Regardless of occupation or title, we all write. Whether it’s in short form on social media or long form as in email, proposals, blogs, articles, books, or academic journals- it’s something that unites all fields.
That being said- what’s your perception of writing? Do you enjoy the craft or is it the bane of your existence? Were you raised to think of writing as a formal process reserved for academics and novelists or as an artistic endeavor? Whatever your history with the written word, our guest today will change your perspective of the practice. Not only do we discuss the neurological and biological underpinnings of language, we dive into how to develop your skill as an amatuer writer and why good writing doesn’t mean writing like Hemingway.
Courtney Kelly is a writer and editor who partners with individuals and organizations to create brands, products, books, and other media that aim to effect real, prosocial change. Before starting her freelance business, Ethos Alchemy during the summer of 2020, she served as marketing director for Strength Ratio, a strength and conditioning and sport performance company, and as curriculum director for Strivven Media, an Asheville-based education technology company. She began her career as an English teacher, and writing education remains central to her work today.
We also cover:
- Theory of mind and why we think we’re better than we are
- Using ethical manipulation and adaptation in communication – where do you draw the line?
- How to become a more efficient writer when it’s not your full time job
- Why saying what you’re NOT can be more powerful than what you ARE
- Why you should read more fiction and watch tv
Connect with Courtney:
Via her website: https://www.courtneykellywrites.com/
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TRANSCRIPTION
Brett Bartholomew 0:01
Hey everyone. Nice to have you back for another episode of The Art of coaching Podcast. I’m here today with Courtney Kelly Courtney. Thanks for joining me.
Courtney Kelly 0:08
Oh, yeah. Thank you so much for having me on.
Brett Bartholomew 0:10
Yeah, I’m excited about this one for a lot of reasons. We’ve known each other for a little bit. Now, I’ve never met, you know, truly face to face, but we’re connected by a mutual friend in Brad Stolberg, and I think it was our first conversation really where we talked about our mutual affinity for language and communication and words. And one thing that our audience would have heard in the intro, as long as they didn’t skip it, is you have a background in psycho linguistics. And that’s a deep rabbit hole in and of itself. But talk to me a little bit about how you came to be somebody who has this deep appreciation for the words we use and how we wield them and communication in general.
Courtney Kelly 0:48
Yeah, yeah. And first, I would say, you know, I wasn’t someone who got like a master’s degree in psycholinguistics, or a PhD or anything like that. I’m more just someone who’s fascinated by it, and whose work is impacted by it every day. But really, you know, where I first kind of, I was first introduced to it by a linguist named John McWhorter. He wrote a book called our magnificent bastard tongue, which is the history of English. And if you’re interested in the history of language, or anything like that, I cannot recommend this book enough. It is hilarious. It’s riveting. And I’m not just saying that as someone that likes words, I think anyone would like it.
So anyway, through that book, I started to, or that book shaped kind of my understanding of what language actually is and how it actually works. And it kind of shifted my thinking away from this, like antiquated approach to language, which is so focused on like prescriptive grammar, you know, Are you splitting infinitives? Or are you do your verbs match your nouns, and all of these kind of, all these little things that are nitpicky and, and honestly, like had already had always felt a little bit superficial to me. So it was cool to have this new approach to language, that Sadhas this, like ever evolving social agreement.
And so from there became really interested in pursuing just more about language itself. And I was working as a teacher. So I was really interested in like, understanding how we acquire language, where there can be some like road bumps in the process, and why there can be some differences in like, how people are using it, how people are perceiving it, where that comes from, essentially, like, I wanted to know that sort of the biological like underpinnings of language. So I started, really deep diving, I actually applied to a Ph. D. program, and did not get in this was at Hopkins, a cognitive science program
But through the work I did for the application, and the interview, and via the people that I met, and the work that I was exposed to, I just learned a lot more than I had known before about, you know, the neurological underpinnings of language itself. And the entire process of using language producing it, processing it, perceiving it, and how it evolves. So that’s kind of my background there.
Brett Bartholomew 3:39
No, and I appreciate that. I think something you know, again, if our listeners heard the intro, and we’ll talk about this, but it’s unique too, because not only are you a fellow nerd about these things, but you also are involved in weightlifting and competing in powerlifting. And so we’re gonna go a coaching route here in a minute, but let’s stay on language for a second. It’s interesting to me, and I’d love to get your take on this because one discussion we were having as a staff recently, is around, you know, why people tend to think they’re better at wielding language or communicating and understanding these things than they are now.
You know, most of our audience has heard of the Dunning Kruger effect, we’re aware of the better than average effect, right? We all think that we’re a little bit better at certain things than we are. And one member of our staff and an extended member of our audience was like, Well, you know, it’s funny, it’s kind of like everybody communicate so they think they’re good at it just like a lot of people eat food so they think they know something about nutrition or you know, what have you
And your what do you think it is, one, that makes people think that they’re better at understanding these things than they are and two, in your research and your own curiosity? What were some things you were surprised to learn about yourself, where you add inadequacies or massive imperfections that you were like, Whoa, I need to work on these a little bit.
Courtney Kelly 4:59
Yeah, I love those questions. You know, honestly, with that first one, the initial answer that comes to mind is, when we communicate, there’s this bidirectionality, to our theories of mind, that happens, or our theory of mind, you know, if it’s two people, I guess two theories of minds. But essentially, like when you’re speaking, you’re thinking about how someone’s perceiving your language. But you’re also thinking about the fact that they’re thinking about the fact that you’re thinking about their language. So which sounds complicated, but essentially, like, both parties in a conversation, both or anybody that’s in sort of like a communication, relationship, they are not only putting themselves in the other person’s shoes, but they’re also imagining that person putting themselves in their shoes.
So there’s, again, it’s that bidirectionality. And I think what can happen there is if, you know, for a number of reasons, there can be kind of like a mismatch. And you can think that someone’s perceiving you a certain way, or assume that someone assumes you’re perceiving them a certain way and be wrong. And I think when you get enough feedback from people that, you know, if they’re not necessarily correcting you, or you’re not asking questions, to verify that your assumptions or your perceptions are correct, then there’s nothing that’s telling you that the mismatch has occurred. And so you’ll continue to assume that you’re correct.
And just keep applying that across the board with your kind of communication. So I think that has a, that’s kind of like a big part of it is actively seeking out that feedback in conversations like, hey, you know, did that make sense to you? Or was that clear? And not asking in a way that’s like, kind of putting someone on the spot, but just genuinely asking for feedback can really help you people like the general, you kind of refine their theory of mind that process of like abstraction
Brett Bartholomew 7:36
Yeah. And I think just to break up that, before you go on to the second part, you brought up some wonderful things there. And we’re gonna dive into theory of mind here in a moment. But I would even add, not just getting feedback, but getting feedback from people that are not your family, friends or direct colleagues.
Courtney Kelly 7:54
Yes, yeah,
Brett Bartholomew 7:55
We have to have diverse levels of feedback, because it’s amazing how many people and I always make a disclaimer, anything I give people a hard time about. I’m guilty of planning myself. Right. But like we and so like, I think there are so many coaches that I’ve ran into and leaders that think that communication took place just because they told somebody something. Right? Or that they’re good at it, because it’s something they do daily. And I said, Oh, well, you know, there’s a lot of things we do daily that we’re abysmal at. When they say Why communicate daily, I’m like, so does everybody else in the world, and how are they at it?
