Unless you keep the same job from the time you leave school until the time you retire, you’re bound to experience change. Like a personal relationship, moving up within or leaving one workplace culture to join another requires understanding, adaptation and most importantly communication.
So how do you go from being just a tactician to manager/director who needs to understand both the minutia AND the bigger picture?
Our guest today, Jenny Noiles, the Performance Director at Mayo Clinic Orthopedics and Sports Medicine (Rochester, MN), paints us a picture of this transition while discussing how to establish credibility without being a robot. Afterall, lacking warmth, our competence holds little weight.
We cover:
- Demonstrating credibility without being a robot
- How to use anxiety in a productive manner
- Leaving a dream job for a relationship & “following your heart”
- The importance of shared experiences and being relatable
- Why leaders need to be both heroes and villains
Connect with Jenny:
Via instagram: @jennynoiles
Like Jenny said, you can’t fake reps. So if you think communication is important, you need to come to an Apprenticeship, ASAP! We create a place where failure is expected and celebrated using role play to practice navigating the obstacles you face in both your career and your personal life.
This is the ONLY way to truly build your communication skills. Visit artofcoaching.com/apprenticeships for a list of cities we will be visiting this summer!!
TRANSCRIPTION
Brett Bartholomew 0:01
Guys, so nice to have you sitting back down with us for another conversation. I’m here with my friend Jenny Noiles, Jenny, welcome to the show.
Jenny Noiles 0:08
Thanks, Brett for having me.
Brett Bartholomew 0:10
Yes, it’s my pleasure. If you guys listen to the intro, Jenny has been the closest thing that I really had as a mentor when I first started as a strength and conditioning coach, a formal mentor. And one of the things that’s always struck me about her, and I know Jenny, it’s always awkward hearing things about yourself like this, is the strength of her communication skills, the nuances of her compassion, which we’ll talk about, the distinction between that and empathy on the show, and just the overall level of professionalism she’s always exhibited, regardless of the environment she’s in.
She’s one of the most adaptable people I know. Jenny. Now my question to you is, do you view yourself as any of those things when you hear me reference you as adaptable on a strong communicator, you know, inevitably, there’s some imposter phenomenon and things like that. But what does it sound like to hear yourself described that way?
Jenny Noiles 1:02
Well, it’s a huge compliment. But I think also, now that I’m a little bit older, right, to hear someone say those things about me actually feels really good, because, to be honest, that those are things that I intentionally try to work on, right? I think, you know, some people are very gifted with just National Communication, you know, abilities. You know, some people just, they know what empathy is. They know what compassion is, right? And by no means am I suggesting I’m a robot, but I recognize very quickly, probably even when I was just younger, we moved around a lot when I was a kid that, you know, kind of the quickest way to make friends is to better understand the person that’s in front of you
And that most of the times when there’s conflict, it has something to do with communication, not that, hey, this person doesn’t like me. It really came down to the nuts and bolts of communication. And so yeah, when I hear that someone thinks I’m doing well at those things, it feels good, because I’ve tried to be very intentional with it, not gimmicky. I mean, not fake. But you know, if you want to be good at something, you have to articulate that to yourself, say it out loud, hey, I want to be good at x, and then put the reps in practice it, learn from it. So, yeah, no, I appreciate the confidence booster first thing in the morning.
Brett Bartholomew 2:32
Yeah. Well, I think, you know, it’s my pleasure. I think it just, it always struck me. We talk a lot about the necessary balance on this show and in our other content between technical expertise and interpersonal expertise. And these things are hard for some people to quantify, but I just remember your range in particular when I was an intern, and, you know, I’d see in the morning working out like a madman, you know, but with purpose and intent, right? Like you knew everything there was to know about the body and how it responded to different stressors, or what have you, you could come make jokes and kind of be goofy, and what have you. We all have that kind of persona with me.
And then the next moment, you’re leading some of Major League Baseball’s best, or the NFL combines best through drills with no drop of like respect or command, presence loss, right? You’re just able to be you. And that’s where I’d like to go to start this off, is when we talk a lot about a great communicator. The books that I read early on, a lot of these leadership books made it sound like you could never have a disfluency. So for example, if I ever said like, or uh, and we know that in abundance, those things can be really irritating, we also get told that you have to speak with a certain kind of tone and this, but what we’re not told is no, you can actually, like you said, you don’t need to be a robot.
You can have moments of awkwardness and goofiness yet still maintain command of a room. I mean, you think of people even like Elon Musk. I mean, not a great orator, but still has a presence about him. Now, you’re a far cry from Elon Musk in terms of your command of the English language, right? Like, you crush it, but like, what is that balance for you between I want to be respected and I want to make sure my presence is known, but I’m still cool with kind of being goofy, being awkward, Jenny, and having that balance of competence and warmth?
Jenny Noiles 4:20
Right, I think you know, what people want to hear is just always be your authentic self. And what I would say to that is, know your authentic self, right? But remember, communication isn’t a one way street, right? I can be goofy as heck, but I could also read the room, read this situation, read the individual that I’m communicating to or trying to communicate to, that Whoa, that I might have to tone that down just a little bit until we get to get to know each other, right? So I think it’s be authentic, but first and foremost, know who you are, know what your strengths are, know how you’d like to be, but also recognize how you might like to be.
You may just need to tone it down or wait till day three, you know, in that interaction with someone, because really, at the end of the day, I think sometimes we’re looking for instant connection with people. But it’s not black and white. There’s some individual you click with immediately, whether professionally, personally in your relationships with people. There’s others like, think back to you know, some of your most challenging clients, right? Whether it’s in the weight room or at school or at your job, right? And then a year later, you both are giggling about Whoa, remember we didn’t necessarily see eye to eye, yet we’ve become great friends and great colleagues, right?
So I think it’s don’t fight who you are. Know who you are. Be authentic in your interactions with people, but also understand how you may want to communicate. Try to seek to understand how that other person likes to be communicated to, right? And so one of the things I remember really early on in my coaching career, working with a major league baseball team, and I thought to myself, Oh, man, I just I have to be rigid. I have to be on point, on time, execute. Well, there was no kind of playful banter. And then I just remember there were, I said something funny in one of the training groups. And I remember one of the most like veteran players had been in the league forever.
