E64 | PJ Nestler: The Role of Breath in Performance - Art Of Coaching™

Posted February 20, 2020

TRANSCRIPTION

Brett Bartholomew 0:01

Welcome back, everybody to another episode of The Art of coaching Podcast. I’m joined today by my friend, PJ Nestler. PJ, what’s good, man?

PJ Nestler 0:09

It’s all good. Brett, thanks for having me.

Brett Bartholomew 0:12

Yeah, no, it’s my pleasure PJ, can you go into a little bit about your background, you don’t need to do the whole diatribe, but a little bit about your experience as a coach, and now everything you’re doing as an educator and an entrepreneur for the audience.

PJ Nestler 0:23

Absolutely. My background comes primarily from sports performance, I got into the industry, aiming at being a division one strength and conditioning coach for football. So I got into strength and conditioning on the collegiate side, and did that early on in my college days, through playing football, and then went through that spectrum for a little while I worked in the collegiate setting, then I transitioned into the private sector. And I started working with a handful of different athletes, I really enjoyed working with football, hockey and fighters, fighters is one of my big passions. So I started working more in the private sector, specifically because I really wanted to work with fighters.

And in the private sector, I started transitioning into I became the director of the facility I was at. So I was kind of pushed into some leadership roles, and was forced to really start to figure that out. And a lot of the companies I worked with, we didn’t have a lot of systems in place, I shouldn’t say a lot, we didn’t have any systems in place to onboard coaches to get things, you know, systematically run. So that was something that I was always seeking in the way that I learned, I was always looking for somebody who could give me some sort of system to expedite my understanding. But I never really found that. So when I was pushed into a leadership role, I just started creating that. And that was probably seven, eight years ago.

And then I kept kind of transitioning, I started onboarding interns and young coaches, and I really started teaching them and I enjoyed that a lot, I had a passion for sharing just my experiences and trying to put those things together. And just the challenge of trying to put my thought processes around training into a system they could understand. So the more I kept doing that I ended up becoming the regional director of a few facilities. And as my roles continued to expand my education requirements across the different facilities kept expanding. So I just kept going further and further into that. And I really, really enjoyed that. Fast forward to a couple of years ago, I ended up quitting that job to start my own business that was geared towards trainer education, running mentorship programs, and really just guiding young, at that point, I’ve been coaching for about 10 years in the industry and in a variety of different settings.

So I was just geared towards really helping young coaches and trainers understand how to train athletes and also a little bit of how to run the business and how to look at the business side of especially the private sector, you know, the stuff that we don’t get taught and a good amount of the art of coaching as well. So I was trying to put all those pieces together and a little education system. And then very soon after that I got picked up by XPT that was really looking for somebody to do exactly that to take this really cool concept that they’ve been doing in these retreat experiences, and systemize it into a program that can be taught to coaches and trainers. So I saw that as an opportunity to just do what I really enjoy doing on a much larger scale. And I jumped on with them about two years ago. And now I’m working through their parent company Movement to actually do the same thing across their whole spectrum their whole of companies that they work with. So I’ll be doing the very similar process for about 10 to 12 different fitness performance brands.

Brett Bartholomew 3:44

So a lot to chew on there. And like just to recap and you started wanting to work with different teams, a wide variety of athletes, you started working for other organizations, then you started out kind of your own business, right? Like because what you learned from the process management of being able to get these systems in place. And when you say systems I imagine that’s everything from the training systems to intake to data collection, right? Like when you say systems just for the sake of our audience, like what were those systems that you were trying to put together that guided you both when you were working for corporations when you started your own business and now when you become whether you want to admit it or not a notable figurehead for another global organization what are those systems that are so crucial that you think, you know, anybody listening regardless of their profession just needs to be aware of when they’re first starting out or even as they’re evolving within their current role?

PJ Nestler 4:38

Yeah, it was everything from the beginning of kind of developing your brand and creating a vision of who you want to be. And then how you communicate that and connect with people so you can actually bring them into your facility and then talking with people and onboarding them, getting them from a person who walks in the door to a person who trains at your facility. And then going testing systems, you know, how we would actually test our athletes and tracking. And then really the the bulk of it is the training side,

And how we systematically go about training athletes, designing programs, all of that. And then a good amount of the continued follow up in terms of the art of coaching, how we continue to keep people engaged, and a part of our curriculum, and how to be a professional, you know, all of the other intricate pieces that go into the business side of it, from, you know, how we keep the facility clean to how we dress, like a professional and everything in between

Brett Bartholomew 5:36

Like, is that something you feel like, as you mentioned, we don’t get taught that in strength and conditioning? And, you know, I’ve talked about on this podcast before that it’s almost rebelled against, right, we’re taught to be professional in terms of how we handle kind of the weight room. But what do you think it is about strength and conditioning coaches in general, where there’s been this big kind of rebuff against embracing the business side of what we do? You know, like, where is it that people get so mixed up? In terms of thinking that, Oh, you starting Coach pj.com and this other stuff? Like, what’s the line between selling out and evolving in your career?

Because I bring up this example all the time, right? Like, we know, people like Steve Jobs didn’t just sit there and make Macbooks, right, like Bill Gates throughout his whole career. Isn’t the one making windows right? People have evolved within their job, but a lot of times strength coaches, what keeps them from evolving from the weight room to the boardroom and things in between? I feel like is this idea of like, oh, no, you’re only a coach, if you’re on the floor. Did you struggle with that? And if so, what were some or some key elements that you just looked at you’re like, No, I like I’ve got to get over that.

PJ Nestler 6:41

Yeah, I did struggle with that. And I think, and then I saw every young coach that I worked with struggle with it as well. And I think it’s this weird disconnect from the sales side of things. You know, as coaches, I think we get into the business because we love helping people. We love training people. And we love learning the science of it. And we are just put off by sales tactics and things that seem salesy, because for some reason, it seems so against what we do. And I think it was hard for me. And I think part of it too, comes from the people who are usually teaching us those things don’t understand what we do, at least a lot of facilities I’ve been to the marketing guy, or the salesperson always came off kind of as a sleazy salesperson and didn’t really understand what we do.

So one of the big things I tried to work with, when I had to transition to a leadership role was how can I communicate this stuff, in a way that speaks to coaches, and that was something you know, for me even stepping off the training floor and feeling like I didn’t have my hands on athletes anymore, as much, I wasn’t going to have an impact, and I had to really look at, okay, I’m not going to have a direct impact with these athletes, because I’m not training them one on one. But I am going to develop these coaches to be better coaches, and I am going to develop a framework that’s going to have a bigger impact across all the athletes that come into this facility, not just the ones I can work with. So that was one thing for me was trying to see the bigger picture of where I could have an impact.

And then understanding on the sales side of stuff. I don’t know at what point this clicked for me, I did a lot of reading into business and communicating what you do the value of what you do. And you and I actually spoke to this a few times as well back in the day when we first met, but one of the big things that connected for me was understanding that we’re not selling somebody something, it’s not a sales tactic, you are trying to communicate the value of what you do. And if you believe that the value that you’re gonna give them is more than what you’re charging them, then you’re doing them a favor. So if I’m going to charge you $3,000 For a month of training with me or a month of being a part of my system, but I believe deep down inside that I’m going to give you more than a $5,000 value than in reality, I’m just trying to communicate to you that I’m doing you a favor because I know I’m going to put my heart and soul into everything to help you achieve the goals that you set out when you came to me.

