In Art Of Coaching Podcast

In our industry, those who have a large brand, social media presence or product (regardless of value or purpose) are often met with critiques, sneers, and snide remarks like “what a sellout”…

It’s difficult to put yourself out there when surrounded by a profession that has long told you the secret to success is to put your head down and work harder but no one will hear your message or benefit from your product if you don’t share it with them… So how do you stand out without selling out?

In today’s episode, you’ll hear from two people who have managed to stay true to their message, provide real and useful content and get it to their community without resorting to gimmicks or sleazy sales tactics. 

Dennis and Kelsey Heenan are Co-Founders of the fitness company HIITBURN and have worked with thousands of people across the world through their workout app and programs. Dennis specializes in email marketing, Facebook advertising, and copy writing for his businesses and as a consultant. Kelsey is a certified trainer and nutrition coach. Her personal brand, The Daily Kelsey focuses on helping people improve their relationship with food and their bodies. Along with being business partners, Dennis and Kelsey have also been married for over a decade.

In today’s episode we cover: 

  • How to cater your message to a specific audience
  • Leveraging hardship into a tool for clarifying your purpose
  • Copywriting and funnel building 101 
  • How even the most social media averse can scale their message
  • Working with your spouse – how does that work?!

Connect with Dennis and Kelsey:


Via Instagram: @hiitburn, @thedailykelsey, @denheen

If you’re looking to clarify your message, find your unique audience, and market in a way that doesn’t feel schemey or salesy, check out OUR online toolkit, BLINDSPOT™!


Dennis Heenan  0:00  

It’s hard to put yourself out there, especially on social media, you’re always going to get hate no matter what, no matter what you do. I mean, we get hate comments on how healthy looks every single day. Like your arms are too manly. You don’t have boobs, like 


Brett Bartholomew  0:12  



Dennis Heenan  0:12  

Oh, yeah, every day.


Brett Bartholomew  0:14  

I guess that’s what happens when you have like, half a million followers. I mean, it’s rule of law numbers, you’re bound to have some clowns, for sure.


Dennis Heenan  0:19  

Yeah, you’re so you’re going to get hate. And so it’s hard to put yourself out there. But the thing is, in this day and age that we live in, like, it’s important to do so. And it’s important if you want to get your message out. Social media is one of the best and easiest ways to do it. 


Kelsey Heenan  0:34  

And you don’t have to do tick tock dances to be relevant. You know what I mean? Like, if that’s your thing, and that’s your personality, that’s amazing. But for you know, maybe some of those coaches who are like social media is selling out it’s like, well, no, but your your message could reach so many more people you could have, you know, you can be successful and also stay true to who you are and without great stuff.


Brett Bartholomew  1:06  

Welcome to the Art of coaching podcast, a show aimed at getting to the core of what it takes to change attitudes, behaviors and outcomes in the weight room, boardroom classroom, and everywhere in between. I’m your host, Brett Bartholomew, I’m a performance coach, keynote speaker, and the author of the book conscious coaching. But most importantly, I’m a lifelong student interested in all aspects of human behavior and communication. I want to thank you for joining me. And now let’s dive into today’s episode.


Hey, it’s Brett here. And before we start the show, I haven’t asked, given the challenges of 2020, as well as the challenges many are still facing due to the pandemic, we’ve seen an unprecedented number of people change jobs, shift the focus of their business, and even make the decision to strike out on their own. This isn’t industry specific. Neither is our work at art of coaching. As you may know, I started out in the performance space as a strength and conditioning coach, and I still serve in that capacity for part of my year. But the larger focus of our work at art of coaching is centered on helping leaders across all fields deal with the messy realities of leadership, coaching and communication. You heard me right, we do not just surf coaches in the sporting community are a strength and conditioning community. We use the term coaching as a synonym for leadership. So if you guide you teach you mentor, anything like that, whether in a large business or a mom and pop shop, or a sports team, that’s who we serve. And this is why we make an effort to include guests from a wide variety of fields on this show, then we also make it a point to tackle topics that not a lot of other podcasts in this space are willing to discuss. So candidly, but none of that matters without your support, word of mouth, and reviews. So if you know somebody who would benefit from listening to this show, or you have a community or a newsletter of your own, we’d appreciate you telling them about the podcasts, we realize we’re not perfect. I realize I’m not for everybody. But we and I do our best with a small remote team of people to bring hard hitting topics in a tactical and transparent manner to you. We’re grassroots and no nonsense, like many of you. So please share an episode with somebody you know, leave a review on iTunes or become a patron at That’s And no, we don’t take it for granted. And you have our word, we’re always going to continue to do our best for you. And of course, thank you. 


Okay, on today’s show, husband and wife, Dennis and Kelsey Heenan, now they are the cofounders of the fitness company Hit Burn. And they’ve worked with 1000s of people across the world through their workout app, their programs, and the strategies that we’re going to get into on today’s show, which by the way, are fundamental to any business or industry or individual who wants to make a bigger impact and be more efficient. So when you hear fitness, you should not be thinking, well, this isn’t for me, every leader knows that there is something you can learn from every field. And there’s far more in common with nearly every field and the individuals in those fields. Then there is things that are different. Dennis in particular specializes in email marketing, Facebook, advertising and copywriting for his businesses and also works as a consultant. And Kelsey is a certified trainer and nutrition coach, her personal brand The Daily Kelsey focuses on helping people improve their relationship with food and their bodies, which is critical, especially if you know my story, and you’re also gonna get to know her as well. 


Along with being business partners. Dennis and Kelsey have also been married for over a decade. So congratulations on that. That’s no small feat. So in this episode we deconstruct everything from how we can leverage hardships into a tool for clarifying our purpose, how to better speak the language of those who served so that you can keep people from following bad guidance and advice. And what it really means to build a funnel for a digital business. All stuff that is foreign to many people was certainly foreign to me. It seems like witchcraft at first and usually thinks it’s, you know, sneaky or sales tactics, but it’s not it’s the way of the world and E commerce and what have you. We also talked about how even the most social media verse can scale their impact, regardless of industry, simply by being themselves and just applying a little bit of strategy. So without further ado, here is Dennis and Kelsey.


Kelsey, and, Dennis, welcome to the show.


Kelsey Heenan  5:53  

Thank you so much for having us. 


Brett Bartholomew  5:54  

Now, listen, it was a no brainer, especially and we’ve talked about this a little bit off air. You know, so much of what we do at art of coaching is helping whether it’s coaches or executives or leaders kind of tell their story, and build their brand in a way that helps them stand out without selling out. And so it’s a no brainer to get you guys on because even if certain members of our audience aren’t familiar with you, you know, I look at what you guys have built and the Empire you’ve built. And it’s just a masterclass for any leader in any organization of how to keep people engaged, how to put content out there, that kind of walks this line of like, sometimes you’ve got to meet people where they’re at and use certain verbiage. And other times, you’ve got to stay a little bit more closer and convicting to kind of core values and what you’re saying. But you’ve got to show these different faces at different times, especially now in this digital age. And you guys have just done this in a really unique, impactful way from the way you market yourself, digitally, to the way you formulate your content. So I mean, well done on that front. And I’d love to learn a little bit more about, you know, how did you guys start to craft this? Obviously, you have your story. And we’ll get into that. And we’ll talk about the unique roles you play within the business. But just in terms of this period, in particular, like COVID and everything else, how have you guys addressed like really finding and engaging your audience the way you have?


Kelsey Heenan  7:16  

I mean, in COVID in particular, we’ve had to make some changes, for example, in Hiit Burn and we both like right before COVID hit, we had a challenge planned that included dumbbells. And so then lockdowns happen, and we realized we cannot release this challenge right now. So we very quickly pivoted and, you know, created a whole new thing in a very short amount of time. So we created this bodyweight challenge, and it really resonated with our people. Everyone was so excited. It was was that our biggest challenge? Yeah, those are your sales, that biggest challenge ever, you know, and so being able to kind of, like walk the line of being able to create the things that we want to create, that we know are getting beneficial for people, but also kind of read the room and and know like, what are people needing in this moment right now?


