In Art Of Coaching Podcast, Podcasts

Living in a moment when competition for our attention is at an all time high makes the medium through which we convey our message absolutely critical. From social media to marketing, the platform we wield (or don’t wield…) can communicate as much about our values as the words themselves. And while this debate is nothing new, today’s guest Kenny Kane has a unique perspective on this issue and many more. 

Kenny is the owner of Oak Park Los Angeles (Home of CrossFit Los Angeles – CFLA) where he and his team have created a paradigm through which gym members are able to transfer the adaptive capacity developed through physical fitness training to life itself.  Kenny also teaches “The Craftsmen’s Workshop,” an intensive coach development program and is the Founder/Host of The Body of Knowledge Podcast (as well as two others). If that wasn’t enough, Kenny was also a dual sport collegiate athlete and comedian before dabbling in martial arts and hip hop dance.

At Art of Coaching, we STRONGLY believe the medium matters. That’s why we created a space for leaders to learn and practice communication away from social media. No ads, no distractions, no fluff – just video based personal interactions with people who want to get better. Join us at and become a part of our new favorite learning space – The AoC All-Access Community. 

In this episode, we cover:

  • Why and how to match your medium with your message
  • Identifying and navigating extractive technology
  • Marketing vs. coaching – does all behavior change need to be ethical?
  • The Diamond Goldfish & how to lead under pressure 
  • Earning your voice – should there be a meritocracy in social media?

Connect with Kenny: 

For more on The Craftsman’s Workshop, email

Via his website:


Kenny Kane  0:01  

I asked him like a basic question because sometimes don’t we all get consumed by our assumptions, assumptions, and we think these assumptions are true. And the assumption in the zeitgeist in the coaching world in the business world is, hey, social media is an amplifier for your voice. It is a way to market and make money, et cetera, et cetera. And it’s a way for you to be seen or heard, etc. Now, I started thinking about that assumption, and then I sort of gone okay, well, if I’m an agent of change, as you say, if my principal job is to be a behavioral modifier for those I lead, shouldn’t I be concerned about how people that I lead are spending their literal time?


Brett Bartholomew  0:59  

Welcome to the Art of coaching podcast, a show aimed at getting to the core of what it takes to change attitudes, behaviors and outcomes in the weight room, boardroom classroom, and everywhere in between. I’m your host, Brett Bartholomew, I’m a performance coach, keynote speaker, and the author of the book conscious coaching. But most importantly, I’m a lifelong student interested in all aspects of human behavior, and communication. I want to thank you for joining me. And now let’s dive into today’s episode.


Okay, let’s slow it down a bit. This isn’t a fitness show. But given my background, having worked with athletes for such a long time, one of the things I’m pervasively asked is, What do you think of CrossFit? I mean, it drives me nuts, guys, I get this question incessantly on social media. And I found no matter how many times I answer it, and how many times I address it. It’s never enough. And for me, this is very much akin to when somebody asked me any type of question, where what they’re really looking for is some sort of binary or black and white answer. Hey, do you prefer cars or SUVs on vacation, you want skiing, or sandy beaches. And listen, I’m a big believer in three things above all else, in this context, great communication, helping people and knowing how to adapt to your environment. So if you do that daily in your life and our business, consider me a supporter, regardless of how you define yourself or your life or business, profit or not. And this is why I’ve long considered my next guest, Kenny Kane to be such a great friend, this guy’s mind moves 1000 miles per hour, yet he always takes the time to slow down, have a meaningful conversation and reciprocate. One of the videos we did together, he was kind enough to host me at one of his facilities where we just did this roundtable discussion for a lot of young coaches who are thinking about getting into strength and conditioning, and experienced ones that were having trouble financially and within their career, and to date is one of our most popular YouTube channels. And it’s just a candid discussion. And if you go to my page, if you just search on YouTube art of coaching, you’re gonna see it, it’s the realities of being a strength coach. And he was nice enough to do that. And what I love about Kenny, as he does not singularly define himself, right, his background spans the world of comedy, and though he’d never once thump his chest at disclosing some of the A listers that are in his circle, this dude knows all of them. And he’s the owner of Oak Park, Los Angeles, home of CrossFit Los Angeles somewhere where again, if you’re a business executive, if you’re just an everyday Joe or Jane, whoever you are, I highly recommend when you get the chance to go check them out. You will get coached up you will get loved up and they’re just great people. He’s also dabbled in martial arts, hip hop dance classes. Oh, and did I mention he was a dual sport athlete in college. So having this background and being able to own a successful business and knowing how to pivot during COVID made him a perfect representative for somebody that needed to get on this show. Another thing I love is many of his coaching practices were influenced by his family, one of which makes a special guests appearance at the end of this episode. I couldn’t be happier to welcome my friend, Kenny Kane, listen closely, because we get passionate in this episode.


Kenny Kane, welcome to the show. 


Kenny Kane  4:30  

Brett Bartholomew. It’s great to be here. 


Brett Bartholomew  4:33  

Everybody. When they heard that turned their volume down in their car. They’re like Jesus, why? Like why do you have to yell? Listen, because it’s Kenny Kane.


Kenny Kane  4:43  

What they don’t know is that when you and I get together, we’re like the two annoying guys like okay, this is gonna be so awesome. We’re gonna talk and then I’m gonna listen and then I’m going to talk and then you’re gonna listen to this can be a lot of listening. And then there might be some ideas. It’s gonna be so cool. be like, Okay, that’s, that’s good. Let’s slow this thing down.


Brett Bartholomew  5:00  

and almost like a bad Jeff Dunham performance, there’s going to be at least four or five different voices going on.


Kenny Kane  5:09  

First of all, Jeff doesn’t really have many bad, 


Brett Bartholomew  5:11  

though he’s the man, I want to have on the show


Kenny Kane  5:14  

Jeff in there, because He is a true mammal when it comes to his vocal dexterity and his capability on stage. But that is thank you for that reference. And if you don’t know who Jeff Dunham  is, do look him up, because it’s time well spent.


Brett Bartholomew  5:28  

Yeah. 100%. And I mean, I want to have him on the show. As a matter of fact, that’s going on my bucket list right now. I wish I could tell this is where I’m going to pretend like I have somebody that reaches out to guests. Vanessa, Vanessa, make make a note. Yep. Get get Jeff Dunham on the show. All right, Vanessa’s, got it. We’re good. We’re good. Nah, man, I’m happy to have you. Thank you for taking the time. 


Kenny Kane  5:47  

Pleasure to be here, man. 


Brett Bartholomew  5:49  

So listen, we’re gonna hit a lot of things here, gray area context coaching communication, I think one thing that made you a no brainer for the show is any of our listeners or new listeners, they know that you know, a lot of us are trying to take the lessons that we get from coaching or performance and put them out into the greater world, right. So no matter what somebody does for a living, they can apply it. And you are the quintessential example of this because you’ve had such a diverse background. I remember the first time I found out speaking of Jeff Dunham, you did comedy, can you tell me a little bit about your comedic background real quick?