And I know that I believe I’m the best person in this area to help you get there because of my experience my knowledge base and my commitment to it. So that was something for me that really changed my mindset on that and allowed me to understand that, you know, this is a high value service because I know the amount of work I put in and the more I started seeing other people in the industry, the more I realized I was putting a lot more into what I was doing than what these other people were doing and I was getting better results. So I had no problem saying that hey, I know that my price is double what all these other people are charging.

That’s okay if that’s not for you, but this is the value that this service is worth. And the more I started doing that the more I started realizing that I was getting better results with people because I was getting people who are more committed to the process. And that just continued to fulfill that. You know, I think people are nervous that at the start to do something like that. But then when you finally do it, and it starts being successful, you realize that this was the right move all along. But it’s hard for young coaches and people to understand that because there’s just this disconnect from the sales side of things. And you see a lot of pushback.

Brett Bartholomew 10:29

Yeah, and you bring up an interesting point there with, let’s just stick with pricing and push back there. You know, I remember in college when I was getting my dorm room setup, right? Like, you always want to just find the cheapest stuff, right? Like, I’m gonna buy this cheap, that cheap, and then it breaks all the time, right? There’s a point in your life, or at least I know mine, where I’d look at all this stuff. And I’d be like, who would pay $400 for a vacuum, who would pay this who would pay that you know, what a bunch of suckers. And to a degree, like, there’s elements of that, right? But, and then you get older. And I had moved, I think four or five times and I had had enough of but like, I think it was on my like fourth Walmart vacuum that was like, and eventually I’m like, Screw this, like I’m buying, you know, this higher priced one at Costco, and my wife and I have had it for like 10 years,

And you started looking at you start understanding as you get older, and you move like, alright, cheap, things tend to break a lot. And there’s a difference between cheap and things that are a value, right? This doesn’t mean that there’s something that isn’t priced reasonably, you know, and then like, also has value but it is tough and strength and conditioning, because almost everybody wants everything, they want every clinic to be $35 they want everything you put out to be like 20 bucks, or they wanted free, or they wanted this, you know, when you look at other industries, there are clear cut delineations between these pricing structures, right?

Like it’s a conversation they’re more comfortable with having because they kind of that value recognition is there where do you think that barrier is in strength and conditioning of why we’re so insistent on everything being cheap, because I used to think it was just because none of us make a lot of money as strength coaches. But then you look at the fitness industry, and you look at some other industries, and there’s people that make, you know, around the same price range or even less, and they have no trouble paying their sometimes two to three times as much for whether it’s education or this and that, where’s that mindset shift have to occur and strengthen conditioning, even as it comes to their education, you know, because, like going to, I mean, you guys run a pretty with XPT now you run a pretty high price workshop and an event and an experience. I like that term. Like say somebody looks at that and says, PJ, you’re crazy. If you think I’m gonna pay that, like how do you deal with that blowback?

PJ Nestler 12:47

Yeah, we deal with that all the time. And I think, for us, again, it’s the same thought processes when a client came in and said, This is $150, you know, this breaks out to $150, a training session, and the guy down the street at 60. And I always would tell them that you get what you pay for in this industry. So when it comes to those kinds of courses, we price the things based on the quality and the amount of content we put into it, you could go take a $200 course. And it’s usually going to be I shouldn’t say that there’s some things, some decent courses with some good information that are lower costs. But it’s a very low barrier to entry. At this point, anybody can create a course on anything, they don’t have to be an expert, they don’t have to know anything, they just create a course put it online and you can buy it.

So with the amount of resources that we put into these courses and the amount of time that we put into them, we want to make sure that it’s priced at a point that people take it seriously. And that’s the same thing with my training, I price myself at a rate that I know, I would be able to commit myself to the amount of work required to get the results. So when I said it’s $3,000 to work with me for a month, I know that it’s not the $150 a session, because I’m going to go far and outside those sessions all the time, I’m going to be your resource 24 hours a day. And I’m going to help you get to your goal as much as I possibly can. And I know what that’s worth to me. Because if you’re only paying me $500, I can’t commit that kind of time to you because I’m going to have to have 26 other people that are paying me $500. So I’m going to have to basically focus on training you for that limited time.

And the same thing with our courses. We know that we can put the amount of resources into it, to really make it a worthwhile course for people and to make sure that we get serious people who come and take it. And that’s what I did with you know, I’m not going to put that kind of time into a client who’s just showing up for workouts, because if I’m putting in 100% and they’re putting in 20% we still won’t get the results. So I want to make sure that it’s something that they take seriously and it’s just like that vacuum you know if you bought that $40 vacuum It’s probably going to break down on you, but also, you probably don’t really give a shit about it. So if you accidentally dropped it down the stairs or you, you know, got it dinged up, you’re not going to really care.

When you buy the $400. One, you’re a little bit more careful with it, when you pack it up, you’re, you’re taking more care of it, because you’ve invested something into it. And that’s what we really wanted when we create our courses is people to understand that this is an investment. We don’t want everybody in the industry to be an XPT certified coach, we want people who are serious who are going to take this serious because it’s going to be a lot of work, a lot of preparatory work to get ready for the course. You know, I think when people invest a little bit of money, they also have the mindset of like, okay, now I’ve paid my $200 now, teach me or train me, you know, versus, Hey, I’ve invested $1,500 In this course, and I’m here to work, I’m here to get my value out of it. And I’m going to make sure that I do that. And same thing for the people with training.

It’s not, Hey, get me my results. It’s, I’ve put a lot of investment into this, because, you know, I’ve already invested the money. But now I’m here to invest the time and the work to get this thing done. I think that’s the disconnect people have. And in the strength and conditioning industry, I think it is a little bit of the none of us make any money from the start. So we’re looking for cheaper things. And then people have just started to go that route. So the more people continue to feed that at the bottom level, the more coaches keep jumping into it. And if all of a sudden you get somebody who’s a pretty good name coach who’s running a program that’s super cheap, then you’ve got all the coaches like, Well, this guy only charges 300 bucks for his workshops. And these dicks over here, charge 1500. So who do they think they are? And that continues, you know, people are in the race to the bottom when it comes to pricing. And that just brings everything down?

Brett Bartholomew 16:57

Yeah, it is an interesting point, right. And I think people when you talk about just understanding value, and it’s something that we continue to harp on in here, because a big goal of mine is to try to,, get strength and conditioning coaches to understand a little bit more about why we struggle with the things that we do. A lot of it has to do with our mindset and the way that you know, we behave and the things that we communicate subconsciously, unconsciously to the outside world based on that stuff. And when you’re constantly, you know, shouting, hey, we’ll do this. And we’re not worried about what you get paid. And we want this and we want just like this expectation, right? The way they communicate, I’ve talked about it a lot, you put it perfectly, it’s a it’s a race to the bottom.