But it is fascinating, because that goes into theory of mind, right? Like we, my 15 month old, it doesn’t occur to him that deceptions possible, right? He thinks that everyone knows what he knows right now, and he doesn’t know any, you know, so it’s fascinating that people think, Oh, I’ve said something, so they must have understood it. No, no, we have differing thoughts. That’s what you mean by theory of mind. Right? Or could you elaborate on that a little bit for audience members that maybe haven’t heard that term?
Courtney Kelly 9:00
Yeah, totally. And I think it’s a great example, actually, to bring in your 15 month old, because it’s something that you have massive development with, in those early years of your life. But theory of mine it’s called a theory because it’s like your, basically your understanding of someone else’s perception. And you can’t ever know for sure what someone else is perceiving unless you’re in their shoes. So that’s why it’s called a theory because no matter what you’re always theorizing, and most of the time it’s you have enough information to make like a really educated, you know, spot on theory, that’s probably going to be right but at the end of the day, you know, we are able to jump into one another’s perspectives.
So it’s still the theory and how the reason that theory of mind is such a big deal for like young children is because, I don’t know if you can hear my dog,
Brett Bartholomew 10:10
You’re fine.
Courtney Kelly 10:12
Is because so it is a foundation for communication, you can’t communicate unless you can think about someone perceiving that, well, you can communicate, but it’s more things like, I’m cold, so move me or like I’m hungry, you know, that kind of thing. But so with a growing kind of developing brain, there’s so much activity that’s going on around kind of interactions that children have with their parents or even other children and like their siblings, or what have you. And this over time, is helping to shape their understanding that other people have experiences, I mean, A that they have experiences B that they could be different than theirs, C that they have beliefs, and then D, that those beliefs can also be different.
And so typically, I mean, usually, people’s theory of mind is extremely well developed, you know, before they’re teenagers and, and stuff. But there can be some, like, aberrant things that happen with theory of mind throughout development. And, you know, I think it’s one of those things like anything else that has to do with psychology, neurology, any skill, you know, it’s something that needs to be like you know, practiced, we do it automatically, but in terms of like, really kind of taking your understanding of someone else to the next level, that can be a practice.
Brett Bartholomew 11:57
Yeah, well, I think that that’s where I would say, some people the disconnect is when we say, well, we need to improve our communication or interpersonal skills. They look at it as some kind of vagary, right, as opposed to understanding that there’s levels to it. And this is kind of where we can get into training analogies, right? Like, I don’t just start using bands and chains with beginners in strength training, right? Or if somebody is competing for a marathon, if they’re gonna do a marathon, they don’t just start running off like a ridiculous amount of mileage. I mean, they might, but they’re gonna end up having shin splints, or maybe plantar fasciitis, and there’s so many different things.
So the thing that I tried to encourage and I wonder if this is within your framework, as well of, you know, when we say communication, if you’re trying to grow a business, if you’re trying to improve a relationship, if you’re trying to utilize marketing, if you’re trying to utilize various ethical forms of persuasion or influence if you’re engaging in power dynamics, so you can get things done that requires a quote, unquote, higher training age of how we utilize or deploy our communication and that stuff. We’re not taught, right? We have physics 101, physics 202, all these things. How many of us have taken some form of rhetoric?
And then not only that, maybe if we did it was in a classroom setting? Or maybe it was a rah, rah leadership seminar, how did you start to improve and hone in the way you acquire and deploy language and how that fits into? I know, something you’ve written about? And we’ve talked about optimality theory.
Courtney Kelly 13:29
Yeah, yeah. Actually, this fits in really well, with the second part of a previous question, you know, like, where did I find myself? Did I have a moment where I was like, Whoa, I have a lot of growing to do. And actually, that happened around the same time that I was looking into starting to learn more about linguistics. So in college, I’ve always been interested in writing and love doing it and everything. So I thought what I should do is be an English major, and a philosophy major, and then I did Creative Writing minor as well. So I had these different realms where I’m learning about communication, and I’m learning about the relationship between communication and existence and these kinds of things.
And my assumption was that to be like, at the, sort of, like, the peak of what a good communicator is to write like Tennyson, or to speak like, you know, orders that we’re studying from, like classical times. And those are just examples that popped out of my head in the moment, but I have this idea that like, you know, good writing was this incredibly cerebral, very kind of academic thing, and that good communication was that as well. out. And when I started learning with as I kind of like delve into linguistics more, and especially when I was a teacher is like, no, like, that’s actually not like that’s kind of a, that’s an idea that isn’t necessarily good for anybody. And certainly, you know, for me it was a way to be exposed to different types of language and communication, over the years and stuff
But what I realized is that within kind of the field of communication, the different elements and skills that you need are like diffuse across many different almost departments, academic departments, because I think it’s helpful to learn things like composition and rhetoric, but at the same time, it’s also really helpful to learn things like, you know, just some linguistic some, like, hey, how does language really work, but then to also have kind of the art of communication, and to look at, like people today that are innovating in incredible ways within communication.
And to think about how many different kinds of like communities and cultures within different countries, especially the United States, like what different dialects look like, and how those dialects work and why, like how dialects relate to one another how language is really just, you know, languages are all really dialects. At the end of the day, there’s a quote that I think is really appropriate. And it talks about how languages are just dialects with an army and a navy, you know, so So really, what everybody speaks is something that’s incredibly fluid, it can evolve over time, it’s influenced by what other people speak nearby, and it kind of emerges from what life looks like, from like, the day to day life of someone speaking in language.
And so that was kind of the aha moment for me was there is so much more to what language is, and what quote unquote, good and language is not what I’ve been taught it, you know, throughout the years. And it’s not to say those writers are bad, it’s just to say that there’s so much more out there. So that one thing I would say is the different kinds of elements of communication. It’s almost like what I’ve been doing is really like picking from different disciplines and kind of like bringing insights from those disciplines together to grow as a communicator, which I plan to do my whole life.
Brett Bartholomew 18:02
Yeah. Well, no, you touched on a lot of interesting points there, I want to the last thing you said there is making sure that you reach across disciplines. And I think about that, when you read about ancient societies and what have you. And let’s just use a classic example of the Greeks, right when people would converse, whether that was in courtyards, or wherever they would meet and join, you had so many people from different backgrounds, and I remember a big wake up call for me. And when I started to analyze my communication, the people that I spent the most time around is, I started to get this hunger to be around people in more professions, you know, just as you grow.
And you know, it’s a big reason why with our workshops, we open them up to everything. And, that was a tricky exercise in and of itself, I’ll say, where I had to grow as a communicator, like to share some inadequacies on mine, is I had to deal with the fact that like, I never liked the idea of marketing early on. But then I realized we were hosting these workshops called the apprenticeship communication workshops, and we’re like, they’re open to all fields. This is about communication. It’s about interpersonal skills. It’s about constraints. It’s about understanding how to improvise, and what have you, just like we do daily life. But I would always run into the problem of people thinking that because my background was a strength and conditioning coach, that these and my products were first training conditioning coaches.
