E193 | What To Charge For Your Time & Expertise: A Deep Dive

The prospect of assigning a dollar amount to your time can evoke feelings of frustration, guilt, confusion and imposter phenomenon. 

And yet, whether you’re salaried, hourly or a business owner / entrepreneur, it’s essential to know what your time is worth. Not only will this calculation help you to decide between opportunities, it’ll allow you to communicate your value and build a healthy relationship with money. 

Today’s episode will be a deep dive into how to confidently communicate what you’re worth, decide what to charge and how to not feel guilty doing so. We’ll discuss tactical strategies for understanding what variables should go into your decision as well as:

• Two different strategies for calculating what your time is worth
• Why it doesn’t matter what you charge so long as you OVER-deliver
• How to train yourself out of poor habits / unhealthy relationships with money
• How to know when and what to give away for free

If exercises like this are helpful, you’ll get tremendous value from our Build Your Brand Workshop. We aren’t afraid to charge for this 2-day intensive workshop because the information shared and the value you’ll gain from networking and learning how to apply these principles to your business will be incomparable. 

This is one you WON’T want to miss- artofcoaching.com/brand.

Today’s episode is brought to you by our incredible sponsors:

1. VersaClimber: Our favorite low-impact, efficient cardiovascular strength workout! – Tell them Brett and Art of Coaching sent you!
2. SAGA: The best wireless, bluetooth enabled BFR cuffs – COACHBRETT20 = 20% off 

Connect out our co-co-host Jake Swart:

Via Instagram: @docjakeswart

Via his website: https://www.athletespotential.com/

Via his podcast: The Active Atlanta Podcast

Brett Bartholomew  00:13

I feel guilty charging people for my time. I don’t even know what to charge if I did. These are things that people say all the time. And it’s not something to be made fun of. It’s not something that is a stupid problem. These are totally rational things to struggle with. Because not all of us have this kind of background. And because sometimes we have imposter phenomenon or because maybe we didn’t have somebody teach us. That is what today’s episode is all about. So if you’ve had a different attitude towards money, and you’re somebody that wants to make a difference, but you just you know, the economics of it is uncomfortable and you hate having those discussions. Or maybe you’re on the outside looking in, and you’re wondering why people charge what they do for certain things. This is the ultimate episode to listen to. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  00:53

And I promise guys like, I there are certain areas where I’m really confident about things and I’m not gonna apologize, there are times where I’m very humble. And because I’ve been humbled many times, I don’t think that this is overblown, yet, when I say in my opinion, this is the best episode, you could listen to hands down, regardless of industry about this stuff. And I know because I had listened to so many episodes, I tried no fewer than 100 to try to figure out how to answer this question for myself. And a lot of them just kind of beat around the bush or they acted like they were some kind of algorithm and formula. This covers everything from the psychology of why we struggle with those issues to how I navigated it, somebody that’s now had to get a lot more comfortable with this for more than a decade to how my colleague Ali Kirschner, has navigated it. Somebody that is very successful in one field, but is now having to learn how to charge for her time. And what we’re doing now. And a close friend of mine, Dr. Jacobs swart, who has been established in his field as a physical therapist, and one of the best in my opinion, has navigated it in another service bass field. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  01:49

So we’ve tried to cover this from as many angles as possible. Jake is a special guest, he came over, we are talking about these things. We said, Hey, let’s do an ad hoc episode, we will do a full episode with him. In the meantime, enjoy this. And please, I’m going to tell you this, download the reflection sheet because there are too many points I don’t want you to miss. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  02:08

Go to artofcoaching.com/podcastreflections. Listen in, you’re going to love what Jake has to say you’re going to love what Ali has to say. And hopefully I’m able to convince you to get out of your own head a little bit and out of your own way. All right. Without further ado, let’s lock and load.

 

Brett Bartholomew  02:35

Welcome to the Art of coaching podcast, a show aimed at getting to the core of what it takes to change attitudes, behaviors and outcomes in the weight room, boardroom classroom and everywhere in between. I’m your host, Brett Bartholomew. I’m a performance coach, keynote speaker, and the author of the book conscious coaching. But most importantly, I’m a lifelong student interested in all aspects of human behavior, and communication. I want to thank you for joining me. And now let’s dive into today’s episode. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  03:05

Hey, everybody, you are not just joining me on this episode, you are joining my friends, Jake Swart. And Ali as well Jake, say hello. Hey, what’s up everyone? Ali, say hello.

 

Ali Kershner  03:15

What’s up guys,

 

Brett Bartholomew  03:15

guys, today, we are going to talk about something that a lot of you have asked this about for a long time, regardless of the field that you’re in. And that is how do I charge for my time? How do I not feel guilty about charging my time? What should I charge for my time? How do I figure out what to charge for my time and not feel guilty about charging for my time, all of the above. And this episode is gonna get tactical and cover this from a lot of different angles. Also, if you’re somebody that’s more hands on, you want to apply it you want to workshop this, we have that coming up, we have an event that we are hosting in Atlanta, Georgia, march 19, and 20th 2022. That is all about how to build whatever you want to call it, whether it’s your brand, your reputation, your service, anything that you’re trying to do to provide impact to people clarify your target audience and do more with what you have. And we hope to see you there. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  04:05

So if you want that you want to work with peers to figure out everything from Should I design a website? Who is my audience? How do I sell this thing? What if I don’t like the idea of selling this and whatever issue you have, just go to artofcoaching.com/brandbuilder artofcoaching.com/brandbuilder, it’s going to walk you through it A to Zed and we’re gonna have people from a lot of different industries there. We’re only accepting 50 people it might even be less than that. We’re still kind of debating when we’re going to close that off. spots are limited. Check it out. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  04:38

Now also big thank you to our sponsors. always appreciative of Versa climber Versa climber is one of the most efficient energy system tools that I use. What that means for non nerds in the strength and conditioning or performance field is if you want to fast workout if you don’t want your body to feel like trash. If you want something that is going to get your heart rate up, but it really doesn’t matter if you’re a 20 year old athlete or 80 years old and just trying to kind of get moving again, make sure to check them out at versa climber.com. Of course, our friends at Momentous. Again, these are people that create supplements for those of us that just want to live a more fulfilling life. That’s great if you’re an athlete, but you don’t have to be you can be somebody that just needs access to better stuff on the road, or somebody that has some joint pain or maybe can’t sleep, they have been a tremendous resource for us. Everything is tested at the highest quality and highest standard, check them out at live momentous.com. And you can use our code in the show notes to get a discount and also saga fitness, the creators of the first Bluetooth wireless blood flow occlusion training device. Again, for you non nerds out there. Everything is about efficiency. So whether you’re coming back from injury, whether you’re trying to get stronger, whether you’re trying to just You’re like my mother, who my mother is going to be 71 this year, she only strength trains twice a week, she doesn’t want to use a lot of heavy weights simply because she doesn’t have a personal trainer or somebody makes sure she’s doing it right. She can use these cuffs to get more out of her workout even if she is using lighter weights. So you will go to saga.fitness for more. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  04:38

All right, it’s a lot. It is a lot. We got that out of the way though. I also want to who else? What products actually before we get into this? Do you guys like people that haven’t paid us, but you just want to give them a nod? Because they’re good people?

 

Jake  06:22

Yeah, you know, we use the Delphi blood flow restriction training cuffs all the time at our center. So I think that it’s great that you’re using Saga fitness, any style, any style of blood flow restraint is gonna be great for all the things that you just mentioned as well. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  06:33

Yeah, but Saga is better, because they sponsor us.

 

Jake  06:35

Saga is better because they sponsor you but also that it is legit that they’re Bluetooth. That’s that’s a huge leg up that they’ve got on some of the other competition out there 

 

Brett Bartholomew  06:41

can take it in. And that’s the thing. If you’re an executive that wants to take it in your briefcase, you can take it with you, Ali, what are you liking?

 

Ali Kershner  06:50

You know, I’m really liking this new energy drink. I don’t know if anybody’s heard of it’s called Monster. And if they want to sponsor the podcast, that would be really cool. I’d particularly like the white kind of monster. So yeah, shout out to them.

 

Jake  07:04

I’m there with you. The one was my favorite.

 

Brett Bartholomew  07:06

The white ones are your favorite. Yeah. Samurai blue. Absolute Zero guy. 

 

Jake  07:10

Oh, are you really? Yeah, I think so. It sounds like we all like to absolute zero type. But which one do you like the most?

 

Brett Bartholomew  07:15

Um, yeah, just the blue one, you know? And then I always get the blue. Yeah,

 

Ali Kershner  07:19

yeah, like black and blue.

 

Brett Bartholomew  07:21

You’ll get the people that are like, Hey, man, I thought you were health guy. And I’m like, Hey, we all have vices, you know, for sure. We all but I also want to give a shout out to this company, even though they have never paid us and it’s called like, G um, right. I used to use packers like the dual. The whole packers like mint thing because I’m getting stuff in my teeth. For sure. Especially when you travel, it gets weird. But these like gum soft picks are the only thing you should use.

 

Jake  07:45

Oh, for sure, man. And so I just have braces. I use these things all the time. Because they you could get like in between your braces really easily to way easier than using just regular dental floss.

 

Brett Bartholomew  07:54

I can imagine with braces. Oh, man, this is the worst ally. Are you ready to kick this off?

 

Ali Kershner  07:59

Um, yeah, I’m actually very excited about this one.