He’s like, Thank God she has a sense of humor. We were waiting for this to come out, right? They’re like, Jen, you kick our every day. But you know, we see you every day for like, 12 weeks. Wanna have some fun too, right? And so I realized there I hadn’t let my authentic, natural self show I was so consumed about getting the buy in from the technical perspective, and that’s super important, right? Like you need to know your stuff, regardless of what your profession is. It kind of awards you the opportunity then to bring a little bit more of the playfulness, but that was a great lesson. And for me, after that, I didn’t wait as long to show who I was, right?
Because that was also it’s just part of my coaching style. It’s a part of me. And so that first, like month of being like this rigid coach, I didn’t like it, you know, but I thought I kind of had to do it to get buy in from the athletes. And I would say, I still talk to those guys. I haven’t worked with them for 10 years, but there’s still kind of this tech stream that goes along, you know, and we just reminisce about these fun times training, right? That’s, awesome to me. That’s long term relationships. You made an impact on someone.
Brett Bartholomew 8:04
Yeah, you touched on a number of good threads there. One of which, you know, when we think of Coach, education and learning to coach, and we always use the term coach and lead synonymously on the podcast, is, a lot of the research shows that most people learn how to coach this by observing other coaches, or sometimes just experiential, right? Like, it’s funny, like athletes practice, but coaches don’t really, and I’ve said this on the show before. You know, athletes certainly don’t just get better at playing their sport by playing their sport. Yet we expect coaches to get better at coaching just by coaching. We don’t always get feedback and evaluations and things we might internally, but those things are incredibly biased
But one of the things that you said there is you felt like you had to be rigid, and I feel like that’s so many coaches. You know, they want instant credibility, they want predictability in their environment, and they want respect, inherently, three things life is never going to award us with instantly. Why do you think that in a field, let’s talk about strength and conditioning right now that knows and understands if I want a training adaptation, if this person needs to jump higher, run faster, get fitter, we know that’s going to take time. But on the other hand, we think there is such a thing as Instant Buy in instant connection and instant, everything else from the interpersonal side, where’s that dissonance there that we don’t understand, that this takes time, and this takes strategy, and it’s not just going to come from a title or an appearance thing?
Jenny Noiles 9:32
Yeah, no, I think that’s a really good question. I’ve thought about it, right? And it’s like 2020, vision. You look, back at past interactions, you know, I have interactions with, you know, whether professionally, personally, but still today, I’m embarrassed about, I’m like, I did not handle that situation well, or others that I was wow I was really proud of how I communicated and interacted in that situation and kind of reflecting on your question, and it’s one that maybe I haven’t posed exactly the same way to myself, but I’ve thought about it is there’s like we need this validation, right from other people, not everyone.
I’d say for me, I have a lot of confidence in myself at the end of the day. I know my mom loves me, right? You know, for some people, that’s enough, whereas it, I don’t know if it’s the field of strength and conditioning or it’s the individuals like myself that find myself in this field, that you want, this confirmation that, No, you’re good. You’re good at this, you know, but what I’ve come to realize is, the more that you want that kind of confirmation from other people, it becomes a less about your client, and it becomes all about you. And for me, and not to sound cliche, but it’s, a service industry, right?
You’re in it. You want to be in it for the right reasons. And I never wanted my own personal insecurity to get in the way of myself professionally, right? Why do I need that person to like me? Or why do I need that person to be demonstrative about their like, Oh, that was an awesome session, right? It’s like, at the end of the day, you know the science of strength and conditioning, you bring people along. They make gains, they make changes, right? Same thing with just your communication. Not everyone’s gonna like you or take to you day one? Yeah. I mean, it’s that’s kind of my own introspection about it, is it just because I feel the need to be liked right away, that’s just gonna set you up for a lot of heartache, professionally and personally, right?
Brett Bartholomew 11:58
Yeah, you touch on a lot of pieces there that you know, especially the term self validation, and I think even self completion, I think people are inherently always trying to figure out what version of themselves is, the version they want to be, which is the importance of knowing yourself right, like you contributed to conscious coaching. And there was a reason for that. And in that book, we talk a lot about, I mean, one of the first chapters is know yourself. And I’ve always thought that if you’re getting into a leadership role or a coaching role, or you’re taking a certain job with a certain organization because you feel like you need that to become who you want to be, as opposed to you knowing who you are, right?
Like, if you know your quote, unquote, coaching philosophy, before you have an understanding of your personal identity, you’re in trouble. You know, was there an aspect of your upbringing? Was there an aspect of your professional career where you really got to know yourself on a deeper level? You had to face some hard truths? You know, to give you an example, I always talk about, for me, at 14, it was being hospitalized when you’re a year of your life in this place, you know, a lot of time to kind of get to know your demons. And certainly nobody needs to be hospitalized and they don’t need to be shot, and they don’t need to have something like that. But like, when was a time in your career or your life where you had that first true look at yourself internally and are like, Yo, we need to figure this part of you out. Does that make sense?
Jenny Noiles 13:26
Yeah, no, no, it does. And you know, so for myself. So I have a younger brother, and mom and dad, and my parents, at a very young age, wanted to travel the world, right? My mom’s a school teacher. Dad’s an engineer. And so for me, I grew up, every three to four years with drastic change. We didn’t just move down the street. We moved to Africa. We moved somewhere else, right? And so for me, at a very young age, this idea of change is a constant. And I just remember, you know, when you’re 10, you can kind of throw a temper tantrum, like Dad, I’m not moving and sitting, you know, with all these boxes, I’m not going, he’s like, Well, Jennifer, you’re 10, you have to come with us.
And I just, I remember my mom saying, Why do you want to live like with fear and anxiety, like everyone goes through tough things, that’s a part of life, but that’s also who makes you you. But there’s an upside to everything, and sometimes you might have to look a little harder for it. Sometimes it’s more obvious. And so I think at a very young age, my parents allowed my brother and I to mourn things, but very quickly pivot and turn to see what are you gaining? So kind of focus on the positive. And, you know, some people might say, well, that’s, you’re just hiding. You know. The fundamental issue with like kids and anxiety, but you’re always going to have anxiety in your life. You know, sometimes it’s a little, sometimes it’s a lot, like, I still, you know, I have anxiety about things and I know it sounds cliche, but it’s really how you handle that, right?
And so perfect example, I was so comfortable working at our facilities at Exos, working with professional athletes, working with strength coaches and then at like 34 it’s like, Hey, we’re going to send you off to Minnesota to go work at the Mayo Clinic in their sports medicine department. Do you know how, like, insecure I felt about that and like that was very anxiety producing, because, again, all of a sudden, everything that was comfortable and familiar to me was like, Hey, I’m working at a hospital now. Holy crap. The Mayo Clinic has renowned surgeons that I’m going to be talking to. Are they going to like me? Are they going to respect me, right?
