like a really as like, some of the best, you know, yeah, I don’t know if that means.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:16:13  

That’s all right. I got you. flustered. That’s my job. it makes you likable. People are gonna want to reach out to me like, Hey, dude, you blew it on the podcast. Let me support your business. It all works. I see what you’re doing. I see what you’re doing. And I appreciate it. I’m just messing with you. Dude, Andrew.

 

Andrew Leslie  1:16:30  

My signal crashed. So I feel like I missed a really good bit of this podcast and

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:16:34  

one of them one of the most overrated pieces of overrated.

 

Andrew Leslie  1:16:37  

Overrated. Me. Yeah. Like great advice. That’s Oh, no, overrated? Overrated?

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:16:43  

Overrated, not underrated. Andrew. 

 

Andrew Leslie  1:16:46  

Like over played? Like everybody’s telling, like you to do it, 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:16:49  

for when somebody’s like, oh, like find your passion, right? That’s, I mean, some people, they would just have glue and play video games, their

 

Andrew Leslie  1:16:55  

purpose, right? Everybody’s like playing out like, what’s your purpose? Gen Z loves to buy brands based on purpose, your brand won’t succeed if you don’t know your purpose. That’s great. So it’s overplayed. Right? What does that actually mean? Like, how do you figure it out? Yes, tactics that you can do it right. As we talked about briefly earlier, but I’m kind of tired of hearing that like I get it.  But tell me what your tell me what your purpose is. Give me an example. So you know,

 

Anton Fero  1:17:21  

what do you think? Overrated?

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:17:23  

I think what’s overrated one, and I love that you asked that because we’re massively. We’re huge on just anti one size fits all answers. So I’ll do one that I know was definitely overrated, and strength and conditioning was, oh, just, you know, get, your degree, get certified and get an internship. And like that was the best career advice people were often given, which was absolute, not only horse crap, but it was damaging, because people didn’t realize that it was such an oversaturated field. And that like, then you would get people that took restricted earnings positions for $20,000 a year for like five years in hopes of getting like the head roll out an Alabama or an Iowa. So I thought that was ridiculous. I gave Andrew one right. Like, people just follow your passion, right, like following your passion. And I think he’s super opaque. If you want to do another one that like I think is super overrated, and I’ll take it a different way. I think the whole like eight hours of sleep, I think the whole way we approach sleep is a little overrated in the sense that, you know, everybody’s gonna everybody needs something different. And the way that we sleep now in these like cocoons in these rooms, of like, we have to get this unbroken seven to eight hours of sleep. That’s not how we slept at any other point in time in history, right? We didn’t seclude ourselves from stimulus. And there’s new research that shows that, yes, obviously, sleep is hugely important. But it is overrated. And it’s actually not natural in terms of this stigma that if somebody kind of wakes up a bunch in the night, or if they wake up not fully rested with their biometrics, I mean, we would have athletes that they would get told take it easy today don’t do this today, and they felt great. So I think data needs to be on top but or it can be on top and never on top. And if anything gets made people feel like they’re broken and they need to be fixed, which I think is crap. I think you’ve got to do what fits well with your lifestyle. 

 

Not so there’s three this last one’s a real barnburner and I’m going to admit I looked up awkward questions for this one. And I have to say that because people are going to be like your own word there were some come from all right. Ariel, Jasmine, or Jessica Rabbit don’t worry we’re not going to do the Mary one kill one kind of thing. Just who are you going? Who you choose and who’s your main 

 

Andrew Leslie  1:19:32  

Ariel? Ariel get me underwater men Yeah, we live above water we ocean most unexplored place

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:19:38  

It’s a dark place and I love it. 

 

Anton Fero  1:19:44  

Jasmine 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:19:45  

and please do tell why.

 

Anton Fero  1:19:50  

Exotic

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:19:51  

Oh, gotta Anton we need to have you back on and we got to go into some of these dark rabbit holes of your mind and talk training. I think there’s a lot of things we could do here when there’s a common podcast. Can I come on? Can we get weird? 

 

Anton Fero  1:20:04  

Oh, yeah. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:20:05  

Good. Yeah, I love it. All right, should

 

Anton Fero  1:20:07  

we start a podcast? Does there need to be another one

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:20:10  

there? Most people should not start a podcast. If you can do so thoughtfully. You should start a podcast. But I would say what are they? The other day 2000 As of 2019, there were 500,000 podcasters as of 2021 5 million, this is per CNBC. And I think Nielsen SoundScan. It is projected by 2025 that there will be 50 million podcasts. Which reminds me if this podcast has been valuable, hit it with a review in iTunes because otherwise the Rogan’s and everybody else swallow us whole with their nuanced algorithms.

 

 Listen, you guys have been awesome sports, everybody listening, everything that you’ve heard is going to be linked in the bio, it’s on the website. There’s no excuse. These people have given you more than an hour of their time. They’re giving you information that has taken them a lifetime up to this point to learn. And nobody wants to like take advantage of you or hurt you guys, so call them say how can I help you get to know Him? If nothing else, just check out what they’re doing. Andrew and Anton I can’t thank you enough for just being good sports and playing along with the hard positions I put you in.

 

Anton Fero  1:21:12  

Thank you, Darth Vader to feel better now.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:21:17  

I love you guys for Andrew Leslie Anton Faro, the art of coaching podcast. What more do you want from these two beautiful people. I appreciate it and we will talk soon.