Kenny Kane  6:22  

Yeah, I spent 15 years developing my craft as a comedian and 10, of which I spent professionally touring the world of the country primarily, but I got to go to the Middle East a couple times and to Asia once to perform for the troops. So pretty amazing just to be able to kind of like, sit down in the mid 90s, and put a pen to pad and kind of think, Alright, this seems funny to me. And then, you know, kind of, you know, get the air kicked out of me a little bit by taking it to open mics and trying to eventually figure out after years of crafting it to actually convert it into something that’s funny in the opine of others, and then get to work and do that. So I was part of the 1%, if you will, that kind of took the creative, artistic path and turn it into a living and I’m so thankful and blessed that I got that opportunity.


Brett Bartholomew  7:16  

Yeah, I mean, I would love to have been with you on those travels and within that I want to start this off with a hot take related to that one time. And I won’t get it precisely right. It doesn’t matter. But I had said on Twitter, you know, the coaching world is very much like comedy, you know, in comedy. Everybody else thinks every other comedian sucks, you know, and if some other comedian, there’s some other comedians successful people get so mad, at least pre Netflix now they can all help each other get gigs. But I feel like the coaching world was so much the same way that I thought that guy sucks, or that girl, that woman doesn’t know what she’s doing. Did you feel like, there were a lot of similarity, everybody is underpaid. And everybody sucks. But you you know, in comedy, a lot of times,


Kenny Kane  7:59  

comparing both professions, I would say that with absolution, what you’re saying is true. However, I would say that it’s worse with stand ups. I mean, it’s at the pinnacle within of comedians, nonetheless, and then I think the last 10 years with the advent of social media, you know, the community of coaching has shifted, it’s really become easy to be threatened by other people’s work, whereas 10 years ago, and prior to the algorithmic changes, I felt at least professionally, that there was less territorialism than there is currently in the last three to five years, let’s say. And so in the last three to five years, I’ve seen a lot of territorialism and it’s become very conspicuous and interesting to me to see, okay, like you guys, in the end, we’re still trying to do the same thing, and that’s to help people be better. And that’s our commonality. But for some reason, we can lose sight of that very quickly.


Brett Bartholomew  9:00  

Yeah, I mean, it’s like the darkness of data that we don’t really talk about much how it tends to amplify scarcity bias, right like if somebody else is getting more views Well, you know, they’re a threat if somebody else is getting more it used to be if somebody else got more walk-ins or more customers, but now every day, we are reminded at our inadequacy. And, like all admit it like I’ve talked plenty times about my pettiness on the show, and I want to open this up for you. But you know, I always feel bad if I don’t lead by example. I feel like yeah, my wife and I were listening to podcasts the other day in the car. And I noticed I go do you ever notice that it’s almost like if you’re an academic, that talks about behavior change, you immediately have a podcast that’s sponsored by some big company, and it’s already got like 10,000 5 star reviews, and you’ve got to I’m just like, What are we missing here? Because I noticed that obviously, we appreciate behavior changes coaches, right. You’re a change agent. We have to manage behavior and all these things. But man, the academic world, all you got to do is talk. And so I started realizing like, Man, I’m petty. I’m so because I started catching myself I’m like, listen, like, we don’t try to go after a bunch of celebrities or anything like that I’m like, our show is better than that we’re not perfect. I’m not the ship. But our show is better than that, isn’t it? And I’m like, I gotta go crawl on a dark hole because I started getting in my feelings, which is easier to do than ever before. Now. I mean, you’re not on social media anymore. For that reason did any of that just start to consume you at all? 


Kenny Kane  10:29  

Well, I just look, I got to a point with myself personally. And professionally, I’ve written a couple of articles on it via our old podcast, the body of knowledge, with our good friend Andy Galpin. And I got to a point where I just I asked him, like a basic question, because sometimes don’t we all get consumed by our assumptions, we start to make assumptions. And we think these assumptions are true. And the assumption and the zeitgeist of the coaching world and the business world is, hey, social media is an amplifier for your voice, it is a way to market and make money, etc, etc. And it’s a way for you to be seen or heard, etc. Now, I started thinking about that assumption. And then I started going, Okay, well, if I’m an agent of change, as you say, and if my principal job is to be a behavioral modifier for those I lead, shouldn’t I be concerned about how people that I lead are spending their literal time? So then I just started researching, it turns out that if you’re on two major social mediums, that’s about two hours a day, if you’re on four, that’s about three hours a day for the average consumer 3 billion plus globally. So right, so for the general masses, if I were to say to you, hey, on the low end, I’m gonna get 14 hours a week back 56 hours a month, Brett of your time back. 50s. Any coach listening to this will go, if my clients had 56 hours of headspace, what can I do with them? I started thinking about that. And then I started realizing, okay, well, if it’s capturing people’s real time, and my question is open, like, if on the average, I’m just talking about, I’m not talking about people’s opinions or emotions about I’m just talking about math. Like if on average, most people are spending two to three hours a day on these mediums. And you’re to ask somebody in a reflective state, not interactive with the social media state, like, you know, when the phone’s been down for 30 45 minutes, hey, tomorrow, will you willingly commit two to three hours to that stuff, and then the next day, and then the next day, and then the next day? And then you know, in a year, you’re gonna commit several 100 hours workweeks committed to that, like, is that where you want to do it? And so it’s just a matter of time. So then there’s an adjacent, heavily related issue of attention. So human beings, if we study like psychology, or criminal biology, we understand that human beings have a limited attentional capacity. Right. So most people after sharpest have three to four hours a day of really high level productivity. 


So if this starts to tank a little bit, you know, and if you’re occupying headspace by these things that are inherently aggravating to the nervous system, then you’re getting kind of cranked up without knowing that you’re cranked up and you’re depleting puts a natural limited resource, your very ability to pay attention. So now you’ve redirected real time, which has value for all humans, because it’s the only thing that across all humans, we’re all limited by, like our time is limited. That is like as far as our understanding of physics. That’s a truth.


Brett Bartholomew  14:05  



Kenny Kane  14:05  

So if we’re reallocating our time and then redirecting our attention and then with what happens with it, if there’s a negative amplitude of emotionality, so if anxiety so with every minute of every 10 minutes spent on these mediums, the degree of anxiety and depression both spike so anxiety and depression, right anxiety, you’ve got this fear the future depression, you’ve got this like pain of the past and so now you’re dealing with this impossible thing, unless you’ve got a therapist alongside you 24/7. So people are getting a natural beat down of anxiety and depression with the time spent so, in my mind, I need people to be positively charged because if I’m a coach, if I’m a trainer and I’m asking somebody to effort to physically effort and there they are depleted, Because of constant upregulation on these mediums as just a part of their life, like that’s a leadership wise, I started asking myself, well, now I’m not aware of real information that is actually harmful to humans. It’s and again, I’m not talking about like, well, we can make it make social media positive, it’s like, no, the net effect is negative, we’re taking real time amplifying negative emotions by amplitude, not by minor degrees is a plus, it’s like these things are spiking dramatically. So now if you have depressed, anxious people practicing being depressed and anxious at two to three hours a day, like you as a behavioral modifier, you now you’re starting to push rocks uphill, and that Hills getting steeper and the rocks getting bigger. So now let’s go to the fourth thing. If what you do matters, how you pay attention matters, how you deploy your Human Resources matter. And so if these mediums are incredibly skilled at channeling the most impulsive part of our being, versus our most intentional part, you start practicing being impulsive versus being intentional. Now, to me, just as a case of logic, do you as a coach want people to be impulsive? or intentional? And use that as your heuristic? Do you want people to have available time? Do you want people to have available positive attention? Do you want people to have less anxiety and less depression? Brett, it became an ethical conversation for me. And at the time, I was a heretic, like I had so many colleagues going, you’re making a mistake, there’s so much good can be done on these mediums. 