 

Brett Bartholomew  08:03

All right, well, let’s get into the origin of it. Because one of the issues I had is I used to be a curmudgeon and feel like when I just had a salary job, and I was doing one particular job. You know, I never really worried about this stuff. What we’re going to talk about today, I got paid when I got paid, I was grateful to get the experience that I did, especially earlier in your career. As you start to advance in your career, however, you start realizing like different opportunities start coming to you. And even if they haven’t yet, you realize there’s an opportunity to help way more people. And I remember I was working for an organization and I started getting asked, asked to speak a bit more. And the organization I’d worked for at the time was like, Hey, you can’t really do that. And I’m like, Well, this is weird. I got into coaching, tell people from all walks of life, yet I’m limited in how I can do that right now. Like there wasn’t even a revenue split or this and that. And so it all goes back to a story that I’ve told before. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  08:54

Eventually, when I left that company, and conscious coaching, my book came out. Somebody had said, Hey, I’d like you to come speak. What would you charge for a weekend? And Ali? I had like no idea. And Jake, you’ll laugh at this. And so I was like $800 and the dude started laughing. His name is Michael Rafone, he starts laughing and he goes, Do you have a family? I go, Well, I hope to have one someday, you know, like, I’m, I’m engaged. I think I was engaged at the time. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  09:21

And he said, you’re gonna realize real soon that if you don’t get serious on the value put to your time that you’re gonna have a lot of explaining to do to your wife and your kids someday. And he says, I refuse to pay you less than $2,000 to come out for the weekend. And he goes and I’ve seen your work before. We’ve overpaid people that didn’t deliver half the value. So I refuse to pay you anything and I adjust that was new to me, which is silly because my dad’s a financial advisor right but like this idea that this guy actually wanted to pay me more Euro I was just always used to being like, hey, you know, would you do this for free as a favor? Would you do this for 50 bucks would you do Do this for 100. I mean, even one of the largest governing bodies in performance will barely pay for, you know, a hotel room and it will pay 250 bucks. Yeah, yeah. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  10:09

And I had a friend who was a bonafide author, that’s like, dude, if you’re not getting paid like 10 to 12 grand, he’s like, that’s, that’s the bottom line in my field. And I started reaching out, I’m like, Oh, my God, all these other professions, you know, get paid all this and here I was ready to give 16 to 20 hours of my time. Yeah, for like, 800. But for for 800. But I just didn’t understand the economics. And so that was, that’s really the basis of when I started to learn more, but then when you raise your prices, some people fall back. And so we want to help people that are in those, those situations, do you guys have any stories of your own that the audience can relate to? 

 

Jake  10:42

Yeah, you know, like, so I run a physical therapy practice that we’re all cash based. So we don’t accept insurance, people have to pay directly out of their wallet to come and work with us. And when I first started working with this company, as a staff, PT, like, that was a very new phenomenon for me. So to ask somebody to pay, you know, anywhere from $200, to $2,000, to come and work with me was new and unique. And a little bit of had to kind of get a little bit of a background. Because just because like, you don’t know what your value is, until you establish it. And you don’t know what you don’t know what people are willing to pay until you ask, right. But what’s nice is like there are experts out there, there are people that you can lean on to kind of help you establish that and kind of grow your credibility a little bit to

 

Brett Bartholomew  11:23

Agreed, Ali?

 

Ali Kershner  11:25

Yeah. And meanwhile, I feel like I’m sort of in where you were Brett, where I’m still trying to figure out what I should charge for my time, especially because I’ve taken on a new role. I am younger, in the profession, I just jumped into a slightly different version of that profession. And I’ve been paid everything from what you’re talking about. within the same year, I’ve been paid $200 for an hour of my time. I’ve also been paid $3,000 for an hour of my time. And so it’s like, I just I guess I’m a little bit still confused and trying to navigate those waters. So I’m hoping that this can help me as well,

 

Brett Bartholomew  11:56

when it makes sense why you’d be confused, because I want to say this clearly, like on one end of it. You know, I started getting disenchanted with with certain things in strength and conditioning when I realized, hey, if you if you’re gonna keep people paying people bargain basement prices, just because and we talked about this in an episode called the weaponization of guilt, some people will try to just like not pay you much, because they’re like, Oh, it’ll help your brand. It’ll help your credibility. But generally, what you would see, as you’d see just a low quality speaker, you would see people and not always right, because there’s people that, you know, I’m sure if we talked to massive corporations, they bought people in for 50 $60,000. That didn’t give great stuff, either. So that’s relative, right? Which is why it can be confusing. That said, there are trends, there are trends, if you’re not willing to pay people, you know, for their time, and you’re just going to keep kind of saying, well, you should do it because it’s good for your brand, or we’re buddies or what have you. I mean, you have to take a look at other aspects of your life. And you have to take a look at other aspects of like, what what are you expecting for that, right? Like, I know, beyond a point if I if I want to if I’m always like, Hey, who’s the cheapest mechanic? Should I be surprised? When Yeah, maybe their initial labor is really good, but it doesn’t last long. If I say what’s, what’s the cheapest desk I could buy? Why would I pay $1,500 for that when I could do this at IKEA? Great, but then how long is that going to last? But then it got frustrating? Because you would always have people in strength and conditioning that would be like, Well, yeah, but I have IKEA that lasts forever. Good for you. Like you’re not you’re not you’re not understanding the point. So it makes sense to be confused about it. We’re going to talk about how to be less confused about anything else before we dive in.

 

Jake  13:25

I mean, I’m sure we’ll dive into this a little bit more. But I mean, like the whole idea of price psychology is a really, I mean, that’s exactly what you’re hitting on at that last comment where I mean, a great example of that would be my buddy, he got a nice promotion at work. So took over a bottle of tequila to help celebrate and bought a nicer bottle of tequila. Now, I don’t know anything about tequila, but the whole idea of like, oh, this is a more expensive tequila and must be a nicer tequila and must be in a good way to celebrate a moment. The whole price psychology, it could be the exact same thing, but because I paid more it tasted better too.

 

Brett Bartholomew  13:52

Yep. 100% with that, and so I want to hit objections early for those of you that are like, hey, you know, if you’re if you’re worried about money, you’re not in the right field. Hey, if you’re the cut that out, right, like that is such that’s like me going to a restaurant down the street and saying, Hey, if you’re really in it for the right reasons, you wouldn’t charge me for what I’m about to order. Or hey, if I go to the dry cleaner, if you guys really wanted me to look my best and I have a job that is gonna help a lot of people you wouldn’t charge me or hey, I’d like to buy a dog. And guess what if you were really serious about this dog being rescued, you wouldn’t charge like that is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. And I’ll double down on that. So guilt mongers, all those people get out of here. No reason for it. For those of you that actually believe in economics, which is how the world turns, and you also value yourself but maybe you’re just confused. Keep listening. So let’s dive into this. We’ve talked about how this is for people that have zero idea what to charge maybe you fear rejection, you feel guilt, all those things like we want to guide you on a what what is my time and expertise worth? Now let’s talk about the real issue. The real issue from a psychology standpoint is a lot of people want a magic formula they want to know If If blank blank equals blank, how can I do that? And that makes sense to a degree, if you maybe are in manufacturing, right? Or I know like we had a handyman come out to the house, there’s a certain job to be done. There’s the average time that that’s going to take him, right. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  15:14

There’s economics of, hey, what are other hand folks in this profession charging? How far am I going to have to travel so they can look at gas, labor, utilities and comp, right, and that, and that’s what people are going to have to do. But, you know, the main thing is, you shouldn’t feel guilt at the base level of charging for your time. Because whether you feel like you’re not qualified enough, or that you’re a fraud, or you feel like it’s going to make relationships awkward, or you think asking for money is unethical because of your own beliefs around money. I just asked you to look at areas where obviously, you prove that to be untrue. I don’t look at the family owned dentistry down the street and think he’s unethical, because they have to raise their prices as labor increases and what have you, I don’t look at that the people that are cutting hair and think, okay, like, this is gonna make it awkward if they, if you provide a service or you do somebody a favor, it is perfectly acceptable and normal, it happens all around the world. Like it’s how our financial systems in any country survive. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  16:07

It is okay to ask for money. Yeah, 100%, it’s not okay to ask for money. If you’re screwing people over, it’s not okay to ask for money. If you put no work into it, it’s not okay to ask for money. If you’re just mailing it in, then you’re just being lazy. But I almost just say this, guys, because I don’t want to spend too much time on that. Because there’s only so much like kind of the therapy route, you can go down like, don’t feel awkward. Don’t feel weird, because that’s how the world works. And if somebody’s like, Hey, I, you know, if somebody does me a favor, I am totally happy to pay them for that. Because that’s a sign of respect. From me to you. Now, if you want to do me a favor occasionally like, Jake, we’re friends, right? You obviously helped me through my shoulder surgery and what have you. Yeah, but do I give value to you in other ways?

 

Jake  16:46

Absolutely. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  16:47

What ways? 

 

Jake  16:48

I mean, so friendship is one, career advice and other like, just companionship is another and then I mean, there’s all different kinds of routes that you can put value on a situation without being monetary as well. You’ve helped me out with training, you’ve helped me with other aspects. So in a speaker, that was nice, yeah.

 

Brett Bartholomew  17:05

Guess what? I paid for that. And I did not say hey, Sonos, you should feel really bad about charging me for that I could give you value for sure. Right? So you’re worth it. I think some people just need to hear that, right? You’re worth it. Like your Ali, for example, you’re in a position now where you work with art of coaching. And you’ve studied hard, you’ve worked hard, you continue to learn our material, right? And so like, even when you were just saying, Hey, I’m getting started out here, right? Like I’m getting started out where people want to consult with you now they want you to come speak, talk to the audience about some of the concerns you had, because you knew what I priced my time at. And now you’re trying to figure out yours. 

 

Ali Kershner  17:43

Yeah, man, it was exactly that. Right. So I, I had you sort of as a an example. And I know that you know, roughly what you charge for your time, because that’s something that we talk about, you know, in terms of just the economics of our company. And so, you know, I think about myself and the years that I’ve put in, and in particular, related to the stuff that we’re doing now for Art of Coaching. And so, it was, it was an interesting thought experiment that we actually did in our last staff meeting to decide, okay, if Brett charges roughly this for his time, you know, where does that put me in terms of what I can charge for my time. And I think one of the most helpful things that you told me was that regardless of what I choose, over deliver, because I know, only I know what I’m providing in terms of value, so I can feel really confident charging, whether it’s $150 an hour, or it’s $5,000 an hour, knowing confidently that I will provide more value than $5,000, if that’s what I choose to price myself out, because, because that’s just the way that we operate. And I know that not everybody thinks that way. But I think if you start from that assumption is like, whatever it is, I charge, I trust myself. And I think that’s the key to over deliver, in terms of the time I’m going to spend on the front end, the time I’m going to spend researching this person or this organization that I’m helping, and it will absolutely without a doubt be worth it. And then if it’s not, you know what be okay with them. Just say, Look, if it’s not worth your time, I’ll refund you.

 

Brett Bartholomew  19:15

Yeah, 100%. Jake, anything to add on that?

 

Jake  19:17

Yeah, no, I think you’re spot on with that. Like, I think the first time I heard something along those lines was from Taylor Stewart actually, he said to you know, smack people in the face with value. And as long as you’re doing that you can charge whatever you want at some to some degree, right? Because you know, you’re over delivering on that. And I feel like and you can feel comfortable knowing that you’re charging what you’re charging because you’re delivering on the value side of things.

