There’s a lot of talk about best practices when it comes to coaching children. But what about adults? What does the literature say? How do we optimize coaching for a more mature population?

Today, we are joined by Tiffany Peltier, a retired 22-year veteran of the U.S. Coast Guard and current coach and adult educator. In addition to tactics and strategies to optimize adult learning, we discuss:

• Experience, Emotion and Exposure (& other challenges of coaching adults)
• How to talk to / coach “thinkers” vs. “feelers”
• Using the Experiential Learning Cycle
• Navigating jargon and power dynamics in the military  

Tiffany is also a Masters Pan-American and National Olympic Lifting record holder in both lifts and total. She’s been a personal trainer for over 18 years, and a fitness coach/adult educator for over 10 years. Having earned a plethora of certifications related to fitness, nutrition, and neurological studies, she is currently acting as a Neuro Performance specialist with Z-Health. Her Master’s research is in coaching adult athletes using adult learning principles.  

Connect with Tiffany:

Via Instagram: @fit_w_tiff

Via email: tiff.m.peltier@fitwtiff.com

As we talked about on today’s show, there’s a lot to consider when optimizing an environment for different types of learners. Click here to check out my free online presentation on the subject!

Join Our Coalition Mentoring Program here

Follow me on social media:

Via Instagram: @coach_BrettB

Via Twitter: @coach_BrettB

Subscribe to my YouTube channel here

Learn More About My Courses, Clinics, and Live Events At: www.ArtofCoaching.com

Tiffany Peltier  0:00  

There are going to be people though, however, that will want you to hold their hand the entire way. And you just have to slowly wean them off of holding their hand by allowing them to, learn by allowing them to learn from their own mistakes and not being able to gather their data on their own as to what’s right and what’s wrong. So like with an adult athlete, with pure teaching a push up, right, and they do the push up wrong, and they feel it in their shoulders where they’re not really supposed to, and they say, oh, man, I felt that wrong, great, you learn and then they fix their position, and then they feel it where they’re supposed to in this. Okay, this is what it’s supposed to look like.

 

Brett Bartholomew  0:56  

Welcome to the Art of coaching podcast, a show aimed at getting to the core of what it takes to change attitudes, behaviors and outcomes in the weight room, boardroom classroom, and everywhere in between. I’m your host, Brett Bartholomew, I’m a performance coach, keynote speaker, and the author of the book conscious coaching. But most importantly, I’m a lifelong student interested in all aspects of human behavior and communication. I want to thank you for joining me. And now let’s dive into today’s episode. 

 

Hey, excited to have you guys back for another episode. Listen, we have a lot going on at art of coaching that I want to tell you about. I promise to keep it brief, but you’re gonna hear a lot of things talked about in this episode that we have extra resources for you, and they’re free. So you’re gonna hear Tiffany and I today’s guests talk a lot about the coaching environment words we use, you know, experiential learning, what have you. I have a presentation that I gave at former and this always is a disheartening thing to hear Kobe Bryant, you know, recipes, but the former Mamba Academy, I gave a presentation on creating the optimal coaching environment. How do we coach kids? How do we address adolescence? What do we do with we’re dealing with personalities that respond to different kinds of verbiage or metaphors or analogies? How do we craft our message, depending on the context and the person, and it is yours entirely for free, and this isn’t like 999 pay for shipping, it is free. Just go to artofcoaching.com/optimal, optimal O p t, I m a l optimal artofcoaching.com/optimal. And you can learn more about this. And this can be applied anywhere. Again, I’m Yes, I started as a strength coach. But now we work with populations ranging firefighters, people in the tech sector, what have you. So all of these principles can be interchangeable with anybody you work with. Okay. Now, Tiffany, today’s guests, I want to talk to you guys about this. Tiffany as a US Coast Guard, retired 22 year veteran. So thank you for your service, Tiffany and I said that in the episode as well. And as an athlete, she was a master’s Pan American and national Olympic weightlifter, record weightlifting record holder. And she’s also been a personal trainer for over 18 years. And she’s worked specifically with adults. And that’s where she writes a lot of her research and the heart and heart of this episode is what is the difference between coaching whether in an athletic context, the fitness context, the business context, what have you, adults versus kids, you know, and how does that apply with something we call the experiential learning cycle, I shouldn’t say we call it that. There is something called the experiential learning cycle. We speak about that. And we’re going to do a separate episode on this as well, but intrigues you guys. Now, as you know, we reach out to folks from a wide variety of domains. Many have never been on a podcast before and we ask them to be raw, unfiltered. And she is just that guy. So I hope you enjoy this episode. Please, if you haven’t done so leave a review for the podcast. We rely on the reviews of people like you in the iTunes library. And just by telling friends to continue to grow. I don’t have some big empire where people are marketing this. It is all grassroots. So we appreciate your support. And I know you are going to appreciate this interview with Tiffany. All right, here we go. Hey, everybody. Thanks so much for joining me for another episode of the podcast. We have a great conversation lined up today with Tiffany Peltier a Tiffany, thanks for joining me.

 

Tiffany Peltier  4:29  

It was my pleasure. Thank you so much.

 

Brett Bartholomew  4:30  

Now, if you guys listened to the bio, you heard that Tiffany has had quite a career. She is 22 year veteran. And we’re gonna go into a little bit of that here and where we connected if she had come to one of our apprenticeship workshops, and these are workshops, if you’re a new listener, where we focus on a lot of leadership and improv and communication based principles to help people get more comfortable with chaos, so to speak. And you know, when you look at what it takes to be a better communicator, I think we can all agree and Tiffany I know You certainly want your perspective over this call, that this is something that you don’t just get better at passively, we had done something. And this is why Tiffany was such a great fit, where we put out a poll. And let’s say we got about 120 responses, at least by the time that this interview is going, and most people say that even though they know communication is important, that, you know, 68.6% said they learn how to communicate more effectively, through life or job experience, 25.6% said by observing other leaders, and then the rest kind of said online courses or live workshops. Now the issue with that is, is there’s no reflective practice. And Tiffany, I wanted to have you on the show a big reason. Because you’ve gone through forms of leadership training, you’ve gone through communication, you know, you’ve mentioned in prior discussions, a big reason you you set out to do this is because with your time in the military, there’s a lot of jargon, right. And just like medical professions can use medical ease. You wanted to get over this. So as you come into this conversation, talk to us a little bit more about your past experience with communication, training, why you got into it, and kind of, you know, what made you crazy enough to want to join a two day improv based course that really makes you deal with uncomfortable situations with a lot of strangers.