So all those things we kind of talked about earlier, but then it was kind of all right. The week before, I didn’t sleep very well. The night before I had to show up, I, like, had five different alarms on because I didn’t want to show up late, but I don’t think I slept at all. But guess what? I didn’t die, right? So I think, like for me, part of you know, getting back to your question, is change was very familiar to myself and my family, but more importantly, it was my parents just told us, you’re strong, you can do this. And so for me, that’s I’m very fortunate. I have that kind of silent confidence that, hey, no matter how bad things get, like, there will be an upside.
It will get better. It might get better tomorrow, or it might get better in a year from now. But how you control how you feel in the moment. And that’s that’s for me, even as an adult like, and in my career, like there’s moments where I get angry at my staff, there’s moments where I feel sad, I feel anxious, I just know don’t react in the moment, absorb it, get outside, do something you love, come back with a fresh perspective.
Brett Bartholomew 17:15
And there’s so many great threads there as well, touching on anxiety for a moment and how you deal with change, you know, we we’ve done an article and several videos on why people can be resistant to change, right? And one of those things is a lack of vision or confidence that you can deal with it effectively. So one it sounds like your mother was, is an incredible person to be able to say, Yeah, mourn this, and then let’s move on. You can deal with this and change is only going to become more of an inevitable part of our lives, in an increasingly fast paced kind of way here, you know, and and so being able to deal with that. And then I love that you mentioned the term anxiety.
Lots of anxiety and leadership that goes not talked about, right? It just does. I mean, for every book on Steve Jobs or for somebody else, there’s 20 more that could have been written on the ugly truth of the doubts these enigmatic people had in their lives and in ways that that pulled, you know, on their on like their emotions and their decision making, like I always think about, you know, could you imagine what it would be like being Harriet Tubman and trying to lead, or I think of Spartacus. I went down this rabbit hole of the Spartacus wars because I’m a huge history nerd. This Thracian slave had to lead people that spoke as many as 60 different languages at the time against the Roman military. And it speaks to the anxieties that I think a lot of coaches have, like you said earlier, self acceptance.
What’s my performance like as a coach or a leader? Did people like that session? How’d that meeting go? How was I in the boardroom? I think also education, which is something I want to talk about with you, our finances, our own health. You know, when you said you have anxieties, and we all do, right? They’re ubiquitous. What categorically, are some of those anxieties that pull on you the most? Like, for me, it’s time. I’m very aware that time is finite because of a lot of things I experienced early. I want that to open the door for an example for you. What are some things that you feel increasingly anxious about, sometimes even if you’ve learned how to deal with it extraordinarily well at this point.
Jenny Noiles 19:23
Yeah, I mean, I would probably share that one time, right? It’s crazy how some days you’re like, Man, this day is going on forever. This is awesome. But then the very next day, you’re like, holy crap. Five years just passed, and what have I achieved? You know, I think when I was younger, I had anxiety about certain milestones, right? You know, I think very rarely, I’ve just sat and been like, Huh? That was enough today, right? Because the next thought was, if I’m thinking this is enough, then holy cow, am I getting lazy, right? You know, am I not like aiming high enough, right? And that was all self produced anxiety, right? Where it I put this pressure on myself, right? And I think we probably all do that from a career perspective.
We think that, you know, certain things have to happen in order for other things to happen. So that would cause me a lot of anxiety. I think now, in bringing up covid A little bit. You know, a lot of us were just sidelined for a little while, right? And you’re not hurt, you’re not injured, you’re just all sudden, you’re sidelined because everyone slowed down, and then the anxiety was fear of the unknown, right? Am I going to have a job still. What is that job going to look like? Am I going to like it? But then the personal thing started to creep in. I’ve always been so career driven, right? And it’s thinking, have I done enough personally? You look around, everyone’s having kids, everyone’s getting married, and that had never been like an anxiety producing thing to me
Every time I pop up on the Facebook or Instagram, I’m like, holy crap I gotta shut this down, because then all of a sudden this anxiety was causing me to lose confidence. And that’s where it’s interesting, because anxiety can be a very great motivator for change, right? But it can also have the opposite effect of kind of making you stall or feel static or stuck, right? And so I think you know, for me, the biggest thing is when I have anxiety about myself, and am I good enough? Am I doing enough, right? You can’t allow it to impact your confidence in yourself, right? Because then you get nowhere, right? You know? And like, I just remember again, my mom saying, like, what are you freaking out about? You can’t control any of these things right now.
And all sudden, like you’re worried because you haven’t been on a date in a year. She’s like, this isn’t the Jennifer Noiles I know. Like, stop letting the situational anxiety, like, impact your whole life or perspective of yourself, right? And so I think it’s just one of those things. Like, I heard someone say, it sounds so cliche, but you know, how do you eat an elephant, like, one bite at a time, oh, yeah, whatever. But, I mean, it’s true, right? Life and Work and people, it can become very overwhelming. So change the question, simplify the problem.
And just that’s one thing I’ve just learned with covid, is just take, be grateful for what you have, and each day, you know, check something off, whether it’s the simple thing of, hey, I rewarded myself with Starbucks today, as I’m holding my Starbucks cup, right? I had a hard work day yesterday at work, I was like, You know what? I’m gonna go for a run in the morning. I get to talk to my friend Brett. Soon, I’m gonna grab myself a coffee. And you know, I feel centered right now.
Brett Bartholomew 23:16
Yeah, and that’s important to find that anchor. And as always, you brought up numerous things. So this is going to be kind of a choose your destiny. When I was a kid, I played the video game Mortal Kombat a lot, and it was like, Oh, you have to choose your destiny. And it is who you fought. You talked about dating, you talked about anxiety. I think there’s, I don’t think I know, because I talked to them a lot. A lot of our audience are the types of folks that easily can get lost in their work. Actually, I’m choosing your destiny for you. Screw it. They can easily get lost in their work, myself included, right?
I think something that’s not talked about enough is inherently, there’s always a lot of talk. You said it. We’re in a service based industry, and in a service based industry, you’re supposed to be selfless, but to be selfless, you still need to have a self and you do need to be selfish. But there’s people that they sometimes neglect, relationships, intimacy, things can fall through the wayside. They may play the role of husband or wife or partner or what have you. Yet, some of it is performative, right? Like and we have moments where we’re probably not giving our all to those moments, and it’s because we want to be the best that are, and we think like, oh, once I get here and I can give my family this, or I can do this, or I’ll have more time and money, and then I can go on more dates and what have you, then inevitably, none of those days ever come where we’re ever satisfied.