 

Brett Bartholomew  19:36

Yeah. And that’s where I you know, I want to give the audience a little bit of acknowledgement here, right, like so if those of you for those of you that do want, like the easy answer, and this isn’t going to work for every industry is if you approach what do I charge for my time, just purely from a dollars and cents economics standpoint, right. You heard Ali talked about how she’s trying to figure out what she charges. I can talk to you about how I figured out what I charge and what have you but just think of This way, 

 

Brett Bartholomew  20:00

First, consider what you need to like live or run your business. Like, what do you need to live? What do you need to? And even if you’re like, Well, I’m gonna look because I know a lot of our listeners, right? They’re pretty low maintenance, and that’s awesome. Like they’re not complainers. And well, they’re not complainers. In some aspects. We all complain about some things, but what do you need to live or run your business? I always talked about a time where, you know, I had, I’d gotten paid about $10,000 for a speaking event. And there’s always kind of that ignorant comment. And it’s not always poorly intentioned, it’s just they don’t know what they don’t know, say, Man, you must be killing it. And I would have thought that too, by the way, you know what I mean? What they don’t know is that you know, every pay period, I’ll have to pay anywhere from five to $7,000, just with where our company is right now. In taxes. So there’s what I pay hourly, right? We all get paid twice a month, there’s what I pay Ali twice a month, Liz twice a month me contractors, what have you. But then there’s also just taxes, there’s payroll tax. So $7,000 gets eaten up five to $7,000 each each pay periods or twice per month, just on payroll tax. So it’s a no brainer. When somebody’s like, hey, and this happened recently, I traveled outside of the country, somebody asked to bring me in. They’re like, would you do something for our staff, and it was great. They honored my time, they said we’ll pay for you will pay this, they were massively respectful. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  21:18

That said, we had to say, Hey, I would love to do this, however, we have to counter. And this isn’t like a cheesy negotiation thing. We just have to counter based on where we’re at. Right? Again, it’s like if I want to get Beats headphones, I can’t counter that. But that’s a different kind of service. That’s a product, you’re asking me to, I’ve already flown outside of the country, I’m teaching a 16 hour workshop, I’m speaking somewhere else. Now you want me to come to a third location, there’s travel, there’s, there’s other things involved with that. So I you know, in between speaking events, we’ll work on other projects, or it can serve clients, that’s part of making a business, I would have to stop that to go speak at this person’s event. So while I’m grateful for the amount that they wanted to pay, it needed to be upped, because it’s going to take me away from other opportunities. Right? So that goes into my economics, like opportunity cost is not just about your family and other things. It’s what’s taking away from other clients. Now, I had pushback from that not from these folks. But somebody was like, Well, how so let me get this straight. You’re just making money all the time. And if you’re gone, I have to pay for the clients that you might have? And I’m like, Well, no, of course, I’m not like just making money all the time. But there is outreach right there like even an hour before this podcast, like we’re following up with people that want to come to workshops, and, and what have you, there is outreach. So like, unexpectedly yesterday, we had two people sign up for one of our apprenticeship workshops. And that just happened from a casual text based conversation. So knowing that those things can happen. Yeah, you know what I mean, there is that or working on a podcast working on this, right? We get paid from sponsors like that, that is time. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  22:53

So think about what you need to live or run your business. This includes not just like, you know, even if you’re a traveling trainer like handyman, I asked our handyman the other day, he’s like, Well, I gotta get groceries. I’m like groceries. He’s like, Well, I’ll have to travel anywhere from like, 30 minutes to three hours, we have a wide range. So yeah, he’s like, yeah, I gotta eat on the road and whatever. And I try to keep the cost down. I don’t eat out I get groceries. He’s like, trips, continuing education and all that. Also consider every industry has markup, right? Like restaurants have food costs. My father and brother own a restaurant, there’s labor, there’s inflation, all those pieces you also need to look at comps. So what I’m telling you for those of you that want an easy answer is there’s no one size fits all formula. We’re against that our own coaching anyway. But consider your your budget, consider the intangibles, consider markup, everybody’s gonna pay markup, consider comps, right? Look at where you should be. I remember even when I just coached figuring out that somebody could have no background, no certification, no education whatsoever. And there were there were quote, unquote, personal trainers making $225 an hour, you know, and here I was with like a master’s degree and certifications or what have you, which that doesn’t mean you’re better than anybody else. But there’s a lot of due diligence and a lot of investment. I had worked with a lot of athletes and a lot of teams. And when I broke it down, I was making like 30 bucks an hour based on what I was making salary wise. I’ll leave it there and let you guys Ali. I’ll let you jump in first. And then Jake, anything you want to tag along within those things are related experiences.

 

Ali Kershner  24:19

Yeah, you know, I was reading just some research before this podcast. And I while I couldn’t really find much on like how much you should charge for your time, I found a lot on what is an hour of your time worth, which is a different question. And one I think it is worth going into because I think if you’re somebody who struggles like me to understand, like, what is an hour of your time actually worth in terms of like, should I be doing more? Should it be doing less? Should it be taking on an extra gig? Should I be for example, should I be paying for this flight that has a two hour layover instead of paying the extra $100 to just take a direct flight or should I Drive 10 minutes out of my way to go get the cheaper gas, right when it’s like 10 cents cheaper? Like, is that even worth it? So I actually think that’s a really interesting another way to look at this and just give you sort of like a jump off point. So you know, James clears who all attribute to this particular formula, where, basically, if you just look at, like, the amount of money you earn after tax, so dig away the taxes for me in California, it’s like 28%, which is steep and painful every time I see that number, but take the total amount of money that you earn, and then divide it by the total time you spend working. And that’s not just like, the actual hours that you’re at the computer. But do you have to drive to the office? Do you have to drop your kid off at daycare, those all go into the hours you spend working because they’re time away from other things. And then that number in itself gives you like an hourly price of like, what an hour of your time is actually worth in terms of what you make. And that it can be like a really cool number to look at in terms of like, okay, is it worth it to, for example, have an hour layover? If that hour layover is gonna be more expensive than an hour of my time, then? It’s probably not, it’s probably not worth it. Right. So while that doesn’t necessarily help you decide what to charge for an hour of your time, it’s an easy way to start thinking about how much time am I putting into what I’m doing? And is it worth it on the back end. 

 

Ali Kershner  26:25

So you could even and maybe this is a an interesting place to go if you if you were being contracted to speak, and they want to pay you. If they’re asking you what what’s going to cost for a 60 minute keynote, you might think, Okay, well, if I know an hour of my time is worth $50, let’s say according to that calculation, which and if you do it, it’s going to shock you how long an hour of your time is actually worth. But think about the 10 hours that you’re going to put into coming up with this presentation. Or you could even think about it like how many hours of a career have you spent building up to the point where you have knowledge to even share? Right? So it’s just an interesting thought experiment. And I did it myself. And I was I was interested to know that there have been many times that I’ve wasted time thinking I was saving money, if that makes sense.

 

Jake  27:15

Yeah, I mean, for sure. I think I think you bring up a really interesting point about do I save an extra $100 To save two hours of my time, right? penny wise dollar foolish? Yeah, exactly. I think I think that’s a fallacy that a lot of people fall into just like, whoa, I’m gonna try to make this as cost effective as I can. I’m gonna go look, I’m from the Midwest. And I, I can it was I’m so relatable to when you said I’m gonna drive 20 minutes on my way, because it’s 10 cents cheaper over there for the gas, right? Like, what is the time cost of that? And, and at the end of the day, is it really saved me all that much money? I think it’s interesting, too. So like, when you when one uses James clear formula? Obviously, your day is variable on any given time. So are you averaging out your hours per per day that you spend doing things like getting groceries, pick up the kids, whatever the case may be?

 

Ali Kershner  28:00

Yeah, so I guess according to him, he would say like, like, average it out, right? Like Sundays, you might, you know, spend eight hours Sunday’s is 10 hours. So then you would put nine hours and let’s say you work six days a week. So he has a whole like formula that you can you know, if you really want to, you could go look on his website. But yeah, it has you average out per month, per year. Because obviously, a lot of times do fluctuate. And I think Brett later on, we should touch on how what you charge should change depending on the time of yours. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  28:28

Oh, I mean, I’m, that’s where I’m going next.

 

Jake  28:30

Yeah. Oh, for sure. I think like, you know, the way we the way we treat things that are practices, we definitely try to be like the the apple of the PT world, right. So. And what I mean by that is their products are by no means the cheapest option out there. But they are so that it’s so easy to use right out of the box. So there’s a lot of clarity in how you use your product. They’re intuitive, all that stuff. And that’s why they’re so much more expensive is because they spend so much more time on the back end of the front end to make sure that when the products actually delivered, it’s exactly what you want. And they’ve given you the exact results you’re looking for. So that’s exactly what we tried to do. And and really the same thing that Apple does is they don’t discount their products very much, if ever at all. And that’s and that’s very deliberate, because they’re not trying to devalue their products, they’re not trying to, so we’re not trying to devalue our service. So there’s like one time per year will will will will discount our services. But we might be in a little bit of a different industry than you guys. But I definitely try not to or we don’t try not to swing our prices too heavily based off time of year and things like that. But it is where we are very conscious of the fact that there are periods in the year where people are going to be a little bit more cash strapped, and or going to be a little bit more the priorities just shifts throughout the year, right. Like typically in the beginning of year, people are going to be a little bit more focused on their new goals, their health or wellness, taking care of nagging injuries, things like that. So we definitely have to be positioned away to help as many people as possible in that timeframe.