And, in my experience, and it’s long, I grew up in the fitness industry, I’ve been coaching my literally my entire life. Well, since I was 14, I don’t know. In the last decade, I’ve seen the people that I’ve interacted with have there’s just less, there’s less human there. I don’t know how else to describe it. But there’s people are smoked right now. And I don’t want to blame it entirely on social media. There’s, a lot of other things at play, too. But I will say if you if you’re committing 56 hours a month to any day, you’re gonna get good at it. And if that thing is like, on the net, not specifically with each well, I get to reach out to my cousin and I get to raise GoFundMe for the person who died and Okay, okay, I get it. And there’s those things, but I’m just saying the net, what is the net, and the net, for 3 billion people is negative. And for those of us in the leadership world, for those of us in the coaching world, that’s a real thing. And so what I would just simply challenge is like I took myself off three years ago, because I said, This is no way to spend my life. My time is challenged, as it is Brett. Like, I’ve got three kids, I’ve got a brick and mortar business. Like that is plenty to keep me busy. And I’m trying to really work on people’s leadership, hygiene, how they use their physical training to make them better human beings and life. That’s my cause. That’s why I want to own a business. That’s why I want coaches to make a meaningful difference in the lives of those that they lead, then why the hell would I have them repurpose our athletes time in alternate universes? Because it’s just again, you can’t control it. Once it’s out there. It spends so quickly and it’s so powerful. And there’s a level of humility. I think that as people start to understand and truly understand the interplay between economics, and the prime directive of any company, of our anthropological and social dynamics, coupled with this, thing of time like it, it doesn’t have these principal mediums it we call it extractive technology, they don’t have our best selves in mind, they can’t by design. 


So for me and with our business, I realized as a brick and mortar business, what our services is in the flesh coaching and seeing eyeball to eyeball, and that still brings tremendous value to the team that we lead they live good middle income lives, in our small little gym in Santa Monica, able to provide for the families and with a very resilient community and culture that despite all this stuff with COVID, you know, everybody stuck with us coaches were employed, people were served. And we didn’t, rely on, you know, the four or five major social media platforms to do any of that we’re more profitable than we’ve ever been. And I will say, as an owner of a business, if I am looking at, hey, where’s the best allocation of the leadership of my people? Is it In our case, it’s coaching, like that’s what we do. That’s the literal value of what we do. So is your time spent preparing a post about something about the, you know, about the coaching? Or is it spent coaching, like, and these are just time functions, like what’s the majority of its spent doing? And so we just reallocated that time. And so by taking ourselves off of five mediums, we immediately have way more headspace to do the thing that we’re good at, and that we care about doing in the first place, and that we’re committed to, and that our people come to us for. So, you know, our route is perhaps not the route for everybody. But I would challenge for all I would challenge assumptions that we just swallow whole. And this whole idea that the social media is the way for business to exist and to thrive. I would challenge that assumption, just flat out just by experience, like we’ve been offered been dark for over two years, two and a half years now, as a business. I’ve been dark for three plus years. Like, you know, I’m not going back.


Brett Bartholomew  21:40  

Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of intriguing touch points here. I’m going to talk some things out because this is a real discussion, right? And there’s, I could do the good podcast thing and just ask you a question based off of that, and then continue going, but I think there’s too many juicy nugs to extract there that we’ve got to touch. I think one thing I want to make sure people hear and I don’t know, maybe you feel like this isn’t what you’re saying. But I think it’s so critical for people to have a fit between what they’re doing. And this is what I mean. I think a lot of times, people you and I want to talk about context, right? We’re here. And if we talk about context, you know, one definition is the situation circumstances and setting where like an event occurs. That’s, yeah, I mean, there are many definitions. But that’s one in the literature. And I think the issue is when people sure social media can be damning and what have you. And we’ve done a lot of episodes on social media. But I think the bigger issue if we get to the root of that, quote, unquote, virus is that people want to be heard, they want to communicate with one another, they want to interact, but they’re choosing the wrong medium. And a lot of the times they have wrong expectations of that medium. If we look at components of the communication process, we look at alright there’s a people having a conversation, in this case, it’s you and me. There’s the message, right? That’s the content itself. And many different themes come out of each episode. There’s the medium, right? This is the means of conveying the message, we’re doing this in a podcast or audio format. There’s the channel, what connects those two, obviously, the internet right here, the code, the system of that meeting, noise feedback, so on and so forth. So where I find there to be an issue is when people go onto social media to try to have quote unquote, meaningful discussions and not realizing they’re using the wrong medium. And that leads to a lot of the vitriol that leads to a lot of the feelings and that leads to a lot of noise. But here’s the thing is like this is the other problem I’ve had in the past is on one end, I, especially in the coaching community, because a lot of other professions have learned how to use it a little bit more productively. But there’s some coaches that were insular, I’ve heard it a million times, I’m too busy coaching, I’m too busy in the trenches. I’m, in the meantime, I follow like a brain surgeon who has time to like, tweet out some stuff or share some stuff. And then on the other hand, there’s people that you’re 100%, right, they’re inundated. 


And I’ve been there too, because what I realized, you know, in any business, you have the core of what you do, you have the audience that hungers for it, and then you have to have a distribution system. And this is no different, right? If this is where Uber Eats is great for restaurants and dashpass, and things like that. Wouldn’t that be cool if I could be like, and there are sponsors of the episode. I’m not that big time yet. But everybody’s got to have a distribution system. If you make candy, you’ve got to distribute that Amazon distributes. And so the tricky thing is where I found myself getting inundated in the past is we’re a small family owned company. But guess what our contents gotta get out there. And we’ve got to help people understand our workshops are out there and other things. So in the past, we’ve had to use social media to do those things. But then what I realize is that the majority of people that just follow me on social media, they’re not the ones usually buying into our product. They’re not diving deeper, right? They’re kind of like and I appreciate any of you that are following me on social media. So here For me out here, if you just we have data that suggests people that just follow me on social media alone, they haven’t read my book, they don’t do the podcast, they generally don’t go into other aspects of our ecosystem. Well, that makes sense. My social media isn’t sexy. I’m not trying to teach people how to coach on social media, because like you said, I’ve realized that it’s just not a good fit. It’s not where you can go in depth. And then we found people that listen to the podcast or on the newsletter. Well, they are a lot of our core audience, they’re our art of coaching army, they’re those things, and they tend to get okay. Yeah, I might have found Brett on social media, but there’s a deeper conversation to be had. And then they support our grassroots business there. I love what you’re saying about the fact that when people, this isn’t a battle of like, social media, no social media, it’s does it fit your context? Are you like, do you have incorrect expectations of the medium? Because it’s almost like a coach using a poor exercise selection with a client or a business using the wrong mass marketing strategy for the wrong audience. It’s not the right medium for everything. And people have to be more discerning about that. Thoughts on that?