 

Tiffany Peltier  6:19  

Okay, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. yeah, so as you said, 22 years and a lot of jargon, in that, and we had had some communications training in the Coast Guard, but again, it was all jargon based. And I was finding after I retired, that I was having difficulty speaking to people. And even just, you know, basic communication, trying to figure out where they were coming from what they wanted to do, what was, you know, what was needed, especially within my coaching practice. And when I found out that there was a, your seminar, just kind of going on about how to communicate, and it wasn’t so much in the strength and conditioning field or within fitness, but in just in general, it really, I really wanted to attend it and figure out some other ways to communicate, I’d read plenty of books. You know, I went through school, my masters, and we had COMMUNICATIONS TRAINING there. But I always like to know other ways, because, you know, you can say the same thing over and over again, and try to expect a different result, but it’s not going to happen. And I found that sometimes I was doing that. So I just wanted to find some new ways to communicate, and just learn more about communication. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  7:37  

Yeah, well, I think it’s, I mean, you bring up a good point, it’s not easy to get rid of those things. You know, a doctor that we worked with kind of just mentioned that for him, it’s not unusual for a patient to feel alarmed and confused when they leave the doctor’s office, because they know they have these failures to understand, right, what the doctor was talking about. Now, with your time in the military, or even your time in the fitness or training industry. Talk to me about a time and I know I’m putting you on the spot. That’s the nature of the show. Talk to me about a time where you feel like you did something that you were clear as day, but it was obvious that there is this failure to understand on the other person’s behalf. And more importantly, when did you start realizing that was because of something you did, as opposed to you know, them not having the correct reference point or them quote unquote, not being smart enough? or what have you? When did you really notice those kinds of things?

 

Tiffany Peltier  8:25  

Okay, yeah. So, my first time I ever noticed that I, you know, I just wasn’t getting through to somebody was when I was doing Olympic lifting training with them. And I was teaching them the snatch probably one of the most complicated movements in Olympic lifting. And I had used every cue in the book, I thought that, you know, that I knew, and I had tried visual Tech, I have tried a visual cueing. I tried tactile cueing. I had tried, audio cueing everything I had tried, just wasn’t working on was not getting through to this individual. And finally, I asked him, I said, Okay, well, what are you, you know, where are you from? What are you used to what, you know, what do you do, and I kind of got a sense from him, he was in the Navy. And he was in the aviation rate. And so, where that does, where that may not make sense to some people, some of the verbs and some of the words that they use are very different and very succinct. So I tried to go back to my coastguard career, and what I had done and tried to find some different words or cueing or things that I had done when I actually flown in the helicopters, because that’s what he was with. And it just, it hit me oh my gosh, okay, I need to speak to this person more along these lines than then what I am so used to because he is from, you know, his background is so different. And I finally got through to him Then, after about 45 minutes of discussion back and forth, and it worked. And so I, you know, I sat there and my mom had always told me, just because you say things one time, doesn’t mean that people get it. And you might have to say it over and over again. And you have to, you may have to say, in different ways, with different tones with different, you know, use your hands, different expressions, stuff like that. And it finally just kind of hit me with him that, you know, A mom was right and B I do need to look more at how people listen, more so than how I communicate. Because I think that’s really important is if you understand how somebody else hears, or how somebody else listens, then you’ll be able to communicate better with them. For instance, when I talk to my clients, I like to listen to their, words as to whether or not they say think or feel. And if they say think a lot, then I know that they’re usually that’s usually means that they’re a logical person. So I use logical words with them. When a client says, I feel this, and they use a lot of feeling words, that tells me that they’re more of an emotionally based person. So I use emotional words with them.

 

Brett Bartholomew  11:18  

Example, yeah, just like just because our listeners span such a wide swath, right? And I know this may seem like such a remedial question, but it can sometimes be the curse of ignorance on our part. Give me an example of that. And if you can contrast what you were saying, and then inserting an emotional base word to use your phrasing, if you can give us an example of that. That’d be awesome.

 

Tiffany Peltier  11:41  

Yeah, so. So with my Olympic lifters, I’ll listen to them. And I’ll say so. So how do you believe you did and believe is is a it’s both sides, right? You can use that and thinking and feeling? How do you believe you did on this? Or, you know, how do you believe that, you can do better on this? And they’ll usually answer me with like, an emotional person will say, Well, I feel like I need more work on my third pool of the snatch, if you will. And I will say, okay, and because they say I feel I say, Well, what do you feel during that third pool? Do you feel like you’re, you know, do you feel like you’re not dropping fast enough? Do you feel like you’re not punching the bar in the air fast enough? What do you feel like, is missing? So that would be an emotional person emotionally based person, 

 

Brett Bartholomew  12:34  

there’s what you’re talking about, then just for our audience that isn’t, you know, familiar with the Olympic lifts. This third pole, you’re talking about getting into this overhead support position are where you catch the bar, where you get the bar into this finished position, right? The first pole is, generally depending on where you start from the ground, clearing the knees, right? The second pole is transitioning into what we call in the industry a power position, or a position where, like the hang, if you guys want to look this up, and you’re not in the field, and then that third poll is kind of the finish. Am I correct? In that just so we can orient everybody?

 

Tiffany Peltier  13:06  

Yeah, yeah. And So with that I’ll use a different example. With, so I’m also a teacher of personal training. And when I teach students all I’ll ask them, What do you believe? is the right answer here? And I’ll have one person say, Well, I think that the answer is this, this and this, based on this, this and this. And usually, their answers will be more, more logical, and more linear, in answer. So it’ll be, you know, I think the answer is this because of one, two, and three, or A, B, and C, 

 

Brett Bartholomew  13:47  

supporting examples. 

 

Tiffany Peltier  13:49  

I’m sorry, 

 

Brett Bartholomew  13:49  

they’re given supporting examples. That’s what you mean by A, B, and C.

 

Tiffany Peltier  13:53  

Yeah, supporting examples in linear order or in the order that they’re supposed to be given. Were some of my emotional students will give me the supporting examples, not in any specific order, but just give them to me in the way that they feel is more important. Right. So you’ll have your logical thinkers that say, I think, and they’ll give a, b and c where your emotional thinkers will say I feel and give maybe C A B.

 

Brett Bartholomew  14:25  

Yeah, I think I mean what where this resonates with me and you guys if you’re listening because I enjoy this stuff as well I have a presentation called Creating the optimal coaching environment and we talk about how to optimize different aspects of learning like modal strengths, right? Not just modal strengths, though, but also just transfer of learning and you know, anybody guys you can get this for free on artofcoaching.com/optimal, but you know, to me what I’m hearing and correct me if I’m wrong, is a lot of this is appealing, like is this person an analytical learner? or who typically does well with rules guidelines, you know, a lot of detail, nuances, right? This could be facts, figures, statistics, are they a global learner? Right is do they like metaphors analogies, kind of what I call talking in color? And more importantly, how do they respond to whether it’s visual, kinesthetic, auditory, or analytical based kind of cues and strategies? Is that what I’m hearing you say?

 

Tiffany Peltier  15:23  

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s right on the spot.