 

Brett Bartholomew  29:52

Well, and you talked about not devaluing your time, Jake and then Ali you talked about right how we change things during the time of year I think This speaks to a core issue. And part of this episode, I do want to give the audience an inside look at everything that I had been told. Because there’s people that again, have fear of being rejected fear of this, I have heard every kind of excuse and thing under the especially because and I’m not trying to paint myself as special. What I am trying to say is the industry, I came from strength and conditioning has a very poor relationship with economics. And it had been sold almost like gaslit in a way to believe that, you know, again, you don’t do it for the money and this and that like, and again, I don’t understand why we’ve talked about this ad nauseam and valued. We talked about it. I’ve talked about it in a million podcast, that’s really a marketing tactic. It’s almost like No, who says that just because I’m charging for my time, that that’s what I got into it for the money, right? I don’t think that people go to small businesses on Main Street, and like, need the woman who knit sweaters and is going to charge you $30 For him, which you could buy cheaper at h&m, right? But like, they don’t say, Oh, you must be in it for the money, you charge more than h&m Like nobody says so we have a kind of a sick field and that in general. But it goes into this because I have had that. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  31:03

And this is where I think it can be really useful to combine our experiences for the audience. I did have somebody that at one time I’d given them a quote. And they said, Well, you know, you spoke for my friends, so and so. And it was a 60 minute keynote and you only charge them this. Now one, I thought that was super unprofessional of one person I spoke for to share that. And one it’s because first of all these every rate is variable based on like you said time a year, one of those people had me out during a time of year, that was a slower period. Another person had me out during one of my busiest times of year where I literally had to get a red eye come back and start training athletes that you know, by and large paid me 2500 a month, if not more to train them. So yeah, if I go to Phoenix, and I stay in the and i It’s the fall, right? It’s a beautiful, beautiful weather. It’s in the 70s and 80s. Right, like pretty much now when we’re recording this in October of 2021, I think of when it was, and I go stay at that same hotel in the summer when it’s 120 guess when it’s cheaper. Yeah, the summer, right. Like there were hotels that when I tried doing a date night with Liz, when we lived in Phoenix, it would be like $400 a night. But then in the summer, it could be like 98 to now it’s the same hotel, same room, but it’s off in peak season, right? We see that whether it’s golf courses, we see this whenever you know, and and you brought up Apple Apple will do certain discounts sometimes and they don’t. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  31:12

So it’s very simple. I said, Well, you know, excuse me, sir, like, one, I appreciate your question. Two, understand that rates do change based on time of year, you know, now I especially don’t apologize that our rates have increased because Ali, we pay you a salary, do we not? And we want to hire more people. And we might take out a business loan to expand our business. Well, these things all take money, it’s the way the world works. Inflation is a normal thing. And so I think you have to look at it just again, your base, all this comes down to the industry, you’re in their attitudes and understanding of basic economics. And then also your attitude. I think another situation that might be helpful that I’d love your guys take on is I had gotten asked to speak somewhere I’m talking with a friend, they spoke there as well. And he said, you know, mate, can you give me an idea of what you charge? So you know, I tell him what I charge. And here’s why. Because we’re just kind of sharing somebody else at the table said, Well, I don’t charge anything to do this, I’m happy to do it, I get paid plenty by the club. I’m a part of, to me, this is icing on the cake. And so I don’t know, I just think that, you know, I respect to you guys. But if you’re in this for the right reasons you’re going to do this for for free. And before you guys sound off, I’d encourage anybody that that immediately makes you like, gives you goosebumps check out episode 56 weaponization of guilt, but I just when I looked at that person and says, Dude, I appreciate you too. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  32:25

But you have to understand that you’re you’re impacting everybody else, then because you, you decide not to charge because you’re making however much money and good for you. I’m very happy for you. But like you’re driving the rest of the industry down. And it’s also, by the way, kind of, to me that’s a little cheesy, even if it’s not, because you’re trying to make yourself seem like oh, you know, I’m not gonna worry about that I’m above money, or whatever. And that’s cool if you are, but that also doesn’t mean that people that are charging are evil, like everybody’s in a different circumstance. And by the way, this was in a country that I had to fly 15 hours to get to. Yeah, for sure.

 

Jake  34:17

I mean, I think that’s an absolutely like ludicrous thing to say because like, even if you’re happy with your time or your financial situation that you’re already in this is just icing on the cake, you enjoy it, guess what people still charge for things that they enjoy to do as well. I mean, I hope you do. Like I hope you enjoy what you do for a living like, I hope you’re not just charging people because you hate what you do. Right? And we get it all the time and within our industry as well like you know, so are our prices are quite a bit higher than what it would be just as you use your insurance at least up front. And I was telling I was consulting with one of our a colleague of mine and he was like you charge what he’s like that’s highway robbery man I go compared to what compared to somebody coming in and getting a horrible result or compared to a pair of shoes I’m gonna spend just as much money on like, I think there’s a lot of I think that there’s a lot of myopic mindsets out there, when all they want to do is charge for things that are not charged for things because they enjoy what they do. I think that’s a trap that you can fall into very easily.

 

Brett Bartholomew  35:12

Ali, what do you have any thoughts on anything I talked about? And then we’re gonna come back to that compared to what? Because there’s a huge piece that I want to talk to you on that.

 

Ali Kershner  35:19

Yeah. I mean, I, when you said that, I just felt like I was dropped back into the field of strength and conditioning, because, and this is myself as well. I mean, I just, I grew up with an extremely unhealthy view of money in terms of my profession, because of the people I surrounded myself with. And that kind of attitude was pervasive. And it was talked about in every office that I ever sat in, it was like, Oh, that person is charging that for that, you know, like, and everybody thinks that they’re better than each other. And that’s, I think, where it stems from is an ego thing. But it’s really, it’s really hard to untrain yourself from that, it’s really, really difficult to get out of that space. But you, you have to think about it purely from an economic standpoint, and we need to as a field have a better healthier relationship with money. Because guess what other fields have a healthier relationship with money, I’ve now seen that working with a lot more people in physical therapy, and personal training, you know, the personal training side of it. And so I can see both sides, I can see myself having said that at one point. And I can also see why now that’s a completely unhealthy way of looking at it.

 

Brett Bartholomew  36:23

But I’m glad you said you had to untrain yourself, because that made me think even while you were talking, did I do that? Because I think that might be really helpful for our listeners as well, when we talk about fear, doubt, uncertainty, guilt, all these things. And it’s going to lead to a question that I’m gonna throw back at you Ali now that you’ve traveled a good bit with me, and seeing how how much goes into these workshops, right? When I try to think about how did I train myself, I do want to acknowledge where some listeners are. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  36:23

Early on, when I started getting asked to speak as was evident by but at what I quoted, I was just so pumped to be able to share a message, I was cool, just getting out there for whatever. And so I don’t want that to be lost in our messaging. If you are just starting out in that whatever like take take a lot of different events, I still up to six or seven a year as I can, we’ll go I’m gonna go next year and speak somewhere for 250 bucks, 250 bucks, my rate right now ranges depending on what people want, I have no issue sharing this over here, anywhere from 3500 to 25,000. And I can give you every reason under the sun, why I charge that. And guess what, I have people that pay me that and I’m not ashamed of it. Because that money goes to good use growing a business paying salaries, donating portions of proceeds to other organizations. And I’m not going to apologize for that at all, nor should any small business owner. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  37:40

But I do want people to know that it is okay to just early on, refine it, like take cool, somebody’s gonna offer you 100 bucks, go do it. Friend needs you, you’re gonna swap services, I’ve done that. I’ve done that with a friend where they’re like, you don’t need to pay me just come and speak for us at some point in time, great bad fit into that business structure. Those things are okay, those things are okay. But as the hundreds of 1000s of miles started racking up. And that’s not a humble brag, and you start realizing like, there were people that would take advantage of me, they’d pay me a certain amount for a keynote. And you looked at that price point. And let’s say it was really, it was a great price point. But then all of a sudden, I’d land and now I’m going out to breakfast, they’re turning that into a session, then I’m supposed to go back to the hotel. And it’s really happened that I was at the hotel, I’m in my room, 20 minutes, and they said, Hey, a friend of ours, want to know if you’d meet him in the lobby chat a little bit. Now that was an hour because I didn’t want to be rude, you know? And then all of a sudden, they’re like, by the way, we have a dinner tonight, would you come for the dinner turned into a panel. And all of a sudden it was for events. And I was like, You know what? That’s not cool, right? I’m happy to do it. And like, I’m just enthused to be there. And I had these battles in my head, Jake, where I’d be like, Shut up, man. Just be happy somebody asks you because I was still new to it. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  38:51

But then I started to realize that people will really take advantage of you. Yeah, not everybody’s doing it. Some people are just aloof. Because they don’t know, do by the next time that I the next I spoke up, my voice was nearly out. And then they wanted another event. And it happened again, when I’d gone back to my home state I got contracted by somebody. And then it was all my friend would love to see you. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  39:09

And I was so like, so caught up in imposter phenomenon Ali that like this idea. They knew how to pitch it perfectly all this person loves your work. And I’m like, what, like I’m making a difference. Cool. Take me there. Take me there. I literally spoke nonstop, from 8am to 7:30pm. And it was supposed to be a one time event. And it’s this mix of like, there’s gratitude there. I’m very grateful that you give people the benefit of the doubt. But it was after that Ali, when you said how do you deal with training yourself out of that? There were enough of those events that I realized I need to get really serious about this. Because it was almost became like the person that got a great meal. And then it was like, You know what, my food was a little cold. But you just ate all of it. You know, you just ate all of it and, and you started seeing people take advantage of you too. And I’d start pricing our courses and I’m being very open up the curtain here. Yeah. Our online courses Bought In took us 30k to bake, Valued 30k to make Blindspot about 12 to 15 all included well when we did comps in the area and this is why I tell you guys one size fits all advice doesn’t work. We looked at comps and we’re like, alright, we filmed Bought In and Valued masterclass style 4k video, I flew out to LA, again, my organization, the one that I owned, didn’t pay for my flights, right, I had, I had to pay for my flights, my hotel 18 months of all this stuff. Other Other courses were $800 to $1200. But then there was, you know, the fact that our audience was kind of cash traps, who were like, alright, we’ll put this at 497. And we’ll do a payment plan. Well, you can’t really tell your audience, although we all are now we’re pulling back the curtain, how much it costs, but it really hurt Ali, when people would say, Hey, I just can’t afford it, but love your work. Or when they’d read conscious coaching three to four times, which I’m pumped about. I’m very grateful. But then when I was like, hey, like, but we also have this cool course that like, I promise, I’m like, Yes, I guess I’m selling, but I’m not trying to I’m just like, if you’ve read that and you want more, this course will like actually help you even more, right? Oh, I can’t afford it. But then you’d see them five months later, go pay, and I’m not gonna give anybody free shout outs, somebody that charged three times that for a two to four day event. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  41:14

And so then you kind of feel bitter. Because you’re like, not only sometimes you get taken advantage of but there’s people that don’t understand or respect your time. But or they’ll lie to you, when in reality, like they’ll just go somewhere else. And that was hard to navigate to. So I’m like, screw this. If I’m going all in, man, I’m trying to over provide I’m trying to over deliver, like you said, Ali, and I’m putting my own money up front. And I’m doing this and I’m doing that. And you’re still saying you don’t value it. Screw that, like, why should I have to substantiate it, and then I’m going to all these lengths of what it costs to do it, you realize that sometimes you’re just speaking to the wrong audience, for sure. So I Quit Chasing anybody that like needed this, if you need some basic understanding, I’ll give you a breakdown. If you need this, I’ll give you a breakdown. But even when we ran our mastermind, our Coalition, and somebody from Pro sport who made several $100,000, a year would be like, timeout, I’m paying for six months of mentoring. You have two calls a month. You have all this other stuff. Why is it $3,500? And I want to be like, Dude, you have? There’s what you want to say like I paid $18,000 for a coach at one point. Yeah. And then there’s what you can say you can be like, hey, totally good question. What you might not know is a lot of prep work goes into this, I’m also giving you information that cost me three 410 $1,000, sometimes to learn through mistakes. This is time I’m not putting my son to bed, but you like can’t say that, you just have to realize after a while, like, if this person isn’t sold on the value of it, then more facts are not always going to help that.