Dennis Heenan  8:08  

Yeah, I think you have to adapt quickly. And that’s what one thing COVID did teach us because we literally had the full challenge planned. It was supposed to launch I think March 30. And lock downs started happening March 15. So within 15, Well, essentially, within seven days, we had created a brand new challenge, because we’ve just basically sat down, we got our team together, we’re like, hey, we need to make this a bodyweight workout program, we need to make sure the workouts are really good. This is what people need, because they don’t a lot of people at that time, didn’t have home equipment, more people have it now. But most people were still going to the gym and all that stuff. So we yeah, we adapted very, very quickly. And that’s something that we’ve learned just over the years, like, you know, we put out a program, it’s done very poorly, we’ll make quick changes and see if it does better in certain ways. Maybe it’s the marketing message or, you know, whatever that is, but yeah, that was one thing that COVID really taught us was being able to adapt and do it quickly.


Brett Bartholomew  9:03  

Well, it’s been fascinating with that to watch other industries and there’s always so many things that are co linear and complimentary as this time has come like you look at education, for example, a good friend of mine works at Kansas State University and another friend another university, they talked about the challenges that educators have had going virtual I mean, there’s a lot of times we talked about building buy in a lot in this show. Something else I think you guys do a really good job of but they’re having trouble getting tenured professors to adapt and you know, say hey, we’ve got to go online now we’ve got to do this and I understand that the visual medium and this medium may not be fun and what have you but we see areas in education have really struggled we’ve seen other industries do really well the fitness industry among them right and I think you guys lead so much of that. What is it? You know what skill set do you think is unnecessary besides a mindset of just needing to be adaptive and be open minded? Right, we get that. What do you think is the necessary skill set now, for people really in any industry to be able to engage people from afar to be able to give them stuff that is educational, and relevant and keeps them you know, if you want to use the term inspired or what have you are there any kind of key tenants that you found with your audience that really helps you do those things where others might struggle?


Kelsey Heenan  10:18  

A few things. So one of my things is knowing who you’re talking to, sometimes it’s easy to want to try and do all the things that are you know, working right now and things like that. And in your book, you do a good job of explaining, you know, the different archetypes and like knowing the athletes that you’re talking to. And that’s something that I think is really important in the online fitness space that we’re in as well, who is our audience and being able to cater the messaging to that, which Dennis is an incredible copywriter. So So having those skills is really essential.


Dennis Heenan  10:53  

Yeah, it really comes down to the messaging, and it’s remembering, you know, you just mentioned, when you’re writing your next book, you have that person right in front of you. Not everyone in the world, like you’re you’re not going after everyone in the world, you have a specific message for a certain group of people. And so not everyone is going to be attracted to Kelsey’s message, some people want a more hardcore message. And that’s great. Our thing within fitness is, if someone is with us, that’s awesome. But if we can direct someone somewhere else, that’s also great, because as long as we’re helping people get, you know, moving and exercising more and eating better, like, that’s what that’s the ultimate goal, that’s always been our goal, whether that’s with us or with someone else. And that’s why we love you know, the the collaborations that we do and doing things like this, where it’s like, if someone sees us on here, and then is a bigger follower of you or someone else that we mentioned on this, that’s awesome. Like, the whole goal is to get people moving to get them eating, right. And that’s, you know, been in our message the entire time. And so it’s really crafting like, and being yourself, like being yourself, it took us a while to figure out our voice and to really start putting our authentic voice out there. Because like people are scared to do that. They they kind of go like, Oh, keto is hot. So I’m just gonna sell a Keto program, even though I’m not keto. Like, don’t do that, like just do what you’re passionate about. And then people will be attracted to that.


Brett Bartholomew  12:16  

Yeah, it’s interesting. And Dennis, I have a lot I’m going to pepper you with along the way, especially around copywriting. Because we’re teaching a member of our staff a new member about copyrighting it, it’s certainly something I’ve had to learn more about the last few years, and you seem to be prodigious at it. So I’m not going to forget that. But let’s talk about some of the things that you mentioned. Within that you mentioned, knowing yourself resonating with a message, right, and these things, you’re right, they are hard. And, you know, it is fascinating to watch how other industries navigate this, right, that’s, there’s always so many commonalities. 


You know, Kelsey, you have an interesting story, one that I certainly relate to, it took me 16 years to talk about it. But you know, you had issues as I know, you’re a former competitive athlete, and from the looks of everything you do, you’re obviously still super athletic. But there’s been issues and a story of, of body image and kind of your type a persona, getting the best of you, when it came to diet, nutrition and healthy relationships with exercise a little bit, you know, do you mind going into that with some of our listeners, and specifically, how that then shaped your voice and the way that you craft your message now?


Kelsey Heenan  13:19  

For sure. And I also did not want to talk about it for quite some time. Because part of it was, you know, working through feelings of shame. You know, just like was that really me that that happened to and also I kind of just wanted to move on and have that not be a part of my identity. But after a while, I really realized that. It’s not about you know, reliving that in those types of things, it’s about helping other people who are in the same spot and be able to relate and help them move through it. 


But anyway, so in college, I developed an eating disorder. So I really just wanted to become better at my sport. I was a collegiate basketball player. That’s where I met Dennis. And so I when I was a freshman, I moved across the country, I moved from Minnesota to California, all these things were new, brand new life on my own for the first time and I wanted to be competitive, and I wanted to play more. So in my head, I was like, Okay, well, I need to, you know, eat healthier, I need to start training more to be better at my sport. So I started doing these things kind of putting in these arbitrary rules. While these arbitrary rules that I put into place, eventually snowballed and spiraled into compulsions that I was not able to control. Things went downhill really quickly. And I lost a ton of weight in a very short amount of time. I have always been, you know, a taller, leaner person, and I did not have weight to lose. And so it was a very scary thing. I went to the doctor and the doctor said, If I were to go for a brisk walk, I could go into cardiac arrest like just you know, very similar type of experience that you had and when I heard YOUR Story like, I’m not alone. You know, it’s interesting when you’re in your own head going through those types of things. it’s weird because I had always been able to trust myself, I was always a very responsible driven discipline person. And so to go through something like that, I didn’t understand like how that could have turned into something wrong. So through that I got diagnosed, I went into treatment, Dennis was a huge piece of me being able to move through the recovery period, and then overcome all of those things. So after that, I eventually was able to just move through it and be able to live my life without any sort of disordered eating patterns, behaviors, compulsions, and I definitely waited a couple of years before I moved into the fitness space, because I was like, I just want to be a healthy, happy human and not even have to think about those things. but after a while, I mean, I just love fitness, I love athletics, I love all those things. And Dennis and I would work out together, we’d eat all of our foods together. And we had this dream to be able to help people together. So that’s when we created our business.


Brett Bartholomew  16:16  

Well, and Dennis within that, and I don’t mean to interject, but you know, there’s a lot of people that had to be hard for you to be like, how do I handle this? And I know just from some of the research I’ve done and getting to know you guys, I know it’s a pair of social relationship, because you’re like, oh, I don’t know what this guy’s researching on us. But I remember, you know, just saying like, didn’t you call her mother? Or was there something where it’s like, you realize there was a problem? Like, What went through your head? Because there are going to be people listening. I mean, listen, we have somebody in our network that is an executive of a company that turns out millions per year, and you’d never know it by looking at this guy. He looks like a linebacker, what have you. And he had these issues, and he’s not in fitness. And he’s not these things. So like, if there’s somebody out there that’s hearing this, or they think their partner has some kind of unhealthy relationship with whatever, whether it’s food or drugs, or what have you. Like, how did you internalize that at first? Did you recognize it?