And so I was like, Alright, how can I communicate this more clearly? And it was interesting, because my constraints were the following, right? And this is not exhaustive. It was one the attention span of the listener, right, and the mediums that I had to communicate on. So you inevitably I couldn’t use pretty language because maybe people learned about our workshops when scrolling on Instagram or what have you, and you just got to hook them. Another thing is you have to go against their pre existing bias of all I see is what there is, right? I’m used to strength and conditioning content from this guy. Therefore, anything that I think he puts out is going to be strength and conditioning content, but then we also had to assuage any of their own insecurities of Wow, a workshop timeout, where we’re gonna go get evaluated by other people in other fields, and we’re gonna have our thought processes challenge.
I don’t know if I’m ready for that. It gets very uncomfortable. So it’s interesting to try to figure out the words and the messaging and the marketing style we needed in order to manage this. And for a while, I leaned on being rational, right? I thought about hey, you know, we all think we’re better at communication than we really are kinda, we started this episode, but where do we learn it? How do we grow it, but it made people think too much. And so then I had to start kind of ask him well, what do you guys think talking about theory of mind? What, do you think is great communication? And what do you value? And how could you get better at it, and people would start to give me the language that resonated with them?
Well, you know, I want diverse feedback, I want connection, I want real life situations, I want transferability, ding, ding, ding, we started thinking about these things were like, of course, those are the words we use now. So, you know, just I didn’t want you to have to, you know, strip yourself bear and say, Hey, these are the things that I’ve learned and I’ve struggled with, I think the fun of it is even as much as you and I love these things, I struggled with it, and it goes back to our comms razor, the best solutions, usually the simplest, figure out their language. And that’s why I love what you said about academic writing, not always the best example academic writing can be very snobbish, you know, and that’s not you know, I understand the context, sometimes it has to be
But you turn some people off if you don’t know how to use their language. And then it’s like, well, how do I feel ethically about that? And that’s kind of my next question. And feel free to mix it in with any responses. What I just said is like, how do you balance? Like, what if the language you have to use to connect with somebody is language that you keep feel conflicted by? How do you battle those demons? Does that make sense? Is that a clear question?
Courtney Kelly 21:34
Yeah, yeah. So let me just give you a scenario and make sure that we’re on the same page. So I’m thinking like, you know, let’s say I’m communicating with a client, who is someone that won’t respect my knowledge, unless I know this, unless I use kind of like an academic tone.
Brett Bartholomew 21:56
100%
Courtney Kelly 21:57
Yeah, so and given that, for me, one of my biggest I don’t know, missions in life is to really empower people to use the language that’s theirs, you know, we don’t have to like that we don’t have to always kind of default to or strive for whatever the verb is this like, very kind of rigid, cold, confining academic language. So given that I have kind of this, that ethical framework that I’m working with, I would say, I mean, in the end, for me, it’s it really depends on like, what the person and I are trying to accomplish.
If the end of what we’re trying to accomplish is kind of within my ethical, like, I feel good about it, then I will totally adjust my language. And through that also, potentially, like if there’s places where, let’s say, with this person, they want to produce a book, something like this, that’s supposed to bring an issue to light, I will show them that I’m willing to speak in the language they’re comfortable with, but then also challenge that and say, you know, I don’t think that this book will have the biggest impact that it can possibly have, if we only use this kind of language, is are you comfortable with me showing you some other ways that this could be communicated? So I think, yeah, I think it depends on the end, you know?
Brett Bartholomew 23:39
Yeah, no, I think that’s so so you’re a believer in and I’m, this is a trick question. Right? Because I know you can take this. So you say that depends on the end. You think the language that we use can be just a means to the end? Do you think that the end justifies the means then?
Courtney Kelly 23:56
Okay, so not in every circumstance, so I so then
Brett Bartholomew 24:01
You knew I had to do that to you, you know, I had to do that to you right there.
Courtney Kelly 24:04
Yeah, no, I think there is absolutely language that is not ethical ever to use. And then there’s also language that’s not kind to use ever. And just as an example, you know, with the same let’s say, let’s take the same client, and let’s say that like, they are someone that will not take me seriously unless I yell at them or something. I don’t know. But so in that case, like, if someone’s wanting me to yell at them, then there’s like, that is where I draw the like, I’m not going to yell at you. I’m not going to communicate in a way that’s not kind because that’s just, I won’t do it. So yeah. Yeah,
Brett Bartholomew 24:56
That’s a great I mean, a great example where I can totally relate and You know, I refer to this colloquially as like talking in color. In conscious coaching, I just said, you know, you’ve got to make these words or the imagery come to light. But I remember to your point, you know, when I trained athletes, like, I’m not going to smack an athlete, and I had an athlete at one time was gearing up for a max effort squat was like, hit me. And I’m like, No, you know what I mean? And I’m pretty direct in the weight room, right? Like, I don’t go out of my way to be something I’m not. But I kind of ebb and flow with my level of presence, I can be, you know, a commanding presence when I need to be and I need to get people’s attention.
And, there’s some days, you could come watch me coach, and you’re like, Whoa, you’re very chill, you know, because depending on the relationship of the athlete, but this individual had trained at a school where the strength coach would kind of use smelling salts, and also give him a back slap, or just even smack them on the butt, you know, whatever. I’m like, I’m not doing that, you know. And more importantly, if that’s what you need that’s concerning. And I could start to play this against them a little bit. And I look at this as ethical manipulation.
I’m like, you’re in the NFL, you know, you’re a grown ass man. If you need me to come smack you a little bit as opposed to you understanding that you got a family to provide for and a job to do, then let’s get with it. And he was like, Damn, that’s worse than a smack. All right, I got you that he got into it. And so I think sometimes he was just like, I’m with you. It’s like, I’m not gonna smack an athlete, just because you know, that might juice them up. It’s like, well, we shouldn’t necessarily have to stoop to that. And, yeah, so I mean, I think we’re on the same page there without a doubt. Am I interpreting this correctly?
Courtney Kelly 26:33
Totally. Yeah. And I think there’s just so much like, there are these hard and fast like, no, okay, this is not never okay. And this is always, this will always be something that I view as a transgression of like my ethical code, but within communication, because it’s so fluid. And it’s so and it is just a social contract. And it requires so many different kind of like, psychological functions, cognitive functions at once. There is a lot that’s gray, honestly. And like a big example for me, like of kind of a gray area would be, in general, I try to communicate directly.
And it’s really important to me to communicate directly and I’ve had bosses in my past, where if I was to direct, that would send them off in a direction that’s not productive for me, or them or anybody else in the office. So I would approach a situation a little more obliquely. And while that’s not my preference, it’s also not a gross transgression of like, any ethical code. And it’s in the interest of like, efficiency and effectiveness. So there’s a lot of gray.
Brett Bartholomew 27:54
Yeah, well, and especially because what’s good or bad, and I use air quotes with any of those depends on the nature of the situation. And what happened before it, right. The context, there’s a lot of times somebody, I think they don’t realize they could walk into the room and see any number of things, and they have no idea what’s going on. Yet, we live in this time now, where people feel like metaphorically, right, but also, literally, they could walk into the room and see a heated discussion that they know nothing about. And hear language, you know, that they don’t know what that even means between those two people.