 

Jake  42:42

No, I don’t think I think you can run into a trap of always trying to try to justify your prices to the wrong person as well. I think that or not, I think that we run into this all the time with like, white people that will come in and like that everybody wants a pair of prices that we charge. And that’s totally fine, they can do that. All they want, they can walk right out the door, there’s people that it might be a better service for them. That’s not us that we’re not the best person for them. But also, like if you’re constantly trying to justify what you do, like we go into, like the whole thing as well, like, Oh, you’re gonna get a customized email like we all we you know, we have X amount of hours of content that we all do, like we all have these x certifications like, that doesn’t matter. If you’re constantly trying to justify what you’re doing, then you’re probably chasing the wrong person. I think trying to chase the wrong audience is a very poor use of your time at the end day as well. So it’s like walking this tightrope. I get it though, you try to also make somebody understand where you’re coming from. And it’s definitely like a, it’s an art to try to walk between clarity or providing clarification and also trying to provide justification. Because if you’re trying to provide clarity, that’s different than justifying your charges.

 

Ali Kershner  43:44

Well, and if I can offer sort of how I’ve walked myself out of this as well, was the understanding of perceived time value versus actual time value. Because cost dollar cost doesn’t change, right. But for example, I will walk into a shopping mall, and I’ll look at the price tags of clothing. And like I will literally like freeze up and I will find the nearest exit like I like for some reason spending money on clothing is really difficult for me. Probably because I can’t justify the need for it. I have plenty of clothes, plenty of comfortable, stylish clothes, probably not stylish. If you’re, you know, if you actually look at me and what I wear, that’s fine. To me, it’s stylish, but then I walk into a grocery store, or I go to a nice restaurant, and I don’t even blink. I literally don’t even blink at what I spent on food. Why? Because I can justify it. In terms of it nourishing me of the importance of healthy food. I enjoy going to the grocery store. So that’s like it’s something that I can justify all day long. And yet I will if you look at how much money I’ve spent on food versus clothing, it’s like probably 10,000 fold right? So I think how I started looking at everything that I was consuming myself. Was it Is this aligned with what I value? Right. And I think if I can then turn the flip that and be like, You know what I value what I’m producing and what I’m giving to people, I think it’s of the highest quality, that I stopped feeling so bad. And it goes back to the first point we started with is like, so long as you’re putting out good stuff, and you can justify the value of your work. You should not feel ever guilty for what you charge.

 

Brett Bartholomew  45:26

Well, and touching on that, because that goes into another psychological aspect of this if we’re if we’re if we’re really getting into the origins of why people have trouble charging, it’s, even though they want a formula. It’s not that they don’t have one. Remember, like, it’s it’s, Hey, I’m, I’m scared of charging for this, or I feel guilt or I don’t want to be rejected, or I don’t want this and I don’t want that. I’d actually say that some people are even more terrified about like, what if somebody says yes? What if somebody says Yes, can I actually deliver. So I think that and I hope the audience is listening to this, some of you. And again, this comes from a place of like, love, tough love, whatever. That’s why I talk in a convicting tone, anytime I’m on this podcast is, I think some of you are setting the bar low for yourselves, because you almost don’t believe in your ability to deliver. And whether that’s imposter phenomenon or a blog or what have you or anxiety. So it’s that idea of and I’m making up these numbers, right? But Ali, and this is a you this is just an example. If Ali says screw it, I’m going to charge $1,000 an hour for a phone consult. And again, making this up although guys, you need to understand there’s lawyers and what have you that charge that all the time, right for things like that. And you might think it’s ridiculous. I know one time I had to pay a lawyer 625 an hour. And that ate up nearly all the royalties for the first year of my book, you know, and what have you, but he gave me advice it called Save me, you know, 20 grand, but if Ali does charge that, and somebody says yes, now there’s that Holy shit. And I know that that happened, because one of our mentoring things, right, it ranges from 3500 Right now, for six months. But we also have intensive one to one for a year. That’s 35,000. Now some of our audience just, and I remember, we had somebody you know, as part of our organization and extended part of it that says, Man, I’ve never paid that much for anything. Do you feel? Do you feel guilty? And I said, guilty? Why do you think no, I’m telling this person that weekly, I am going to meet with them, give them every bit of my energy on honesty, time, whatever, 35,000 I go, Dude, my my goal is to provide such an awesome experience for this person that they feel like they got a deal. And then he said, and I’m glad that he said this, he goes, I just would be so scared that I wouldn’t be able to deliver on that. And I go, Well, that’s what’s holding you back, then it’s not the money. It’s that you are scared that you will not be able to deliver on what you promise somebody. I’ll open that one up to anybody.

 

Jake  47:45

Yeah. No, you got it. Go for it.

 

Ali Kershner  47:48

I was gonna say, if no, if you hear nothing else, I hope you guys hear that point. Because that literally will change the way you think about everything. I think that we’re scared of success. I really do. And I will call myself out on it. I’ll call out every other person listening to this because I know you have said no to something, knowing it could turn out awesome, simply because you were not ready or willing to put in the effort.

 

Jake  48:13

Yeah, I mean, I think that happens all the time. But then on the flip side of that, too, is like when you do make that jump, like, I’ll never forget the very first person who said yes to doing a PT package with me, like that’s ingrained in my brain forever. And, you know, we deliver and had a good had a good process. And it is what it is at that point. But and it gave me and that’s a nice springboard for you to have that confidence. Like once you have that successful, yes. And then you put yourself because you are putting yourself out there. Like if you’re charging something for service more than a product like that service is so much more personal, personable than just saying, hey, buy my product that I have read this supplement that I have, you’re saying by my advice that I have by my consultation. That is that is essentially an extension of yourself. And for somebody to say yes, that like man, that’s, that’s an awesome experience. Like, I will always remember that. And most most of the people out there who that listen to this show, if you’ve had that experience, and you’ve heard that you’ve had that first Yes, I’m sure you remember that first person as well. It’s very personable, and it’s very motivational at the same time. But you got to be able to deliver and when you do man sky’s the limit at that point.

 

Brett Bartholomew  49:17

And the callback here is going into ally what you said originally about how do I train myself out of being worried about this? Well, that the answer is the obstacle that you’re talking about, like once you over deliver once you go all in on something and that emotional cost, not just the you know the economic of what it costs for you to put it together. Right. But the emotional cost like when when you came in ran and CO lead some of your first apprenticeships or even our most recent one at the time of this recording in Nashville. How does that feel? And I’ll tie this in but how does that How did that feel like what did you notice? I mean, you can’t you came from coaching nonstop in the trenches all the time. It’s not like you didn’t have your sea legs, but when you got into this side of it, right like a different kind of Coaching all that the intensity of it, how did you feel

 

Ali Kershner  50:04

this kind of coaching is unlike anything because there’s the emotional factor. I’m no longer just coaching X’s and O’s. But I’m coaching human behavior and like the highs and lows that come with that and having to be on, it’s such a different level. And then if I actually look at it, when I was coaching, I was on for maybe 30 minutes at a time, like my assessments were very short. Over the course of a week, this is, you know, an apprenticeship is eight hours, two days in a row, six hours straight of high level of emotional attunement with the people you’re working with, as opposed to, maybe over the course of a week spread out four hours of like, actual coaching for me.

 

Jake  50:46

Yeah, and then Ali, real quick, you’re Brett, I respect I have so much respect for like everything that that you guys do over the AOC in the apprenticeships and everything else, because coaching, physical therapy, coaching to some degree like, you can make a positive impact on people’s lives for sure, like, especially in the world of fitness, or strength conditioning like that is by far our keystone habit that can positively positively impact the rest of somebody’s life. But with these apprenticeships, what man and just two days, you can totally change the lens at which somebody sees the world through that is unequivocally more impactful, then anytime you can spend a gym because that new lens that somebody’s seeing the seeing the world through man nowadays that can be that can lead to better relationships with their spouse or their significant other, that could lead to better relationship with work. That could lead to just being a better parent that could lead to so many other avenues and just a short 48 hour time frame that is really tough to do and another in any other type of setting. So I think that’s, I think you guys are going incredible work and it’s it shows every single time you guys go through this Apprenticeship

 

Brett Bartholomew  51:49

one time and what you said what Ali said, I’m gonna I’m gonna make these all relate. So Ali like going into putting, there’s such an emotional cost when you try to over deliver and you’re doing something new and you’re putting a service out there. After you do that enough, you realize, okay, that’s, that’s, again, when we’re talking about how a restaurant tour or somebody like that costs things out, right? There’s the basic economics of the food and the labor in this. And for us, it’s like your body, your mind, like that takes a toll that takes a hit. And so it’s easier to train yourself. Like after you push yourself to that level. It’s easier to be like, No, this substantiates the costs. And again, that’s why some people don’t want to do it is because I think they want to make the impact, but they don’t necessarily always know what it takes, and the consistency of it and the grind of it. And, Jake, it ties into what you said because as a physical therapist, right, you it’s very hands on manual therapy can be very taxing your body can can take a hit. And isn’t this funny? This all ties back to the profession that many of us started out in, like when I look at athletes, right? Like they get contracts, right? Some of the jerseys behind me these guys made 12 million or 50 million a year. Well, their their industry understands that they’re breaking their bodies down based on emotional and physical effort. And then guess what, they’re not only getting paid guarantee money and money up front, but they have advocates making sure they get paid that money. And then and I just went to dinner with one of my friends that’s in the league still right now he’s on the IR. He’s like I’m getting you know, you so at least have the NFLPA that helps you. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  53:17