 

Brett Bartholomew  15:26  

And I think what I appreciated specifically about you is, you know, you looked even further and said, alright, well, it’s interesting to look at these words. And it’s interesting to look at these domains. But what about when it comes to teaching adults, because there’s so much and I have an eight month old at the time we’re recording this is almost nine months. And you think about the neurodevelopmental space and you think about all the work that we do looking at kids and youth, but a lot of times people forget how to enhance movement competency and get over roadblocks with adults. And I think just to give the audience context, especially those of you that are listening that aren’t in the field, you know, you look at some of the biggest risks of injury, surgery and even death as you get older, it’s false, right? And there’s all these other motor skill, my neighbor and she wouldn’t mind me talking about this, at least I don’t think so. I guess I better ask no, they’re pretty open people. She had to have surgery, she had a brain tumor, and she had a midline shift. So she had to go back and essentially learn and it doesn’t matter. Yeah, for the context of this, everybody just needs to know she had she had brain surgery, traumatic event and screwed up her motor skills. So we’ve had to go back to just learning basic marching, skipping, she literally can do things with one side of her body that she can’t really do with the other not from a paralysis standpoint. She has the ability, but just the the motor units and things sending the signals, right, in layman’s terms aren’t firing, and you’re talking about training and teaching adults in different ways go into a little bit of that research that you’re doing, about, you know, how do we get across to adult populations? How do we address these things? Because I think it’s fascinating.

 

Tiffany Peltier  17:02  

Okay, yeah, absolutely. So I wrote my research paper on using andragogy, which is the theory of adult learning. In coaching adults, and I specifically did my paper on coaching adults in CrossFit, because I, that’s just what’s widely available to me right now is because I’m a crossfit coach, and I had these other coaches available who are willing to do this. But the thing with adults is that I’ve found that they bring their baggage with them, 

 

Brett Bartholomew  17:37  

meaning what, 

 

Tiffany Peltier  17:38  

but yeah, so by baggage, I mean, their past experiences. So for a perfect example is I had a gentleman come in, and he’s 52. And he used to play football. So he used to do the Olympic lifts. And he used to play soccer. So he was, you know, very knowledgeable in shuttle runs, and all that other stuff. And he brought all that with him. And so when I tried to teach him, when I was teaching him the Olympic lifts and doing some stuff with him, I kind of challenged what he knew, because what he knew was in the past, remind OKC is 50 years old, right? So the way they did lifts then is a little or the way they taught lifts, then is a little bit different than the way we teach lifts. Now, not only that it was his football coach, not really a strength and conditioning coach. So there’s a huge difference there. And so knowing that I had to go back, I had to go into my, you know, what I call my rolodex of teaching and go through and think of how can I teach this guy with all of his past experiences in what he’s already learned? And that’s what I mean by baggage, you’ve got to look at how, what are their past experiences? What did they bring with them? And what are their emotions to that past experience? If they had a horrible, you know, strength and conditioning coach, who was just told them that they were, you know, a bag of poo, or told them that they would never amount to anything? That stuff sticks with those lifts? 

 

Brett Bartholomew  19:15  

Well, yeah, it’s kind of like, and I don’t mean to interrupt, but it’s kind of, you know, I think anybody listening regardless of their profession, you’re talking about a bad boss, a bad mentor, you’re talking about somebody that doesn’t guide you in a way and now nobody can hold your hand, right? We’re big on our coaching on accountability. But you’re talking about just people that they have to shake off this thing of that past relationship that could have been detrimental.

 

Tiffany Peltier  19:36  

Right? Yeah. So and kids don’t come with that. Right. Kids come with a fresh canvas, if you will, and you’re teaching them this fresh stuff. Now, they may have had a parent who gave them some, you know, some advice on how to you know if it’s soccer on how to dribble or how to write cursive or how to do something and the teacher wants to teach them a different way. But there’s not years of experience, and yours have emotional ties to that. It’s very brand new. So teaching coaching kids is so much different than coaching adults. Not only that, but adults crave accountability, absolutely crave it. And they may say, No, you They may tell, you know, all day long, but when you check up on him, you know, if you say how are you doing? You know, how’s this going, they will answer you, and they will, they crave it, they crave accountability. And most kids don’t. Most kids are just like, Alright, whatever. You know, the one thing that kids and adults do have in common though, when coaching is they want to be told that what they’re doing is good, regardless of how they may feel about it. They want to be told you’re doing a great job. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  20:47  

No I think that’s people in general, right? Like, even when we look at our, company reviews, and what have you, you know, people get, I think we all get caught up on wanting positive feedback. And rightfully so you know, you don’t want to be a good coach, and we use the coach universally a good leader, you’d be crap, if you just correct people, and you don’t give them you know, some sense of Hey, nice job with X, Y, and Z, great attention to detail with this project, especially the color and the word choice. But at the same time, we can become a little bit dependent, if we’re not careful on the coach, whereas like a coach or a leader or a manager, again, using the terms synonymously. Here, your job is to not make somebody dependent on you. So we’re like, where do we draw that line? Tiffany, of making sure they’re not dependent on feedback at the same time, and they can be autonomous, right? Learners creators facilitators themselves?

 

Tiffany Peltier  21:36  

Right? That’s a great question. So one of the things that I hit on in my research paper, this is a law of, so Bob Pike, Bob Pike is a very well known adult educator, and he goes to a lot of businesses and works with their HR department, and talks to them about teaching adults. And one of his laws is that people don’t argue with their own data. And it says if through experience, a person makes their own information, they will believe it in, they will believe it more, it is the job of the facilitator, coach or instructor or boss, to ensure the learner is guided towards the correct information. So with that being said, there’s a point at which we have to turn from coach, instructor, boss, leader mentor, we have to turn from that into facilitator where we are facilitating their learning, and we let them figure this stuff out on their own right. So adults crave independence as well, they want to, most of them want to be able to do things on their own. And they want instruction, but they want to be able to do it on their own. So if when we turn from mentor, instructor, boss to facilitator, we’re now guiding them through and then learning on their own. And when they make their own mistake, they can tell, they’ll be able to say, oh, man, I did that wrong. You did, but you’re learning. So that’s great, right? So there are going to be people though, however, that will want you to hold their hand the entire way. And you just have to slowly wean them off of holding their hand by allowing them to, learn by allowing them to learn from their own mistakes, and not being able to gather their data on their own as to what’s right and what’s wrong. So like with an adult athlete, with pure teaching a push up, right, and they do the push up wrong, and they feel it in their shoulders where they’re not really supposed to. And they say, oh, man, I felt that wrong. Great. You’ve learned and then they fix their position. And then they feel it where they’re supposed to. And they say, Okay, this is what it’s supposed to look like. Does that make sense?