And then they’ve decided if that’s ethical, or not ethical, and I think about it very much along the lines of again, I feel like I was really well prepared for elements of canceled culture. Because like, as a coach, sometimes we’d have people come observe, right? And they may see me, I’ll never forget one time working with an athlete, I was using a certain modality. And the next thing you know, this person had come in observed, said, you know, great day observing coach, Brett B, yada, yada, yada. But then basically, there was a video and people were like, Oh, I’m surprised to see him using this exercise. Or I’m surprised to see this.
And the research says that and I remember seeing that four days later, and I go, timeout, like, do any of you know anything about this athlete that I’m coaching? Do any of you know their medical history? Here’s the deal, you know, oh, well, we didn’t know that. I go, of course you didn’t. So why would you feel like you could comment on that? But we do that every day in society. Now we have this polarized environment. How do you navigate? You know, what about all these people now and we have plenty of them in our audience that are listening. They have knowledge, they’re great people.
They’re imperfect people like all of us, but they say I want to share I want to put myself out there maybe it’s a podcast, it’s a book, it’s this or that. But shit I’m worried about being judged. I’m gonna get torn down. I feel like it’s a matter of time till I say something and people come at me. Is there any hope for this, you know, or like, or people just want to stay in their shell now because it’s like, they have imposter phenomenon. That’s bad enough. And now they have to worry about people jumping on them. And it’s not just judgment, right? It’s hyper Judgment these days.
Courtney Kelly 30:01
Yeah, yeah, it is. And I mean, you know, one of the reasons I think it’s become so difficult for people that are in different spheres to communicate with one another is because of social media and what that does to communication. And, you know, there’s always like the algorithms, right? So then, so people are being fed content that is basically in line with their cognitive biases, and is kind of feeding them information that either they like, or they really hate. So it’s getting them to engage. And either way, people are developing, I mean, it is truly separate languages. And so there is like, I felt this fear before as well that I might say something that is, like in my everyday life, in my experience with my interactions online, and in the real world, it would be a statement that is totally positive.
But for someone else who’s been kind of steeped in this another way of communicating, it might seem really negative. And how do I bridge that gap? is something that I think about a lot, and so to kind of speak to your audience members, the first thing I’d say is, I totally share that fear. And the second thing that I’d say is, you know, the, really the thing that helps me the most is just being very clear on what my values are, and just kind of coming back to those often within my communications. So if I’m writing something that goes on social media, for example, just like, hey, does this, do I feel like does this kind of match up with everything?
Yeah. Okay, so this is checking all the all of my boxes, I feel if someone said this to me, I would feel very positively about this, or whatever reaction you’re looking for. And then watch what happens, you know, they’re like, if you do receive kind of those nasty comments and people that are investigating you, or whatever it may be, for whatever reason, I think, kind of, like, okay, looking at that, from almost a scientific perspective, like, alright, that’s some feedback, what is the context of this person’s feedback? If they’re coming to me from a sort of a group of people that speaks almost like a different language than me? What can I learn about their language from this interaction?
And then to also recognize the positives too, because I’m sure like, you’re saying these people are our audience, you’re good people. And so you are going to get positive feedback as well. And, making sure you know, I think we all have this bias towards kind of the negative, which probably stems from like times when it was much more important to know like that snakes poisonous, then there’s great food behind that bush. And so just remembering that, you know, the positives are real, and it is important that people have positive reactions. I would say that’s kind of like the best for right now. And honestly, I’m still learning and trying to think about this as well, myself. So I think that that’s,
Brett Bartholomew 33:39
I loved your example of, you know, I love the example of a that’s next poisonous as opposed to there’s great food behind that bush. I think one thing that was cathartic for me dealing with this to add on to what you’re saying is learning more about it right when I started learning more about constructs like schadenfreude, which I still owe my audience a whole episode on that. Or even there’s a book I remember reading, called crystallizing public opinion. And there’s this quote that always stays with me. And it’s not a genius, quote, we know it, but it’s just helpful to be reminded.
And they said, a debate will always draw a larger crowd than a lecture. And so you talked about this, you know, with the algorithm is that, believe me, these organizations, and it’s not just the algorithm, because if social media was gone, something would take its place right before that. It was newspapers and other things that people thought were rotting the minds of others or magazines. But I mean, they wrote about this in 1980. And they said nothing so easily catches attention, or creates a crowd like a contest of any kind, right? You think about what were the conversations in ancient Rome when they had the Colosseum? Of course, we know that people turned out in droves to watch that, but I’m sure there were members of that society that looked at that is very much like social media, these blood hungry people, right,
But these these occasions like these contests, and now, social media has its own form of contests. They almost kind of become symbolic and they Like elicit an unconscious and probably conscious alignment with one person or another. And that’s very much how we are right? We want to identify ourselves as the hero and like the victor good over evil. And this kind of breathes into this allegory of our life. Because it’s funny, like, oh, be the hero of your own story is a lot of these kinds of mantras we see today. But it’s problematic when we think we’re the hero, but we’re really the villain. And we’re just following these things that create news value, and we prefer to read about the things we like
I mean, again, how many coaches do you know? And I know we know a lot that if they could they just learn all about training and exercise, just like there’s accountants that would only learn about this, or there’s doctors that would prefer, but what about the dentist that now needs to learn how to manage their books and the coach that now needs to manage, you know, people in their gym, or you know, there’s some kind of social disparity going on in the locker room that’s impacting team performance. We don’t like dealing with the messiness within ourselves. Any thoughts on that? I know that was a rant, but yeah, I’d be interested to hear what you think.
Courtney Kelly 36:09
Yeah, no, I think that’s really interesting. And I think the, you know, the first thing that that makes me think of is this concept of like, you know, the people, largely, I think, when you’re trying to have integrity, and the way that you’re communicating about content, no matter what field you’re in, I would argue that you’re probably going to end up in a situation where it’s much more complex than 240 characters, or however long your Instagram caption can be, until people stop reading. It’s much too complex. For this kind of like short form. Copy that is kind of the cornerstone of marketing today.
And that’s not to knock copywriting at all. That’s not to say that short form writing is bad. But it is to say a lot of people find themselves in a situation where they’re trying to market or communicate about a concept, the concept is complex as hell. And then they have this space, that does not fit the complexity of what they’re trying to say. So what happens is, in order to draw boundaries around this very complex, almost murky in a good way, thing, people will say what the thing isn’t. And when you’re saying like, you know, whether you’re in fitness, and you’re saying like, Hey, we’re not, this is just an example. Or actually, this isn’t a pertinent example, so my husband owns a gym. And at the gym, we do strength sports, we also do strength and conditioning,
Brett Bartholomew 38:02
Give them the name of the gym, sorry to butt in, but I want them to know the name so they can support it.
Courtney Kelly 38:06
Oh, thank you, Strength Ratio, in Asheville. And there’s sort of an online component as well. But anyway, with both the online and the on site, an issue that we ran into a lot is that when people walked into the gym and saw barbells, and saw people doing clean and jerks and snatches, or deadlifts, squats and bench presses, immediately, they thought, oh, you’re a CrossFit gym. And it became kind of challenging to say, like, No, we’re strength sports. And we have this strength and conditioning component for those that are not interested in competing in strength sports.