So another reason like coaches and leaders and whatever you like, you guys need to charge for your time and, and not be feel guilty. Because guess what, nobody’s read it. You don’t have an NFL PA, you don’t have a guild, you don’t have somebody else, you don’t have a union, like we don’t have that we don’t have somebody fighting for our time and what have you. And that’s kind of what makes it suck is because sometimes, you gotta and even if you stand out in your market, because I dealt with this, and I want to speak to this part of our audience, I charge more than a lot of our market. And it’s not because I think I’m better than our market. It’s because our market had a messed up attitude towards money. And it was a race to the bottom. And it was a race to the bottom because coaches didn’t want money, but they wanted validation. They want validation of I’m known as one of the best or I’m you know, I, I want everybody to come to me, so they were willing to sell parts of their soul. And yeah, I’m saying it to those of you listening. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  54:06

A lot of coaches were willing to save part sell parts of your soul, so that you had more validation and recognition and feel good stuff from everybody in the industry. But guess what, that doesn’t pay your bills, I cannot go into the bank and say, I’m sorry, I’m defaulting on my loans or this or that. But hey, I do it for the right reasons. You know, they’re gonna be like, right? There’s, there’s a nice wishes like that. And there’s you feeling that sense of pride. And then there’s the hard economic reality, or I can’t look at the bank and say, if you were in this for the right reasons, you would just give me this. And we have that entitlement already in society. We have that entitlement. And so I just hope people see that like, don’t apologize for what you’re worth. Don’t apologize for what you’re worth and understand. People are going to ask you, and I will send this episode as a matter of fact, to people that are like, Hey, why should I have to pay this much? Why should I have to pay that much? And I think that it’s just asking the audience to if you’re not speaking and you’re not doing those things fine. but also have some also have some I would say what’s the like comportment? Like, I think the other thing that kind of chaps me a little bit is when somebody says I’d love to come. But my Con Ed budget is out. I’ve never had a Conmed content. I think when I was at Exos, we had like $2,500. And I was grateful for that. Right. So there’s no issue with that. But I think of all the money I invested in myself and my education are taking my wife to clinics, or looking at what I put into the book and the courses and what you guys have put into your own education, right, like, the last thing I would ever want to say to somebody is, Hey, Jake, sorry, I can’t come to your clinic. Because my organization won’t cover it. I get that everybody’s in tight. But if I’m being honest, and I’m showing some and maybe you know, maybe it’s pettiness or what have you, I just have an issue I’d rather have you be like, Hey, your stuffs not for me, I’m not coming because I’m not a big believer in it, then you say like, oh, sorry, my organization doesn’t have the content budget. Because what that says to me is, well, then you don’t believe in it enough to print to come out of pocket. Yet, if you had a business, I have to pay out of pocket. That’s the reality of it.

 

Ali Kershner  56:00

Well, and Brett to go off of that, and this is switching gears slightly, but I think it plays off of that really well as and Jake, too, I’d love to hear your perspective on this. Once you have entered the world where you now have to understand what to charge for your time. And you’ve started doing that, you now have an understanding of what you’re worth, and what an hour of your time is worth. Right? So how then, as an entrepreneur, as an entrepreneur, both of you guys, how do you then shut it off? Like how do you decide? Because I know if I work one more hour, I can make x more dollars, right? So then how do you decide what’s the opportunity cost of working hour versus taking some time hanging out with my family hanging out with my kids? Or you know what, at a certain point, I’m just gonna, you know, burn out like, then how do you decide on that when it’s all on you to make the money, especially for art of coaching our company?

 

Brett Bartholomew  56:47

Jake, I’ll let you go first. Yeah, I

 

Jake  56:49

think the big one there is that you just have to know like who you are, to your core, like, you have to know exactly what you stand for. You have to know exactly what your what your life mission statement is, you know, like, I my wife and I, we took this really interesting course on creating or treating your family as a company essentially, in like, having roles unknown with no know what everyone’s like title is, you know, it can be as cheesy as you want it to be. But it was really, it was really insightful. And for you to know, like, okay, these are the things that I value most in life, is everything that is every decision at that point makes it to where does this enhance that aspect of my life that is most important? Because if the answer is yes, then do it. If the answer is no, then don’t I mean, like, and you have to earn the right to be able to make that distinction at that at some point. But I think that knowing who you are, what your values are, would and having strong clarity on what your family values are. That makes the decision a lot easier. If you don’t know what that is, then yeah, you can fall into like this trap and being like, well, if I just work X amount of hours, I just keep going until two o’clock in the morning, then I’ll make X amount of dollars. But that’s a that’s a trap that you can fall into as well. Because exactly we talked about like you need to be able to have at some at the end of the day, you need to know what you’re doing all your work for. And if you don’t and that’s that’s an issue.

 

Brett Bartholomew  58:04

Yeah, I’d say my biggest issue with that is to take a different approach, right, because he made a good a lot of good points that I don’t want to be redundant, is I know, like where I used to not turn it off is I would just give my time to people that wanted to be saved instead of people that wanted to be helped. And I had to learn that no matter what my drive was as a coach, especially because I had this hole I wanted to fill inside. Because when I was a younger, professional, I would get big time a lot, I wouldn’t get a lot of responses, whatever, when I reached out to people, even if I offered to pay them money that I didn’t really even have at that point in time. And so what I did is I got into this rabbit hole of working more and more and more, because there was always another DM always another email. And that’s why we have a whole episode on boundaries, we probably should do a second one. But what I started to realize is what we’ve talked about the episode, there were some people that I would try to just say, hey, you know, I’d help them the best I could, even though they’d give me limited context. But ultimately, I’d also ask them, like, what can I do to earn your trust, by the way, because you’re asking the right questions, but their deeper questions and our resources could really help you. But then they’d be like, oh, yeah, I’d love to. And you know, one person is like, well, when you come into New Jersey, and I’m like, Oh, actually, we have a workshop coming up there, send them a link to New Jersey and what have you. And then they’re like, Oh, cool. I’ll see if I can make it. And I’m like, Well, wait a minute, you just wanted to what have I started responding to every DM like that? Hey, let me see if I can answer this another time, you know, or what have you. And that’s another thing that I think I just grew limited patience for is because there were people saying I can’t make the time or I can’t afford it. But then they wanted me to answer all their questions on DMS or emails. And what I kind of wanted to say and where I learned to stop is Hey, bud, this takes time for me and this cost money for me and this takes away from my family. So why is it okay that I can give you stuff for me for free? Especially look at this podcast, right like 1000s of hours of content on social media and the podcasts and whatever. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  59:50

So why is it okay for us to give you stuff for free for you, but it’s not free for us, but you won’t invest in us and that again, where it just comes down to basic economics people Don’t understand that what’s free for them to consume is not free for other people to make. What? What? What? Yes, I’m sorry, okay, you can’t go away. Because you don’t have a lot of time. Well, don’t disrespect people that are flying overseas or doing this or whatever, taking 16 hours out of their time to do that. And I’ve tried thinking about, as a devil’s advocate to myself, somebody could say, Yeah, but you’re making money on that we’re not? Well, no, that’s not always true. Because a lot of people that come are on salary, so they’re not, you know, what I mean, that they are making money off of that, like, where’s we’re not, or there’s been people that have pensions and salaries. So it’s, people just have to be very careful of the excuses they make, because it’s fundamental attribution error. They think somebody else is being selfish, whereas reality they are, but they’re given some different excuses. I’d say the other thing, Ali, when you say, how do you turn it off, and I’m talking about saved and people that want to be helped and saved and people that are willing to invest or not. Another thing I’d say to people is like, you make it really easy for me to decide whether I’m going to turn it on or turn it off based on like, what are other ways you give back to us? You know, what are other ways that you try to carry it on and and Jake said it earlier, like compared to what, that’s why when people say, Hey, this is expensive, or this takes too much time, or whatever, compared to what you can buy, you may not like our prices for things cool, go buy something cheaper, but then don’t be mad again, when it breaks down, at least with us, we can tell you that this has worked for organizations such as Microsoft, such as Facebook, such as the military such as this, like, at the end of the day excellence is self evident. So it’s bullshit. That’s the beauty about putting skin in the game Ali, if our stuff was crap, and it was overpriced crap and whatever. Like guess what, that Lindy effect doesn’t take place. We don’t stay around long, because that social contagion that can get like in the 1950s. And other times, you could run crap stuff. And granted word of mouth would get around or whatever. But it’s easier than ever now.

 

Jake  1:01:45

Oh, for sure, the market will let you know what your prices are real quick, you know, like, and there’ll be faster calls to the BS that you’re kind of putting out there as well.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:01:51

And to your point, exactly, that’s like, when when you have because I want to talk about to Ali like what about when your audience is cash strapped. There’s only so much we can decrease our prices. Like I still want to serve strength coaches. But I can only do that so much when other industries are showing us a better value for our time where they’re like, hey, you know what, you don’t know, we’re not going to just pay you $200 and come out, we’re going to pay you 20,000 And we value you and not only that, we’re not going to make you nickel and dime over what hotel to stay at or what this and so we want to serve everybody. But there’s a two way street there were like, nobody’s gonna ever wake up and be like, Oh my god, I have so much time and money to spend. Even Even folks that are rich by whatever standard are going to be like, more money, more problems, Notorious BIG. So I turn it off by saying, Am I trying to help people that just want to be saved instead of being helped? How much of myself have I given already in the past few hours, days, months, weeks and years? What do I have coming up? Right? What do I have coming up that other people like right now it’s easy to know when to turn it off? When somebody DMS and says hey, how do I build buy in or whatever Ali, and they choose not to take bought in, they choose not to buy the core, the book, or they choose not to come to our Asheville, North Carolina workshop, our New Jersey one, our Toronto one, our Austin one, if they choose not to do those things, like I can’t help that person. If you’re telling me I basically need to come to your city, give it to you free and all that. You make it easy to be like I’m sorry, that’s there’s no two way street here. Even if I gave you all that time, you wouldn’t respect it. You wouldn’t respect it. Because you’re not there’s no skin in the game on your end. And I won’t budge on that. Like, I don’t think there’s a devil’s advocate perspective on if you want everything free, cheap and easy. Like I’m sorry, like, you make it very easy for me to be like no, like, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt maybe your hunger and whatever. You don’t know what you don’t know. Right. But then we also have free resources. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:03:37

Here’s our website. Ali, how many free resources do we have on our tech coaching.com? 