And I think the key thing that people have to understand is like what you said you don’t want and not everybody needs to be your audience. I think that was a big growth point for me when I quit trying to please everybody initially getting on social media, I’m like, I’m not gonna allow anybody and I was worried about, what certain gatekeepers in the industry would think. And then I realized, like, I’m not really doing it for them, and similarly, it sounds like what you guys are doing, whether it’s what you put out with Coach PJ and what you’re doing with XPT now, and, and all these other things. Part of that is just knowing your market and being okay, like I know, I am really okay with a person that says hey, I’m not gonna buy your course or I’m not going to do this. I just want you to answer my question over DM,

At the end of the day, like I’m okay losing that person as a quote unquote follower, because that’s a person that’s never going to want to dive deeper. Because, you get it all the time. Right. And I this is one of the things that I really loved about following you and I still do is you would do these Q and A’s and instead of trying to oversimplify things, just to give somebody an answer, you weren’t scared to say, hey, like, man, you’re asking some pretty complex questions about breathing here. Like, this is beyond the scope of a quick kind of q&a. It reminds a yesterday I got a DM from somebody and it’s well intentioned, but they’re asking like, hey, what do I do if this guy’s got this Shin angle when he’s sprinting? And he’s got this issue, and he hadn’t sent a video or picture and I just said, Hey, brother, you know, I’d love to help but like, there are so many things that go into sprint mechanics and hence be like, I can’t answer this over a DM.

Now, if you want to chat about it, let’s set up a call. And 99% of people won’t ever set up a call. And you can take that one or two ways, like oh, like, they don’t really, value this or they don’t view me as an expert, or you can say like, no, just a lot of people don’t want to put in the work to be an expert at a higher level, they kind of want that microwave answer. And you look at the other side of the equation, you have what are called like Veblen goods, right? These are like luxury goods for which the quantity demand increases as the price increases in like, these are those things like $700 bags that people buy, right or a pair of $1,000 shoes or, I have a friend that’s a big sneaker head. And so I remember he was trying to find the Red October Yeezys. And it’s like a contradiction,

PJ Nestler 19:49

That’s all the stuff that I buy.

Brett Bartholomew 19:51

Yeah, right. It’s a contradiction of this like law of demand. So it’s like, you’ll see strength coaches who will spend like Gs on something, or they don’t want to spend anything at all. And they don’t realize that there’s this other end, if they are spending 10 G’s, they are kind of buying them the voodoo stuff. And it’s almost kind of, it’s just a tricky thing. And so the blowback is always interesting because you put nothing out, you don’t share, you put something out, it’s too expensive. And then it’s not cheap enough.

And let’s talk about the things that you guys are discussing more at XPT and the things that you lead. Because talk about like value added. I thought that this was something unique about what you guys are doing, you could have just as easily hopped into the market about, hey, we’re going to teach you how to do this exercise. I’m going to teach you how to do that. But you guys are teaching really in depth information and application around things like breathing and resilience. Where did this come from? Where did all the focus on breathing come from? Why did you think there was a market for this? How has it helped people just go deep on this?

PJ Nestler 20:52

Yeah, the thing I love about XPT is it was all organically created. It was not like, let’s create a business and see how we can make money. It was literally LAIRD HAMILTON in his backyard saying, I want to improve my performance and surfing and I want to be a better human. So how can I do that? And he just was seeking out friends and experts. And you know, you had guys like Kelly Starr read and Wim Hof. And all of these people who would come over and train in his backyard. And the whole process was just about let’s explore, let’s do some things. For us. It was never, let’s try to create something for other people. It was just like, hey, I mean, Laird is such a curious person. As you know, you’ve met him, he’s just, he’s nonstop curious about things that he can continue to do and ways he can make things better.

And so when he started doing all these things, he kind of put it together in a little bit of a system that he did, and him and his group of friends did. And then this group of friends just kept growing and growing. And people were like, Man, this stuff is so amazing. and this is more than just a workout. This isn’t fitness, this is really changing a lot of areas of my life. So eventually, after they had this group of people doing this stuff for five years, one of Gabby’s close friends, Jen said, we’ve got to invite other people, we have to share this with more people than just the 20 people come to your backyard three days a week. So that’s when they started running these little retreats. And the retreats were just like, it wasn’t really put together into a system and framework. It was just like, hey, let’s just share this stuff with people.

And when people started coming to these events, who hadn’t been doing this for five years, who weren’t in Laird’s inner circle, people would leave these two and a half day events and say, Man, this is amazing. This stuff changed my life. You know, I started doing that breathing, when I got home. And it affected this, this this area, and the more anecdotal evidence started building up, they were like, there’s a lot more to what we’re doing here than I think we even really understood. And that’s where they started saying like, and obviously Laird loves research. He reads books, he reads research all the time. So he knew that there was strong implications for people’s health and performance. That’s why started doing a lot of this stuff.

But then they saw that that was an opportunity where we could start sharing this with more people. And that was the goal. They had people coming to these retreats and Larid and Gabby said, we want to continue to help people, we only run six of these retreats a year with about 25 to 30 people. So we’re maxed out a couple 100 people a year we can impact. But a lot of these people then go home to New York and say, How do I implement the lessons I learned in Hawaii into my life in New York, because I don’t have a 12 foot pool in my backyard, and the breath coach and all of these things. So that’s really what we aim to do was dig deep into these things that can really help people and share with them smaller tips and tools, so we can continue to scale that out and have a bigger impact. And that was what they said the goal was when they hired me was we want to help have an impact across a much larger scale. We believe these methodologies can help people.

We’ve seen it with 1000s of people who’ve come through anecdotally. And we believe that this stuff can have a bigger impact. And when I started diving into especially the breathing, originally, the breathing and the mindset pieces of what they teach. For me, it was such a missing link, because I was always so in depth into elite human performance. And really, it was all athletes. So I was looking at, you know, maximizing speed for an NFL Combine athlete. And that stuff was really cool and awesome and really fun to learn and to share with people. But the challenge I always had with myself was when I started teaching this to coaches and sharing, there was always something in the back of my mind was like, there’s really not that many coaches out there who are ever going to train an athlete for the NFL Combine.

So it’s cool to teach this stuff. But I always was limited in the impact I could have because it just wasn’t relevant to 99% of the population and even 99% of the training population strength and conditioning. So when I started finding how this breed Think could impact elite athletes, and elite military and yoga instructors and my mom and everybody in between. That’s when I was like, Man, this stuff is really powerful. And if we can just communicate it, and one of the things I found was, a lot of what we were doing is already out there being taught. It’s just being taught in a different way. It’s a lot of it’s being taught in yoga, but not in the right in the same way. And guys like us who are strength and conditioning, science, performance minded people, when we’re approached by the kind of hippie Yogi who’s like, oh, it’s about meditation and breathing, and you want to lay down in flow and be conscious, or like, and now we don’t,

Brett Bartholomew 25:41

I’d say, get the hell out of here

PJ Nestler 25:43

Exactly, exactly. And that’s what I said, five years ago, when I had a friend who started trying to teach me some of this breathing stuff. I was like, Okay, I’ll take that one piece that makes sense for my athletes. And the rest of that is kind of hit the fufu type stuff. And what I realized was a lot of the lessons he was trying to teach me were really, really good. It was just the delivery platform didn’t connect with who I was as a performance coach. So that was something that I hope to do is like, how can we bring this really powerful stuff to help people improve their lives? How can we bring this to the type A performance type people, whether that’s executives, or you know, science based kind of coaches, how can we bring this stuff and package it in a platform that connects with them, and that they understand and that’s what I think XPT has done really, really well. And that’s why I’m so excited to share the stuff that we do.

Brett Bartholomew 26:36

Yeah, but PJ, alright, slowing down a minute. All right, one, we got to go back because we want to make sure that people know who Laird is like Laird, Hamilton, Gabby, all these things. And then two, for the people out there, I mean, like, let’s say, let’s be honest, there are a lot of Neo files out there, right, people that are just obsessed with novelty. And this is where I think a lot of the blowback for education in our space comes from and even entrepreneurship in our space is people just think that anybody that’s an entrepreneur, as you mentioned, is peddling shit. Now, let’s be honest, let’s say somebody goes out, and they have no idea who Laird is they have no idea who Gabby is, they have no idea who you are no idea who anybody involved with the XPT team is, and they see you Crazy bastards in a pool.