Dennis Heenan  17:09  

Yeah. So I mean, I recognize the like, certain patterns that were starting to happen. You know, being in college, like she started skipping going to the cafeteria, she started, like avoiding basically like when we’d make food together, or something at my parents house, or whatever, she kind of I’ve noticed you’d like avoid carbs, like like little things. And then and then like, bigger things started happening. And the one story always tell us like on Fourth of July, we ordered a pizza and she just like broke down crying like, couldn’t


Kelsey Heenan  17:33  

I lost it 


Dennis Heenan  17:33  

Yeah, like lost her mind. And so, as these things started happening, I had no idea of what you know, an eating disorder even was or what anorexia was or what any of these things were, but it kind of got to this point where, like, she had lost a lot of weight. And I was noticing it and like the rules, and the restrictions were just like, getting more and more. And so I basically kind of told her, I was like, Look, you need to call your mom, because, like, she needs to know what’s going on. And if you don’t call her I will. And being someone who I mean, we were engaged at the time, like that’s a very difficult conversation to have with someone that you love, because it’s kind of like, I almost felt like I was going behind her back in a way or making a threat. But I also knew that things were not good. And so basically, she’s like all call her I don’t want you to call my mom. And so I was still there for the conversation to make sure that what needed to be said was said, because I didn’t know that she needed to go and get checked by a doctor or whatever. And then her mom ended up flying out the next day her mom, you know, our parents played a obviously a huge 


Kelsey Heenan  18:33  



Dennis Heenan  18:34  

yeah, massive role in this as well. But you know, the difficult conversations, if you know, someone that is going through this, just know that there’s going to be pushback, and you know, because in Kelsey’s mind, there was at that time, there was nothing wrong. I was the enemy. I was the one attacking her. And I needed to take that and be okay with it. But I needed to be there to support it, as well. And so, yeah, the whole process, you know, and being there for the treatment process as well was just a huge eye opening experience. I mean, not only for for Kells, but for me as well, you know, seeing Kelsey who was 20 at the time, yeah, she was 20. And also a seven or a nine year old was in there as well. And so me sitting through these meetings and not understanding the disease, but then being able to go through the research and do all this stuff. Like it really does open your eyes and, you know, going through that played a huge role and how we crafted our voice and started sharing the things that we share. So,


Brett Bartholomew  19:32  

yeah, no, that touches on a lot of key points. And you mentioned a few things that I wanted to touch on, you know, Kelsey, when you when you reacted when you saw the pizza crust or what have you and then Dennis when you talked about there was a nine year old and that you know I think it’s interesting in that and me especially being a male now that that makes it you know, there’s differences here and there but when I first started talking about this, it was shocking to people that a male especially a bearded male who was a strength coach at trains, athletes and military dealt with this but what I always tried to get across is when people have eating disorders, it’s no different than any other form of addiction or kind of issue people have. It was I mean, I imagine and I’m asking this honestly, we’ve never had this conversation for those listening. It’s not about the crust. It’s not about calories. It’s not about these things are some other aspects. They’re like, I would have to imagine, right? Like, what was that the issue? Like, really at the core of it? Or what did you find was the issue for me, for example, it was like, I needed some sense of control in my life, I had friends that turned to hardcore drugs. My parents were, you know, like, I was switching houses every night because they had joint custody, I learned that it was an outlet for a natural heightened level of anxiety, because I hadn’t found what I wanted to do yet. So you pour it into something that feels cathartic, which is exercise. And I was searching for some kind of like routine in my life. What was it for you really looking back at that now?


Kelsey Heenan  20:52  

It’s so hard, because I don’t know if there was necessarily like, one thing for me, it was kind of this perfect storm of all of these things that combined into this horrible monster. Like, I do think perfectionism was a piece of it, you know, wanting to just, like, be perfect in every single sense of the word. performing better was like, what I feel was like, one of the big things that I was like, okay, that’s what I want to do, because I was, like, competitive and wanted to do a good job. And then I think there’s also you know, this certain piece where, like, you kind of get to this point where your, your brain just isn’t working.


Brett Bartholomew  21:32  

It’s autopilot. That’s how I describe it to people. It was anger or autopilot for me, like, it’s very hard to explain what you’re going through, because people would be like, well, then you recognize you were getting thinner, you know, because when I went through, like 130 pounds, where I was normally at that age to like, 90, it’s like, no, because that like wasn’t the goal. And you just have these things in your own head that cloud you. So your experience was similar, you would say?


Kelsey Heenan  21:55  

Absolutely it. The rules don’t make sense. They Yeah, it’s really fascinating.


Dennis Heenan  22:02  

Yeah. And I mean, I noticed that too. I mean, there was several conversations, and autopilot is a great word to describe it. It kind of hits a certain point, where it’s like, I haven’t started questioning, like, do you even want to hang out with me anymore? Like, I know, we’re engaged, but because it was just so almost autopilot? The majority of the time and so yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, hurt in her head was different. But even from the outside and being so close to her, I noticed that as well. 


Kelsey Heenan  22:30  

like I Yeah, it was kind of scary, because I didn’t understand why I was feeling that way and reacting that way. I’m a very, like, I’m very easy to get along with for the most part, you know, I’m very go with the flow. But I was having these like intense feelings of like, like anxiety to the point where it’s like, I can’t participate in it, because the only thing that matters are these disordered thoughts.


Dennis Heenan  22:53  

And there were glimpses though, to which you probably had to have glimpses of, like, when she would catch yourself like, I don’t know what’s going on, like, something is wrong. Like there were those glimpses. And that’s when I had to really like React. Because most of the time it was like, No, I’m not, nothing’s wrong. But there was like those moments, like two to three seconds, even of just like, I don’t know why I’m super anxious. I something’s off like, and so it’s, yeah, it’s an interesting experience, but learned a lot from it.


Brett Bartholomew  23:24  

Yeah, I mean, and we go into this, because now you have this tool, and social media and everything that you do, to help kind of get inside the minds and hearts of others, because you’ve got to figure out what makes people tick. Right. And I found that going through that, and especially my time being hospitalized, you know, I learned so much about watching people and power dynamics and kind of listening to what people when we would go through these group, quote unquote, therapy sessions, I’d hear what people would say around the staff, how they’d explain their problems, how they internalize it, and then I’d hear what they said, when the staff left, right. So is this masterclass of, you know, kind of seeing how people behave and how they make sense of their own reality and how they internalize. And, you know, I always kind of say it, and I’m not glorifying it, I kind of had to learn to play dirty to get out of out of my experience, where, because I had a little bit of a different story. When I was in the hospital, I was often told, Well, you’re in denial, and you’re not falling in line, because I didn’t fit their system. So eventually, what I found out is like, all right, I think I need to lie to these people. Because I would get told I was non compliant. Right. And so this fed a lot of anger even when I was trying to get treatment. And so what I noticed is once I started, like, just kind of telling them what they wanted to hear and fitting this mold, well, now all of a sudden, I got some restrictions lifted. You know, I could leave this day room a little bit, I could now go exercise and their version of that was you go into a room and sit on a stability ball and do ankle weights because you can’t burn any real calories. 


But it’s it was just an interesting glimpse into human nature. That also gives you a glimpse into the business world in the room. realities is you’ve got to find a way to take a message and show different variations of that person. Now, it’s always anchored by correct values, right? Like, it’s not about giving anybody a deceitful message or what have you. But it’s saying, Okay, this isn’t connecting with this person, I’ve got to tell them some other version of this. So it resonates because we make the mistake of thinking the messages we send that others receive. And Dennis, that’s where I want to learn a little bit more about your story and your role too. Because you’re, I mean, you handle copywriting and email marketing. And these things I’ve learned after just being a strength coach for 15 years, but going into my own business, the last six doing so many other things, I’ve had to learn these skills. It’s crazy. So talk to me about a little bit of how your observance of Keylsey’s story, your own background, and all these things have led to you honing this skill a little bit, if you don’t mind.