 

Ali Kershner  1:03:41

At least like 15 right 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:03:43

about how do I find a mentor? How do I advise for new coaches this and that. If it’s not on the website? It’s on the podcast. So it’s also easy to be like, Have you listened to our podcast? Have you done the book? If you download the free resources? Have you gone to a no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And then somebody’s like, hey, but I plan to because people have learned how to play this game with me. They’re like, Hey, dude, love it. I’m gonna check it out. But right now I just have this question. But then they’re inevitably going to reach out again. Somebody did that the other day. And I go, Hey, I noticed that you DM in October 2018, southern senior in the course or whatever, what like, what can we do to make it better? And they’re like, ah, you know, just haven’t had the time. I’m like, bro, like, I love you. I’m not answering your ship, though. You’re being you’re being late and you’re a user. And I’m gonna let you know your user. And by the way, I’m so petty that I have you on a shit list. We have a Google doc shiftless. People that have ripped our stuff off, put it on their website. We totally have a shitless

 

Jake  1:04:26

love it. You’re like, was it Ryan from the office? He’s got his little list of people that he’s coming back for?

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:04:31

I don’t know him, but I love him. Yes. I mean, did that answer your question? In a myriad ways of ways?

 

Ali Kershner  1:04:36

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think even to like, Brett, like, you’re in a creative position, right? Like, yes, you’re running a business but you’re also very much a content creator. And so I think another way to think about it is like, you know, you like you could get to a point where like, yeah, I could spend another hour working on my book or I could spend another hour writing blogs or creating podcast content, but at what cost? Right like, because then it’s gonna be shit like that. The quality becomes shit. So then I think you can kind of think of it as like I could spend, what’s the opportunity cost of spending one more hour on this? Is the quality going to be worth it? If not, no, shut it down. I’m done. I’m moving on to something else. Or I’m, I’m spending time with Bronson. Right. And I think that’s another way of thinking about it. Because we all know that you need that recovery time for your brain to optimize the time that you are working. So I think all of those play together.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:05:25

Because even think of it this way, right? Let’s say somebody and this is where I have strong opinions for a reason on this. We started the apprenticeship pricing model, right? Like it, let’s say somebody’s listening, and they’re like, Brett Jesus, you make it sound like you charge a ton to come speak, whatever. Well, depending on the context. Yeah, like, we don’t charge a ton we change. We charge an amount that is commensurate with that, right? When when somebody did say, once will you have a presentation built out? You know, why should I have to pay that much I go that’s like me go into Apple, like Jake said, and being like, Hey, this is the this like the 1 million MacBook Pro? Why should I have to pay? You know what I mean? Like, no, there’s, you’re not just paying for that. Cool. You just want the slides. I’ll send those to you. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:06:02

But the other thing I’d say and I almost lost my train of thought and had to do with that is Oh, yeah, we see what the the apprenticeship Ali, it’s free for somebody to host right. Here’s here’s your guys playbook for the apprenticeship. Anybody that wants us to come? It is free for you, as long as you help us get 10 paid signups. And that makes sense. You You want us to come to Houston. Okay, cool. Well, you’re in the Houston community, you have word of mouth, you know, other people in Houston, we don’t like so it makes sense that we would ask you like, it’s pretty simple. It’s an exchange influenced tactic. You and a staff member get it come for free, as long as you spearhead you know, getting the signups right. And for us, that’s our way of saying we’ll meet in the middle, you don’t have to pay for anything. Maybe they have to pay for a hotel, I say to residents in what is that $130 A night, maybe they gotta buy some snacks from Costco or whatever, let’s say snacks, coffee, all that ends up being 330 bucks, let’s say at the end of it a host basically, if they just pay for snacks, and, you know, they, they whatever, let’s say it cost them 500 bucks. That’s a hell of a lot better than what it would cost just for me to come. And we want to make that accessible. Because we’re wanting to meet our audience where we’re at cash strapped people, some of them and people that just like it’s it’s a way of saying let’s make this a collaboration tactic. Right, right. But then what we still see and thankfully, not often, but we see it. And this is where you get to call people on your own BS. And if you guys are putting together your own pricing model, is we still see some people that are like, Hey, we haven’t had any signups. And then we’re like, cool, what are you doing? Why put something out on social media? I go, Oh, cool. So you put something out on social media, you know, the algorithm isn’t gonna show that most people don’t get on social media to sign up for, you know, a conference, right? And now you’re asking us to push it on our podcasts or this and whatever, when we already have to do that for like, 39 other events, right? So the thing is, it’s not even about the money. It is about the effort. And it is about their competence. And it is about them just wanting to do the work to actually do what they say they want to do. Yeah, because the people that sell out our coffee real quickly. They’re like, Dude, are you kidding? Boop, boop, boop, within within three weeks, they have everything sold out.

 

Jake  1:08:02

Yeah. Well, I think it’s very rarely all about the money. I mean, if it’s important that people will find the resources to be able to do what they want what they need, right? So I mean, you look at my wife, she wanted to make a career change, and the way to the path to do that the best path that we found was this conference, or not this conference, but this course, it’s like $14,000.18 $1,000 $14,000, and like, look like that was a lot of money to us. And it took a lot like I had to work like extra jobs. I had to do all these things. But dammit, we found a way to do it. And she’s so happy with her career, and I wouldn’t I wouldn’t do it any other way. You know? So like, we didn’t see that price point, man. I guess you just got to stay where you’re at. We can’t do that. Right? Like no, we’ve made it found a way to make it work. And it’s been life changing. So and that’s what your guys’s courses are the right people will find a way to make it work. I don’t care how cash strapped you or like something like resources like money is renewable, right? There’s always gonna be more money coming in to some degree and what type of what type of opportunity loss are you having by not doing something that you see can be a value change for the rest of your life? Well, I

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:09:01

want to throw this to Ali next. But like that competence thing goes two ways with Jake said and and now those of you in the audience like what I’m talking to is if you feel free, like like Ali said, Cool, you figured out what you’re worth you’re charging for it. But let’s say like some other people just aren’t coming in the door, right? And you could think like, Oh, my idea sucks and whatever. No, no, no. Like it could be the wrong time of year the wrong messaging. It could be this, we actually found that our sales increased once we increased prices and provided three pricing options. But the confidence thing works this way too. And hear me out. What I mean is Ali and I talked about some people being scared of success. So they don’t want to charge what they’re worth because they don’t know if they can deliver on that. What I learned and I never would have thought this Jake. There was one guy great dude, don’t remember his name and I change his name. Even if I did let’s call him Steve. Steve Ed had said he wanted to join our course a lot of times and then never did and I eventually was just like, I had a bad day. I was like Steve cut this shit. What is this really? Because you retweet repost everything but you never come and then you say you want to come But then you don’t come and then whatever. And here’s where the competence thing kicks in on the buyers side. Yep. This was for an online courses sorry, not caught. He was like, here’s the thing. It’s not that it’s too expensive. He goes, I’m scared that I’ll buy it. And based on the fact that I’m already at work all day, and don’t get to see my family much, it’s that I’m scared that I’ll buy it and not use it. For sure the price is fair. I’m just scared. I won’t do it. And then what, you know, kind of what I told Steve is like, and that’s a valid excuse. 100%. Right. But then I’m like, well, but that’s also another reason you should do it. Because things you invest in, you prioritize for absolutely, like, I paid a coach 18k At a time when I had never paid a coach anything I went from like peer coaching, nothing to paying a coach 18k You know what, every friggin day of every friggin week during COVID, I was like, I got to check in with this coach, I got to do this. I was obsessed with getting my value out of it. So some people are, again, money and all this as a smokescreen. And I think even what’s tough with me Ali and devil’s advocate this or chime in is there was even a time where I would listen to a podcast like this. And I’d be like, Yes, sir. Being helpful. Yes, they’re covering a lot of angles. But it also seems like they’re just getting people to be more accepting to buying their shit. So then I’d close down still. And I’m like, Well, how do you reach those people? And then I just realized if you’re that skeptical, or it takes that much convincing of all these things, I don’t I just don’t have a rebuttal. Right? I don’t have a rebuttal because I don’t have time to do that. That is a deeper seated issue that doesn’t come from us on this podcast. That’s you’ve had such bad experiences with money or buying things or your your own ability to lock into them in the past, and we are not qualified therapists. So like, and I’m not being a smartass. But you should get to the bottom of that. I promise I’m not being Yes, smart aleck Ali thoughts on any of that?

 

Ali Kershner  1:11:46

Yeah, I like to go to your point of what the the buyers feeling. I think it’s more on the buyer, not trusting themselves to make use of that product than it is ever about the seller, right? Because I know that I’ve been challenged with a price. And I’m never like, resentful about the price. I’m like, Okay, can I soak everything out of this product and make it worth the value that I’m going to be placing into it? Because again, like Jake said, like money is renewable, like I can go make more money. That’s not the issue. I’m not scared of that part of it so much as I’m basically because a yes to the product is a commitment. It is basically saying that I’m going to prioritize this over many other things. Right? So like you’re locked in once I like the same yes to being on this podcast right now means I’m doing nothing else for this hour and a half that we’re recording. So saying yes to this product means that I have to somehow make it worth it, make it justify the use of this course justify the use of this contractor, then I’m hiring above other things, and that makes you reconcile priorities in your own mind, and maybe come to terms with some demons that you have within your own head within your own ego, I would say,

 

Jake  1:13:01

yeah, for sure. I mean, I think, you know, even on like the like the healthcare side like I am, we get great results with our clients. And I am, like, we’re good at what we do. But there’s a lot of people that are just as good as what we do at what we do. It’s just we get people that have more skin in the game,

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:13:15

by the way, who’s we I guess the intro will cover it. But for anybody that skipped the intro, tell them who you work for. So if somebody is in the area, or looking for somebody, and is not scared to pay a professional who’s we

 

Jake  1:13:25

Yeah, so we is Athletes’ potential and Decatur, Georgia or Atlanta, Georgia, we’re cash based practice, we’re one of the one of the most well known and well respected categories practices in the Atlanta area. And we take great pride in that. But we understand that we’re gonna give you everything that we can when you come and work with us. But because of the price point, like we know that the people that are working with us are gonna give us everything they can as well. And when both relationships are given 100% The results are going to come that’s a guarantee.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:13:51