Because I want to make sure all the listeners understand like what’s going on these places you guys are doing workouts in and like, ideally, a super deep pool or a fairly deep pool deeper than average. And I’ll let you discuss the details in a minute. But I’m just gonna set this up. And you’re doing exercises called the ammo box, and you’re going underwater and trying to do lizard crawls with dumbbells in your hand down and back. And then you’ve got something called cell phone. And we’re now you’re swimming on your side holding a dumbbell up and you got some crazy asshole swimming with a 20 plus kilo weight vest on and then other people are learning how to free dive and then you’re purposely teaching yourself how to hyperventilate, and there’s all this shit going on.

And they think, are you kidding me? Like this is just you’re going to tell me that this makes a difference? What do you say to those people? I mean, what are they not seeing and like without them having the chance to go through it? And I went through it right? Like I came out there and like I was a lifeguard and I feel confident in the water. But when people were like, Hey, you’re gonna do this and you’re gonna be upside down and hold your breath. And then you’re gonna hyperventilate, do 40 Push ups, I’m like, Alright, this is interesting. But what do you say to those people that look at it and just think it’s a gong show? And they don’t really get it? What is it really teaching them that they’re missing?

PJ Nestler 28:39

Yeah, I always say, a lot of coaches come to us and ask, what are the physiological benefits of the pool training or the ice bath? It’s one of the most common questions I get. And honestly, that’s what I first looked for when I got involved with X PT, because that’s my mindset. I’m a science based guy. Okay. Yeah, that stuff looks kind of cool. But how is this actually gonna improve the performance of my UFC fighters that I trained because I was still training handful of guys when I joined XPT. And one thing I found digging through the research is there’s actually a pretty good amount of physiological benefits to the movements. But I always tell people, if you come here, only looking for that you’re severely missing the point.

And that’s the tough part about it is making sure people experience it so they can understand the bigger picture, but, it’s kind of like relating it to yoga, you go to yoga because you have tight hamstrings. And that’s all you get out of it is thinking yoga is for stretching, you’re really missing the point of yoga. But I think the difficult part is people have to be at the right point in their lives to understand what this next level of consciousness is. And the biggest thing I think and something that I’ve seen carry over to my UFC athletes, to myself personally and even over with the military people we work with and then everybody in between. Is this psychology side of what we do, what we’re trying to work on certain ends of the performance spectrum, where we’re exposing people to different types of stress that they don’t normally face.

And in doing so we’re forcing them to really, we’re really breaking them down psychologically, and forcing them to deal with some shit, some real fear, stress, anxiety, and then be able to overcome those things. And that’s one of the things that I think transcends from the pool to the ice bath to the breath work. And everything in between is the psychology element of it. And as we know, when it comes to elite performance, that is the number one factor in all other things, I could work on the technical skills, the tactical skills, the physical traits, I could make you strong, and you could squat a ton of weight. If you don’t have the psychological component locked in, if you don’t have a, what they call a Champions mindset. Those are the people who we see who can dominate on the practice field and can’t put it together on fight night work, or on game day.

And that’s one of the things that I’ve realized with XPT that we are actually able to train and something I neglected early on until I started doing it a lot with athletes and realizing that it was putting people in these situations where they had to deal with extreme stressors, and then giving them the tools to get past these things. And that’s where it becomes irrelevant of the physical thing they’re doing it, for example, I’m going to do a workshop specifically with a handful of NHL players, and it’s over the entire purpose of the workshop is they want to work on their mindset, they want to work on staying calm under stress. And using these kinds of tools. And one of the things that I think is really cool is let’s use UFC fighters as an example, to get those guys to a point where they think I can’t do this, it really doesn’t exist in most training, these guys go train against the best fighters in the world for two straight hours and fight against them twice a day.

So there’s not many things that they run into in life where they’re like, Oh, I can’t do this. And they’re overwhelmed with fear, and anxiety, and all of those feelings that might come up on fight night as they’re walking out to the cage, all of those negative thoughts. But when you put people in the pool, that stuff comes up really quickly. And it’s a safe environment, because the only way to get people to that point is to break them down so hard physically, that it’s really just not worth the cost. So if I took you to the beach, and I just ran you into the ground, like Navy SEAL style boot camp training, for three straight days, you’d probably and sleep deprived you get to that point, but at what cost to you physically. Whereas we can do that stuff and a lot of the methods that we use, and then we can give you some of the psychological tools to overcome these stressful events, this anxiety, these fear that’s going to come up, and then allow you to practice that and continue with that.

Brett Bartholomew 32:56

Like, what are like for people that are listening? And they’re hearing you say that, like, what are those tools, you know, because I want them to understand it and, having having dealt with fighters myself and understanding aspects of anxiety and all those things if somebody’s listening right now. And they’re like, right, this guy cool. Like, again, they’re running these events. And it sounds like he’s going and working with some teams. By the way, I’m sure those teams don’t complain about price. But it works either one of two ways, right teams, you’re like, Hey, man, you get a lot of credibility, doing it for free, or they actually respect it, because they’re a part of the organization and pay you what you’re worth. But what are these tools? When you’re saying like we teach, we give people the tools to deal with it? Can you can you rattle off a few?

PJ Nestler 33:35

Yeah,one of the biggest ones is breathing. Giving people, the breath is one of the biggest remote controls you can use to your brain and your nervous system. So not only because it’s hardwired into your physiology, there’s actually specific breathing techniques you can use that have physiological responses and psychological responses by focusing your mind on the breath, and eliminating, by simply focusing the mind on the breath. That’s why so many meditations do that. It takes your mind off of these things that are creating the psychological stress. And that’s one of the big things we try to teach people is most of the stress we encounter today is psychological. We’re not constantly running from danger and chasing down prey. All of the daily stressors we face are psychological

But they have physiological responses in the body to that stress, just like if I was, running away from danger. So we give people these breathing tools where they can down regulate those physiological responses, and they can anchor their mind onto something other than whatever’s creating that fear and stress and anxiety. So that’s one of the biggest ones that we teach. And there’s a handful of different small little tactics that we use, but they’re all based on a handful of different psychological and physiological triggers that the breath can create. And then the other ones are mindfulness tools like visuals sation affirmations, and positive self talk. And those are three of the most powerful that I found, really in working with elite operators, people who are at the highest level of sport and in the military and finding, not only through the research, but as we all know, there’s a lot of research that doesn’t actually transfer over into practical application.

So when I started digging through all this research, and then talking to people at the highest levels, dealing with the highest levels of stress in the real world, like military, I started realizing that there’s a lot of these things people do, sometimes they don’t they do them without even really being taught them or putting a word to them. But they’re all doing things. Yeah, absolutely. So those are some of the tools we use in the pool where we can’t use your breath, because you’re not breathing, then we’re using things like affirmations in order to control the mind, positive self talk or just controlling your self talk. Some people can actually use negative self talk as a motivator, but we focus more on positive self talk. Because we understand that when fear and anxiety take over the mind, it’s a snowball effect of negative thought, your brain goes into this negative cascade, because your body’s hardwired to keep you alive. Every system in your body

Brett Bartholomew 36:16

Just like writing things on the wall, like pain is weakness leaving the body that’s not enough.