Kenny Kane  26:07  

Yeah. I mean, two things. One. So the medium is the message. And that’s, I think, really critical for people to understand. And now there’s so many choices for mediums. And we conflate which one is the one that we shouldn’t be deploying? And again, I just stripped everything down. I said, I’m a coach, I come in person coach, and then there’s other business assumptions. Right? So let’s, so we got to understand the economy of tech. And, I want to be really clear here on sort of a heuristic for the listenership to understand what is this idea of extractive technology versus regenerative technology, and thanks to a former student of mine, Tristan Harris, who started the Center for humane technology, and was the one that left Google to start this whole movement. He, you know, he really helped engineer this consideration. And so if the technologies are extractive, and this is important for you, this is important for me, and presumably, this is important for our audience, because we can’t get away from this basic fact that most of us are intending to help modify people’s behavior that’s at the core of all this. But if this technology is extractive and on the net, negatively manipulating behavior, that’s a real consequence. To us asking our populations to spend time there you go from it being Hey, I like to use this because it helps my business to This is becoming an ethical question.


Brett Bartholomew  27:56  

And when you say ethical, quite elaborate on that a little bit.


Kenny Kane  27:59  

So ethics, look what is so you’ve got, like, if you read any of the, you know, further, have you read diamond goldfish? 


Brett Bartholomew  28:07  

Uh Ah, 


Kenny Kane  28:08  

it’s a fantastic book. And I highly recommended 


Brett Bartholomew  28:11  

say that again, one more time for our listeners, 


Kenny Kane  28:12  

the diamond goldfish, 


Brett Bartholomew  28:14  

the diamond goldfish.


Kenny Kane  28:15  

Yeah. And it’s a derivative of the people who created market force, which is one of the two psychometrics that we use for our team development at Oak Park, in Santa Monica. So it’s what I use for the coaches, but the what’s the golden rule, like,  do no harm. So the humanity, the ethics of humanity, for 1000s of years have been based on that. So it becomes an ethical question, if your actions are harmful. Now, in real time, it doesn’t feel like that for anybody. But this is what I say. And it’s ethical. So if you know that on the net, you’re telling people to go somewhere where they get toxified emotionally, and therefore are less of their best self. Like, to me, Brett, that is literally the opposite of what coaches are trying to do. 


Brett Bartholomew  29:08  

Yeah, well, I think it’s just evolved into something that people don’t you know, understand it.


Kenny Kane  29:14  

And listen, I spent I took a sabbatical to understand this. I took three months off to like, literally understand, I had my coaches work, all my clients, I just went and studied this for just try to really wrap my head around it. And once I learned, I’m like, No, I’m not going back. Like, and so one of my roles right now is to communicate this as succinctly as possible, but also like, and it’s not even an issue of judgment, because I can guarantee that there are people going this guy, he doesn’t see the good that I’m doing and I get it like a truly I get it, your intent is not harmful. But the intent and outcome can often be different and it is time for coaches to like start to recognize some of that. So that is and when we understand that, like if we’re violating a rule that will be with us for 1000s of years, assuming that humanity exists, and a couple 1000 years, but that fundamental rule that has governed humanity, do no harm is being violated in real time. And this is harmful.


Brett Bartholomew  30:14  

So no, no, by all means keep going. You’re on a good one.


Kenny Kane  30:18  

Yeah. So that’s one. So and then coming back to sort of what you were talking about, you were talking about the medium and using the medium. And so you’re absolutely right, like, how are we what is our, the why of our business, and the cause of our business, so use cynics sort of, you know, his most recent book and his one from 11 years ago, or whatever it was. So if you’ve got a good wife for your business, and you have a cause, then these things should be, you know, overlapping to help engineer your decision making process. And if that has integrity, then you can figure out how you want to market whatever it is, you’re marketing. And so again, this is going to come across as a little bit confusing for people because it’s, you know, I’m not saying not to Market, I’m just saying, Be cautious of the pools in which you market because what you’re trying to do may have a negative effect. adjacently, what you’ve described, Brett, the people who consume your social media, don’t invest in your products. Now, isn’t that just, and that’s the biggest scam of the whole thing. Because the ads are sold in such a way that they want the entrepreneur to feel, okay, I’m gonna get a net return on this, because I’m gonna get the views, I’m gonna get the likes all these other things, whether you’re using these things or not, that’s still the assumption.


Brett Bartholomew  31:55  

Now I know, real quick, I do have to clarify on that, right? People that just consume social media and aren’t in our ecosystem anywhere, right? There are people that didn’t know a lot about us that saw stuff on social media and said, Oh, that’s interesting. And then they went deeper and went deeper. And we generally do have a good return on our ads. And like, that’s tricky, too. Because, right, like, people can think ads or or user data is, a bad thing, always. And, we can get into that if you want, like, what we steal, when we run a course or what have you, and we don’t do it all the time, we still are gonna have ads, because at the end of the day, there’s people that want our product that aren’t gonna see it otherwise, but the algorithm controls that, right? Like,


Kenny Kane  32:39  

listen, I have no problem with ads, as long as the people knowing, that they’re getting advertisements are also aware that they’re getting behaviorally manipulated, which is not the case of capitalism at this moment. And so again, I don’t want this show to be about capitalism. But in the end, like, the more coach starts to understand the overlap of what historical capitalism is, and what current capitalism are, there are two different things 


Brett Bartholomew  33:04  

I like it. So do you think behavioral capitalism, do you think behavioral modification or manipulation all behavioral manipulation is bad?


Kenny Kane  33:14  

If it is, if it’s not explicitly agreed to buy the person engaging. So again, that’s an ethical line.


Brett Bartholomew  33:24  

So let’s say you


Kenny Kane  33:26  

15 years 25 years ago, you’re watching the Super Bowl. Doritos. Great, I get it. Now, the Doritos is tucked into our subconscious somewhere. And these alternate things that will still lead us to Doritos, but we didn’t know that it was about Doritos, right? That’s a different, that’s a whole different level. And so that’s what people don’t understand, is the level of sophistication that it’s getting us to Doritos. And so and again, like we can, I mean, I’m glad to do a whole nother show on this because I know you also want to talk about other things. 


Brett Bartholomew  34:00  

No, this is good. We’re gonna go where the irons high, keep rolling. Cool.