Dennis Heenan  25:51  

Yeah, so I mean, I got I was always into sports growing up and fitness, I really got into, you know, weight training and working out in college, had, you know, my own transformation, I was like, 6’6 165 going into college. So just a really like thin person and then gained like 30 pounds of muscle in one summer, just working with a strength coach, you know how that goes with beginning beginner lifters, you can add on pack on quite a bit of size. So absolutely, after seeing that happen, I and seeing like the competence that gave me and just like how good I felt and how much stronger I was like on the basketball court. That’s when I really started getting into like fitness side. And so post college, I got into personal training, and but also started dabbling with like online stuff. And in the beginning, it was all just like, Okay, how can I create, you know, the best programs for people. And so I knew the programs I was creating were awesome, but they weren’t selling. And so I knew that the marketing piece, the messaging that I was putting out there wasn’t working wasn’t resonating. And so that was the piece that I wanted to focus on. And that I thought was fun. It was kind of like a game in a way, like how can I put a program out there and have it resonate with people to get them to purchase the awesome workouts that I’m putting together. And that’s when, you know, we really started crafting our voice. And I always had to be careful with with the things that I said just because of what Kelsey went through. And you know, how I didn’t want her to read, you know, a sales page of mine and be like, I don’t know about, you know, know about that. 


That being said, there, we kind of have this thing like you want it you sell people what they think they want, and then you give them what they actually need. And so a lot of times people think like, oh, I need to I want to lose 20 pounds in 20 days. And it’s like, Okay, that’s great. But that’s not what you really want to do. And it’s not what you need, here’s an actual plan that’s going to Yes, help you lose the that weight, but actually do it in a way that’s enjoyable and sustainable. And so that’s kind of always been our approach to marketing is, you know, a lot of the program names that we put together, it’s like, yeah, it’s called 21 Day rapid fat loss. But this program is a program that you can follow for ever, because it’s sustainable. And so I think that’s a lot of times the, when it comes to marketing, it’s make sure your programs are awesome, number one, and make sure that they’re going to get people results. And if you’re a great coach, that’s going to happen. And then when when it comes to the marketing piece, you just have to figure out your messaging and see what’s going to resonate, I can’t tell you how many times we’ve changed the name of a program or completely scrapped the sales copy and just rewrote it from the from scratch. A lot of times people put the program out there, it doesn’t sell and they’re like, well, the program is terrible. It’s like no, the program wasn’t bad. It was how you got people into it that wasn’t resonating or things like that. And so a lot of it just came down to, you know, asking our customers what they wanted, what they needed. And figuring out, you know, who you’re talking to, like when we when we got started, I was the face of the brand. And when Kelsey got brought in, we slowly transitioned her as the face of the brand. And we noticed the shift in our audience started going more towards women. And so a lot of the sales copy that I started writing was instead of being you know, both to male, female, it’s more towards the female side now, because that’s the majority of our audience. And so it’s really understanding like, who am I speaking to? And if you’re writing a fat loss program, don’t speak to someone as if you’re trying to help them gain 10 pounds of muscle you have to know which how you’re kind of speaking to that specific person.


Brett Bartholomew  29:17  

Yeah, and there’s so many great lessons of that throughout history of any business, right, we talked about one example on a prior podcast is when Microsoft came out with the Zune Zune was this beautiful, really well laid out product, but it didn’t have iTunes with it, right? Whereas the iPod had iTunes, so that was convenient. There was this ecosystem of understanding there that made it easy for people to join. And that’s why again, I’ve always found it fascinating and a lot of it was previous wars with myself is you know, coming up in streaming conditioning, I talked about it a lot on this show. you were a sellout have even got on social media. And now we’re seeing this huge shift because of the pandemic where strength coaches are realizing like, Hey, maybe I can’t be quite a purist anymore, because you have coaches that are saying Well, I can’t keep my athletes, and it doesn’t matter if they’re coaching pro athletes, or what have you engaged, you know, from afar, and it’s like, well, listen, like, you’re gonna have to give a different version than you would give there. But it’s so hard for people, because they don’t understand this balance of give and take, like you said, know your audience. And understand that, of course, you have to write great programs. And just like any company has got to create a remarkable product. But that’s not enough, you know, and you’ve got it. And I started looking at my own lens through my own dogma all these years ago and saying, Okay, I’ve checked a lot of these boxes. But if it still doesn’t incorporate some aspect of what the athlete wants, they’re not going to be able to do that. And I think a lot of people don’t get out of their own way with that. I’m sure you guys know people that have a lot of knowledge, but they can’t. And I be interested in your take on this. So give me a second to figure out how to formulate this question. Do you find that some people who present themselves as purists, well, I’m not going to do that I’m not going to start an online business, I’m not going to do social media, kind of really use that mainly, it’s a shield for insecurity. And they as opposed to just like them saying, Well, you know, no, it’s a sellout thing. It’s immoral, we shouldn’t do. Do you know, anybody like that? Because we I know, our field struggles with that. I think there’s a lot that do. But I’d be interested in your take on that. how some people just kind of use that as a shield to like not do the things they need to do meet people in the middle.


Dennis Heenan  31:27  

Yeah, I think that I mean, it’s hard to put yourself out there, especially on social media, you’re always going to get hate no matter what, no matter what you do. I mean, we get hate comments on how Kelsey looks every single day. Like your arms are too manly. You don’t have boobs, like really? Like, oh, yeah, every day. Well, I


Brett Bartholomew  31:42  

guess that’s what happens when you have like, half a million followers. I mean, it’s rule of law numbers, you’re bound to have some clowns, for sure.


Dennis Heenan  31:47  

Yeah, you’re so you’re going to get hate and, and so it’s hard to put yourself out there. But the thing is, in this day and age that we live in, like it’s important to do so. And it’s important, if you want to get your message out, social media is one of the best and easiest ways to do it.


Kelsey Heenan  32:02  

And you don’t have to do tick tock dances to be relevant. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, if that’s your thing, and that’s your personality, that’s amazing. But for you know, maybe some of those coaches who are like social media is selling out, it’s like, well, no, but your your message could reach so many more people, you could have, you know, you can be successful and also stay true to who you are and put out great stuff.


Dennis Heenan  32:24  

I think one thing I’ll say when it comes to, you know, the marketing piece, and going back to what we were talking about, like the great programming, you have to remember when you’re online, you’re competing against a lot of people. And a lot of those people have no clue, especially, you know, being in the fitness space, like I purchased a lot of programs just to go through the funnels to see what they’re doing. But I also look at the programs and the programs, oftentimes, especially from the people that are, you know, the top selling them, they’re not very good. Or if you a top selling supplement, a lot of supplement brands, horrible ingredients, like I know exactly where they got the supplement, they’re getting it for 99 cents, you know, wholesale, and they’re selling it for 67. You know, so you’re competing against brilliant, brilliant marketers. And so I remember having a conversation with a buddy of mine, who is a very, very good copywriter, and he’s like, look, I’m going against companies that are spending 10s of millions of dollars, like there’s certain things that I have to say if I want to try to compete with them. And so when you’re selling your program, you have to be okay, putting out some you know, some information that you want your clients to hear and that you’re confident your program will get those results obviously don’t want to make like these claims of like, oh, you’re gonna lose 20 pounds in 21 days, don’t make those claims. But like, don’t be afraid to also sell how great your program is, and the benefits that your clients and your prospects are going to be getting from purchasing that. 


Going back to social media, I think the biggest thing that we’ve learned is having a specific marketing message for every single month for Instagram, for example, like if you look at our hip rampage, we post exercise ideas and workouts, hit exercise ideas and workouts, that’s what we do. Whereas daily, Kelsey is more in depth. It’s more personal. That’s kind of just what resonated with the audience. We realized that with hiit burn, people want those new exercise ideas, workout ideas, and things like that. Whereas like with Kelsey, it’s her personal brand. It’s what she does on a day to day basis. She shares things that are encouraging, and things like that. So there’s different ways that you can get people to, you know, buy in, by doing things very differently.