 

Brett Bartholomew  23:59  

Yeah. 100% mean, what you’re talking about, and I hadn’t been familiar with Bob until you had mentioned something but one thing the very little I do know about him other than your research, is that like me, he’s a big believer that lecture based, you know, learning is not effective. Right. And, I think to give people insight, because I don’t know that I’ve talked about this on the show, you know, I worked for an organization where for many years, I had the chance to go lead workshops internationally. And I loved it. It was a great, experience. It helped me grow in many ways. But predominantly, they even though they were a mix of like lecture and hands on a lot, I mean, a lot was lecture and that has a place in scientific communities because you do need to go through the research. But when we started our apprenticeship like our workshops, we knew that yeah, too much death by PowerPoint, and it’s spoon feeding and it’s like that old quote, that spoon feeding in the long run just teaches people nothing but the shape of the spoon. And what I find fascinating and I don’t know if you’re with me on this or not, and feel free to disagree is there’s so many people that kind of use that quote. tell me and I forget, teach me I remember, involve me and I learned and I think that was attributed to Benjamin Franklin. Yet so many people do, especially I know in ScienceBase industry, certainly in strength and conditioning seem to want to want to be spoon fed. I mean, we, know that we openly advertise our stuff as hey, this is not death by PowerPoint, you know, if you like, come get involved. And we took special care. I mean, you saw it firsthand. The first 10 slides that we do show make that clear of saying, Hey, this is what we can do, we can teach you, we can give you tools to implement, we can’t make you implement them. Like there’s no script to coaching or leadership or life. We’re trying to teach you how to think instead of what to think. And then we even included a slide that says, even if we spoon feed you, like the chewing or swallowing is still up to you yet, we will have people sometimes that are like, hey, despite the 263 slides, we got over two days, we wish there was more slides and what is it do you think? And it’s just feel free to ponder this right moments of silence are fine. But what is it that has made our society so dependent? So, desired to like want drop down lists and how to manuals and spoon feeding? Why do we want this security so much? Where we’ve, like eroded experiential learning and accountability.

 

Tiffany Peltier  26:25  

Yeah, wow. That’s a great question.

 

Brett Bartholomew  26:28  

and feel free just to riff on it, you know, you don’t have to nobody’s gonna look back on it and be like, well, like, what’s your raw opinion of why we seem to be so dependent on, on on all those things?

 

Tiffany Peltier  26:40  

Honestly, so I’ve had this conversation with my mom many times, and honestly, I think it’s because we’re not taught to really think anymore. You know, I mean, like debate and really have think and debate and really have a really forced to have to think completely on your own about something

 

Brett Bartholomew  27:04  

and like have skin in the game. I think a lot of people can kind of just fade to black and, you know, don’t have to worry about, you know, like you said, I think knowing how to think comes from putting yourself in situations, right? Because you have to, like there’s a difference between whether you have experience or exposure to something if I have exposure to something I could watch, right? I could be an observer, right? if I have experience, there’s direct participation in something. And so do you think it has to do with a little bit of that we become this voyeuristic society that just wants information, but necessarily doesn’t always really have the desire to do something with it, we we almost a social status or what?

 

Tiffany Peltier  27:46  

I think that has a lot to do with it. You know, I’m when I was, you know, when, you were growing up when we were growing up, I don’t think you’re much your age is much different than mine. But I remember when we brought home the first computer, and before that I had to go search for stuff in the you know, at the library for the encyclopedia stuff wasn’t just immediately available. So I think that I think the immediately availableness of everything in the world is what’s is a part of what’s happening. Because now, you know, people can experience in video games stuff that you used to have to experience firsthand. For example, I don’t know if this was on my bio or not, but I’m a tactical athlete. And we have there’s this competition called the tactical games. And it’s a two day event where there’s three battles. They call them battles, three battles on Saturday and three battles on Sunday. And it is what kids do playing video games.

 

Brett Bartholomew  28:55  

Yeah. unpack this for a second. What do you mean to tactical? When I think tactical athlete I think of how we refer to a lot of men and women, you know, and again, I know you served, but I think people still that kind of we’ve used that term in the performance industry now to kind of talk about people in that population that we work with, but this sounds more like a competition of sorts. Give me an example of tactical athlete.

 

Tiffany Peltier  29:17  

Yeah, so it is a competition and a lot of the people who participate in this they are former military, present day military, law enforcement, retired law enforcement and there are some civilians, but it’s a competition where you’re wearing a like a tactical weighted vest. You’ve got a pistol, a sidearm, you’ve got a rifle. You have your ammo and you’re running. You like the one of the events that I just did we on 321 Go you shoot. We are pistol, you kneel, you shoot your rifle. You run five 100 yards, you climb a rope, you run a 300 yards you low crawl underneath a wall, like a lifted wall, run 500 yards climb a 30 foot rope, run 800 yards, climb a short wall, huh?

 

Brett Bartholomew  30:19  

I said, Good lord, we’re not done. I’m waiting for when you have to find a rhinoceros. Keep going. Yeah,

 

Tiffany Peltier  30:23  

we’re not Yeah, we’re not done yet. So you run 800 yards, you climb a short wall, run 100 yards, climb the medium size, well run 100 yards, climb a tall wall, which the tall wall is about eight to nine feet, run 300 yards and you have to, we had to climb over a 12 foot concrete two foot wide wall, jump down, run 400 yards, climb over a cargo net run to the firing line fire pistol, fire 20 rounds of pistol and 20 rounds of rifle and you’re done. Right. So that’s an actual experience. But kids are playing these on video games. So the ability to be able to just watch that on the video game, which you can do now with everything. There’s, you know, basketball, video games, there’s football, video games, just being able to do that on the video games and then not having to go out and do it in person. I think that is where that’s where

 

Brett Bartholomew  31:26  

the trade off is. Yeah, I mean, I think there’s some truth. I mean, it’s the same thing, whether it’s, I mean, video games, or people that go to conferences, or people that, you know, engage on social media, what we’re talking about here is people that think you get better at something by observing it. And that goes back to what we mentioned at the beginning of, what was fascinating in the, in the research in my space of how do we define effective leadership. And there’s tons of debates on this over the past 100 years of literature research, and I’m not embellishing but what they find is they they don’t even get along on how they define leadership, you know, many define leadership as a process of influence, you know, where you influence the emotions, attitudes, behaviors of others. And I agree with that, I think the one common thing we see in the coaching literature and leadership literature, and this is why, you know, we see them synonymous is the thing they do agree on is both are a social practice that require communication. But then for some, they think that, oh, well, I get better at communication through life, what you know, or I get better at communication through observing great communicators. Again, it’s like saying you become better at the cello by watching your a celloist. So even if you don’t play that, you can’t do that, you have to have reflective practice. So my, like, my question to you is this knowing, like getting, knowing that you do so much background on the science of helping adults learn, right, and one of those notions being about them being self directed and autonomous? That obviously has to include some level of reflection, some level of evaluation or something? Talk to us more about that, whether it’s the type of reflection you partake in your own professional development, the kind that you try to make available in that environment? How do we make people more self aware? So they don’t think it’s just a matter of showing up and observing, but actually, again, having this deliberate engagement and reflection with a thing or a skill?