Talk to me about a time where you lost yourself in your work so much where, yeah, I mean, like, how did you manage that? Like, I haven’t been on a date, and even though your mom said, Well, that’s not the Jenny, I know it’s like, well, yeah, mom, but I so value companionship, and let’s talk about this too. Within this, you’re in a job where it’s shared, it’s two way, but you have to be in control, right? Being a coach and a leader, even if you’re not this. I don’t mean like you’re demanding and a tyrant, but you’re in that dominant position. And there are plenty of times where we don’t always want to be dominant and in control, and we want to just be able to let loose and relax. So like, talk to me about how you manage some of those things, or struggled with it even,
Jenny Noiles 25:22
oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think back to so there was a really challenging time for me personally. It was my first management job, you know, and I was super excited about it. I got to manage, you know, a facility still got to coach, right? And, you know, at the time I had, I had a great relationship, great boyfriend, but super supportive, right? And then, I mean, that’s what you want in a companion, right? You can be into, or at least for myself, independent yet respectful of each other. And I just remember the job required me to move from Los Angeles to Dallas. And, you know, I was 27, 28 at the time, you know, had been dating, living with my boyfriend for a couple years, right?
And I just said to him, like, what do I do? He’s like, Well, you know, what you got to do? You got to go do this job. This is, what you want. And we made it work. But then a year later, you know, he tried to get a job in Texas, and it was really challenging. And, I guess I was like, 29 or 30, then was, like, made the decision of, hey, at this moment in time, I love my career. I love managing. I got a taste of it. I want it. But I think my boyfriend and I were at that point where we wanted to be together and we still needed to figure out, like, were we the one for each other, right? So I ended up, you know, do it taking a lateral move, moving back to California. And personally, I was very happy. Professionally, I again, I had that anxiety because, like, oh my gosh, are they going to look me over. I went with my heart, you know, and saying that out loud, I like, I feel, I still kind of feel embarrassed saying that, like, Oh, you went with your heart. You shouldn’t.
Brett Bartholomew 27:32
You shouldn’t, because that makes you more relatable to those you lead.
Jenny Noiles 27:36
So I had all these rules in my head, you know, about how emotional you could or couldn’t be in your work decisions, right? You know my boyfriend and I, we’re not together anymore, but you know, obviously you mourn past relationships. It you know, we left each other, you know, well, it was a healthy breakup, but you know that was really tough, right? Because, you know I had the support. I pursued something from a career perspective. Had I not been with him, and you think you go through these, what if situations, I probably still would have been managing that facility. But guess what? Like, 10 years later, it has not hurt my career, and it helped me. I made a decision to focus on the personal at the time, right?
And that was really hard. So I think later, I chose not to allow personal to influence my professional and now I’m in a situation again where it’s like, well, that’s not good either because you’ve just, you value companionship, you value relationships, but that boyfriend or that girlfriend or that significant other isn’t just going to appear like we’re not in high school or college anymore. If that’s important to you, got to put yourself out there, right? And I think I’ve just fallen off the band the wagon, right, off the horse, right? And it that’s anxiety producing, right? But, yeah, we went through a lot of little, little divots.
Brett Bartholomew 29:08
No, it’s very spot on. Because we, you talked about, you know, you found somebody, you had this connection, you had an opportunity to lead. It’s an inevitable toll, that fork in the road to where you can’t really choose to go in the middle, you know. And so you have to find a way to make that work. I mean, Liz and I were very much similar in that when I moved from Pensacola to Arizona, and she was still at Nebraska, and this is my wife, or anybody listening, you know, I hadn’t had a whole lot of luck with long distance relationships. I had one in grad school didn’t work out. Tried doing one for a little bit when I first started my job down in Pensacola, Florida, you know, didn’t work out.
And so here I was again now as somebody that, all right, well, you know, I feel affection for but now I’m taking this job in Phoenix. Is this going to be able to work? And at one point in time, Liz came down and had to work like three jobs, you know. Because she wanted to kind of pay her own way to do that as we’re trying to figure out if our relationship works. And then, you know, five years later, we’re moving to LA and then Atlanta and and that’s the inevitable mess, right? That’s the mess of where you have to say, Okay, is it the right gear for the right Hill? Is this right time? Is this right person? Those things inevitably show themselves. And I think you did the great thing of saying, Hey, we’re gonna go with your heart this time, and then we’re also gonna have to be a little bit more pragmatic other times, because people tend to find ways to get done if that’s gonna last.
Now, it’s tricky because, like you said, you don’t want to be cliche, and you want to say, Oh, well, if it’s meant to be, it’s meant to be horseshit, you know, horseshit, like, you have to work like crazy. And I think one thing that I had to look at as somebody that was an aspiring leader and coach is, how was I about to look at athletes that came in and they were downtrodden and they had a breakup and they had this and I’m supposed to sit here and like, give them advice if I hadn’t gone through it myself, right?
And that’s the thing that I’d encourage other folks, I hope they listen to when you said that is when people don’t experience something themselves going with their heart, a broken relationship, a bad this, a bad that, but they’re just like, if they don’t have direct experience with it, but they just kind of have seen it from afar. You’re not really in a place to be as relatable, so when we’re trying to get instant buy in, when we’re trying to get more credibility, well, guess what? That comes from being a real person, and that comes from having multiple connecting points, not just by being empathetic and acting like you care and starting with why, starting with why, doesn’t mean shit the people can’t relate to you,
Jenny Noiles 31:40
Right, right. And I think, you know, you probably have a lot of listeners, who you might be, the leader, the supervisor, the light lead coach, and your client or your colleagues are 10 years older than you, right? So then what do you do? Right? It’s, you know, I thought about that a lot, because I was very fortunate at a young age to be put in some situations where I was the youngest, but I had the most, you know, responsibility or leadership, right? And you can’t fake experience. You can’t fake reps that you didn’t have. So then the next best thing is be a good listener, right? Because, again, like to your point, I probably did work with some, you know, athletes or clients that maybe went through a divorce, you know, and they would talk about it in the training group
But you’re right, like, I couldn’t build my relationship with them based on, like, a shared experience. It’s more of hey, can I listen to this individual and during this session, make Hey, so and so is just having a really crappy day, right? And just that’s where the empathy came, or there’s the seeking to understand, right? Like, I think that’s the other thing is, like, again, speaking from a sports performance experience, I just remember an older veteran hockey player asked me a question. I didn’t know the answer, and I just say, you know, rich, like, that’s a really good question. Like, let me talk to my colleagues about it, you know, I don’t want to mislead you in my response.