And eventually, we had to start saying, we’re not cross, what we are is not CrossFit. We kind of had to start there. And what can happen, I think, especially with things that are very fraught topics that are very contentious today, people will say, Well, who I am is not blocked. I’m not on the right. I’m not on the left, or you know what I’m saying? Like I’m not, I don’t support red, I don’t support blue, because maybe saying what you do support is more complicated. So it becomes an easy way to express who you are. And I think that kind of feeds the the beast.
Brett Bartholomew 39:31
Yeah, no, I think that’s a great example. Especially because, and it’s funny because what a wonderful and you mentioned like, using the term pertinent example, before CrossFit, what would they have said about that gym, right? Because they’d be like, Oh, this is a hardcore gym or this is a you mentioned deadlifts, a powerlifting gym or if they saw the clean and jerk Oh, this is a weightlifting gym. And really, the general public didn’t know the difference between those things. You know whatsoever, I mean, CrossFit. Isn’t that real? It hasn’t been around that long that people prior to that day Know what that meant.
And so it’s funny that now that term becomes this. And I just remember, even back when I started training athletes, we would do GPP circuits just to do a little training nerdery here. And you know, I remember the first time we were doing a circuit just to improve somebody’s general capacity. For those of you listening not in the field, it’s just raising one’s fitness level, which don’t think of fitness as the popular idea of fitness. Fitness is basically an organism’s ability to do a task. So athletes can come in deconditioned, we have to do high volume general work, it might be a circuit, it might be a barbell complex, or what have you.
Now, if you do a circuit or a complex, that’s CrossFit, I’m like, Well, no, these principles were around quite a while before then just kind of somebody, you know, we think of the internet and HTML and code or whatever, there’s terms we use around that, that are new terms, but they’re really older concepts. And I remember somebody saying, Tell me what year somebody created. And I’ll tell you what it was called before then. But building end of this, and you talked about writing and something you do very well have written, read some of your work. And we’re working together, right, like for the audience, a spoiler alert, Courtney is a contributing editor to my next book. And so we wanted to put that one in there.
But you know, you ever really helped me as well, because I got caught into some habits with writing, especially as I’m even still working my way through some burnout, and what have you writing, when we talk about the medium, certain mediums of communication, can really kind of take it out of me more than others, having conversations like this fills my cup. There are certain times when writing fills my cup. There’s other times where, depending on other life, stressors, writing is more likely than a conversation to also drain me, because there’s so much
If we have people listening, what are some exercises that can help them improve their writing in general, so they can complete specific tasks more efficiently, if they’re not the kind of author you are? Or the kind of writer you are? Because that’s another mode of communication. That’s intimidating to people, but they want to use these contexts rich, medium. So would you mind going into that a little bit? If you’re comfortable?
Courtney Kelly 42:14
Yeah, totally. And, you know, it’s interesting, I think, one of the things about writing is that it’s because it’s a lifelong practice, it’s something that, you know, people evolve with and improve over the entire course of their lives. It’s a reason why, you know, you’re still considered a very young author when you’re, you know, between 45 and 50. And so, you know, I think that’s on the one hand, it’s really exciting, because it’s a realm where there’s growth, that can live alongside you, which is really cool. But on the flip side, it can also feel very intimidating that this is this, like, this is a skill where there’s literally like Hemingway said, you know, this, we’re all apprentices in a craft, where no one is a master.
So Mastery is kind of, I mean, depends on how you look at it on a philosophical level, but from, the way I look at it is, you know, it’s, you are always trying to get it, but you’re never gonna get there. And that excites me, but it’s also intimidating.
Brett Bartholomew 43:23
Sure.
Courtney Kelly 43:23
And I think, you know, for one thing that I have recognized, especially, you know, with working with my husband, and seeing how much writing he produces throughout the day, as a fitness business owner, whether it’s copy for social media posts, or emails or client communications, prospect communications, there’s just so much throughout the day, that a coach or a fitness business owner or any leader is writing when it’s a process that doesn’t feel comfortable when it feels draining, that can be a huge impediment in your day and I know that coaches leaders, what have you, like there’s just so much else that you need to work on having writing be this thing that’s like this kind of behemoth project that’s like standing in the way of you connecting with a client can be really frustrating
And can like, kind of perpetuate that cycle of like, oh, I don’t want to do this and it’s frustrating me and now it’s taking me longer because I have this negative emotion associated with it and all of this stuff and so what I would say, you know, I think with writing, there’s no like quick hacks or anything like this, like with most skills, but one of the biggest things is actually reading fiction that you like, and I know that it seems like okay, when are you going to have time in the day to add your already reading the books that you need for whatever your businesses or your or where your clients need you to read what have you.
Now, I’m asking you to put fiction on top of that. But I guess what I mean to say is if you can fit it in, even like before bed, or like, first thing in the morning, or maybe replace some, if you watch TV at night, maybe replace a little bit of that with some reading, and to choose an author who’s writing you like, you know, it doesn’t have to be someone that’s considered like a class like part of the literary canon or anything like that, just someone who’s writing you like and read and read that and enjoy it and don’t put any pressure on it. And when you get the opportunity, find a passage that you really enjoy.
I have a really good friend who I helped with this, and she loved Chuck colonic. And I don’t know, for anyone that’s not familiar, he’s like, famous for these really long, really, like, gross paragraphs that are like totally like to describe, they make you uncomfortable. They’re incredibly descriptive fight clubs based, you know, fight clubs, one of his books and stuff. And anyway, she came across a passag that she thought was, like, delightfully out there. And so she copied. So what you do is you find a passage, you literally copy it word for word, I recommend handwriting because it slows you down. It doesn’t have to be too long.
But as you’re copying, what you’re reading, what you’re doing there is engaging with the text on a deeper level, and starting to just reinforce this process of storing different types of syntax like sentence structures, word usage, voices, you’re storing that in your mind, and you can use it later. And so that’s really the first thing that I would say is like, read something you love, I recommend fiction, because in fiction, the, like, the writing is kind of a thing, you know, so the writing 10, you can find writing that is kind of across the board. So it’s easier to find something that you really connect with, I think, and then writing down a passage word for word, when you have the opportunity can really help.
Brett Bartholomew 47:32
Yeah, yeah, keep going.
Courtney Kelly 47:34
No, no, sorry. So that was going to be the first thing that, I would say. And it’s also a creative writing, it’s like a staple in creative writing too in terms of an exercise that you’ll do in, you know, if you pursue creative writing, it’ll pop up somewhere. And another thing that I would highly recommend is just when you can to seek out some feedback on like, from someone that you trust, who’s maybe not like you said, Not, you know, family, or a close friend, but someone who has a sort of a skill with communication that you, you know, respect and you look up to, just to ask them every now and again, like, Hey, what did you think about this post that I wrote? Or what do you think about this email and just really, like, kind of opening yourself up to feedback on your writing
When you have the time, I think, is also really important. And it can also, it can be brutal, sometimes, like, I think the other thing about creative writing is that like it really, I mean, it’s an exercise in getting a really thick skin. Because that is so important to like to be able to have this kind of feedback that’s honest about something that you’ve produced, linguistically, and to hear the good, but also to hear the bad. And then to know that it’s not personal, and to sort of divorce yourself a little bit from what you’ve produced, so that you can again, see it from this like, almost scientific perspective, like, okay, how can I use this to help me grow and improve?