Brett Bartholomew  34:28  

Yeah, it’s a form of segmentation, really, right. And sometimes it finds you. It’s, interesting, because you’ve talked about how you were the face of the company at once, and then it became Kelsey, and then you talked about the nuance of Hiit Burn and the daily Kelsey, we found that as well. I mean, when I was just a strength coach, people sought me out to talk about programming and agility and all these things. And then we got into the communication side, we serve just coaches and then all of a sudden, when the book and some other things took off, we started noticing, okay, when we segmented our audience, which was a term I really didn’t know, two or three years ago, right? I don’t have a counterpart, helping me with a lot of this or mentoring, I’ve had to pick it up as I go. And we started realizing wow, like people either come to me to deal with like interpersonal issues, whether that’s somebody at work or you know, trying to become a better speaker or what have you. But then there’s also people that has started coming to us for branding. And I thought that was interesting, because I’m like, well, our main product, his communication, which we always viewed is as scalable as water or air. But then what I realized is like, why are people reaching out for marketing? Like, hey, how do I clarify my message and my voice? And I’m, like, well duh. That’s a byproduct of how we communicate. And so then we started realizing, okay, now, when we send out emails, we’ve got to be conscious of how many people want, A, how to build a brand ethically, standing out without selling out. And then who wants mainly Hey, how do I get these people to buy? And how do I deal with this stodgy person I work with and what have you. 


I think for some, though, it’s so when you started off with just copywriting, and you use a term funnels, let’s rewind, because there’s gonna be some of our audience that don’t know what these things mean. And again, I don’t think that’s uncommon. So I hope anybody listening doesn’t feel overwhelmed. But even in a field where so much writing that I did early on how to be scientific, everything is cited everything. Is this, that science based writing or what have you, in your words? How would you explain to people how copywriting differs from that, 


Hey, guys, just a quick break. One thing, hopefully, that’s coming through here is no matter how good you are at what you do, and no matter how hard you work, no matter how much you want to help others, none of it will make an impact, or at least the impact you’d like it to make if you don’t know how to reach your audience. And that’s just simply the truth. I know that isn’t something that’s comfortable. But we have to take a leap and give ourselves permission to be able to find our voice and build our own platforms. Now, whatever way that manifests in your life, if this is something that you’re interested in doing, and you feel like, you’ve asked yourself, Am I on the right path? Am I making as big of a difference as I could? Am I doing something that really fits with my values, but you don’t really have a framework to follow to do that, or you’re looking for outside advice. We have that now. And it is my new Digital Workshop Blindspot. It’s something I’ve worked on for over 18 months. And it is something that can really give you a toolkit and a framework to be able to stand out while not selling out and do these things in the right way, especially one that’s sustainable. So if this describes you, and again, you’re somebody that wants to make an impact, but you’ve always kind of just gone back and forth, because you’re not sure how it would be perceived. Or maybe you’re a perfectionist, and it makes you a little bit nervous, which is understandable. Trust us, we have your back, go to Again, that’s, I promise you won’t be disappointed. All right back to Dennis and Kelsey. 


How would you explain to people how copywriting differs from that.


Dennis Heenan  37:58  

copywriting is pulling people into your message, and essentially convincing them to buy your product and selling them. I mean, yeah, convincing them and selling them to buy your product and getting them to read the the first headline that they see, and then want to continue on to the very first sentence that you wrote, and then want to continue on and continue on and continue on. I mean, you you’ve come across some sales pages that are 5000 words, I’m sure you’ve come across the VSL is that or 60 minutes, and you’re sitting there like how do people sit through this whole thing and listen to all 60 minutes? And it’s like, yes, they do. And what happens, the longer they listen, the more convinced they’re getting to purchase the product at the end. I mean, the research shows the longer someone spends on a sales page reading it, the more likelihood that they’re going to buy that product. 


In terms of funnel that I mean, people can really think of it as, think about someone who’s never seen your stuff before. We call that a you know, cold lead. They see your stuff for the first time. They’re semi warm now and it’s in the funnel ideas, how do you get that person who’s never seen your stuff to then purchase a product and get into your world. And so there’s several ways that you can do that, you know, you have people who can sign up via email, who are now on your email list, follow you on Instagram, purchase a product, which is you know, the ideal thing. But there’s a lot of ways to bring people into your world. And the funnel really starts with putting that very first message out in front of them. And so when for Hiit Burn and for example, when you know someone sees a swipe workout of ours for the very first time and it resonates with them, they hit the Follow button, boom, now they’re in our world now we can get back in front of them with an ad or maybe they click the link in our profile or click the link in our story and go buy a product or maybe opt in to a free list or whatever that is. It’s really you know, the copywriting piece is not just like writing sales pages or anything like that. It’s really the content that you’re putting out there and how you can attract those people.


Brett Bartholomew  39:57  

Yeah, and I’ll go


Kelsey Heenan  39:58  

back to sorry, I’ll jump in it’s more than just like, you were talking about, like research writing, it’s so much more than just like saying, Here’s my knowledge, and I’m giving you facts, it’s more like, let’s bring in the mental emotional side, tell a story and draw you into our world to be able to communicate with you in that way. So it’s a little bit more of a softer thing to be able to get the point across in that way, rather than just like a transfer of knowledge.


Brett Bartholomew  40:24  

And I’m glad you said that, Kelsey, because you both made some good points. I know what kept me away from this stuff for a long time. Let’s look at blogging, for example, because this goes into something else I want to ask you guys, down the path of this is finding the medium that’s right for you, right. But I remember, like, I have a strong disdain for blogging, just writing in general, and part of it is a very dumb reason. One is I hate being stationary. And writing takes time. When I wrote conscious coaching like that was, I tend to let things build up. And then when I have a lot on go, but other than that, I don’t want to sit down every day and write just because I’m very kinetic person. I think the other thing is for me, it’s not for me, it’s not always the most context rich medium. For example, if somebody writes me an email and says, somebody did this the other day, hey, how would I build buy in with this individual? Well, I could send them an audio note. And this is something I often do, I’ll record an audio note on my phone and attach the reply on the email, because there’s warmth that can be connotated. There, there’s more context. And in a voice message, that’s two minutes I could get more across, then what otherwise might be a four paragraph, you know, email or what have you. But when I finally figured out, I think the other piece was I felt like if I did write, I had to cite everything. So even if I said, communication is a critical part of relationship development, or you guys said, Hey, high intensity training has tremendous effects on one’s metabolism. My core audience at the time would expect 38 citations, so that drove me away from it because it’s time consuming, you know, and there’s a place for it in my presentations, it would be there and my former work, it’s there. When I found out that copywriting was more like you said, Kelsey, it’s conversational, it’s fluid. It’s a little bit more loose, not unethical, not unsubstantiated, but loose. When I read the USA today from the app, that’s a form of copywriting. When you read somebody’s caption on social media, that’s a form of copywriting. It’s this conversational flow. Am I hearing you correctly? Am I interpreting that correctly? Or would you say no, Brett? Not at all?


Dennis Heenan  42:28  

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, if you look at, the best converting sales pages and VSL video sales letters that are out there, they are all based around story. They’ll sprinkle in facts, or you know, facts. It depends on how sketchy or whatever the people are pulling. But they are very story based things and they pull you in with normally a pretty dramatic story is kind of what they do. But it is very conversational. When it comes to that stuff, and yes, the more you can cite, like your sources, like if there’s a study that you want to cite, make sure you cite that and don’t like over, you know, over promise, anything like that. But it is very conversational. 