PJ Nestler 36:21

No, no, unfortunately, those little motivational quotes don’t go very far. And that’s something we work with people as well as just trying to, we continue to put them in these situations and tell them, hey, whatever the affirmation is, whatever the thought is, that helps you. Some people need something that’s like makes them feel tough and strong, like, I’m a warrior, I can accomplish anything, blah, blah, blah. And then some people is just reinforcing, staying calm for me in the pool, it’s just saying, You’re doing fine, you just stay relaxed, you’ve got plenty of air, you’ve got plenty of oxygen, you’re fine, just focus on one more stroke. And that’s the next thing we teach people how to shrink down the goal. Because the anxiety comes in when you, you know how to be present, I should say, when you’re in the pool, as you know, if I say I want you to swim there, and back with this weight without breathing, when you get halfway there, you’re like, holy shit, there’s no way I’m going to turn around, make it all the way back.

And people give up when they get halfway to the wall. But if you focus on okay, just get two more strokes, or just get to the wall, just get to the wall and push off. When you shrink that obstacle down, we shrink that goal down, then people find that they can overcome these things. And again, this is the kind of stuff that we’re taught all the time in goal setting and in all of the business books we read and the self help stuff. But it never really comes to something where we can practice it. So you know, we don’t implement it into high stress situations, so it doesn’t transfer over. And then we get in a high stress situation. And we don’t have the tools there. We think we do because we’ve read all the books, but we’ve never practiced them in gradually increasing stressful situations.

So those are some of the tools that we teach people that transcend way outside of the pool training the ice bath, I always tell people when they come to our experiences, if you never get into a pool and never get into an ice bath again, when you leave here, hopefully you leave here with some of these tools that will transcend it’ll take you into, for me personally dealing with being in an MRI machine because I’m extremely claustrophobic or an airplane, which luckily I had the tools. When I joined XPTI learned a lot of these tools because I now fly twice a week, and I hated flying. And I had borderline panic attacks 30% of the time I flew. So luckily I had some of these tools that transcend it outside of the pool and the ice bath and allowed me to have control and these other air higher stress areas in my life. And that’s really where this stuff I think has such an impact for people. And that’s why it can be applied on such a big spectrum.

Brett Bartholomew 38:57

Yeah, and I wish I would have known that about you earlier, by the way, because I would have mess with you a whole lot more on the flying and pretty much all those things. Now, here’s an important question. I hope we haven’t lost people, to this point. What type of individuals have you found gravitate to these experiences meaning strength coaches, physical therapists, folks in the corporate setting? I know it’s been a wide swath, but by and large, what are one of them, the majority of the attendees and the people who also not have just come, but are the most open minded about it? Do you find that there’s a demographic or an archetype that comes in and they’re just you notice that they’re more about exploring growth in these areas than others?

PJ Nestler 39:40

Yeah, the people who come to our experiences, it’s funny because if you did a specific demographic background, you’d see a wide variety but there’s one thing that a lot of them share. Most of them are go getters type A people, and most of them have driven the car to fast just too hard for too long, whether that’s physically, whether that’s in the workplace, they’ve realized that they’ve come to a point where they can’t just keep putting the pedal to the floor. And they need to learn other ways to continue moving forward. And most of them, it’s because they’ve gotten to a point at some point in their lives, whether they’ve worked themselves to death for the past 15 years, and they’re just not getting the results that they want. Maybe they’ve made a ton of money, but they’re like, this isn’t doing it for me, or they’ve been driving so hard in the gym, that they’ve been going high intensity workouts every single day and crushing their bodies, and then realizing that now, I’m 39, and none of my joints are functioning the way that they should, and everything hurts.

And that’s the thing that people always no matter what area they’re coming from, they’re always at some point in their lives, where they’re like, I need a shift, I need some sort of change, I need some sort of shifts, that that’s going to help me to continue to live the next half of my life or the next 30 years, better than I did the first 30 Because what got me here is not going to continue to get me there. And those are the people that are that come to learn what we do, I think because they’re still go getters, they’re still type A, they still I always say like our breath work is meditating for non meditators. Our ice baths, and our pool training is meditation and forced mindfulness and learning to be present for the non Yogi’s, because we’re putting you in these higher stress performance situations that people are attracted to.

But we’re not destroying your body in order to get there or so we’re giving you a lot of the same tools, but we just packaging it in a different way. And that’s the demographic of people that come to to a lot of our retreat experiences. And then on the other side, for our coaching certifications, it’s usually coaches and trainers who are again, looking for that next level, most of them have probably had experience training people. They’ve proved they’ve nailed down the programming and the exercise science principles. And they’ve realized that yeah, that gets people really good results. And after you’ve done that for five to 10 years, you’re like, this, isn’t it? This isn’t the only thing you know, yeah, I’m getting people fit and they’re gaining muscle and they’re feeling better. But there’s still something missing here, I still feel like I can have a bigger impact on these people’s lives. And there’s still areas that these people struggle with, and I’m trying to create a better human, not just a fitter person.

And a lot of those people then are start looking for what are some other ways we can have a bigger influence in people’s lives outside of the gym, and outside of the hour that I spend with them. And those are a lot of people who come to our courses as well looking for ways so people come in to experience and people come into the certifications are usually looking for the same thing. The biggest differences that people come and experience are usually looking more for themselves. The people coming to the courses are usually looking for themselves and being able to teach it and influence others.

Brett Bartholomew 43:04

So if I’m hearing you, right, there’s a type of, there’s a personality there’s common trends and personality type A the pushers everybody that wants to continue to drive these things home and just continue to excel, learn, learn, learn, go, go go. But you haven’t really seen vocation specific, you haven’t seen like ratios, where we tend to get more people from, let’s say, college strength and conditioning, or we tend to get a mix of people that own their own facility, or what physical therapists actually tend to make much more of our demographic again, I know you’ve seen a mix. But I think what I’m curious here is, again, it’s just I’m fascinated in the mindset of professional development within our field, right within performance in general. And I try to find, or I tend to find that there’s these trends.

I remember a clinic I went to recently, I mean, there was a coach that got up and he had been collegiate Strength Conditioning for about 15 years. And he said, Listen, I don’t do these things. Often, I don’t really believe in clinics, I don’t really believe in this. And that kind of took me aback because I got my start in both the private sector, but also collegiate strength and conditioning. And I think that’s one of the most special spaces there is in our field. But I also just have noticed that there are certain demographics that are a little bit more closer. There’s my buddy’s a physical therapist, and the type of education he said he tends to expose himself to, is pretty broad. And so just a friend and I were talking about that recently and we’re always worried, we’re always trying to figure out like, Is it our own bias as it were, what we’re seeing and that’s why I was curious as to what you’ve seen with with XPT because it is so different because it’s premium priced, because it requires so much engagement and people can’t just sit back and watch if you did see a vocational divide there at all but it doesn’t sound like you’ve seen a huge one or maybe I didn’t hear you correctly.

PJ Nestler 44:49

Yeah, it’s funny you mentioned that because I’d say the least represented community in the from the fitness spectrum we do we get a ton of Personal trainers, private sector performance people, physical therapists, doctors, military, we get a lot of that population. The population, I’d say as the least represented in our first group of about 200 Plus certified coaches is strength and conditioning. I think we’ve had less than five people that I can think of off the top my head who are working in a team based strength and conditioning setting, whether that’s high school, college or professional, I get a few people from like the professional ranks or collegiate who will reach out and want to talk about some things we’re doing. But in terms of actually attending the courses, that’s the least representative group, I think, in the fitness and performance space.