Brett Bartholomew 49:20
Yeah, I think, I’m writing down some notes of what you said, and I’m really grateful that you didn’t give the classic toss up advice of how to be a better writer. And I want to think about how to say this as concisely as possible. But this is a conversation right? I think, where I struggled a lot is, one let’s just talk about the old cliche of like time management, right? I found that I very much am a believer in managing energy instead of time. So I love Steven Pressfield. I love kind of, you know there are many writers that I enjoy and in terms of their own take on how to be a better writer. So like, The War of Art and things like that.
But generally when you hear certain writers talk about or authors talk about writing, it’s, you know, commit to it, find a time do this disable distractions, what have you. And that’s all very, I mean, who am I to say that’s not good information. But for people that are multi passionate, or folks like your husband, who you mentioned, and when I learned how I was judging myself inappropriately, that ain’t my day job, my day job. I think some people forget, and maybe it’s helpful for some of the audience out there. There’s folks like the Malcolm Gladwell is of the world and there’s folks like, you know, and name your author, right kind of a popular author
They get an advance that allows them to sit and write, they get paid in the pontification stage, they may get research assistance, they’ll get help from the publisher. That’s what they get to do. So where I burned myself out, and I thought of myself too critically, is I was like, Well, why I can’t turn this off, I can’t do that all this noise is entering my life. And it’s making my writing crappy. And I’m listening to these people’s advice, but I can’t do it. I can’t turn my phone off, my dad might have a stroke, because he’s got heart problem this, and I was just like, Oh, my God, dude, quit listening to this shit. Because it’s not for you.
It’s well intentioned, but like, you’ve just got to manage your time, or I’m sorry, you’ve got to manage your energy, right? When you feel like writing, and somebody would say, well, that’s not good advice. Cuz you got to sit down, and you’ve got to make it, you know, the Muse isn’t always gonna find you or whatever. But I just think it goes to this one size fits all advice that has permeated a lot of things. And you can’t always escape it, right. Like I said, these authors are usually giving this advice with great intentions just like you are. But why I’m glad you didn’t go that route is because not everybody can utilize that.
Because how many of us can’t afford to just have one job, how many of us are getting $300,000 advances? How many of us are doing these things where we can just sit and write and focus? Sometimes you have to create and wander and explore and read fiction. And I know there’s been some times we’re going on your fiction, like I watched an episode of Game of Thrones, and I’m like, Oh, shit, that brought me right back to something I taught at a workshop content machines rolling again, sit down and write. I think another thing that helped and I’d be interested on your take on this, and this is my own self discovery is you have to give yourself permission to not hold yourself to the same expectations every time you do something
meaning, I’m still very much caught up on the, I think about my doctoral thesis right now I’m spending way too much time trying to make it perfect. To the point that I wasn’t going off of the assumption of knowledge. I was just explaining everything in citing everything. And all this or when I wrote an email, I run a communication company, I want to make sure every email was warm and what have you. But then I started to realize, put some boundaries on it, Brett. And I tell people just like when I interact with you, when we started working together, I said, Hey, Courtney, you might sometimes get texts or emails that are abrupt, it may not always have perfect grammar.
I’m not gonna be you know, crazy sloppy, but there are many times when I’m running through an airplane terminal, or what have you. I just need a mutual agreement here that you understand that I might be brief. I’m not trying to be rude. And you’re just acknowledgement of that saved me energy so that when I had to write the bigger projects, or the social media copy, or my newsletter copy, I had given less of myself away with this standard of perfectionism somewhere else. So I could give more of myself to this. Does that make sense? Or am I speaking gibberish?
Courtney Kelly 53:33
Yeah, totally. And this is something that I think is so important. Is this concept that like, and this is something that I think about a lot where your best writing happens when I say best, I’m not necessarily saying like, it’s perfect. And whatever way you define it, I’m actually saying like writing that’s going to help you grow. That happens in this kind of like, you know, in between having a deadline and having the time to think through things. The deadline is important. It’s important, because it’s going to stop you from going down those rabbit holes of like, oh, no, this isn’t as good as well as something I produced before. How do I make it better, I need to redo it, I need to structure it a different way.
That kind of thinking is not going to promote growth. Ultimately, it’s not about every single piece of writing being perfect. It’s about continuing to produce content. It’s about continuing to get feedback on your content. And it’s also about kind of experimenting with different, you know, trying on different types of sentence styles if you haven’t tried different ways of kind of organizing your structuring your sentences or different voices or what have you. I think in a way A like, it’s, you need kind of like the right amount of pressure, but not too much, right? Like there’s times when you can have not enough, you know, you just don’t have enough time to write what you want to write.
And honestly, that’s not necessarily a bad thing, if it like, if your job is different than if you’re not a writer, and you have other things that you’re doing, it’s okay, that you don’t have that much time to produce, you know, content, like, as long as you’re producing the content and it’s within the realm of like, someone’s going to perceive this and understand what I need them to perceive. They’re not going to see this and be confused. That’s okay. You know, and I think just like, there’s so much I don’t know, snobbery is not necessarily the right word, but like, there’s just a lot of pressure, I think, on writing, and what it should be.
And I think just like anything it has to fit, it has to fit you and it has to fit the circumstance. And so you know, my advice for someone who’s wanting to become more efficient and effective with their writing, because they also have other things that they’re doing throughout the day. You know, again, it’s read fiction, or like you said, like, interact with media that you like, and like really kind of be there for it. Really, like enjoy it. Because the more language you’re kind of immersing yourself in, the better, you know, you can’t go wrong there. So just enjoy, like, enjoy some good books, enjoy some good, you know, well written TV shows, there’s like a ton out there right now.
And I think the other piece is, you know, kind of see deadlines as like, they’re actually going to help you, you know, they’re going to kind of take away this emphasis to make everything perfect. And I mean, not all my writing is I mean, it’s there. Like there are times when I’ve posted things, and I noticed Oh, there’s a typo, there’s a spelling error. Well, you know, bummer, but I didn’t have very much time to do it. And I had a lot of other things to do throughout the day. And my message so got across. I think that the last piece of advice, which I want to make sure I hit on, because it’s been so helpful for me, has also been to if you have like Grammarly, spellcheck, an online thesaurus, all of these tools that can help expedite writing.
My advice is to use them as a check, don’t use them in the process of writing, because you don’t want to get to a place where you rely on them. And the biggest example of this is something actually Brett, I was talking to you about before where I had to work on my squats, because I had learned how to use the balance at the bottom to safely lift more weight. But then I was using it all the time. And it became this crutch. And then I didn’t have confidence in myself as a squatter, with different kind of like, say, if I was using a safety squat bar, for example, or if I was practicing, like a new, typically a high bar squat. But if I was practicing low bar, like, then all of a sudden, like I’m bringing my weight way down, because I don’t know how to use the bounce.