And his response to me was, like, he didn’t have very many teeth from like, hockey. He had this huge smile. He’s, like, that’s it. No BS with this chick, you know. And like, so to me, that was just confirmation of, like, I couldn’t speak to what he was asking, so I wasn’t going to fake it. That doesn’t mean that I lost confidence in myself. It just I had a better understanding of, hey, I need to bring in some other expertise with what he’s asking, you know, and so I think it’s just, you can’t people can smell BS, right? And it’d be really bad for your relationships to be built on BS, because eventually it will implode in my personal like, experience,
Brett Bartholomew 34:14
Oh, you’re spot on. And speaking about relationships with this, you talked now about management and switching roles, something else a lot of leaders, especially today, know about, you know. And I remember this caused some conflict in my family starting out. And I think of that JR Tolkien quote, All who wander are not lost, but I remember specifically, whether it was my first
Jenny Noiles 34:38
I actually have that you can’t see it, but I’ll show it to you later, but I have that on a little script right there. Not all those who wonder are lost. That’s awesome that you just brought that up.
Brett Bartholomew 34:52
You’re fine. We have the same thing in our house, and a lot of that was spanned from I remember when I first told my family, and this was very early. Hey, I have to go take this internship or I’m doing this. You know, my brother had accused me of saying, like, oh, you know, you’re running from your home and you’re doing this, and you you’re being selfish. You should be able to stay at home and do your job and, you know, love him, but he didn’t understand that that’s not the sports performance world, and that’s really not the way of many professions now.No disrespect to people that are able to stay in their hometown and do that. My brother’s done wonderful things with restaurants in our hometown of Omaha. Nebraska gives back to that community, and there are many people that do that, farmers, folks in a variety of industries, what have you.
But in our field, that wasn’t the case, right? I went away to college. I went and did internships. I’ve moved damn near 15 times. And inevitably, when you move or you go into a new organization, there’s that new culture. There’s new folks you’re working with. You have to adapt. You have to figure out, no matter how successful or unsuccessful I was, somewhere else, here’s this new start, this fresh change, akin to an intimate relationship. How did you manage the nuances of going from somebody who was a coach, that you’re the main practitioner coaching all these groups, to doing what scares so many coaches, to then moving to a leadership role where, yeah, you’re still going to coach, but not as much.
Now that was in the same organization, and then yet again, you went to another world renowned organization, all still under the same umbrella, but very different, and he had to speak another language, and you had to overcome different biases and things. Because, let’s be honest, sports performance isn’t always as respected as field like you know, like the medical field or the military, because not a lot of people understand it. So there’s a lot there, and that question is disjointed, because it’s the only way it can be formed. How did you manage that mess and the relationships inherent to those different roles?
Jenny Noiles 36:51
Yeah,. Because I think you know, the first step going from coach to manager. I always knew I wanted to make that step, and I always felt like I would do a really good job leading people, right? I don’t know, because I think I’ve shared this example with you. You know, you’ll watch like American Idol, and you’re just floored when, like, one of the judges will give you know, the singer some, like, critical feedback, and they’re just destroyed. And it’s like, Did no one in your life tell you you weren’t very good, you know? And so, like, for me, there was this, I think you, you call it like imposter syndrome, like, I think I am a good leader, I just need to be given a chance to lead, right?
And again, I’ve had mentors tell me, you don’t need the title or the position to be a leader, but I did. I wanted that operational leadership, you know, because, again, I always felt I was a good friend, a good colleague, right? And then that, I mean, some people say, well, that’s not leadership. I’m like, Well, sure it is, yeah, like, you’re taking ownership, right? You know? So that first step coach to manager, again, the obstacle was a lot of my colleagues were older than me, right? And that did create some concern again, are they going to believe in me, right? But I think at the end of the day, know who you are, be consistent in your interactions, right?
So what I chose to do was I thought of every manager or leader or mentor that I had where I didn’t feel like I flourished as an employee, and so for me, I didn’t necessarily know what to do. I knew what not to do, right, and so that’s what really kind of helped me get my bearings as a first manager, right. I probably made some missteps. I probably was too much of a friend to my colleagues, right? But you learn very quickly, right? You can still be friends, but now you are their supervisor, right? And that’s a whole nother conversation. It’s challenging, but it’s definitely possible, right, with the right communication.
So that’s how I kind of started, like, what do I not want to do, right? And so one of the things for me was, and it still is, if you have a meeting with someone, unless there’s, like an emergency, do not cancel on that person, right? And so I know that sounds like so like insignificant, but if you’re an employee, and you have one opportunity to touch base with your supervisor, right, and they keep canceling it. But again, in fairness to that supervisor, they may have no idea that they keep doing that to you. That that suggests that I’m not important, right? And so for me, when I have a standing meeting with someone, it is a standing meeting, right? So it’s being accountable, it’s being reliable on both parts, right?
So that’s just an example of, like, things like, when I first started managing, but then, like, to your point, all of a sudden, my lane, my comfort zone, was pro sports, collegiate athletes, youth, high school, right. And then all sudden, now coming, still working for Exos, but under the umbrella of mayo clinic, where all their operating systems expectations like completely different, right?
Brett Bartholomew 40:44
Which, by the way, not and not to interject, but I want to make sure that the audience knows this. This is the number one hospital in the nation as reported by US News and World Report, the number one hospital in the nation, and top ranked in 12 specialties. So when Jenny’s too humble to kind of mention this, but I want to make sure you guys understand the magnitude of this, especially those of you that are coaches, that see yourself as just a coach, or feel insecure, because we get a lot of this, Jenny, people that are like, well, you know, I feel like if I get off the floor, I’m not a coach anymore. Going from coaching world class athletes are working with the number one hospital in the nation that is so much bigger in many ways. So I just wanted to plug that in there, Jenny, because I want them to understand the magnitude of the obstacles you’ve had to navigate in your career. So keep going, and I apologize for interjecting.
Jenny Noiles 41:36
I appreciate you. Brought back some anxiety of that first week of work.