Brett Bartholomew 45:43

Yeah, I mean, I know when I went out there there, I don’t think there was anybody else. Any idea? Have you guys talked internally? Or have you thought about like why that is?

PJ Nestler 45:53

I think, personally, that it’s the same reason I turned away this stuff five years ago, because as a strength and conditioning coach, a lot of times we’re looking for the hard numbers of what’s going to improve my athletes vertical jump, what’s going to improve the actual measurables that I’m looking at, on the field, or in the gym. And I think a lot of times we as a population, because we’re so science and numbers based, we turn away anything that that’s not, that doesn’t have that validation doesn’t have like, here’s the hard data behind it, we’ve had 200 Plus athletes who have come through and we’ve improved their 40, yard dash and their vertical jump, and XY and Z. Most of what we have is I mean, we have tons of research behind the methods that we use. But those research studies are all based in kind of pulling what people are studying, and then creating our own protocols around those.

So nobody’s actually gone and taking the exact systems that we use, and then study them over the course of time. So because there’s not 200, peer reviewed studies based on exactly what we’re doing, a lot of people I think, just turn it away. And unfortunately, I’ve been in that population. So I know exactly how it is, you know, I was the guy who said, Yeah, but where’s the research behind it? I don’t care about your anecdotes, and that people feel better, because we know that. That’s also the mark of people who don’t really know what they’re doing, and they’re trying to sell you crap is like, well ask my guys how they feel. And I train a bunch of pros. And they all feel like this helps them. And I’m like, Well, yeah, I can convince anybody.

I mean, you send me a pro athlete, I’ll convince him what we’re doing helps him. And if he believes in it, he’ll go talk about it, regardless of if it helps his performance or not. So I think that’s the reason that a lot of those people turn away from it. And I think as soon as things become on the cutting edge, there’s always going to be that group of people who want the new thing, regardless of what it is there’s there’s always the people who the first people who jump on to whatever the newest thing is, but and they’re looking for the next fad and the next fad and the next fad, those early adopters of everything, but they’re usually the people who don’t have a good framework of understanding, like, the basic stuff works really, really well. The simple things in training work really well.

And for me, I’m always trying to communicate like, I’m not trying to say breathing should replace, training, strength training, or breathing should be, you know, pool training should replace your speed and agility training with your athletes. But when you have the new age, people who kind of jump in, it’s because they want to be non traditional. So they don’t do strength training. They’re against weight training. They’re against all of the traditional stuff, that conventional stuff, I should say. And I think when that population jumps into something, the conventional people are even more pushed away this they lean back on being the skeptics, and they, I mean, I get reached out to people on Instagram all the time, like, have you seen the research studies on ice baths, post training and how it actually blends to the inflammatory response and decrease the strength?

Like, yes, I’ve seen that as well as the 5000 plus other studies that we’ve reviewed, and understanding the context of these things is important. But that’s the performance guy who’s like, Oh, these people are stupid. All these Wim Hof people are stupid. I have a research study that shows ice baths, decreased strength. So I’m the smartest person and I’m gonna get out there and show everybody. And unfortunately, that’s just kind of a mindset I think a lot of people have. And I only say that and know that because I was that guy for a long time. I was.

Brett Bartholomew 49:26

I think you and I both were, but I think that’s also again, that’s the issue of when you look at the state of the field right now. It’s what also keeps us, it keeps us down, because what you have to be able to do is accept the world as it is. And you have to research a wide range of things and understand complexity rather than just things that are complicated, and for anybody, and that’s the trick about strength and conditioning research as you can find the closer you look at only one variable, the further away you get from understanding the entire answer. Because one bit like, performance doesn’t happen in a lab. Now, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be research.

But it’s amazing when people try to isolate a variable, and then they try to extrapolate that into like, well, like you said, with a cold plunge, like it depresses, markers of strength and this and that. Yeah, but what else is going on? Right, like? And does it only do that when these other variables are at play? Or when you’re in this controlled environment? Or what about these five other things like people just and that’s where it’s, I think strength coaches need a background in economics as well, because, you look at trends, right? You look at economic trends, like people are Fooled By Randomness all the time. And then they try to make concrete stats out of things that are so much deeper than they think they are.

And I think they also have to understand that the research in general is imperfect, like, for all the blowback on marketing and everything, don’t forget that there are people that make their living based on publishing research. And it’s not crazy to say that there have been people that have loved all kinds of research to try to make their work seem more significant. So you have to look at research with a critical eye as well. And but like you said, that’s where people think, Oh, well, now you’re denigrating research, no, but these are the kinds of arguments and the back and forth it just constantly keep the field from being able to cross over and, you mentioned Jen, Jen Widerstrom was on the show earlier.

And, she had talked to all it takes is one somebody in the performance community to really get out of the hopper and show the wider world like how we think and the level of thoughtfulness we put into things and, our true skills, and we can kind of get rid of some of these stereotypes that keep us from being more in control of our own future. But it’s hard when everybody’s fighting for one small little square footage of like, expertise land, right? Like, if something looks different, oh, PJ, must be selling medicinal whiskies. Right. That’s what’s gonna make people better like, man, it’s kind of like, you just you don’t have time to always discuss this. And I think, it’s always heartbreaking for me to hurt.

I mean, I went to a business conferences, summer, and they said the same thing, hey, we’ve never had a strength coach here before. And so when I hear strength coaches say, Hey, we’ve got to do more. And, we’re not in leadership positions within our organization. Well, it’s hard to do that when you isolate your perspective, so much and just want to get in these neverending arguments. So here’s the thing I want to jump off on is you said you five years ago, even with things some of this is BS, what is something right now that you think is BS that maybe you five years from now, may jump into? Like? Is there something now that you really look at? And you’re like, that doesn’t have to be that you think it’s BS, but you’re kind of looking at it with some hard skepticism? What is that thing for you now?

PJ Nestler 52:44

That’s a good question. I mean, I look at everything with hard skepticism. Unfortunately, I’m a natural skeptic. But I think this process has been and I think that’s a good thing. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being skeptical because it’s easy to be blindly led into the next thing. And I think that’s where a lot of strength conditioning coaches are turned off by it as we see the people just blindly following the newest thing. I can’t say there’s anything off the top of my head. I know the biggest thing for me that I’m always skeptical of is more on the nutrition side. Because it since it always seems like there’s something new that comes out in nutrition. That’s the newest

Brett Bartholomew 53:20

What about everybody jumping on CBD right now? What do you think of that?

PJ Nestler 53:23

Yeah, I mean, CBD, honestly, I’ve got a CBD roller, a pain free roll on cryo free CBD thing right here on my desk, and I’ve been using, but it’s got menthol in it, that makes me feel better for a little bit. You know, it’s basically icyhot. I can’t speak to any of those things. So I’d say I’m always naturally skeptical. And I try not to judge the things unless I actually have willing to take the time to research it and look into it and not just research it on research, because that’s one of the biggest things I’ve learned is, research is great. But you have to take a well rounded evidence based approach if you want to understand something.