And if I was in a place where if I couldn’t use that bounce, then I just didn’t have confidence. And the reason this is so important in writing is every single time you sit at your computer and think really hard about the right word, and like just think through it, maybe you write down a bunch of synonyms and until you get to the right one, that’s creating a neural pathway that you need, that’s helping you become more efficient at pulling different types of, you know, like, basically like using more of your lexicon, using more of this, like library of syntax that you have stored.
And when you I’m not saying like not to knock grammerly, or the source or anything like this, but if you use that in real time, if you say like I want a word that’s like, I want a word, that’s like glib, but that’s not glib. And like you just type in, you’re training yourself to do that, instead of going back into your reservoir of knowledge that you already have. And if you at first it’s super oh my gosh, there’s moments where literally I’m like banging my head against the wall. Like why can I think of this word why? But the more you do it, the faster you get at it. So in the long run, it makes you more efficient than relying on the sort of technological kind of assistance
Brett Bartholomew 1:00:03
Yeah. Oh, go ahead.
Courtney Kelly 1:00:05
No, I was gonna say, but definitely, I mean for sure. For example, my biggest weakness, I’m not a great speller at all, never have been there. So that’s something where, like, I turned spellcheck off when I write the first time, but then I, but then I turned it on. And I see everything I spelled wrong. And I but at least I’ve like, given myself a chance to practice kind of spelling correctly using my own kind of skill set using my own neurology and then to kind of, then before I deliver, like, Brett, if I was editing and you know, didn’t check the spelling, then I might deliver something to you, that’s riddled with spelling error. So that’s not what I want to do. So use the tools, but just use them as a check.
Brett Bartholomew 1:00:57
Yeah, and I’m glad to use that example. I remember even just working with conscious coaching, when we had uploaded it through CreateSpace, which is now part of Kindle Direct Publishing, and their technology, like jumbled a bunch of words. So even though we had had several editors gone through it, we had gone through it, we uploaded the manuscript, you know, just as it should be. Or some of our early copies. And this was back in 2017. People were getting some misspellings, right, like, and I remember one was talking about goals, and the word timely was supposed to, like it ended up being like Ryan Lee
And people were, you know, putting stuff on social media, like love this book, but then they DM me and be like, Hey, man, quick heads up, you know, there’s an error on page like, 89. I’m like, what? And I look at our manuscript, and ours was fine. And we had to go back and forth with Amazon so much, because Nothing’s worse than having to run a correction. You know, we had these books going out all over the world. And it was like, it was just odd because it was a technological issue. You know, I reached out to even some of the and I was like, No, and it made me smile because Maria Popova from brain pickings wrote this, and I’m not going to pronounce this correctly.
But she goes, and I’m quoting her, yes, sometimes those spelling’s are hard. The president of Turkmenistan is Gurbanguly Mälikgulyýewiç Berdimuhamedow but believe me, Nothing’s worse than running a correction. And when if you think that name was hard for me to pronunciate, you should look at how it’s spelled. But her point was like, you just got to slow that down. And I think sometimes like, it’s I don’t try to impress people, either by bringing in these esoteric facts. I think that can, and I think that almost this TED style of writing has done this. I started to notice, almost this, what’s the word I want to look for? It was a formulaic thing of somebody must have told people the key to writing a best selling book is tell a story about some, you know, leader we’ve heard through throughout history.
And then make sure there’s an interesting fact that somebody really didn’t know like, maybe Hey, Steve Jobs had a phobia of buttons. That’s why he wore these black turtlenecks, that’s really part of the reason why the iPhone didn’t have buttons did it? Or like, tell us something that’s kind of captivating, then extract some lessons from it, and then be like, you too, can be like this person. And then, you know, the books that I’d kind of read from a lot of these TED Talk, folks. It was just, it was almost the same thing. They lean on all these interesting stories. But at the end, you felt okay, these are cool stories. But like, what can I actually utilize right?
Like, this was very hard. And the point I’m making from that, as I remember, another piece of advice is like being proleptic of like this Greek word that comes from anticipation. Like, sometimes you need stories in a book for sure. And I understand their allure, like storytelling is a huge cultural force. But sometimes you just need to get to the major objection of what somebody would say about the argument and raising it in advance, right, like part of the book we’re working on together, right is about the gray area and leadership, how it’s messy, and you’re not always going to be able to make decisions that everybody thinks are going to agree with.
But guess what, welcome to the field, like welcome to what it means to have skin in the game. And it’s not a matter of what’s good or bad. It’s about the full story or compositional exposition of what leadership is. And guess what, it’s the gray area. And if people sometimes we just try to get to the damn point of what they’re saying and make a simple argument, instead of trying to impress I think that can help too but we’re all guilty of it. Because we’re so scared myself included, that the readers not going to be entertained within 10 minutes like I mean, think about how many times you tell a friend Oh, check out this show.
They’re like yeah, I watched one episode I didn’t really do it. I’m like, What the hell are you gonna learn in one episode like give it at least five I couldn’t get into madmen at the beginning. I couldn’t get into the wire. I couldn’t get in Maybe and then eventually, when I gave them five or six hours, I’m like, Oh, now I, but people don’t read the first 100 pages anymore. They want to be entertained right away, which is why people go to these saccharin type Sugar Rush books that they give you a cute quote, but then the rest of it is just like, cool. I hope it looks good on your bookshelf, you know,
Courtney Kelly 1:05:21
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think I, again, I think this cycles back or circles back to what we had talked about before with this, like, you know, with more polarization and with people speaking different languages, it’s almost like, and when I say that, I don’t mean like, different. I mean,
Brett Bartholomew 1:05:42
We know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. My audience, they should know what you mean. Otherwise, they’re listening to the wrong podcast.
Courtney Kelly 1:05:50
But yeah, so I think that really goes back to it. And so there’s this kind of, it’s this like, place in journalism and writing this kind of ethical conundrum that happens where, you know, you say, like, Hey, I have this message. But I need like, the message is basically a moot point, unless it gets to anybody’s ears, in the world that we live in people’s, you know, are sort of trained now to interact with writing that’s incredibly short, and like punchy and to the point, and again, not to knock it but like, that’s what, for some people, that’s like, the only writing they’re encountering, so anything different. When you’re an author, when you’re a reporter, a journalist, what have you, you’re running the risk of losing the person before the message can get to that.
And, there’s sort of two ways that this can happen. I mean, there’s the first way, which is attention, but then there’s a second way, which is, you know, you’ve accidentally, like refer to something that might trigger a very negative reaction for this person, and then cause them to stop reading. And I would say, like, you know, in the same way, that there’s a lot of gray area, there’s concessions that you have to make as an author and a reader and a journalist, sometimes you have to have an article that’s a little bit more, you know, quote unquote, sensational, because you need people to like, it’s a message that’s really important that you need people to understand.
But sometimes if the message is sensational, and then it actually doesn’t reflect what you’re trying to say, Well, now you’ve gone too far. Now you’ve crossed over the boundary, you’re out of the gray, and you’re into something that’s, there’s no integrity, there’s no fidelity to what you actually wanted to communicate. And I think similarly, you know, there’s a point where, like, you know, saying, referring to whether it’s a national event or something like this, like, sometimes you have to refer to these things. And knowing that they’re highly polarizing topics, it can be scary to include that within writing, because you don’t want people to see like this national event, and then to stop reading your book, because they’re like, oh, no, I don’t want to hear what this person has to say.