Brett Bartholomew 41:42
Be anxious. Now, Jenny, be anxious
Jenny Noiles 41:45
No, I think and we talked about this earlier. Where is anxiety productive and where is it not right? And so, you bet I should be anxious my first week there, right? Because, you know, not only was it, you know, a significant client, it’s also a working relationship, right? And the ability for us to continue to work with this group is based on my performance and my team’s performance, right? So it up the game, 100% of like, okay, you want it to be a leader. Now, this is really gonna test you, right? Can you still do that in someone else’s house, right? I think you know, trying to simplify the experience. So, where did I start, right? And so for me, just like anything, it’s seeking to understand, right?
You know, some people might think, well, seeking to understand, you’re just prolonging the inevitable are you just like a, like, a pushover? No. I mean, at the end of the day, it’s, it’s a paid relationship too, right? You know, they are the client, what they want. We do, you know. So I better, just like a professional athlete, I better seek to understand what they do, what they need, right, but then try and find some, you know, common ground, right? And I always come back to this. My biggest, you know, growth in relationships is having a shared experience with someone so Brett, I think back to you and I had, like, some great work experiences, but there were some that probably really stand out where I felt like, hey, we grew professionally and personally together. And like, those two weeks we were at Lackland Air Force Base
Brett Bartholomew 43:41
During the Great cricket migration and the fire drill?
Jenny Noiles 43:44
Yeah like boom, like that accelerated us as a professional group, yeah, right. But also personally, so with Mayo Clinic, for me, it’s like, you don’t need these raw, raw, like type experiences. I mean, some people do is they’re not bad, you know, these team building exercises and things like that, bringing groups in, whereas for me it was, hey, Wednesday, we’re going to build the wraps. PTs, anyone else? Hey, this isn’t our gym this is an Exos gym. Everyone’s going to be using this if you want to, you know, help out better understand the inner workings of the gym. Like, sign up and sure, that was one way of building a shared experience. Like, I mean, if anyone’s put, like, power blocks together or racks together, it’s a whole day thing.
Brett Bartholomew 44:39
It’s a misery
Jenny Noiles 44:40
Right? So you, you order in Panera, get some Chipotle, spend the day building something together, right? And so to me that was a very simple way to start building relationships. The next big one was when we had our open house, everyone’s like hustling to do a really good job, right? And I think then when you have shared experience, you you just inevitably start to see people’s values, their work effort. And I think the mayo clinic staff work so hard, and they’re so genuine in their want to make people better.
They saw that in us when we were hustling just as hard with them to make this work. And so all sudden, it’s this, Hey, we had a shared experience. We saw similar values and similar work ethic. Man, this, this is going to be awesome, right? So in my situation, it was a great outcome, right? But what do you do, if you’re still on different like, what if we had gone through those shared experiences and kind of come out the end being like, Oh, we kind of think a little bit differently. We work a little bit differently. Our values are a little bit different,
Brett Bartholomew 46:07
Or if somebody’s resistant to taking that shared experience, yeah.
Jenny Noiles 46:11
Right. And so again, my biggest thing is, you can’t take it personal. It probably has nothing to do with you, right? And I think a lot of us, we tend to immediately think, Oh, what did I do wrong? But again, you’re making it about you. It really needs to be about the other person, right? You know and so it’s just hard. There’s also recognizing that you might just be really good colleagues, but you might not be friends, or, you know what, you might always have, some challenging times with that colleague, right? They might just never buy in, and maybe it’s you that eventually moves on, or maybe they move on, right?
So to me, then the conversation becomes, how do I make the most of my time and my relationship with that person, right? If they’re not saying eye to eye, I choose not to take it personally. I choose not to get upset. But then I try to figure out, what are their triggers, right? So for me, I feel like I’m very, for the most part, fairly self aware, right? And so when I do have a like an awkward or a bad interaction with a colleague, right? It’s, I’m not beating myself up, but very quickly, I’m evaluating what was it about that meeting that set them off? Was the meeting late? Do they value things being on time? Was it just the topic? We had a disagreement, right?
And I think for me, the first step is to kind of evaluate those kind of things, right, but then also actually talk to the person like you. Don’t need to make a big deal about it, but you know, Hey, Bob or Fred, how would you have made that meeting better, right? What do you think was missing? Right? Like give people the opportunity to express themselves, it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to go with their suggestion, right, but for some people, they just want to be heard, right? But then, equally, even if I decide not to go with Bob’s suggestion, I then have the courtesy to go back to him to say, Hey, Bob, I evaluated this. We’re going to continue to do it this way. And this is why I think all of us have been in situations where someone has asked us for feedback, even on a simple survey, and then you hear nothing, and you see nothing,
Brett Bartholomew 48:40
Or you just get the banal, Jenny’s passionate about her job. She does a great but could do the and it’s like, oh my god, you know what I mean? It’s like, yeah. It’s like, when you when you ask somebody, what are you hungry for? And they’re like, anything, really, you’re like, well, thanks for contributing nothing.
Jenny Noiles 48:58
Yeah. So I think it’s again that came back to my earlier comment of How had I been treated as an employee before, and what did I want different? And I’m okay with people not liking my ideas or suggestions, but I do want to know that, hey, minimally, I listened to you, but we’re doing something else, right? I guess you don’t evaluate my opinion enough to even tell me, Hey, no, we’re not going with your suggestion, right? So for me, it’s just, I think people want to be engaged, they want to be heard, but they also want some kind of like feedback, you know, whether it’s on their performance or it’s, yeah, hey, thanks for filling out that survey. We’re going with this direction, boom. You know, just provide people closure where it’s needed, you know, I mean, it’s kind of relating, you know, relationships to work, but it’s kind of the. Same thing.
Brett Bartholomew 50:00
Oh, 100% shared relationships like and again, not to cut you off, but I love that you did the shared experiences, because they even find, you know, this is where, if couples work out together, that they notice, you know, increases in oxytocin and all the like, we know this. I mean, it’s a human thing. It’s tribal, you know, this is a tribal thing. And so I think that’s ingenious. Finish your point. I didn’t want to interrupt, but that’s I want to make sure people know, because we do see, we understand that there has to be a separation between work relationships and intimate relationships, that’s not in question. But you can’t look at them as inherently separate in terms of the nuances of what drives connection,
Jenny Noiles 50:42
Exactly, right? I mean, yeah, maybe with a significant other, the topic of conversation is different. But, you know, the methods and modes and consideration of communication still need to be there, right? And it’s the same thing with work, right? It’s, you know, give people a platform to share their ideas, allow them to feel safe. Get back to them. And that, to me, that’s where the parallels are with relationships, too, you know, like sometimes you don’t want to get back to that person, because, you know it’s going to be a hard personal conversation. Say, Hey, I don’t want to date you anymore.