So you’ve got to understand the research, not only what the benefits of research are, but also its limitations, then you’ve got to understand how people actually feel the actual values of people that are using it. And knowing that there’s a lot of limitations there. There’s a lot of confirmation bias there. But there’s also real anecdotal evidence there. And the domain experts, the coaches, and the doctors and the people who are doing this with people and how they’re, what their findings are, and again, a lot of limitations with confirmation bias, but also a lot of great anecdotal evidence. And if you can understand how those three things work together, then that’s what creates the best approach

Because a lot of times if we just wait for the research evidence, you’re always going to be five to 10 years behind the guy who is saying, Hey, I’ve been using this stuff with my athletes and I think it’s really working. And I always use the example of like the heavy sled pushes. If you looked at the research back when I was learning about speed training, anything Everybody’s gonna slow you down, because they were doing research on elite track athletes. And then all of a sudden, there’s more and more stuff coming out people, guys like Joe DeFranco, saying, Hey, I’ve been doing heavy sled pushes with my NFL Combine guys for 10 years, and they’re getting faster. I’m measuring hundreds of guys, and they’re getting faster. So I don’t know what you guys are talking about, but I’m doing this stuff. And it’s improving their speed.

And then now there’s all this legitimate research coming out showing that you can actually use heavier loads with resistance sprinting to improve sprint performance in especially in team sport athletes. So I always kind of use that as a thing, like, if you’ve neglected that stuff, because you just you just took the research, there was a guy who was getting away really good results with people for a long time. And then all of a sudden, people said, well, maybe we should start looking at this and researching it. So I’d say I’m naturally skeptical of that stuff. But usually what I do is I reach out to people who I think have a good evidence based approach.

I’ve got some friends in the nutrition space that I know, work with real people, read research, and get really good results. So then I can reach out and say, Hey, what do you think of this thing? Like, the research on it was kind of, hit or miss right now. But I’ve been doing it with a handful of this population, and I’m actually getting really good results with it. And that way I can kind of create my best approach. But I’d say I’m definitely naturally skeptical. But I tend to try to approach things with more of an open mind and not just excuse anything at face value.

Brett Bartholomew 56:30

Yeah, no, I think that’s it, here’s the thing that I tend to get, I’m like you I’m fairly, I think you have to be skeptical. I think nine out of 10 things are bullshit when people try to come up with some new training intervention or what have you. I think the thing that I’m skeptical on, and this doesn’t apply to some of our mutual friends, like Kelly, and folks like that, but I think people are starting to dive probably a little too deep into lala land with some of the mobility stuff. I think that there’s some tremendous love out there. And like I said, I love Kelly and I think the work that people like him are doing are great, but now I’m starting to see people try to do some crazy stuff with introducing load and compromise positions and saying that, this enhances mobility and and and some of it includes a bar on the back.

And listen, man, I mean, like, it’s funny, right? Like, when you look at mobility, like there’s a degree where you’re only able to make so much change, because people have, certain anatomical truths, right, like bony landmarks, different aspects of their anthropometry that, all the soft tissue work, all the distraction work, all this stuff in the world, is only going to be held to a certain point. But now it looks like we the pendulum is swinging farther. And this is very small outliers. But when I see people, like let’s let’s be honest, lifting weights through a full range of motion, full range of motion, great mobility, again, the stuff that Kelly and people like Kelly are doing, I think that’s great, like being able to teach people aspects of self care, my friend, Danny Matej, love it.

But when I started seeing people, like try to get people to rotate and twist and do things with bars on their back, like it becomes a little bit like, alright, like, I’m open to it. And I want to be wrong. But that stuff I do need to see a little bit more research on, you know, that stuff that I do need to, especially if we’re sharing it on social media and things like that, I need to like because like the average person, there’s going to be people like yourself and those like you out there that are going to look at something and they’ll know how to implement it responsibly. But there’s a lot of people that are still 13 year old Billy Suzy and Sally in the video game chair that are casual worker routers, and they’re going to be like, oh, I want to put this bar on my back and do this and that.

It’s like, you gotta be really careful with what you’re saying to people, and even more careful what you’re showing. And so that’s the thing that I like, I guess what I’m saying is like, my answer is it’s not one thing to me, it’s when one thing gets taken so far to the end of the spectrum that you’re like, Alright, now it’s beyond self empowerment. And now you’re like telling people to do shit well beyond the scope of what they probably don’t understand and introducing load to it. That’s where it gets crazy to me. Does that make sense? What I’m saying there. And I’m just want to clear up I’m not talking about somebody doing a goblet squat holding the bottom and doing a praying God like all about that. I’m talking about like axial loading tight movements that involve kind of unique postures that most people probably can’t manage to begin with. And now adding rotation. And again, I hope I’m wrong.

That’s a big thing, right PJ? I think you and I share this in common because we talked about it. I’m at a point in my life where like I was certain things like I’m totally okay being wrong, because that means sweet. Like, there’s something here I really need to dive into and learn more about like, where in the past I’d be like, you kind of get defensive about that because you feel like you almost have to take sides and I think that’s people in general. So there’s this book called crystallizing public opinion where it’s like, people feel like they always have to wrestle for the hero or the victory of good over evil. But yeah, I just have a hard time feeling like, they’re become spectrums. And when it gets way too far on one end, with very little context or support I get worried, what were you gonna say? I’m sorry, I went on for there.

PJ Nestler 1:00:20

No, I was completely gonna agree with you. And that’s a conversation I’ve had a lot recently I think people not understanding context. I think we as coaches certainly want to look at everything, we want to dig dig deep, we want to find those little esoteric things that might improve performance at the, the upper, you know, 2% of the population or guys who are with people who are very progressive in their training. But I think we were one of the things you said that was really important is we’ve got to be careful with the messaging and how it gets out there. There are a lot of people on that set side that I’ve actually had disagreements with. And not because I disagree with what they’re saying, and in theory, but the thought process that they’re sharing is like, we need to stop putting people in a box of perfect movement.

And you know, I have a whole video series that I put out on my YouTube channel called you’re doing it wrong. And it was really based on I go to the gym, I see tons of people doing these exercises. And here’s some really common mistakes that I find I’ve trained 1000s of people in my life. These are common things that I see a lot of people do incorrectly. And here’s the the ideal form for most people. And that was the information I’m trying to put out there is who’s the general consumer that’s walking into the gym, that has no idea how to do a Bulgarian split squat, and doesn’t need to understand that there’s 27 Different contexts as to where you can put the weight on your foot and how what your shin angle can be based on the improvements but like, they just need to understand that they shouldn’t have their back completely arch and their pelvis tilted forward and, have have this huge split, or whatever it is.

So if you can find these kinds of simple things, how can I simply communicate that with people, and we’ll just help 95% of the people who are out there going to the gym. And that was my thought process on creating this whole video series in the first place. And then you have people who want to argue that there is no perfect movement, and really is with the right prerequisites of mobility and strength. You can take a barbell, and you can do a curtsy lunge, and then you can take 250 pounds, and laterally then touch the barbell to the ground and come back up. And actually, there’s these people in history who used to do this stuff. And I’m like, Yeah, I don’t disagree that you’re probably correct. There’s 1%. And there’s less than 1% of the population who has the requisite strength, mobility, and has taken the time to develop the capacity to do those things.

But when you put that message out there to people on Instagram, you have to be careful because most people don’t understand the context. And that 14 year old kid who sees that and sees you and you’re big and jacked and doing all these things, he’s going to think like, oh, maybe I should go try that because I want to develop that strength or whatever. But they haven’t put in 10 years to get to that point. They don’t know what those prerequisites are. So you just have to be careful with your messaging. And I think I don’t disagree with what the message is. I just think you have to understand when you’re putting things out there, you’ve got to understand who you’re speaking to. And you’ve got to understand what the population is it’s going to be taking this information and if they, I’ll give an example on on our spectrum when it comes to breathing.