But going back to the medium, like you were saying, there are so many different mediums like you look at sales, some people’s sales pages that convert really well and you’re like, how on earth this is like 300 words, like how does this do it, but then you go to their YouTube channel, and they have a ton of YouTube videos that are, you know, providing great content, great information, and then are literally like, Hey, if you want my full workout program, it’s right there. It’s like , they didn’t need to put together a super long sales page, because they already did all the selling within that YouTube video, or within their 50 other YouTube videos. And a lot of times even, you know, on Instagram, there’s one, there’s a person named Sonata greca, who kind of blew up in last year, and she posts every day just you know, unique exercises and things like that. She does an amazing job. And her story is selling her community and how awesome people are doing. And so she’s basically copywriting in her stories, just selling results, that sort of thing results. And she encourages people to go and crush her workouts like so she does a very good job with that the sales page is just very basic. It’s like, Hey, by the by the program, it’s either buy it or don’t. But she does very well. And so there’s different ways that you can sell but it’s like you were saying, find the medium that you enjoy, and stick with it and figure out how to sell to your audience through it.


Brett Bartholomew  44:22  

And what does that for you guys? What mediums have you found are really your big sticking points. You know, for example, I know, mine, I’ve learned over time like Instagram just based on how I created my, or what I did prior I’ve so much of my core audience, which I appreciate all of them. But they came to expect strength coach Brett all the time, right? So I noticed that even today. You know, if I put out training content, I know exactly what it’s going to do. But that’s not the future or the current state of our brand. Do I still do those things? Sure. But the core of our brand is leadership and psychology and communication. When I put that stuff out, it goes a little flat and my growth isn’t gonna be that big, but we had to learn and do not accept that. But like we understand the realities of it. Because on the other hand, the podcast where we do talk about these things blows up. And I love the podcast because I get to talk to folks like you, we get to learn. But communication also wouldn’t be a very interesting thing to do on YouTube. So we have a little bit on YouTube, but that’s never going to be our bread and butter. Where did you guys fail? Where did you gravitate to? Where did you notice your audience likes? Not likes you best, but you get what I mean, resonates with your message. Talk to me about that journey a bit.


Kelsey Heenan  45:30  

Yeah, so we’ve, you know, tried a few different things. We’ve dabbled in a lot of areas. And I think that that’s something important in, the online world is there are so many options that it can feel overwhelming, to not only options for, like, what mediums to use, but also how to use them. So it can feel a little bit, overwhelming at times. But the ones that we’ve really stuck to our Facebook and Instagram, we do some YouTube stuff, but Facebook and Instagram are definitely our main two ones. 


Dennis Heenan  46:00  

Yeah, we started growing our, our Facebook first. And so we kind of got some traction there. And then we got onto Instagram. And ultimately, we kind of see each one as something different with the ultimate goal of either getting someone on our email list, because we sent emails every single day, that’s one of the main forms of communication that we use. And so a lot of the ads that we run, the goal is to get people onto our email list. So they can go through, you know, a seven day follow up sequence or get on our email broadcast list where we email them each day with, you know, very specific tips or techniques or offers based on their goals and where they’re at. And so, with Instagram, our goal is to basically bring new people into the world and then have them you know, watch our stories, swipe up, join an email list or purchase a product, things like that Facebook, we just posted a ton of content, Facebook goes back and forth. It’s, you know, back in the day, you could reach tons of people with your posts. Now it’s all over the place. But you have to roll with the times too. So yeah, that’s kind of how we do it. Our ultimate goal because of how we do things is get people onto our email list. And that’s our main thing,


Brett Bartholomew  47:13  

which is counterintuitive for some too again, if you were to talk to a naive me a few years ago, since I hate email, I was like nobody wants to hear from me. And now we realize that people on our lists are our most dedicated that the podcast listeners, aside from people that are actually in our services, right? Our paid services, the podcast listeners, and people on our newsletter, are definitely our most hardcore folks. And have you found that with your newsletter or your email list as well? Yeah,


Dennis Heenan  47:37  

definitely, our email list is number one revenue driver for us. And like I said, like, a lot of times when when we tell people that we’d send an email every single day, they’re like, you send emails every day. And we’re like, yeah, we do. And we also sell in our emails every day, because there’s a simple way to do it. And you have to remember, people are on your email list for a reason. Yes, some people might be on there for, you know, the free workouts that you send, or whatever that is. But you also know, that they’re there, because they want to improve their life in some way, shape, or form. So we have programs that can do that you have programs that can do that. So don’t be afraid to sell those people on those programs. And it can be as simple as like, Hey, here’s a workout from our YouTube channel. But also, if you want the full workout plan that I just said, here’s the program.


Kelsey Heenan  48:23  

Yeah, it doesn’t have to be a hard sell every single day. Yeah, they were ups or something.


Brett Bartholomew  48:28  

And it’s always interesting how people react to that, too. I remember one time posting something and somebody said, I’m like, Hey, for more information, swipe up and somebody goes, well, you’re just trying to get us to buy your product. And I go, Well, yeah, but the products helpful, you know what I mean? Do you do you demonize Energizer because you see a convert, you might need batteries someday. So it’s very interesting to see. But it is the fitness industry in this framing, and there’s many other industries where like, I think people’s first experiences with these things when selling really wasn’t done, right, that has really colored their whole experience. 


And Kelsey, you know, it’s funny fact, check me on this either of you. When people hear funnel right like that can be such a odd term too. But like I look at how you and I have grown our friendship as a funnel, right? We got an intro from a friend right like that get that’s the very entrance of that funnel. That started with a phone call. We got to know one another better. You know, if we were in the same city, I would imagine we would have met for coffee or something like that. And then you know, now you’re on the podcast and what have you. We see different stages of relationship building. And that is what I hope people when they hear you talk about it, they understand that a funnel isn’t a devious thing. It’s a relationship. It’s a journey. It’s navigating the story with your favorite character. It’s not just hey, to get to our highest price thing. Am I correct in asserting this?


Kelsey Heenan  49:44  

You’re building a relationship with these people like you’re providing a service for them? I mean, people like in the actual gyms they’re not mad when people come in and you sell them in person. It’s it’s a very similar type of thing. You’re just building a relationship with them, but you’re doing it in a virtual way. Like what a gift it is that we live in a day and age where we can reach people all over the world, I work with a woman who lives in Kuwait, there’s no way that I would have been able to meet in a wall. If it hadn’t been for the Internet and doing online business. You never know whose lives you can impact and how they can enrich your life as well. If you don’t put yourself out there, if you believe that you’re selling out, it’s like, no, this what an incredible opportunity, we have to have these tools, and you can still be yourself. And it’s essential that you be yourself. Yeah, you know,


Brett Bartholomew  50:30  

that’s the biggest thing.


Kelsey Heenan  50:32  



Dennis Heenan  50:32  

And I think when, going back, like, you need to be confident in your products and services, like we used to do a lot of affiliate marketing. That’s how we got started. And there’s nothing wrong with affiliate marketing. However, what I started realizing was, you know, we would sell an app program, and then we’d have people emailing in like, two days later telling us that they bought someone else’s program. And I was like, Wait, Why would you do that?  And it’s mainly, you know, a lot of in the fitness industry, people always want that next best thing. So they bought mine, and then someone else had a better marketing message, and they bought theirs as well. And so when I started getting contacted by affiliates, like, Hey, will you, promote my ad program? I was like, why would I do that I have my own that’s, I think is better, you know, so it’s having the confidence to go out and actually sell the product. And like you were saying, like, when we get people complaining, like, Oh, you’re just trying to get me to buy the product? It’s like, well, no, we have like, 300 videos on YouTube that you can do for free. Yeah, we’re like 2000 posts on Instagram that you can do for free. So it’s no, like, there’s other places you we can send you, well, we’re just building the relationship. And like you’re saying, the funnel is shaped like this, they’re up at the top, you’re just trying to push them down more and more into your world. And the more you do that, the better relationship is going to be?