Well, guess what? It’s really hard to tell someone, Hey, you did a really good job on that project, but I need you to do better, right? Like, you know, there’s going to be these hard conversations. And I think for me, my approach has always been own it. You as the leader. You own it. Don’t walk away from it, right, like you chose to be in this position. You want to help people. You want to guide people. And yeah, at the end of the day, I’ve always considered I’d rather myself feel really about something.
And it’s and again, it’s not that you’re trying to protect your employees or your colleagues, but there’s just certain things as a leader where I would rather take the brunt of things, right? So I’m assuming, as if I’m in a leadership position, I have more responsibility. I need to be more thoughtful of things. Maybe one of my younger colleagues doesn’t have some of the emotional image. Have the emotional maturity yet, right? So why would I make them feel really when I can control the situation, I can approach them in a challenging conversation, say, hey, let’s talk about this situation.
What went well, what didn’t right. So for me, the expectation of a teacher, of a leader, of a manager is you’re coming forward with those challenging conversations, because you can’t ignore them, like it just blows up in your face, right? Like, if Susie is always showing up late, and then eventually she just gets written up, she’s probably going to be like, whoa, whoa. Where did that come from? Right? It never was an issue before, right? So just, you know, be consistent with your communication and your follow up. Like, to me, that’s the place to start.
Brett Bartholomew 53:16
Yeah, I want to summarize and codify some of the things you said. This is, I mean, amazing. You know, one first off and foremost, again, going back to one of the most common questions we get in various mediums is, you know, all about buying and what have you. And I’ve told you this offline, when people say, tell me about buy in I’m like, this, you know, it’s always, it’s interesting trying to understand what they want to know. Because I’m like, Well, this is a 300 page book and you know, an online course. It’s now a university course. I can’t just tell you about this in a DM. So when I do kind of boil it down, and I say, here’s a bastardized oversimplified view
And I kind of talk about our 3R approach research, relate and reframe and again, your shared experience is your don’t take it personally. Your give autonomy fits so nicely into this relate is about shared experiences, but we also tell people don’t force that relationship, right? Don’t force self disclosure, don’t force some kind of team building activity, because if you do that now, you’re reframing. It’s about you. It’s not about the activity of itself. So I hope people heard that I love you talking about not hiding from difficult conversations. I can say this on this podcast, because by the time it airs this will be known, but we have a new member of our team. Her name’s Ali Keshner, and she was the associate Olympic sports performance coach at Stanford University
One that brought about the inequality of women’s and men’s weight rooms in the NCAA Tournament. Highly qualified in her own respect. In many ways, she’s been on the podcast, and she talked about before she had left Stanford, she said, hey, you know, I respect the everybody I work with immensely, and I want to. Talk to them in person. And Ali and I have known each other for a while. I think I don’t know what she perceived, and she’ll listen to this because she writes our show notes for it. But she said, I hope you know, I need to have this conversation with one of my superiors in person, because I respect them and I believe in having tough conversations in person.
And she started to qualify it, Jenny and I said, Ali , you don’t need to qualify it. I wouldn’t hire you if you didn’t have this conversation in person. We talk a lot about appropriate modalities of communication. It’s the same level of frustration I feel when people on Instagram expect me to talk about, what we talk about on the podcast or courses on Instagram. I’m like that’s not the medium for that. We couldn’t do it. So you talked about a great thing with that. I also loved, I mean, maybe one of the highlights of what you said, which, this is gonna be a very tough one when we think about the minute long sound bite.
I mean, the audience can’t see this, but I have a legal pad of notes of like, things that I wanna, but you said you cannot fake reps you haven’t gotten. And that is the core of, like, what we teach at our apprenticeship workshops, which are largely improv based, we have to put people in these situations. So was it Susie that was late, or was it Sally? I can’t remember. Did you use Susie? It was Susie.
Jenny Noiles 56:15
I think it was Susie.
Brett Bartholomew 56:16
Yeah. Like, not a lot of people get practice having those conversations with Susie. So when we can do role playing that does that, those are reps that the aspiring leader right may not get yet. Could you imagine if, prior to taking the roles you had, you had this chance to practice right and you’re self reflective, because these things are top of mind in your head all the time. I know they are, because when I’d observe you as a coach, and you’re one of the most pleasurable people to watch, just do your thing I’ve ever seen, I always wonder, I’m like, What is going on in her head right now? And I’m like, so much, but you organize it very well, because you’re able to separate the urgent from the important. You’re able to separate the interpersonal from the technical. And then in this way that is very unique, like a sorcerer, you blend them together so that the average person that does not understand that level of mastery might be bored, but anybody at the top of their craft is wowed.
And that’s always what I felt like with you. I felt like you’re the expert butcher who, like your knife lasts forever because you cut the meat in very few strokes, whereas the person that tries to make it look complex or overly complicated, they just hack these knives up and they have to go through it quickly, which, by the way, that’s something I learned. A distinction between expert butchers and non is the length at which it’s not just the quality of the knife, but how long they keep it is based on how many cuts they use in an expert butcher will always use fewer cuts. I do have a couple hot takes, though, as we round out the end of this episode, because you’ve smashed everything okay.
So a couple of hot takes, all right? This one comes from something I got from the Journal of organizational dynamics. And they talk about coaching and the art of management, and the context is they view that, you know, really the art of management is coaching that, and we believe this too, coaches or managers and guides and what have you, okay. But what they said is, we view coaching not as a subset of the field of management, but rather as the heart of management itself. Would you agree? And I’m not going to give you too much information other than that, just on the face, so a gray area answer is, okay. Do you think the art of great management and leadership really is an approach that’s more coaching centered?
Jenny Noiles 58:38
Yeah. But again, I see you can substitute leadership. This is my bias.
Brett Bartholomew 58:46
Yeah, we want your bias in these answers.
Jenny Noiles 58:49
Coaching is leadership is management. To me, the three words are interchangeable, right? What it comes down to is the human executing these things, right? I could be a coach, right, and not really focus on communication, building growth, right? I know that sounds ridiculous, right? I could be that coach, just technical, technical, technical, but I could probably also be a manager or a leader that’s really good at spreadsheets, right? Yeah. So to me, it’s those words are interchangeable. The how it’s brought to life is with the person and the intention behind those three things.