Kenny Kane  34:04  

So you know, I’m concerned, I don’t want to say that advertising is bad, that’s not what I’m saying. But I’m saying if you’re being behaviorally modified without knowledge of that behavioral modification, I think that’s significant. Let’s say let’s just put it in the context of coaching. Hey, you and I know and just perhaps most of the leaders out there and coaches out there know that like, often sometimes you don’t need to tell your athlete exactly what you’re doing to get them to where they gotta go. But also, how is trust earned over time? Hey, this is where I was trying to get you to go. You know, at one point you said you wanted to get there. You showed up on this one day. You just weren’t there. So I figured out this little clever little thing to kind of get you there, but in the end, we got there. So at one point the athlete made an agreement. I am coming to you to help me I modify my behaviors, that is an explicit agreement, I’m going to pay you for that service. You do you, Brett, you do you, Kenny, you do your professional job, and you help me get to point B, there’ll be some days where you go, this is our workout and you show it to them. There are other days ago, hey, this is, you know what, come on over here, we’re gonna do this little thing. And then you backdoor it, but you still get them there. And that is at one point explicitly agreed on, versus you never even knowing that the agreement exists in the first place, and you getting over to some other location, not knowing that you’re getting your attention and resources are getting deployed at a third party’s interest, not your own.


Brett Bartholomew  35:46  

Hey, guys, we’ll get back to Kenny in a moment. Listen, since we’re talking about the medium being the message and how critical it is, to find ways to connect with others in a way that brings true value and more context to situations, I want to invite you to our art of coaching all access channel. Now what this is, is if you go to, it’s a way for you to communicate directly with me and some of the most dedicated members of our community. In a video first come as you are way that is social media proof. Every week, I’m dropping new content, and we’re having conversations that matter most in your life right now. And this is for all walks of life, it doesn’t matter if you own your own business, if you’re a dentist, if you’re a doctor, if you’re a coach, if you’re somebody that values social interaction, and you value Q and A’s, and you want direct responses, and you don’t want to have to worry about video editing or graphics or anything, literally, you just pick up your phone, it’s as simple as FaceTime with one of your loved ones. And please make sure to go to It’s where you can find me every single week sharing some of the most in depth discussions on all things coaching, and communication. All right, back to Kenny.


Kenny Kane  37:03  

So at one point, the athlete made an agreement, I am coming to you to help me modify my behaviors. That is an explicit agreement, I’m going to pay you for that service. You do you, Brett, you do you, Kenny, you do your professional job, and you help me get to point B, there’ll be some days where you go, this is our workout show terms or other days ago, hey, this is you know what, come on over here, we’re gonna do this little thing. And then you backdoor it, but you still get them there. And that is at one point explicitly agreed on, versus you never even knowing that the agreement exists in the first place and you getting over to some other location, not knowing that you’re getting your attention and resources are getting deployed at a third party’s interest, not your own.


Brett Bartholomew  37:58  

Well, let me share an example of this because I think what you’re saying now is I think this is awesome, the way you’re clarifying. So I wrote down a couple words here action, agreement and reward. Alright, so here’s something where I experienced this firsthand exactly what you’re talking about. So when we pivoted in 2017 and I decided you know what, I’m going to take kind of the lessons I’ve learned as a performance coach out and other industries no different than you know Jocko has from the military to what have you and all these different things right? I’m going to try that what I found and this is what this sparked a negative emotions and plenty of anxiety in me, you know, and I’m somebody that’s usually pretty positive about most parts of social media. I’m realistic about what it is. But here’s the thing, right? you’re spot on about this as I started pivoting, and I had a relatively strong following like engagement I started noticing that if I put certain human behavior psychology buy in related content out there, yeah, like peaks and valleys, you know, pretty consistently high. The minute I showed a video with Julius peppers or me training and all Pro or somebody like that, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, it lit up, right, it lit up. And so what I started to notice is, despite the I don’t know at the time of this recording 95,000 followers or whatever measly amount I have right now, I noticed that the majority of them don’t see my posts, unless it is essentially what Instagram wants me to show them. So for example, there were about six Fridays in a row I put out coaching content communication, content, psychology related content, behavior, anything, I lost it, I can see the accounts engage. One day I put out a video and I know it’s what Instagram wants, because it’s rewarded it based on past behavior, because we’re the majority of my followers while people from 2012 before I got into more behavior change that were coaches. So the video no matter what it is, if it’s training related, it spikes it hits everybody’s page, a ton of likes this and that and an awful lot of negative comments too write because there’s people, one guy said, Well, you didn’t Well Why would you have them do this and I go, buddy, this was from like, you know, six months ago and he said, Well, you should show all your progressions and, it Stokes this anger and I go, buddy, I, you know, I got out of bed this morning and brush my teeth. And I think Dr. Dre made a beat for a song, you don’t see that on social media, you don’t need to see everything on social media. But it led to this action of like, Alright, I’m either gonna post coaching related behavior change content, because that’s what my business is. Now, I’m not just an exercise or you know, fitness business. It like there’s an agreement that like, I should be able to post that content. But the reward doesn’t always come because Instagram goes, Ah, we’d like you to share exercise videos, are you training pro athletes, because that’s what we know, your previous audience wanted to see. But as that like fluctuates, and as more and more people follow us for the right reason, because of what we’re doing at art of coaching, you know, the goal is to see less of that, but it’s not up to us. It’s what that algorithm wants to show people because a lot of people just say, we don’t see your stuff. And so that’s a good example of it would frustrate me, because it makes you think that your audience isn’t supporting you. Yet, we’d see support in tremendous numbers, other places, this podcast was one of them. And so it makes you think what you’re doing isn’t working, when in reality, it’s completely about that medium, and how it’s manipulating it, as opposed to our podcasts and our newsletter, which we’ve seen substantial growth.


Kenny Kane  41:19  

And again, here Brett like to simplify all of this for everybody listening, what Brett, like what I’m hearing, you say Brett is like, this podcast does a good job of going deep and social is about Brett. And so and there’s a randomness to that you don’t control. And so but with this, like there’s a depth that you can go to, and look, in the end, if we’re talking about like, Can we really cover like, the just how, just how challenging it is to get anybody if they’re adherence and consistent, and the dream athlete from point A to point B, that’s hard work. And so what if you’re reallocating and all these different things, there’s just less deployable resources from you. And, you know, for me, I’ve always I’ve been podcasting off and on since 2012, I’ve had like, I’ve always enjoyed this medium. And it’s a different medium. This is not an extractive medium yet, when Jaron Lanier who’s one of the pioneers of like understanding. And he’s one of the thinkers that got me thinking he was a designer in Silicon Valley that just kind of left and one of the many expats that have kind of left Silicon Valley, frustrated, just going what we created was intended to be a utopian creation and it’s turning out to be very quickly a dystopian one. And many are arguing like our cognitive health is even more of a serious issue than than environmental health. And I given the last five years or less, like several, I don’t know if I would necessarily disagree with that. So, you know, we’re just really talking about the fundamentals of attentional resources, behavioral change, like these things to me get simple and it’s done in a very exerting way, you know, you just really got to work to help people that are willing to grow. And, you know, growth is such an interesting concept. In the coaching space. We have a saying at the gym, I accidentally coined this phrase, like some years ago, Brian Mackenzie was doing a breath certification at our gym back in 2017. And I and he said something and we had athletes go into the two rooms and we’re doing all this like deep breathing exercises. Change is inevitable growth is optional. And he goes like, Bro, why? And I go, when I say, he goes, I go, he goes that maintenances play that back. I’m like, change is inevitable growth is optional.