Brett Bartholomew  51:40  

Yeah, that’s well said. I think one of the other excuses we hear a lot and I know I’ve made them in the past is, and it goes back to what you mentioned about confidence. And being yourself is sometimes people and you guys do such a great job and it fits you. You guys have high quality video, you have graphics that’ll pop in, right, there’s all kinds of people that have very nuanced kind of presentation. But it also doesn’t have to be that, I know, my DMs are always filled with some, these people that spam you and they’re like, Hey, your program could be getting more engagement. And I’ve had people say, hey, why don’t you do a video that, you break down communication? Or how to train all these archetypes or what have you. And I just said, listen, that’s not the core of my business on social media, One. Two, I don’t have access to a camera person or a creative team that can do these things. And three, you know, it’s like, that is a route we could go. But I think people they also need to know, just do what fits with your lifestyle and is consistent for me, I get a pretty good response relative to my audience, even though the metrics are low, especially compared to folks like you, where if I just turn on my iPhone, and I rant on something real quick my audience appreciates that and that takes no graphics, no, nothing, no, what have you. But my question to you is, you know, for the person that feels like, hey, well, I feel like I have good information. But trying to put it out there in this way that is visually engaging is beyond me, or frightening, or they don’t feel like they have a camera or the assets are the kind of people is that necessary? I know, it can help, but what else could they do? If they don’t have that? Or that’s not their style? Do you think that can really engage people? That question makes sense?


Kelsey Heenan  53:12  

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it’s interesting, because, you know, we’ve tried a bunch of different things along the way. And sometimes the  most engaging or, if it’s an ad best converting, things are when I flip on the camera, my hair is bananas, and I have no makeup on. it costs $0 to produce this, but it works really well. You know, and then on the other hand, like we do have some more highly produced things. But we found a lot of times those types of things are great for more of like a sales page, where it’s, this is the button that program, but we also didn’t start that way. We started both of us editing all of our own videos, taking all of them photos, I mean, you know, on an iPhone, I mean, we didn’t have any, you know, super fancy tools. You know, as you start to grow and change it, you can, you know, make things pretty, but like the branding piece was never really what we focused on first we focused on the messaging and creating amazing products.


Dennis Heenan  54:11  

Yeah, and we’ve tested professionally done videos versus iPhone videos professionally done photos versus iPhone photos, on ads. And most of the time, the iPhone videos and iPhone photos convert better, people are more engaged. You know, I’ve posted videos of her before on an ad and she’s like, how did you post that? And I’m like, because it crushes it, because you’re not wearing makeup you’ve got your hair’s going crazy, you’re doing a great exercise, you have a great message. And you have to remember like, if you’re a company getting in front of somebody, and you see a photo of you know, something that your friend would post that doesn’t look like an ad that looks like a photo that their friend would post and that’s the goal is catch their attention. And so you can do that with an iPhone especially these days with how good the cameras are and and all of that it’s like you can literally get a small little ring In light and your phone, and you’re good to go. And that’s


Kelsey Heenan  55:03  

a great point too is like, you know, you don’t have to have like the highest you’re not, you don’t need to be Steven Spielberg to do this, but have awareness of the platform that you’re using, like Instagram is a visual platform. So something that is light and bright is going to be more engaging than if you’re in this dark dungeon. And people can’t see your face, you know. So just having some very simple awareness around that can make a huge difference. But it doesn’t have to be anything super fancy,


Brett Bartholomew  55:30  

very well stated. With all the information you guys put out and feel free both of you can answer one of you can’t answer. With all the information you put out all the education you do. What is the one thing that you just wish people would ask you more? Because I know from my experience, you can get the same question again. And again, it’s always well intentioned, right? Like these questions that come I’m sure there’s examples you guys have. But what is something that you just kind of look at Dennis or Dennis, you look at Kelsey, and maybe you guys are having dinner or a glass of wine one night, you’re like, I just wish people cared about blank more asked about this more, or I want an opportunity to do this more? Is there something that you just feel is burning inside you that you wish people would ask you that question that they should be asking?


Kelsey Heenan  56:12  

I have an idea. So we’ve gone through a bunch of different phases. And I think an important question that we have really experienced is, what is the life that we actually want to live? Like? What is your ideal life? And what does that actually look like? Because sometimes it’s like, well, once I reached you know, this amount of money made per year, then I’ll be great or have this amount of, people following me or whatever that is, people have these, you know, they look at all these hopes and dreams and think that like, that’s when I’m gonna be happy, that’s when I’m going to arrive. But really, like some of our happiest moments were when we were living in our friend’s basement, just starting our business. And it was just the two of us riffing back and forth, creating cool things, you know, waking up at super early hours until the evening, you know, and sometimes it’s when we, had just finished a project and we got these huge breaks, and we can just kind of be on autopilot for a while. It’s just like really identifying like, what is the business and the lifestyle that you actually want? Because more money doesn’t equal more happiness, more fame doesn’t equal more happiness more, opportunity. Yeah, more followers, none of that necessarily matters. You have to be doing things that you love with the people that you love. Not feel stressed all the time, you know, those are the things that are actually important. So that’s the question that doesn’t get asked. A lot of times, it’s just like, how did you build success? Or how did you build, social media following which are great questions, because they’re important questions to discuss. But how do you create your actual life is important? 


Dennis Heenan  57:52  

Yeah, in 2016, we went to a mastermind with a good buddy, Tyler Graham, what is his name And he asked us that question he, and he really,  was like, what is the business that’s gonna fit your lifestyle, his goal at the time, he wanted to build $100 million company. And his next comment was, I know, that means I’m not going to have very much of a life for the next couple of years. And for us, like we love to travel, we love to go out to eat, we love hanging out with friends. And we both know, we’re like, oh, that’s not what we want. That’s not the personality that we have. Like, we want more of that lifestyle business. And that’s great. And I think a lot of times, it’s like, Yeah, you look at the people that have, you know, all of these, followers and are crushing it, but you’re like, but what type of life do they have? 


Brett Bartholomew  58:36  

What cost? Right? 


Dennis Heenan  58:37  

Yeah, yeah, what costs and some people, that’s what they want. There’s some people that are listening right now that they’re like, I want to 20 $500 million company and I will do anything to get there. And that’s awesome. Like, go for it. But if you’re the type of person who you know, wants to spend more time with your family and wants to have more free time to go, skiing, or snowboarding or whatever that is, it’s like you need to build a business that’s going to support that. And then when you get to that point, you don’t have to, continue to crush it. And try to triple your business and quadruple because it’s so easy to do that. Like once we hit those goals that we set in 2016. That was one of the things that we look back and we’re like, man, we hit those goals. And then what we do, we’re like, okay, let’s, let’s keep pushing and double and keep going. And it’s like, but was that conducive to the lifestyle that we wanted to live? And so that’s the question that people should ask.


Brett Bartholomew  59:26  

I couldn’t agree more. It’s a question that my wife and I love that you guys work together. Uh, maybe a year ago, maybe a year ago, close to the day, my wife left her full time job to come work for art of coaching because the rest of our team is remote. And we asked ourselves this and it’s a big reason why like we have a mastermind called the coalition but I always tell people don’t join if you want the 10x your business bro shit. It’s just  and that’s not wrong for that person if that’s what they want, but I know I mean, I look at my habits every day and I know that there’s a certain amount of time I want to watch a show with my wife. There’s a certain amount of my day I want to be mindless. And I know that that will lend itself to me not building $100 million business and I’m okay with that. I don’t need that. It’s kind of like when somebody says, You should blog every day, Brett because it’s 13 times as SEO. And I go yo, like, I don’t want to every day and I know I could hire a VA that takes all my Instagram posts and puts it on the blog and does this but like, I like the podcast, I like conversations, like, let me do that it’s going to be consistent, and it grows. And so I love that you guys have said that? 