Brett Bartholomew 59:30
It’s a great answer that that article goes on to state, to your point, the manager is viewed variously as team captain, parent, Steward, battle commander, fountain of wisdom, poker player group, spokesperson, gatekeeper, minister, and it says, it goes on to say everything between nurse and Attila, the Hun, you know? And so it is interesting that there’s so much of that, right? Here’s another hot take, and I know this one’s personal. We all deal with some biases, right? I’ve been judged from the standpoint of, well, you come from sports performance. We’re looking for somebody that came from Darden or Harvard or what have you. Have you ever had somebody that said, well, Jenny, you’d be taken a lot more seriously if you went by Jennifer.
Jenny Noiles 1:00:15
Yeah, I did, yeah, I have. And then I just realized very quickly, oh, I don’t respect that person. They don’t seek to understand me. They’ve oversimplified me. And it’s then it was my choice, do I get all torn up inside, or do I let this one kind of roll off. And eventually that person became a really big advocate of mine.
Brett Bartholomew 1:00:44
Funny how that works
Jenny Noiles 1:00:45
Friends, but yeah, you know,
Brett Bartholomew 1:00:48
First they fight you, then they laugh at you, then they join you. All right, this one, have some fun with it. And if you need a moment of silence to, like, think about it, that’s totally fine. We’re on the tail end. And then I’ll give you the last word, and then we’ll wrap up. Okay, I want to respect your time. You talked about somebody oversimplifying you. We oversimplify a lot of things in life based on our biases. Who do you believe is one of the most misunderstood villains, either in a movie or a book or in popular culture?
Who do you think is one of the most misunderstood villains, somebody that’s been typecasted. We had one person say Willy Wonka, so like there’s no wrong here. Maybe not a villain. No, it has to be somebody that’s perceived as dark or villainous or less than virtuous. But really, people just don’t understand them. Have some fun with it. I love this question. It throws everybody through a loop.
Jenny Noiles 1:01:17
Yeah, like, clearly
Brett Bartholomew 1:01:21
Because we talk a lot about leaders as heroes, right, we talk and a lot of people listening, and myself included, we tend to feel sometimes like outcasts and underdogs and that were misunderstood. And so this has been a fan favorite question for a long time, one of the most misunderstood villains, or you could go anti hero if you don’t want to go straight villain,
Jenny Noiles 1:02:08
You know, no, I just, I’m trying to, I’m really bad with names, but so I just during covid, I watched homeland? And I think her name the main actress, Claire Danes. So she’s very misunderstood. There’s moments of time where she’s the hero, other times she’s the villain. But really, she’s kind of a combo, right? And maybe, I don’t know, just reaching here, maybe, you know, a leader can be the villain and the hero at the same time.
Brett Bartholomew 1:02:41
I think they maybe need to be sometimes.
Jenny Noiles 1:02:44
Yeah, that’s really a hard one
Brett Bartholomew 1:02:47
That’s okay. I’ll let you chew on it, and then listen, you stocked this with tons of insight. I want to give you the chance anything I didn’t ask you, or any points that you want to make that you didn’t get a chance to share, to sign us off.
Jenny Noiles 1:03:01
Oh, man, I think we, we covered a lot, right? I think the biggest thing is just being intentional, right? You’re only a pushover if you’re a pushover, right? You know, sometimes using these, you know emotional the heart, like, know your audience and know what words to use, right? But like, at the end of the day, just be intentional with things. And if you want to be a good communicator, learn how to be a good communicator. Go to Brett’s,
Brett Bartholomew 1:03:40
Get your ass for our apprenticeships,
Jenny Noiles 1:03:42
Right. Put your in situations you know, to work on your communication if you don’t know if you’re a good communicator or not, ask people. Ask for feedback, right? And sometimes getting feedback from your nemesis is the best thing, because, like, sometimes you need to find the bottom and you need to find the ceiling. Either are very challenging when you hit them, right? But then at least, you know, it’s kind of like comparing it to, like a novice exerciser. They don’t know what a 10 out of a 10 is, right? So get them to feel what a 10 out of a 10 is. So like, oh, man, that was a 10, five today, right? So, same thing with yourself, right? Figure out how you’re perceived, right? I mean, when you ask for feedback, be prepared. Be prepared for it and back.
Brett Bartholomew 1:04:36
Be grateful for the tough stuff too. You know, even when we see anonymous people that are clearly just angry and aren’t even verified purchasers of our book or anything like that, then they go off. For me, I always didn’t just like, oh, this is interesting. This gives me insight into emotions this person might have been feeling they clearly didn’t buy the book. Otherwise, Amazon would do that. So what would make them write this and like, again, I know that I’m not. Everybody so, yeah, I think that’s valuable.
Jenny, is there a place, because you’re gonna, I think you’re gonna be surprised. There’s gonna be a lot of people that want to learn from you, reach out, give back to you, anything like that. Where’s the best place, if anywhere, to contact you or to connect with you?
Jenny Noiles 1:05:14
Yeah? I mean, probably, I know it sounds cliche, but probably Instagram. I’m very simple. Jenny Noiles, you can look me up, j, e, n, n, y, n, o, y, l, e, s. I may not respond like right away, but this is just my rule in general, I intentionally try to get back to people except Brett into within 20
Brett Bartholomew 1:05:29
that does not happen with me, Jenny.
Jenny Noiles 1:05:39
I know isn’t that crazy, though, that I make exceptions just because I don’t know why, I just feel like
Brett Bartholomew 1:05:46
Your shared understanding,
Jenny Noiles 1:05:48
Yeah, but then that you can’t use that as a crutch either, so I’ll look at you anyways, not to go on a tangent. But yeah, Instagram is probably the best way. And then, like I said, I try to get back to people within 24 hours. selfishly,
Brett Bartholomew 1:06:05
Well, I love it. I want you to be a facilitator for our apprenticeships. They touch on so many of the things that you talk about, and it’s a place where people come understanding tough feedback, like it’s for people that really are tired of you know that kind of surface level stuff, and want to be around other people that signed up for this that are like, Hey, I’m here. I’m opening myself up to this. At least there’s this social contract where everybody knows this is a place where failure is normalized. We’re not going to take it personal. We’re going to come out with something.
And I really want you to be a part of that, so I’m going to recruit you offline. But I just want to say thank you so much for myself and everybody at art of coaching, one of our, if not the best episode we’ve had so far in many respects, especially on this topic. So thank you.
Jenny Noiles 1:06:51
Thanks, Brett.
Brett Bartholomew 1:06:54
Guys, this is Brett Bartholomew and Jenny Noiles for the art of coaching podcast. Signing off. Please share it with a friend. Leave a review. Tell your mother all of the above. We’ll see you next time
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