 

Tiffany Peltier  33:16  

Yeah, so that’s a really great question. so to answer the one about for myself, my own self reflection is anytime I get a little bit of time during the day, I’ll get alone, and it’s usually at the gym, and I have to go into the restroom because it’s the only place I can be alone. But, I’ll look at okay, what did I do these last few hours? Who did I effect? Was it a positive effect? Was it a negative effect? If it was a negative effect? What did I do and how can I change it? And that has not been easy for me. I learned to do that when I was in the military and I became a higher enlisted rank where I was in charge of people and I’d had some really bad leaders and some really good leaders. But I had always just thought well because of my rank, because the leader that I had, because of my rank, people will listen to what I say and do what I need them to do. Which is so off base, your position or your position power or your rank or your job title, whatever is minuscule on the in what people care about, right? Most people want people power most people will look at a person and say, okay, Can I under? Can I relate to them? Are they going to relate to me? Are they gonna care

 

Brett Bartholomew  34:50  

like French and ravens bases of power, right? Like you’re talking about legitimate power being the job if I have, if I have if I’m a director, if I’m a manager, if I’m this oh, there Don’t listen to me. We’re in reality. We know that referent power, like you’re saying, and you and you say to that, well, how much I relate to this person that’s so much more impactful today.

 

Tiffany Peltier  35:11  

Yeah, so I reflect on all of that myself. And when it comes to my students or my athletes, I’ll sit down with them after our after our session. And I’ll ask them I’ll, and this is called the experiential learning cycle. What I use with them, is I will sit down and I’ll ask them, what happened? What did you do? How did you feel about it? And it makes them go back through the hour long session, or through the eight hour, you know, training day that we had, whatever it was, it makes them take a minute, and think back to what they did. Okay, what did I do? Was it successful was unsuccessful? What did I do to change that if it was unsuccessful to be successful? And I find that asking a person after everything, how did it go? What did you do? What went well? What didn’t? And then taking a moment to let them think like you said, silence is fine. Most people are very uncomfortable with that silent pause.

 

Brett Bartholomew  36:16  

Oh, I’m like that. I mean, I can be not to interrupt. But like this being a conversation I’d be it would behoove me not to admit like, especially when I’m leading some of our groups and like our coalition group, or what have you, I feel immense pressure, and it’s self induced, right. But I feel immense pressure to fill the void, because these calls whether we meet weekly, or bi weekly, and it depends on you know, which program somebody is in, I want a packet filled with information as much as I can. And I mean, helpful stuff, right? Not not like information, just as if it’s all created equal. But then I have to remember dude, like shut up, you know, but then I worry, alright, well, if you don’t kind of give enough perspective, are they going to feel like they’re getting enough? And so much of that is derived from the insecurity of wanting to help and not knowing if you’re being helpful enough?

 

Tiffany Peltier  37:03  

Yeah. And so the other thing that I find in I found it interesting that you say you want a packet with information is, I have found that that silent pause can be more informative, sometimes than actually speaking. Because it gives like it gives my student or my athlete, the time to actually think about what they did, and what happened. And nine times out of 10, they’re very appreciative for that silent pause. And they, you know, the other day, I just had one of my athletes say, Thank you for letting me think about that. Because it really helped me to see how far I’ve come because he was really down on himself, right? He didn’t think he was doing really good on one of the movements I was having him do, and he didn’t realize it, but throughout the entire session, we were adding weight. And his, movement was fine. It wasn’t perfect, but it was fine. And, you know, there’s always little things that we can critique and fix, but it was doing really, really well. And when I had him take a minute just to think about it, he’s like, Wait, Tiffany, did you add weight during that time? I said, Yeah, I did. He said, really? And I said, Yeah, you got up to you know, however many pounds he’s and it really turned him around. He said, Oh, man, that’s awesome. So it did really do well. And I said, Yeah, you did. But it took that silent pause, a minute for him to think back and say, Wait, she put weight on. And then that’s when he got that that’s when he found you know, that he was actually doing well. So I think that silent pause can be extremely informative.

 

Brett Bartholomew  38:45  

Yeah. And so I was going to ask you, when in your research, when you look at, you know, if somebody’s coming up to you, and they’re saying, okay, Tiffany coaching adults versus kids, what’s the difference? Right, and you mentioned some other things about accountability and things that you saw in your research regarding that. But you find that from a communication standpoint, these pauses, you know, what else that we may be overlooking, even if it’s so obvious, what are other things in your research that you tend to see, as it pertains to either teaching methods or communication strategies or something else?

 

Tiffany Peltier  39:17  

Yeah. So the one thing I found with adult learners, or adult athletes, if you will, is their need to know why and to be involved in it. I found in my research that the majority of the majority of the athletes, when they came in, they would look at the workout that was written on the board, or they would look at it the night before, and they would come in and have questions. Why are we doing this? What does this actually you know, what does this help? What are we going to what benefits are we going to see from this? Why am I doing this? Where kids sometimes ask why? They just I think they ask why just for the sake of asking why it’s not like they’re actually able The process the reasoning behind the why,

 

Brett Bartholomew  40:02  

oh, you might have some people that battle you on that though, like when you because I think you want to talk about like what, you know when we’re talking about kids identify what you’re defining as that group, because you might have some people that say, Well, I’m out. You know, my kid is very, you know, insightful and introspective and this and that. So unpack that a little bit, because I know there’s gonna be some people that are like, ah, that’s an absolute What did you say to those folks? 

 

Tiffany Peltier  40:24  

Yeah, absolutely. So when I say why I’m looking, I’m also looking at the fact that adults will look at it, and they will put it back to their past experience. So goes back to the factor that I said, they come in with baggage. When adults come in with that baggage or their experience, they will attach that to every single thing that you do and to everything that they’re going to learn. And when they ask why are we doing this? Or how is this helpful? They will look at it and go, Okay, what is my past experience is, is really going to be helpful, then they’ll also look at it as to how can I implement this now or in the future? So like, let’s just say a movement, let’s say a clean and jerk, right? Where you and I always use this one as my example, because it’s really easy for adults to understand is a clean and jerk is where you take the bar from the ground, you lift it to your shoulders, and then you put it up overhead. Okay, so I have adults who say, Well, why do we need to do this? And I say, Okay, do you have a tall shelf in your house? Yes. Well, have you had to put a heavy box on there? Yes. How did you do it? Well, I picked it up, I got it to my chest, and then I pushed it overhead. Like, okay, so there you go. I said, Did you have any, you know, did your form look like this? Oh, no. Did it hurt after you were, you know, after you put that on the shelf? Absolutely. Okay. Now I understand. So when I say that about the difference between adults and kids, and asking, why is that adults ask why? To put it to their past experience, their current experience, and then they look at how to use it in the future, where most kids don’t do the present and the future. They look at. They will look at well, I didn’t learn it this way before but okay, I’m learning it now. So fine. There’s very few kids that actually, and I’m not saying they’re not out there.