I guess it kind of led into the other question, and I want to be respectful of your time. What is the dynamic of YouTube working together? Like I mean, you both seem very organized and thoughtful? Are you the type that within your business? You batch stuff? And then that allows you to have free days? Do you kind of micro dose every day? For lack of a better term? Do you get an arguments? You know, what are those arguments about? Like what is, because there are people that like to step out and do something on their own and the curse of the business owners, nobody’s ever going to care about it like you do. Except maybe your spouse is now their skin in the game. So feel free to take this wherever you want. I’m just fascinated by it. I’d love to get to know you both more in that capacity.


Dennis Heenan  1:01:12  

Yeah, I mean, we’ve been working together full time since 2014. So we’ve learned a lot. And in the beginning months, it was, we had to be open with communication. And we also had to be open when it was time to work in time to stop. That was one thing that would constantly in the beginning, it would kind of, you’d finish working, and then would bleed into dinner and then bleed into right before you go into bed. And then it was like 24/7, you’re basically working. And there’s been a lot of learning experiences for us over the past couple years and figuring out like, okay, when we’re taking time off, like we’re off, if work talk does come up organically, that’s fine. But it’s not like one of these things. We’re constantly trying to work, you know, talk about. But we work together very, very well. Like, the biggest piece is just communication. And I think in the beginning, it was it was understanding. Like, there was times when if I was frustrated with something I wasn’t frustrated with her as my wife, it was with something within the business that, maybe in the beginning, she took us like, Oh, he’s attacking me, but we just communicated through that.


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:14  

Its hard


Dennis Heenan  1:02:14  

And it is yeah, it for sure is, but again, it comes back to that communication. It’s understanding and having those talks. Yeah,


Kelsey Heenan  1:02:21  

I mean, a specific example, is when I first started working with him, you know, Dennis, like we’ve said, as a copywriter, so he’s, you know, doing his thing, headphones on in the zone, and I’m, doing more behind the scenes, like customer service stuff. And like, Den, what would you say to this person in this scenario? And he’s like, huh, and he would like, take off his headphones. And, I kept interrupting his flow. And he got really mad and was like, hey, like, I need to focus here. Like I’m in the zone, trying to write these things. Like, if my headphones are on, I’m locked in, like, just wait for like, 10 minutes, and then we can talk like, perfect. That sounds great. I can wait 10 minutes. So you back to these people, you know, so just that and also just, we’re both pretty easygoing people. So that is very helpful in a lot of ways. But just making sure that if there is something bugging us, it’s like, okay, I know something’s bugging you, we got to talk about this. What is it and just really trying to dig in, like, take care of stuff. Yeah. And


Dennis Heenan  1:03:20  

I think one of the things we’ve, we’re trying to do more of even even now is taking, time off so taking weekends off and, planning three day getaways, or a seven day vacation where you don’t do anything, whatever that is, and


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:34  

playing horse, I see your basketball games. 


Dennis Heenan  1:03:36  

Yeah, of course, like doing fun things. And because it’s like that, going back to, you know, building the business that you want. that’s what we want. We would want a business that allows us to go and travel and do things and take seven days off. And, you know, not have to check email and things like that. And so, yeah, but again, I’ll just reiterate like the communication piece and understanding like it’s not a personal attack, like even when if she messes up in an ad, or something like, it’s not like, I can say that was terrible. And she knows I’m not attacking her. I was just attacking the way that she said it or whatever. 


Kelsey Heenan  1:04:08  

That’s also, time and practice. Yeah, because I am, you know, a pretty sensitive person in some ways. And so, you know, having Dennis coach me in camera stuff, where it’s like, I feel like I have the energy. He’s like, you know, that’s just you need to like, pick it up a little bit, because it doesn’t read that way. It feels a little flat. First, I was like, bro, like, get out like I’m doing this. But honestly, it is helpful now because I’m like, Okay, I feel like I’m being energetic. But if it’s not reading that way, like he’s seeing that and so he’s just making me better in that sense. And,, I give him feedback in a lot of ways too. So it’s just working through it.


Dennis Heenan  1:04:46  

Yeah. And we have a lot of things that we I mean, we joke a ton like we have a ton of fun doing the business together. And so an example is one time we were filming with our videographer Matt in Portland, and Matt like stops The video and just goes Kelsey, fix your face. Like didn’t really know like what to say. And it was just because she didn’t have the energy. That was basically what he was saying. But he didn’t communicate it. And so we all funny yeah, we always now like if she, if she doesn’t have energy, I’m just like Kelsey, fix your face. You know,


Brett Bartholomew  1:05:20  

that’s a really good example. I mean, there’s many good examples in that. I mean, I remember just the other, it’s tough to make sure it doesn’t come across as an attack, especially when working with anybody. But of course, your spouse I remember, just last week, we have a team meeting every Tuesday, right? And my wife was on and my wife is very low key, very chill, very happy person. But she can have a tendency and just like I have a tendency to sometimes be very animated and seem more intense than I may be in the moment. Because I always feel this sense of urgency, she has a tendency to kind of get, she’ll get monotone on team meetings. And sometimes they can come across as like, being defeated. And I just said, Hey, there’s been three moments now in the team meeting, when we’re meeting with our team remotely. Who some of these folks, we’ve never even got to spend like physical time around, right, based on either when they joined the company, or COVID, or what have you, I go, we need to be mindful of this, because we’re doing a lot as a company right now. And they could misinterpret your tonality, as something’s not going right in the company. And during COVID. Especially, we don’t want to give that off, because one, it’s not true. And she’s like, Oh, my God, like really, like, I didn’t even notice this. And we record all of our meetings, so she could go watch it. And she saw that she’s like, I’m just in my own head thinking of what I’m gonna say. And of course, you guys know, we’ve talked about with copywriting and delivery of anything and coaching. It’s not just what you say, it’s how you say it, in the smallest moments of our life just as much as it is the biggest moments, right? 


Dennis Heenan  1:06:50  



Brett Bartholomew  1:06:50  

Yeah, listen, I want to support the hell out of your business. So I couldn’t care less if anybody thinks I’m promoting or what have you within this, and we could go another hour, but I want you to give me every damn way people can get in touch with your stuff, buy your stuff, support your stuff. It’ll all be in the show notes, everything like that. But let it rip, what’s the most impactful way our audience can help you?


Kelsey Heenan  1:07:11  

Well, thank you, we really appreciate it. So we have two companies. So Hiit burn is our workout company for interval training. You can just find that at we have an app there. My personal brand is called The Daily Kelsey. And that’s where I talk more about the mental emotional side of relationship with food. And just focusing on strength there. So that’s just And we’re on Instagram @thedailykelsey Hiitburn and then Dennis is @denheen


Dennis Heenan  1:07:41  

Yeah, like I said in the beginning of the show, it’s all like whether you’re listening to this as someone who is wanting to get into fitness or someone who is a marketer or wants to be a copywriter or start their own business. Like I said, Whether you come to us and get your workouts or advice that I can give you or whatever that is or if we can lead you to someone else like feel free to reach out like honestly like if our hiit workouts don’t resonate with you we know plenty of people that have awesome workouts that we can steer you to. If if I can answer a question I probably know someone that I’ve been working with or can continue to or I can give you resources for you know the copywriters that I follow and that I learned from and that whose newsletters I’m on. So again this is all you know the ecosystem of helping just trying to help people in any way we can whether it comes from us from from you, Brett or comes from some other random person


Brett Bartholomew  1:08:34  

that’s both valued and appreciated. Well you know, thank you again, I know you guys have a crazy schedule on for you to take the time to do this. And Dennis, phenomenal Good to meet you literally on this show for the first time. Hopefully we’re in the same place together soon but for me and everybody had ordered coaching I just want to thank you both for your time. This is awesome, guys. Until next time is the art of coaching podcast Brett Bartholomew, signing off

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