But if that national event is an example of something that you’re trying to communicate, and it’s a critical example, then you have to kind of see if there’s a way to kind of like, soften the blow, but still include what you have to include. And if someone’s going to put your book down because of a mention, and not actually read the context around that. That’s a bummer. But, you can’t, you know, it’s like the old saying goes like you can’t write for everyone, because then you can’t, then you’re not writing anything. You have to write to your ideal kind of audience in mind. And, and that means sometimes you’re making concessions. You know, in some places, you’re shortening things up, you’re cutting some coffee, and you’re kind of like heightening up the sensationalism. And then other times, you’re saying like, I’m sorry, I can’t like I can’t do that.
Brett Bartholomew 1:09:16
No, yeah, very well said. Because it’s, again, this tenant that people accept facts that come to them through existing familiar or comfortable channels, right. We know that people like to hear new things, or even old things in accustom ways. So to your point, yeah, if they’re reading, and we mentioned in the work that we’re doing together, right, there are aspects of national events because I’m producing like this book is coming out, even though I didn’t want to have a new book come out for another three years, or what have you. There’s too many things that went on during COVID. And what have you that presented this understanding of gray area and the importance of communication.
And so right, there’s examples that we give in things like education and sport, and they’re also our national events and like I’m not a heavily political person from the sense of like, I’m involved, right? Like I vote and do those things. But like, if you were to come over to dinner, I’m not going to be like, so who wants to talk politics, right? Like that’s not like we’re definitely involved with, you know, caring about the things that we should care about. But people, any hint of these things, it’s like they don’t want to talk about it’s like.
Well, listen, you can’t hide from everything. And you need to we need to have when I raise my son, one of the first things I’m going to teach him is just like, hey, you need to be able to converse on a wide array of topics. That’s just, that’s part of being a gentleman, right? Because he’s a boy. And that’s just part of being a well rounded human being is you need to do these things. And right, like, I shouldn’t have said that, because now there’ll be people that’d be like, well, just because he’s a boy doesn’t mean he’s a gentleman. I don’t have time for that kind of shit. But the point being is, people have to broaden the ambit of their concerns, they have to broaden the ambit of their interests, they have to broaden the ambit of their communication.
Courtney Kelly 1:10:58
Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, I think that part of, we’re always coming back to the communication is social communication involves at least two people, probably more. And so just like anything that that’s social, or that involves multiple people, there’s a given take, there’s concessions that the producer of the communication has to make. But then there’s also concessions that the receiver has to make, you know, just like in the leadership dynamic, there’s accountability that a leader has to have, and there’s accountability that the follower has to have. And it’s the same thing in communication.
And I think that’s something that can be really scary, is that there’s just so much, especially in the realm of social media, there’s so much pressure on the producer of the communication to make everything right for every possible viewer
Brett Bartholomew 1:11:58
So annoying.
Courtney Kelly 1:12:00
Yeah, but there’s no accountability for the receiver. Right. And so and that’s really important, because, you know, again, like, if so like, just as an example, if I encounter something on social media, and it like, I bristle, because of something I’ve read, I can’t just fire back right away and say, like, Hey, this is, you know, this is wrong, or something like this. And of course, of course, this is just like anything else. Like, there’s a lot of gray. But then there’s also boundaries, like there’s things that some people can say where I’m like, No, that’s wrong. No.
But I’m talking about like, gray area. So something that kind of makes me uncomfortable or bristle or whatever. Before I react, like I need to take a step back and like think about why am I reacting that way? Need to like, it’s not that I’m invalidating my reaction, just to say like, why, like to investigate that a little bit to investigate the producer of the communication like, Okay, well, where do I think they’re coming from? And that’s an exercise that I think needs like social media isn’t a great platform for it. Sorry, I’m on my soapbox about social media. I didn’t mean to,
Brett Bartholomew 1:13:14
No you’re fine.
Courtney Kelly 1:13:16
Yeah. Yeah. But it’s what it is, you know, the channel, we talked about the channel and the medium, the channel of social media is one in which is very, very, very easy, almost minimal effort is required to submit a comment. And what I would just say is, you know, before, I would just advocate that before a comments is submitted for many of the things that fall into gray area, just to kind of, for the receiver of the communication to just take a beat and like, think about it, evaluate it a little bit. And just kind of remembering that, like, within communication, there’s onus on the producer, but there’s almost also on the receiver.
Brett Bartholomew 1:14:02
I think that’s a wonderful message. And it fits into you know, as we wrap up this show, we always have podcast reflections, right. Ali Kershner, a member of the our staff does these were for every single episode, and they’re always free. People can download these things and do reflections because we got really tired of people just being like, ah, you know, I go through podcasts, this and this and this, but it’s like, okay, well, what are you doing, right? Because there’s this idea that podcast creators, right, I should always put out new episodes and we’re always going to we love it right? But like, oh, I should always have new episodes or we shouldn’t have redundant topics and we shouldn’t do this. And it’s like, okay, well, what then what are you doing with it?
You know, what are you doing or like when people like I started posting less on Instagram, not necessarily just always in frequency, but like my deeper stuff. We put on talking about channel. We have this app called Marco Polo channels and people have to pay for it because we put a lot of time into it and we have to pay for it. But you know, we Have these courses and other things where we have a higher fidelity content in terms of context and whatever, but then I’ll have people that will be like, Well, why don’t you put this on social media? It’s like, well, I could just as easily ask you, why don’t you join these other channels? Because social media isn’t, there’s too many constraints on this.
And then I remember one person trying to turn something Well, if you understood it well enough, you should be able to explain to a six year old and character shouldn’t be, you know, this and that and I go, Okay, well, then why don’t you ask a musician why they don’t do a whole concert on social media. It’s not about understanding something well enough. It’s also about again, the fidelity of it. But we could go on for a long time with this, I do want to, we are going to do a part two without a doubt. But in the meantime, as we wrap up, where can people learn more about you support you support your guys gym, your work? Give us the goods? I’ll make sure and put it in the show notes. And then we’re gonna get you scheduled for a round two down the road.
Courtney Kelly 1:15:54
Oh, awesome. Well, thank you so much, um, people can find me on my website, which is courtneykellywrites.com. And so there I have some of my personal writing, but also information about my writing services. So the copywriting that I do, editing, ghost riding, stuff like that is also listed there. And in terms of our fitness, business, that strength ratio, so you can go to strengthratiohq.com. And you can see there, what’s offered in terms of on site training or online services. Yeah, that’s really awesome. Thank you.
Brett Bartholomew 1:16:36
No, it’s my pleasure. And thank you for being able or being willing rather, to go some places that I know can be uncomfortable and then giving such tactical insight and a warm and personal way. I appreciate working with you. I appreciate you looking over my own shortcomings as I manage one of the most easily hectic periods of my life where I’m over committed and always been forgiving and helpful. Yeah, and it’s a pleasure. So we’ll get you back for round two and guys, for myself and Courtney Kelly. Until next time, this has been the art of coaching podcast, signing off
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