 

Brett Bartholomew  42:21  

There’s always gonna be Yeah, you’re not speaking in absolutes. You’re talking generally, but what the research,

 

Tiffany Peltier  42:25  

right? Most kids don’t look at, well, how can I use this in the future? How is this going to help me in the future? So that’s, that’s what I mean by the asking why. And, the potential use

 

Brett Bartholomew  42:30  

no that helps because I remember reading in your article, and you know, we’ll want to talk at the end where people can find this research or gain access, whether it’s to email you or what have you, because I think they need to read it. You do talk about outlining these six adult learning principles. And I think, you know, going back you use the word learner, correct? you know, I, for this show, using the word learners way more appropriate than athlete because not everybody listening is an athlete. Now, we’re not going to get into the whole mantra of like, well, if you have a buddy, you’re an athlete, like, yeah, you know, like, we’re talking about people that are in business, the military, you know, education and what have you. So, but I remember these six adult learning principles, and please stop me if any of them are wrong, was, like you said, the learners need to know why, and really unpack that, why what, how not just saying that, right? This concept of the learner, you know, and I think that one can be tricky for people to understand. But really saying is, is somebody that is more autonomous? Are they self directing? Are they not? Right? Like, what is their form of self efficacy, right, that’s tied to self concept. Like, there’s all things we feel like we’re not, like, you know, words come more naturally to me than images, meaning I’m not a skilled graphic designer. Now, if I want it to be, I could certainly learn that, but like, my desire to do that, and my self concept of what that would bring, and the amount of like, you know, work it would take relative to the payoff, and what have you just not there? Right? I’d be right, exactly, you know, prior experiences, the resources, and then I think another big one is readiness to learn. Ya know, a lot of times adults can come in and you know, whether I’m talking to my mom or somebody else, even if I go speak at a business conference, all inevitably because of my background get out. So hey, what’s a great training session for this? Right? Like that person’s demonstrating? A readiness to learn, you know, or at least take on a new skill or people that have questions about the subject matter that you know, at the end? we’ll ask something thoughtful, insightful, they’re demonstrating that where kids may not always and again, nobody’s speaking in absolutes, there’s very curious children, you know, I we’re gonna make 

 

Tiffany Peltier  44:34  

absolutely

 

Brett Bartholomew  44:35  

 because, you know, somebody I know is listening and say, Well, Mike, you know, I have a two year old in the backseat that on a four hour car ride goes why, Daddy, why, you know why? Why is this but like you said, they’re asking for general kinds of purposes. They’re not acting so they can project into the future in terms of a mental model of, you know, preparing for the next time they see those things. 

 

Tiffany Peltier  44:53  

Exactly. Yeah. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  44:54  

And then orientation to learning, right? Like, are they problems centered? Do they understand context, right? The situations. So, you know, are most of those kind of just saying, hey, yes, these are all things that kids have in develop, it’s just that adults have developed them at a higher level based on where they’re at in life. So there’s nuances of how to address those relative to children. Is that what you’re saying?

 

Tiffany Peltier  45:17  

Yeah, so, absolutely. So kids have all of these, you know, their kids that are just are not ready to learn. But it’s not on a, it’s not really in a let’s see, how do I put this? 

 

Brett Bartholomew  45:34  

It’s an optional or a hierarchical or like, are you thinking about like a dichotomy? Something like, either or?

 

Tiffany Peltier  45:41  

Yeah, sort of, but, they’re not prepared to use all of that information. Right then and there and, also again, in the future, right. So where they have where they want to know the why, and the when and how, and they’re learning it. They are like sponges, so they’re taking all of that in and say, Okay, here it is. They’re like a sponge, taking everything in we’re an adult is more like a sponge being wrung out.

 

Brett Bartholomew  46:07  

Ooh, all right. Yeah. I think that makes sense. I mean, they still have to take it in to wring it out. But 100%, where, you know, you’re talking about where they are in that cycle?

 

Tiffany Peltier  46:17  

Yes, Yeah. So as kids get older, they may express some of these, you know, some of these attributes or the these six

 

Brett Bartholomew  46:32  

attributes worse? Yeah.

 

Tiffany Peltier  46:34  

Yeah. Where they may, you know, they may say, Okay, well, this is why we’re doing this. And I understand that, you know, like, I understand now, why we’re going on a seven hour car ride so that we can go see grandma, right, but it’s not, we’re on a seven hour car ride so that we can go see grandma, but now we’re gonna have to go back on a seven hour car ride to go back home to do this to do that, right. So it’s, there may be a little bit of ringing out but not a full ringing out of the sponge. They’re still just collecting everything. And the so I got into this question with my research paper as to what is actually an adult, I looked at the research of just the CrossFit, the CrossFit community. And the CrossFit community is growing exponentially in the ages of 30. And above, which really surprised me, it did and, it didn’t, because of the of just how everybody wants to be so healthy and active now. But we also have a very large group of teenagers 16 17 18 19 20 years old, you know, just in that area, just before you can drink. And I don’t really know what the age for adults is, it could be 16, based on their, how they’re able to communicate based on how they’re able to look at their experiences and, do say what a 30 year old would do. So I don’t have an actual age in there. I was just looking at people over the age of 21.

 

Brett Bartholomew  48:14  

I know this I know, the researchers when we were doing stuff on on modal strength and, and quote unquote, learning preferences and what have you, we found that they classified in the research adolescent as 10 to 23. And that made sense to me, although Yeah, it was surprising, right? But it didn’t make sense also, because as you know, from anatomy and physiology, the prefrontal cortex, the part of our brain that largely and I’m being, you know, speaking generally here just for sake of time in the audience, but the the part of the brain, that’s the seat of consciousness, right, what makes us is rational decision making. So much of that is tied in even though yes, rationality is tied into emotion and many argue and I think convincingly, so especially Antonio Damasio, that emotion is under played a lot and we need to give it more credit, but the point being that they had mentioned that 10 to 23 is adolescence. I’m sure there’s 30 Other researchers that would argue that but I found fairly significant consistent research that stated that so that gives us an orientation point to

 

Tiffany Peltier  49:12  

well that’s great. Yeah, I didn’t know that. I’ll have to get that research from you for sure. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  49:16  

Yeah. But no, I think what what this goes to tie this together it’s a lot of when we talk about great adult kids what’s the difference? You are talking about their place in the experiential learning cycle something that I became familiar with only when we started kind of going into my doctorate and designing our apprenticeship live workshop is what you’re saying is again there’s concrete experience right what happened there reflection okay, what did I experience there? What like what were the actual like, behaviors consequences, all those things? Then there’s that conceptualize, which is alright, well, why did this happen? Not just what did I experience and what happened but why did it happen? And then finally, application, you know, which is that act of experimentation and improvisation. And what will I do? And the way I’m hearing it in the way it seems to make sense to me is, kids very much will ask what happened. And they’ll try to make sense of what they experienced. But they don’t always go into they may ask, why did that happen, but again, the level of cognition or conceptualization, the amount of resources they’re able to draw in to make sense of the situation. And the context is not as complete, always, as an adult now, right? I also think, and we talked about this, we have some very non observant adults. And that’s why we have this spoon feeding problem. So the whole thing really seems to be centered around some form of experiential learning cycle. And where you sit on this. I mean, I think it’s clear, I definitely need to do an episode on this in the future and dive deeper.