Brett Bartholomew  44:10  

Sounds like a Thanos quote sounds like Thanos said that 


Kenny Kane  44:13  

totally. And, so, you know, with that, I you know, obviously been a big fan of duacs as you have for some time, but I just started thinking about like, you know, this growth mindset thing is kind of overplayed but under worked aspect of the professional coach and professional leader. And so, you know, what I realize is that, you know, to grow something to grow someone to grow a business. It has the same form gradients that change does. The distinction between change and growth is consciousness is mindfulness is situational awareness. And so, you know, as a mental model, what we do at Oak Park, and what you know, we’ve deployed in recent years with our community is like, look, let’s just chunk down all this training all this stuff that you want to grow. So why? And you’ve talked about that I’ve talked about that. A lot of coaches talk about that when we’re no newbies, or we’re no pioneers in that regard, for sure. The next thing is go, Okay, well, what sort of actions support that in any thoughtful coaches asking those questions on their own. But then the third part, and the fourth part become very significant? What relationships are you’re surrounding yourself with to help you be consistent about those behavior changes that you’re seeking? And then what sort of systemic and environmental cues do you need? What sort of environment do you need to be in? And what sort of situation do you need to be in to help foster that? And so what you see Brett in that sort of mental model, the first two things are the athlete, or the CEOs I do this, most of my work now is we’re CEOs and this is what we do. They’re going through some merger, and they, we sit with, I sit with them on a whiteboard, they just go through this, they go, Okay, what’s my purpose? To do this thing? There we go. Okay. What sort of actions do I need? What things do I need to do that I don’t yet have? What skills? What competencies? What sort of sincerity? Do I need to develop? What sort of blind spots so I needed to develop? Then we go, okay, what kind of relational help do I need? And that typically starts with me, and then I’ll resource them to different professionals, if needed. We have a mental skills coach that we work with at our gym very specifically on these, like higher end sort of situations. And then, what kind of environmental cues do you need, and then in that situation with those four things, if it, let’s call them, if each four of those things are greenlit somebody is going to grow, and that’s consciousness, that’s how we’re going, Okay, I’ve got purpose, my actions, matches, and people around me are supporting this, and the environmental cues that I’m getting. And you and I both know, professional athletes that didn’t have the right environmental cues, had all the other stuff. They had all the motivation, they had all the purpose, but didn’t quite get the or they had you in their pocket. But some of their other relationships weren’t so helpful. And so you know, what happens after midnight? You know, 


Brett Bartholomew  47:24  

yeah, no, 100 per and with you saying these things, it’s interesting. Thinking about the medium being the message, the relationships, the process of all these pieces. You mentioned your podcast, just a quick question, like I found, you know, as opposed to social media, I love the podcasting medium. do you? are you off the podcast as well? 


Kenny Kane  47:45  

No, no, I love to me this is like, the way that communication is intended.


Brett Bartholomew  47:47  

But with that, and I don’t mean to cut you off, but I just like I have to for a moment. Well, with that. Here’s one thing I’m scared of. I am scared that in some ways podcasting could become social media. And I don’t mean that in the vitriol side of things that is people are gonna take mediums where they take them. What I mean is this, I think it’s dangerous. And kudos to Ryan Holiday. I think he wrote this a while ago, but he wrote some op ed about why people should not start a podcast. And I think, when people hear me say that, they think it’s because there’s so many of them. And I don’t know what the stat is, it varies every damn time I look it up. But it’s something ridiculous. I mean, there’s there’s 10s of 1000s started every week, right? And I remember hearing, even when we surveyed our audience and said, Should we start one, you know, the vast majority said, yeah, absolutely. But of course, there’s some that don’t, because they’re like, everybody’s got a story. Everybody’s got there’s too many podcasts or what have you. But actually, what he alluded to is no, don’t do it, because there’s too many hobbyists. And when you get into it, you kind of realize that and this is tricky, and it might be polarizing. So maybe you can be the good guy to my bad guy. I didn’t, I didn’t realize it. But there are like being a guest. And you guys ran. I mean, you did it. So professionally. I remember going first of all, thank you for even thinking of having me on back in the day, man and but go into your place. We had headsets, good audio, yes, thoughtful questions, you did some research. That’s important. That’s important and is dedicated in conversation, what I had found in other podcasts experiences, and not all but some where I was the guest way before we started, ours is almost no research, they’d say that you worked at some place that you hadn’t worked at in 10 years, you know, that they didn’t even listen to your responses. It was just like going down the list of questions. And that’s what it’s on one end, that’s bad. And on the other end, there’s people’s not understanding of like, I’m a big fan of there’s a number of ones on NPR that I like, and everybody knows the big ones. They don’t need help advertising. So I’m not gonna say their name. But they don’t realize that a lot of those have like 15 16 different people working on it, like their production crews. So nobody’s saying that you need to be that we’ve had people that listen to ours, and they’re like, why don’t you do this? So why don’t you do what this person doesn’t like? Yeah, cuz we don’t have 18 people working on the show, bud but what we can do is have conversations about kind of tough stuff. And what we did want to do as a differentiator is not go for the same celebrities, everybody else went. But for just people that have to work through this shit. You know, you got to work through it, you got to figure it out. It’s unscripted. But it does scare me that the podcast space can get because every day, there’s somebody like, Hey, would you come on, and I’m always honored at the invite. But it’s there somebody else the other day, they’re like, it’s my first show. And I think it’d be really great for the show to have a relatively bigger name on it. And what I wanted to say is, I’m honored and I did I go, but that’s the wrong way to think about it. You know, because what’s good for the goose isn’t good for the gander. What’s good for your show isn’t always good for the guests. What you want to do is have guests on that are, are willing to go certain places have conversations, you need to be just enough prepared, but not. And then you also have to find a balance of I have friends that are like, Oh, why don’t you have me on I’m like, Dude, this isn’t a personal thing. You know, like we it’s not get a show on and I’m not Eminem, trying to sign d 12. And just be like all my buddies come on the podcast. But do you ever worry about that just hobbyists inundating something, or, and just not caring about it, and then it becoming this shit show where nobody even listen to podcasts anymore?