So this is the final point that I want to get to. And I think it’s appropriate that we have a longer episode here because it’s just such a rich topic. Inevitably, there’s people that think like, like we’re gonna cover this and Brand Builder, right athlete or athlete I just called Ali athlete, right ally? Or an athlete? Yeah, so we’re gonna cover this in Brand Builder, and we easily could have just saved this and like, what did this episode so far, it’s an hour and 11 minutes, we could have saved it and Brandbuilder’s gonna be like two full days, this would have been easy to just hold for that. But and we’ll probably we’ll still talk about this. And it’ll be more even more refined. And we’ll build out even more examples and what have you. But there are some people that would have reached out that said, hey, I want to do a podcast, I want to do this. But what like what would make anybody even want to buy if they’re already kind of cheap, or if they’re already kind of like dealing with doubt and uncertainty or they’re already like whatever I if I give it for free, right? Because like we could charge for this. Like I know without a doubt it’s I mean, it’s we have charged for this. We’ve had people that have done communication training calls with us, by the way that that is 100% a plug art of coaching.com/communication that I paid for this kind of stuff. And yet we’re giving Get away for free. And we had another person that said, hey, my mom always used to tell me why, you know why pay for the milk when you can get the cow for free? And so just addressing, I want all of us to give a cake. And I’ll go last. Okay, it’ll go Ali, and then Jake, and I’ll go last. What should we say to people that are like, I want to help more? I know what I want to charge. But I’m so scared to create content, because I don’t want to give it away for free. Because then what will make people even buy for it? Does that? Is that a clear prompt first? Yeah, cool ally, you first then Jake, if there’s redundancy, that’s totally fine, the audience will need it. Well,

 

Ali Kershner  1:15:33

I think with with regard to what we do, I think you can give away as much as you want for free, because guess what, it still doesn’t teach people how to apply it to their own life. And that’s what people really want. And that’s what they’re paid, they’ll pay for. I know, in my own life, I can read, I’ve taken every single one of our courses as a student first. I’ve done everything as a student first, for art of coaching. And even with all that knowledge, I still would have paid for a time with Brett one on one or time with myself one on one because they now know this stuff, because they would have taught me how to apply it to my own life. Right? And like how to actually actually do this for my brand or whatever. So I think that’s that’s the value of giving things away for free. It tells you exactly what you’re gonna get. But it still doesn’t teach how to do it for yourself.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:16:17

Awesome. Yeah, I

 

Jake  1:16:18

got a couple things with that. One is kind of piggybacking off of what Ali said, like, look, the internet is we are our job is information clarification. At this point, it is not information giving, like point people can find the find the information they’re looking for online, very easy. Like it’s not hard to look up an ACL rehab protocol, it’s not it’s not hard to, or it’s not hard to do that it’s not hard to look at better ways to communicate online, right. But then taking that information and applying in a way that directly impacts your life is what is what the mission is, right. That’s the difficult part to it. But then also, like if you’re worried about giving things out for free, and that you you’ll run out of things for people to pay for or for for people to pay you money for. Maybe you should look at yourself in mirror and think if you’re if you really are subject matter experts, subject matter expert, because there’s plenty of information out there like podcasts, like how many podcast episodes you have, Brett, I mean, by the time this goes out, we’ll be around, we’re over 200 I think over to our podcasts and like all the all the other free information that you’ve given out there all the things that you do for free, guess what, that’s just the tip of the iceberg for people. And and it’s the same thing with our practice, like we run a podcast, we give out free information all the time, like we give out free content to people. And it’s just the tip of the iceberg what people can work for. So at some point, like you got to have some form of social proofing. So I think like doing some of these things for free, like a podcast or just giving out information allows people to start developing trust and your product and your brand who you are as a person, which can lead them to be more curious and want to pay for more in depth information from your more in depth coaching from you. So I think if you’re afraid of producing free content, because you won’t be able to charge you got the whole process backwards. And there’s a lot of fear involved with that that needs to be addressed.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:17:57

Two really hard points are hard acts to follow locked in, I’m gonna try my best. I agree with everything you guys are saying. And I said this in conscious coaching, we’re no longer in the information age, we’re in the application age, right, like so what differentiates people now is are you going to apply it like how many people ally you’ve done for every single episode, you in addition to early volunteers before he came on, have created podcast reflections, right? If people go to art of coaching.com/podcast reflections, I would imagine and this isn’t again to demonize them. Some people don’t know, they’re new listeners, some people might do, I would imagine fewer than 10% of our listeners have actually downloaded and done those things. And I get that that would be hard. There’s times even if I was a casual listener, and I was not who I am, like I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t be able to do every episode. But I also have something in me, for better or worse, better and worse, rather than I would at least like before I say something’s not working for me, or whatever, I would at least try to do a handful of them knowing that most people wouldn’t. So like you’ve got to apply, you’ve got to apply, you’ve got to put skin in the game. And our stuff allows you to do that. Another piece is social capital. So there’s people that could listen to this. And maybe this is the whole reason ally, they would have came to Brand Builder. Again, shout out art of coaching.com/brand builder limited spots apply. There, there might be people that are like, Yo, that was why I was gonna come I’m going to save my one to $5,000 Whatever thing you sign up for. And we’d be like, yeah, you could. But now you’re not going to get around 30 To 40 to 50 other people if we decide to open it up that much. Who could be like yes, wait a minute, that had a great idea. But what if this or in my business model? We did that? So you wouldn’t, you would have more social capital. So then think about that. Like, why would you try to save one to $5,000 when you could have just taken this information? Yes. And the rule of improv, met somebody else that could have given you a pricing structure that helps you with that audience that could have helped you make 50 6070 $700,000 For sure. So like you can get around because it’s not just the application age. It’s also the experiential age. Airbnb offers not just places to stay now experiences why Why would you not want to be a wrestler? I don’t worry about that. The other aspect is again, it should show you who we are. I wrote a book on building buy in, which is just trust, right? It’s trust plus commitment, the countless amount of hours we put out of free content, countless. And even if some of you are like, well, it’s not free, you have sponsors. Okay, I’m not we’re not, you know, I’m not Joe Rogan here. Like we’re not getting paid 1000s of dollars in episode and what have you, right? Like, the countless the tons of free information we have, they’re the lead magnets, this that whatever, should actually show you if if our free stuff is that good. And we’re that committed to giving you that much of our time that much of our effort that much of everything for free? Imagine what our paycheck could do? Absolutely. Amen. Like, imagine what our paid stuff could do. So that’s on you, right? That’s on you like, so builds trust, because it should show you that we’re committed to the relationship, are you it’s the application age, that’s going to be the biggest differentiator, social capital, you could do this stuff for free. Or you could come in, and even Ali if they’re in our online courses right in there, like, but that doesn’t allow me to get in the room. Yeah, it does. We got our art of coaching alumni Facebook group, we have our channels by that at some point, somebody might listen to this five years from now, three years from now, we might have an app. So even digitally, you’re in the same room as other people. Anything? Yep.

 

Ali Kershner  1:21:13

Well, I was gonna say it’s like, now it’s all the rage to go to business school online, I would argue that that is so much less valuable than people who went to business school in person, simply because you go to business schools to make connections like to make your network you do not go to business school to learn about finance. Because if you want to do that, Jake, we could probably find a not $14,000 Course I bet I could find a YouTube course on that.

 

Jake  1:21:35

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, Brendan, he, he drilled it right in the head when he was talking about the social capital that you can get like, the world is all about building your network. And that that’ll help you elevate your not just your like your status, but it elevates your capabilities of understanding the world when you get around other people as well. So yeah, I think that that’s a great point to make them.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:21:56

I just want to end this. And I can’t thank you guys enough for coming on of saying like, isn’t it? Isn’t it odd how the episode is essentially, you know, what should I charge for my time? And then we talked about really, it ends up being one of cost, right? What does it cost you to not get in the room where it happens? What does it cost you to not apply something? What does it cost you? If you’re just a harvester of information that doesn’t want put a skin in the game? What does it cost you? If you’re not willing to stand up for yourself and say, Hey, I spent money investing in myself, I learned a lot of lessons the hard way. I did this, and what does it cost you? If I would have listened to everybody that said, Hey, you were 29 or 30? When conscious coaching started coming out? What do you know that you could write a book on? Or hey, you’re 35? What do you know about power dynamics? Let me tell you what it costs me. Yes, I’m 35. But yes, those have been dog years, I’ve been to 30 countries I’ve been taken advantage of I’ve been ripped apart. I’ve lived a year in my life in the hospital and everybody else I’m not special. Jake, you’ve had your own versions. Ali, you’ve had your own versions. Everybody listening has had their own versions. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:22:55

There’s a difference between experience and exposure. And I don’t care whether you’re old, whether young, whatever your experience in this life, your exposure to different variables and the amount that you invested in yourself, what you know, is helpful to people, you just have to be willing to share those answers and you should put a value on it. If you don’t nobody else ever will. Nobody else ever will. Don’t try to convince people beyond a point do just enough to improve your ability to sell, communicate, learn more about your audience. Those are valuable life skills. But no one to cut it off. Like Ali said, no one to cut it off. You will know at the end of the day if our stuff is for you or not Jake stuff is for you or not. Or you listening those people if your stuff is for you or not, guys, I’ll give you the final word if there’s anything else.

 

Jake  1:23:38

No, I mean, I think you I think that’s a great way to nip So yep, I don’t got anything else.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:23:42

Ali. Yeah,

 

Ali Kershner  1:23:43

just trust yourself. That’s it. Trust yourself.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:23:45

All right, I here’s it. Here’s a thing for you guys. Like just again, apply. If this provided any value to you whatsoever. All I’d ask is that you check our stuff out. And if you don’t, then that’s a sales lesson in and of itself. No problem. If you don’t gladly listen to the episode, please give it a ranking or don’t do that either. But then don’t get mad when other when like, you want to help people and other people don’t want to do that thing for you give them the same grace. Because it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person. It doesn’t mean this it just means maybe it’s not for you yet maybe it didn’t help you. But hopefully we provided clarity for that too. If you don’t like our attitudes or our comments or what have you. We wish you the best of luck. We’re grateful for those of you that are in the art of coaching family and what have you. Art coaching.com Art of coaching.com One more time art of coaching.com special guests, Jake Swart where can they reach out to you? Yeah,

 

Jake  1:24:30

they can reach out to me I mean, honestly, you know, it’s an interesting world that we live in but like social media is a great way to reach out to me you know, just docjakeswart as my instagram handle but then also they can find out way more information about us on our on our website, just athletes. potential.com beautiful

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:24:43

guys for Brett Bartholomew Ali Kershner Jake Swart. We appreciate you and we’ll talk to you soon.