 

Tiffany Peltier  50:42  

Yeah, oh, the, the experiential learning cycle is amazing. We actually use the experiential learning cycle in the Coast Guard. When I was my final days before I retired, I was an instructor at the Maritime Law Enforcement Academy in Charleston. And we teach boarding officers Coast Guard, law enforcement, how to deal with, situations, and we use the experiential learning cycle, because we use role playing, and we put the officers in a situation where they may have to subdue a subject, where they may have to, you know, just talk to a subject or whatever. And when they’re roleplay is done, we bring it back, and we say, Okay, what happened, and we put them through that experiential learning cycle, and nine times out of 10, they learn so much from going through that, and they understand and then when it comes time for their evaluation, they’ve fixed what they did wrong, because it’s like Bob pike says, people don’t argue with their own data, right? So that goes hand in hand with the experiential learning cycle. When you ask them, what happened, what did you do? Why did it happen? And they have to go through it in their heads. They’re like, Oh, man, I should have done this, this and this, or, Oh, I did this. And it was great. So they really do learn more, and then they can fix what needs to be fixed, or they continue doing what they’ve done. Right

 

Brett Bartholomew  52:07  

Yeah, I think that’s well said. I remember reading in some of the research done by Owen Harkey, who said, they were talking about the process of association and how we socialize, right? And we all know that our earliest ancestors who lived in groups were more likely to survive than those that were alone. And so we know that communication skills have been critical or central role as a research puts it in human evolution. But they talked about, you know, the essence of communication is the formation and expression of an identity. And we did an episode, I don’t remember the exact number, I can look it up quickly. And I will, this is what makes it a real show, right? People actually, we take the I was episode 117, where I talk about impression management and the roles that we play, yet people think they don’t roleplay right. And we talked about this too, and maybe you I mean, you’ve demonstrated it so well, but one of our more popular episodes was coaching as improv, because it was pretty polarizing. There are some people that, you know, I you know, I don’t improvise, and I think of this and, you know, when I lead, I have a plan, and I have contingencies. And it’s like, well, one, listen to the episode. Two, I think people when they think improv and role playing, they only think about theater, they think that it’s stupid stuff, sketches. That is not it, like talk to me about like, what role playing means in your mind? And and the way that it’s brought out? I mean, again, you were in a room with eight to 10 other strangers who you did not get to know you didn’t even know the names of them right away? like, how does role playing helping you?

 

Tiffany Peltier  53:37  

Oh, wow. Okay. So, in your class, when I remember the very first one, people were really kind of hesitant to, improv and roleplay. And I was like, Okay, I’m just gonna get the most out of this that I possibly can. I took what I learned in that class, and I’ve used it coaching. And it made me realize that I’ve actually been using it. So let’s say if I’m coaching a, if I’m coaching someone, and they all of a sudden, you know, they’re like, oh, man, I just can’t do this. I can’t do let’s say they’re doing a box jump, I can’t do this box jump. Okay, well, let’s do a step up. Well, I can’t do a step up. So anytime I think that you modify a movement or you scale a movement, you’re improving, because it’s going against what was actually written or what you’re intending to do for that person in the first place. The other thing that I’ve found is when in my warm ups I like to do games with my athletes. And if I set up a game that’s for 10 people because I think I’m going to have 10 people, but only eight show up and it’s only going to work with 10 people I have to figure out something to do on the spot. So that’s to me that says that It’s a form of improv trying to figure out what to do, right? If the shit hits the fan, what are you going to do different? It’s, you know, in the military, it’s what’s your plan A, what’s your plan B? What’s your contingency plans, right? So, to me after taking that class and really looking at improv and really kind of reflecting on all of it, I think most, most coaches and instructors and facilitators do it every day. They just don’t know they’re doing it because it’s not called improv to them. It’s a contingency plan. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  55:27  

It’s called life. 

 

Tiffany Peltier  55:29  

Yeah, it’s called life.

 

Brett Bartholomew  55:31  

Right? And that’s a central thing we talked about in the episode is how many people woke up knowing every single thing was gonna happen. And again, you always have that person that’s like, well, I have my planner. I’m like, shut up. You don’t know. Like, right now, guess what, Tiffany, you have no idea where we’re going next in this conversation. You don’t know if it’s going to end? You know, that’s, how life is life is improv. So when people say, Well, you know, I don’t know, like improv, I mean, what you’re talking about as extemporaneous decision making, right like resourcefulness, you’re talking about all these things that you know, and we go over the research definition, because it might surprise people to know that there is a lot of research on improv and leadership development. And we talked about it in that, yeah, we have covered a lot. And I want people to be able to read your research, I want people to get familiar with you. So we’ve come to the end. But before we end, I got to put you kind of on the proverbial hot seat a little bit of, of having some fun. So if you’ve listened to the show, you know that we do something. And we go back and forth with the name, but we just call it kind of the gray area, or black and white thinking a little bit. You could either one, where I’m gonna give you a famous quote, right? And you’re gonna have to argue where that quote is true, right? Like where you agree with it, and where you think it’s absolute bullshit. And I choose these quotes purposefully, because these are quotes that most people would be like, oh, yeah, like, you know, that’s totally right now, right. So to end today, you’ve got a hard one. And it is like a quintessential one that people use on email lines on inspirational stuff. I had to catch myself there anything like that. So and you can choose whether you want to argue for it or against it first, I don’t care. But you’ve got to do both, right? This way from no other than Mahatma Gandhi. 

 

Tiffany Peltier  57:16  

Great. Thanks, Brett. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  57:17  

Be the change you want to see in the world?

 

Tiffany Peltier  57:21  

Yes. Okay, be the change you want to see in the world 

 

Brett Bartholomew  57:25  

where it went, like, make an argument a point for that being bullshit and make a point for it being of course true.