Kenny Kane  51:14  

Given that we started so long ago, like, you know, like I mentioned, I’ve been podcasting for almost a decade now. And you know, so it really didn’t start getting popular until 2015 2016. And at that point, like I had already kind of circulated two shows. And then I were preparing the third the body of knowledge. And I, it’s, frankly, one of the reasons why Andy and I’ve been reluctant to start back up because it just manages so many podcasts in the space. And that’s also why we chose to do our show seasonally, just because out of respect for people’s time, like if you’ve got something to say, say it in a meaningful way, in a context, which if somebody gave it time would make some sense, and leave it at that. Now, you know, I’ve had a whole season for prep for body of knowledge, but but I’m still like, admittedly, like at this point, even though I’ve been podcasting forever, like, I don’t know, if big for these very reasons. And because the lanes are so flooded. Now. It is like one of these things where I have to be really cautious to do it for the right reasons. And so one of the things that happens, you said what you’re describing is, like preparation favors victory. So you get a and also, I’m a big advocate, sometimes of meritocracy versus democracy. And technology, platforms have democratized the ability to people the ability for people to share their voice, but what’s really interesting about that right now, and it’s very much part of our time, and I want to kind of like shift to the side for just a second, I want to talk about it, you got to read this book, and diamond goldfish, it’s just it’s a really interesting take. But, you know, we’re living in a time where everybody wants to have a voice. And what’s interesting about that, is it like, I don’t want to be the guy that goes, No, you got to earn your voice. And at the same time, there is a process to hear your voice. And it’s the process isn’t the same for everybody. But the process is typically time under the hood, or reps under the hood, in making a car work. And so, you know, that’s where this concept to me of like a meritocracy there’s no way to govern, like who gets a podcast or who’s not. And what’s even more get like, concerning is you admitted earlier in the show, the things that you posted weren’t your prime men. Not only are you working with an athlete isn’t what Brett Bartholomew is about, like it’s a piece of the thing, but that’s not and those are the most like posts,


Brett Bartholomew  54:05  

it’s part of the origin but it’s not where we’re going into like you evolve


Kenny Kane  54:08  

but that’s not Look at you got the you got the trunk and you got the extremities that’s an extremity, but it’s not the trunk. It’s not the core. And so, now, you know, in this moment, like, Am I concerned? Yeah, like, I’m really trying to discipline myself from going on your show going. Not everybody deserves a voice because that’s not what I’m trying to say. But what I’m also trying to say is like, Look, if you’re doing this, like what is the like, why, like really why and at this moment of time, you know, there’s we have, as humanity evolves as society fluctuates, of what social currency means, like we’re living in this time where, you know, you need to hear me the way that I want to be heard. Right. And so as an adjunct to that technology platforms, including and especially podcasting, it makes it very available just the same thing with social media, very easy to do these things like it says, it’s very greased to kind of get onto the platforms, it’s not horribly difficult to start. And when I first started podcasting, it was like, a little bit trickier. And now it’s just way easier. And is that a good thing? Like? Well, it’s mixed, is what it is. And in the meantime, there’s just a lot to kind of work through. And what I want to kind of circle back to is this idea from, Diamond goldfish about this, concept of the diamond wool. All right, do you mind if I kind of go there for a second, 


Brett Bartholomew  55:53  

please, by all means. 


Kenny Kane  55:55  

So you know, like, the first rule is you’re not trying to do any harm. So the intent for people like everybody listening to the show, is probably very much like you and I, there’s a deep inherent desire to help others. Like, if you want to see the soul, like that’s what’s in there. Right. But then, you know, the golden rule is, treat others the way that you’d want to be treated. And you’ve done some really interesting work, you know, like, your book is very much about like, unintentionally, well, that’s good. But other people might want to be treated differently.


Brett Bartholomew  56:37  

Yeah, I’m not a huge fan of that rule. Because it’s not everybody wants to be treated the same way.


Kenny Kane  56:42  

So let’s so then we get to the third rule, treat other people how they wanted to be treated. So in the, in your context, and some of the leadership that you’ve offered, I would say that is very much at the heart of conscious coaching, like you’ve talked about that in different ways, but it’s like, be able to hear meet people where they’re at. But we’re also living in a time where everybody wants to be met, where they’re at, and the literal process of doing that is unintentionally harmful?


Brett Bartholomew  57:13  

Well, because it’s meet people where they’re at, but what they forget is that it’s a dyad. Right? interaction, and relationships are a two part thing. So I think what people think, and they misinterpret, it is meet people where I’m at, they think, like, oh, that means certainly, no, no, no, I’m gonna meet you there, but you’re gonna meet me somewhere else as well. Like, we’ve got to meet each other there. And so it’s, and you see this, like, commitment isn’t convenient. This is like when people DM or whatever, and they, you know, they say, hey, they want an answer to life’s question. And the DM, well, I’d like to meet that person where they’re at. But I also tell them, hey, like, this is probably a discussion, I don’t know that I can answer this on a DM, here’s some resources, and then go ahead.


Kenny Kane  57:58  

Funny enough. I mean, to that point, very specifically, the fourth rule in this, like, emotional intelligence way of leading is managing yourself under pressure, and addressing the needs of others to avoid their triggers. So you’re gonna have things that like, your own biology, like, and you and I have done enough work with psychometrics to understand, you know, like, I get, you know, I’m very, like, I test sort of influential, I get triggered if, like, people get bogged down in structure, because I’m just like, we gotta move, we got to see the vision of this thing. And we got to keep this thing moving. Like there’s, you know, I’m a clock in my


Brett Bartholomew  58:49  

You’re Tony Stark, you’re Tony Stark.


Kenny Kane  58:52  

Whereas other people have, like a structure. And they’re like, I need to know the structure. I’m, like, I just described the structure is the vision that I just described, that’s our why we’re going there. We’re going there now. And they’re like, Yeah, But what are we doing? And how are we doing it? I’m like, didn’t I answer that with why? And, when? And they’re like, No, I’m wondering what and how guy, you’re, and I’m just sitting there going, Oh, okay. That’s my blind spot. But the point is, is I know that under pressure, that this helps me in real time that my natural defaults are such that I know when I’m not getting through to somebody, I immediately gotta go counterclockwise and start asking basic questions like, What am I trying to communicate? How am I doing? And then immediately when I do that, I started getting more effective as a leader, as a coach as somebody who’s developing others. Now, the point of all this is that you were just describing a scenario where under pressure, so and this is where social media will say, I want to look all this in like, Well, man, it’s a crazy connection.


Brett Bartholomew  59:48  

Jeff Dunham you got to bring Jeff Dunham into it. That’s how it started.


Kenny Kane  59:53  

And so, under pressure, which most also mediums inherently induce is some biological pressure. That’s Paleolithic, we can do nothing about that. So you’re communicating in a medium that with this other guy that can’t, you can’t, you literally can’t hear each other. And both you’re feeling pressure, he’s feeling pressure. And you guys, you can’t make any sense of hearing each other, it is a miss completely. So again, and try to loop this back to the role of podcast and with you on the celebration of Ryan Holiday like I really appreciate and it is very specifically why I’ve taken myself off of social like look. In the show, I’ve had a lot to say like, but in limited formats. I don’t. The one thing that stand up comedy taught me and one of the primary reasons I stepped away from it, Brett was that there was this guy inside me that needed to chew on the attention. And I think I’m a little bit unique in the sense of I see social media and I kind of go man, that was the same head trip that I went through as a stand up comedian. And I and what I learned and one of the reasons why I got away from it is it like as much as I love it as a craft as much as I love it as an art, the business of it. And playing in that game of always being liked literally can only lead to some serious psychological destruction and emotional destruction. And that is not compelling to me for a life well lived. So retiring from stand up comedy at the apex of my career, I was getting auditions for like leads for different basically sitcom, so I had a different auditioning for movies as headlining shows like I was there man as part of the 1%. And I just said, No, this is going to really wreck me if and I have tools, I resources to handle those demands. But I’ve just like, No, this is like wanting to be liked all the time. And sometimes I look at the social media and I don’t want to reduce it to people who want to be liked and therefore massively reductionist, as we kind of wrap up this the show like that’s not the intent here. But I will say like, if you’re doing this, upon reflection for something that resembles that the outcome may not match what your intention is. And as an exercise of discipline, as an exercise of leadership, I would encourage anybody who’s like looking at, you know, being hurt to ask. Okay, great. And what are you trying to say? And why? And who are you to say it, because that matters? To me, it matters.


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:10  

Yeah, and I think you did a great job of consolidating that I think, you know, hopefully the listeners take this away, because that’s why we always try to make sure that there’s a so what you know, and for those of you that are sports fans, or what have you, and we’ll give another example, I just think that, you know, it’s always important to have a long term strategy and contingency with any of the drills you choose, right? Like if you’re a coach, you’re gonna think about that. And sometimes the best plays call during the game don’t look like game breakers, but they fulfill their purpose by setting up the Go ahead, field goal, well, time blitz or whatever. And this stuff very much is chess, not checkers? You know. And I think that when we talk about the medium being the message you have to think about, because it because it is again, it’s a fine line. I just know too many people that take this one or both extremes, like you said, they’re all inundated in social media or other aspects, or they’re completely off that and they demonize everything, and I just think being insular is just as bad, you know, because it doesn’t being insular. It’s very easy, you know, for an argument example, you know, I have a friend that they have like a texting group, right, it’s like a WhatsApp group with only people in their circle. Well, I think that’s just as insidious because then you’re kind of around this echo chamber. Now that’s different if those people and maybe they do they go out and invest in being in other groups or what have you. I think one of the best things that I did you talked about yours was getting off social media. Mine was, you know, I before COVID, I went to a lot of continuing ed, that was nothing related to my field, but very related to my field, you know, and so that’s fine. I’m gonna have my coterie of friends that I interact with on Marco Polo or whatever, but like, I have no interest in only being around our ideas. I have no interest in only being in sports performance clinics, just like I would not just want to be only in psychology. behavior change clinics, the interconnectivity is critical. And so I think people just have to, and it’s a good call to action for people to look at the mediums that they’re in. And they’re engaging in and saying, How could these be diversified? How can they be made more purposeful? Or which ones do I need to get rid of? Because it’s not serving me in a particular way? That’s the best fit for my strategy. Anything to add on that point?


Kenny Kane  1:05:25  

Yeah, I think that, you know, if, and this is your So what’d you call it?


Brett Bartholomew  1:05:30  

Yeah, well, I mean, I don’t call or we could call it whatever you want, would call the wipsie doo. But yeah, just kind of when people say, Great conversation, so what we always put podcast reflections up, that people can download notes, and it makes them they have to actually think about the episodes as opposed to just, you know, sitting there and mindlessly devising them. So like on podcast, reflection, Kenny, you’ll have your very own sheet, so little things that we put on there for them to think about and challenge themselves with?


Kenny Kane  1:05:58  

Well, you know, an old mentor, once said to me, are your actions contributed the joy of the world or to the misery, and that is a, it’s just been a great sort of leadership lesson for me to understand situational awareness. And that, you know, when I step, it’s not just others are influenced. And when I step that also requires some responsibility on my part, as a leader, and you know, leadership requires depth and breadth of many things. And so if in the end, you know, you’re contributing to the joy of the world, in your actions, you know, it very much ties into this Aristotelian concept of what is a man to know happiness. And Aristotle basically suggested that, you know, that is somebody who contributes to the society in which he lives and knows that that work is meaningful. And so, you know, these are evergreen sort of principles that have obviously existed in one case for 2500 years. And so, we have an opportunity when I think about what a coach can mean, what a leader can mean, I’ll always reflect on my mom’s funeral in 2015. She was inducted into the Swimming Hall of Fame in 1981. And on her plaque, you know, it says she was one of the most successful coaches in any sport of all time, she was one of the most winningest coaches and, you know, at the time, he was synchronized swimming, but as a youth athlete, she was also a global level swimmer, she routinely beat men and open water swim races in the late 40s and early 50s, when no women did such thing, in the open waters of the San Francisco Bay, for example, just a beast, a complete beast, and she coached everything she coached. I grew up in one of the best soccer playing areas in the country. And when you’re one of our coaches had a family emergency, and she was the only person to step up and fill in, all of us went on to play collegiate D one soccer, and she stepped in and she just figured out how to coach because she was so competitive. She could just she knew human kinetics, she knew movement, but at her funeral, there were kids five, there were seniors in their mid 90s. highly influenced by her. There were at the people that eulogize her were was a professional basketball coach, and a collegiate soccer coach amongst other gold medal Olympians who had been coached by her along the decades. And I just saw in that moment, like this is the influence that a coach can have. This is joy over time, this has meaning over time, when there’s about 1000 people who are coming to celebrate this person. And I look at that, and I just kind of go wow, like all of us, everybody who’s listening can have that kind of net effect. But start with the end in mind. And you know, this is as you say yeah, yeah. This is definitely chess. And we shouldn’t be thinking from our death.


Brett Bartholomew  1:09:26  

incredibly impactful. And that is I wish your mom was so round. I would love to interview her.


Kenny Kane  1:09:32  

You she would smoke it. Just kick ass on this thing and kick your ass. She didn’t take much. She didn’t take much. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:09:40  

Before I let you go Kenny, talk to us a little bit about your Craftsman workshop. Where can people get more involved directly with what you do?


Kenny Kane  1:09:47  

Yeah. So if anybody is interested in developing their craft as a coach with any of the stuff that we talked about today, we don’t go deep into the uses or not uses of social media per se but we do go heavily into the development of We’re working with professional coaches who want to add a level of depth and complexity to their craft. We do that with something called the craftsmans workshop done at our gym in Santa Monica. And it’s typically done over 10 days to two weeks. If you want information on that You have to excuse me, but my my boys are just coming home now but And in the title L. Thank you, Maxie, thank you, buddy. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:10:38  

This is the stuff you can only get on a live podcast. 


Kenny Kane  1:10:41  

You want to say hi to Brad. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:10:42  

There we go. Now the audience gets to meet your son.


Kenny Kane  1:10:46  

Okay. So, so much for that he’s he saw himself and he’s like, I’m not normally he looks at the Hey Dor. How you doin’ if any of the coaches are interested in checking that out, we do a very low volume, high touch experience and every person that’s come through one of your former guests anymore, listen to that we’ve had some really remarkable people come through the workshop. And it’s something that I’m, as a colleague of yours, very proud to offer those in our worlds because we haven’t not left somebody profoundly grown as we say if change is inevitable growth is optional. We do the optional growth thing in this craftsmans workshop. We love working with coaches who want to go really,


Brett Bartholomew  1:11:35  

really deep. Perfect. Well, that information is noted. It’ll be in our show notes as always, and Kenny, I appreciate you taking the time man, I know you got a lot to manage out there, especially during this time with COVID and your family. So thank you for sharing a few with us.


Kenny Kane  1:11:49  

Brett total pleasure and thank you everybody for tuning in.


Brett Bartholomew  1:11:53  

Guys is Brett Bartholomew and Kenny Kane for the art of coaching podcast, signing off

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