 

Tiffany Peltier  57:33  

Okay, so I’m gonna go for the harder one first smart, move it bullshit to me. So be the be the change you want to see in the world? Well, okay, so bullshit. First off, is you may change, you may change yourself, and you may change one person. But if you change that one person, you’re not actually changing the world, especially in and I’m gonna kind of go on the hot seat, I’m gonna put myself kind of in the hot chair right now, especially in the world we’re living today. And how people own other people, right? So there’s so many people that I see that aren’t really truly themselves. And you could change but if you allow somebody else to dictate your life, or you allow somebody else to dictate what you think is right, what you want to do, then you can change all you want, you can try to change all you want. But if you continue to let that person dictate you, then you’re not changing anything, and you’re not changing the world.

 

Brett Bartholomew  58:45  

Yeah, I mean, if I’m hearing you, right, it’s saying, Hey, if you let the world dictate, and I know this one’s personal for me, because I got myself into a lot of trouble following this, like, as a kid, as a teenager, as I talked about my book, you know, I went through a phase where my friends started getting really flaky. High school was an interesting time. You know, I saw people that just weren’t committed doing damaging stuff to their bodies. I was pretty judgmental, right. But like, I just saw the things that I didn’t agree with. And I very much tried being perfect. And we know that that is absolutely an awful idea. And I tried to address my training in a perfect way. And my nutrition, I mean, it led to me essentially having an eating disorder, because I was eating, you know, basically low fat and low carb, but all these magazines, I was 15. Right? said, yeah, do people have heard this story again, and again, you know, and then I would go work out and I’d see somebody quit on the treadmill earlier. So I’d run five minutes longer, you know, or, you know, somebody would get up at a certain time so I tried to get and I just wore myself I mean, it took a long time, you know, not with the exercise nutrition, but eventually just burn out and it’s not a healthy way to live. And if you’re constantly nitpicking all the other things and think you want to change, you can really neglect self care and get over over involved in things so I can agree even though we know what Gandhi was saying, the point of the exercise is to do what you and I just did. Right. Have some fun with it. Now where do you where do you agree with it?

 

Tiffany Peltier  1:00:08  

Yeah, so, before I go there, I just want to let you know the reason why I came up with it so fast. I have a similar history  that you do. I was actually using Hydroxycut was ephedrine back in the day. And not eating and, you know, trying to get to that Shape magazine person, because that’s what was supposed to be beautiful, even though I was not. There’s nowhere near created like that. I’m six foot and almost 200 pounds of muscle like, I am not going to look like a Shape magazine model, right. So I actually ended up in the hospital with heart palpitations, and wearing a heart monitor for a week. So that’s why I got there so quick. So I was like, Wait, this is what that means to me. So I have somewhat of a you do. similar past that

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:00:55  

No, I didn’t know that. Yeah, I think I appreciate you sharing. 

 

Tiffany Peltier  1:00:58  

Yeah, absolutely. So , where it would be true, or where I would go with That quote to be true, is, I believe that if you write so if you give love, I believe that you’ll get love. Now, not all the time, there are going to be those people who just treat you like shit no matter what, right? But I’ve found that as a coach, when I actually care for my athletes, or my students, when I’m teaching, when I actually show that I care, I have seen changes in that class where people who may not have spoken with one another actually end up speaking with each other. Or I’ve seen it change people’s demeanor when they come in, right. So I don’t know if it’s changing the world. But I do know that when I treat someone with respect, and I show them that I care, that that usually gives me a better outcome than if I didn’t. So and I know this isn’t going along with that it’s completely true. But I do believe that I that you get what you give, right. So if you’re just an asshole to everybody, people are just gonna be an asshole to you too. But if you show people you care, that might help turn them around.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:02:23  

Now, I appreciate that very much. I think that’s clear. All right, going on to the next one. What is and this is the last one so that you can take a breath. What you know, people typically ask the most common questions I’ve gotten forever. And why did we do so many free downloads where people can get resources on these things on artofcoaching.com? And brettbartholomew.net? is I always got hammered with Hey, What books should I read? What advice do you have all these kinds of things, right? I want to know, you know, what is the worst advice you’ve ever received? And again, I know it may be tough to recall though. So I don’t care if it’s top 10, top five or your top one. But as it pertains to being a leader or standing out in your field or anything like that. What is some of the worst advice you’ve either ever received or heard somebody else give?

 

Tiffany Peltier  1:03:09  

Okay, so there my top one, that’s easy. That was when I was in the Coast Guard. He goes back to one of my leaders. And this This is kind of goes back to what I was saying earlier where my position packed with position power or legitimate power. My, mentor and leader at the time, he said, Don’t worry, they’ll do what you say because you outrank them. 

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:03:33  

Yeah, that’s bad. 

 

Tiffany Peltier  1:03:34  

Yeah. So yeah, I’ve learned real quick, that that was not true. And, it was definitely a hard lesson to learn. But when I look back, I am so grateful that I learned that lesson. Because I learned a lot about myself, what I can take, what I can’t take, what I can do and what I can’t do, as far as leadership is concerned. And I think that’s super important for leaders is to know their boundaries and know their limits. Because you will have people who will push those. And I learned that was probably the number one. That’s the one I always remember and if I can’t think of any other ones, but that one was top list number one of all time the worst leadership advice I’d ever been given.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:04:29  

Yeah, I love it. I appreciate that. I agree wholeheartedly. Tiffany? Where can people reach out to you? Where can they find you? I’m super grateful for your time. I know that this is one of many conversations we’ll continue to have and I definitely we are going to be doing a second level of the apprenticeship. You know, we continue to refine the beta that we’re in. We just you know, I used to worry that everything had to be perfect in this and that we really teach it differently every time but we are in the process of creating a four day like kind of facilitator course and you better be there but, where can people reach out to you? How can they support your work? Where can they learn more about your research?

 

Tiffany Peltier  1:05:06  

so they can just email me I’m not like I said, I’m not real big on social media, I probably should be a little bit better at it. But my email address, they can email me it’s ti F F dot m, as in Mike, dot peltier my last nameb@fitwtiff.com. So that’s my last nam at fitwithtiff.com. I’m also I am on Instagram, and it’s @fit_w_tif they can get me through there.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:05:44  

Yeah, we’ll put them all in the show notes. As usual guys, our team does a great job of the show notes, Ali Kershner and other contributors. So you know make sure to check that out. Tiffany, I want to thank you again from everybody at art of coaching you it’s been great getting a chance to know you interact with you coach you and also learn from you. So thank you for your time and we’ll look forward to meeting again in the future. 

 

Tiffany Peltier  1:06:04  

Yes, thank you so much again, I was honored to be here I greatly appreciate it.

 

Brett Bartholomew  1:06:08  

My pleasure guys is the art of coaching podcast if you want more remember we have courses we have free book chapters we have free, free presentations, all these things on artofcoaching.com you can find them any it’s so easy just go there all these questions about books to read. What do you recommend advice you have artofcoaching.com We’ll have that for you. This is Brett Bartholomew Tiffany Peltier signing off.