I love the Wim Hof Method, I think it’s a great thing. I think it gets people interested in breathwork, it gets people interested in ice baths. It’s extreme, it’s on the extreme end of the spectrum, it’s like a I always say that it’s like doing a back squat. It’s a great exercise once you’re ready for it. But it’s not the first thing that I do with most people because 95% of people who come into the gym are not ready for a back squat. They don’t have the requisite mobility and strength and body control to do a loaded a really good loaded back squat. So we start off with goblet squats and other movements and front squats and split squats and all these things with the hopes of I’m going to develop you to be such a well rounded, versatile person that we can back squat.

But you’re just not there yet. And that’s the thing when it comes to like stuff like the Wim Hof Method is there’s not much context out there for people. It’s just kind of like, here’s what it is go do it. But it is extreme. It’s extreme breathing. It’s extreme breath holding, we don’t understand the contraindications and the limitations. Right now. I’ve seen some in practice anecdotally when we do some of these extreme stuff with people and you know a 33 degree ice bath is extreme. So we’re gonna see contraindications that if you start taking

Brett Bartholomew 1:04:44

650 pounds on your back right but we know that that has been you do it well you know and that’s a funny thing right? Like that’s where I don’t understand the disconnect like people will go nuts over certain extreme methods now is like you said it’s got to be context rich, and that’s where that kind of quote comes to mind where it’s you know, and I love it. It’s in Sicario too, he says, You’re asking me how a watch works for now just keep an eye on the time. And you know, like, you’ve got to have context of what’s going on here. But when people are like, God, I don’t know about this, you’re like dog, you tell people that deadlift twice or body weight, you know. And for some people, that’s just as crazy. Maybe not for us as strength coaches, because we have, you know, the knowledge app, but how that can be done safely, and how it can be progressed.

But think about telling the average person I mean, when I went to your workshop, and I was doing some of the improv stuff with guys, you know, there were people that had probably hadn’t lifted that kind of weight their entire life. I mean, could you imagine me going up to them being like, Okay, guys, now we’re gonna deadlift, two times your body weight? And of course, nobody would do it just like that. But the metaphor and the analogy, and the point is, is that like, you’ve got to take into context of like, how crazy is it really compared to the other thing you’re asking people to do? And why wouldn’t you at least just be open minded enough to do it, right? Like, even if it is n equals one, a great, go get that experience, like, you know, go get that experience, so that at least you can speak to it? Because right now, there’s way too many people speaking to ship that they’ve never even tried?

PJ Nestler 1:06:05

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I just think that messaging can be dangerous. And you just need to keep that in mind when you I think when you when you’re putting information out there, and you’re you’re positioning yourself as an expert, regardless of if you’re, you say you’re doing that or not, if you’re regularly putting information out publicly, then you’re positioning yourself as an information expert. That’s at least how people are going to perceive you. I think you just have to be careful with your messaging unless you don’t give a shit. But you have to know you can’t just put the blinders on and try to be ignorant be like, No, I’m just helping everybody like no, you’re most likely, nine out of 10, people who are watching what you’re doing and going to try to implement it are going to be worse off than they started. Because they’re not ready for the things you’re putting out. And if you’re willing to accept that, just know that that’s what you’re doing and accepted

Brett Bartholomew 1:06:55

I mean, coaching comes down to communication and context. And I’m reminded about who my audience is almost every time I do an Instagram Live. And this is why I think social media can be such a valuable tool for like, coaches remembering who the audience is, and not getting too ahead of themselves, ever, you know, I’ll do an Instagram Live. And I’m flooded with questions like, what’s the right way to squat? What supplements should I take what? And I sit there and I like, I look at that. And I’m reminded like, oh, like, this is why I shouldn’t get too cute with like, it’s a constant reminder of why you should not get you don’t want to dumb down your content. But you also don’t, you shouldn’t go off the deep end. And you can’t make assumptions of who’s following you. Because a large percentage of those people that are viewing those things and all that, like they do not have the relevant context.

And again, that’s kind of why I think I you know, I gave the answer. I did what, right now I look at it, I’m like, you know, and there’s a lot of people that will react to this and be like, Oh, are you talking about so and so. So I’m talking about like whoever the shoe fits, like if you don’t put context what you do and like you what PJ said, you’re positioning yourself as an expert, which whether you think you are or not if you’re sharing on a regular basis, like perception is reality and people are gonna think Oh, that guy’s an expert. You got to be a lifelong learner but that comes from also knowing your audience PJ. If people want to learn more about XPT if they want to come to an experience if they want to learn more about you now you mentioned it and guys, I will say this PJ’s YouTube is awesome. PJ is super responsible with what he puts out. He never positions himself as somebody that like hey, this is the only way to do it. You know, if people want to come across any of your stuff and see more of you how can they do that? How can they sign up for XPT? What do they need to do?

PJ Nestler 1:08:38

Yeah, everything XPT can be found at xptlife.com. You know, we have our social media everything XPT is XPT life. So on Instagram, on Facebook on whatever the platforms are YouTube, and then me personally I have I really just put most of my content on Instagram. Now, I don’t do much on my YouTube because I create the majority of the content for XPT so that’s a bulk of what I’m doing but I have on my Instagram is just @coachpjnestler. So I put a lot of informational content out there but everything X T related certifications, all that we’ve we’ve got online breathing certifications out now. And we’ve got our experiences and our courses and everything all that can be found on xptlife.com.

Brett Bartholomew 1:08:39

Perfect. And as always, guys, I’ll put that in the show notes. So make sure to go there and check out there’s tons of discount codes down there as well for all different kinds of things. So check that out the podcast, PJ. I feel like we’ve only kind of gotten into, I don’t know, this surface of all this stuff I want to talk about with you, you know, you’re somebody that I am really grateful you’re in the field because I feel like at a time where I was lonely in terms of you know, just starting to realize that there’s nothing wrong with being an entrepreneur and a strength coach and an educator. You know, cuz you know, like a lot of that stuff sometimes in our field people are just it’s an old school feel, and they feel like any kind of evolution is wrong. But you know, my friendship with you has just kind of reinforced like,

No, we’re doing the right thing. And we’re making a difference. And we’re continuing to learn and at least put ourselves out there, even if we are wrong. Like, we’re the guys in the arena. And there’s a lot of people out there like us. And I think there’s a lot of folks out there that want to do these things. And is there any parting words of like encouragement of somebody that maybe as a strength coach that’s listening that wants to put themselves out there more, but just is scared of the blowback and scared of the criticism is scared to take that first step? Is there any kind of parting words of advice there?

PJ Nestler 1:10:35

Yeah, I think the big thing that somebody told me early on is just think about if you can help one person, you know, people are afraid to put themselves out there because they’re afraid of what the other experts are going to say, but focus on the impact you’re going to have. If whatever information you have can help one person or you believe they can, then fuck what everybody else says and just do it. And what the worst thing that will happen is, you’ll learn and that’s what I learned a lot was started putting myself out there and there was shit that I didn’t know very well. And I thought I did. And I put it out. And I actually learned a bunch from other people saying, Hey, have you looked into this or looked into that? So, you know, most people, nine out of 10 people just don’t have the guts to put themselves out there. But everybody has the guts to try to tear everyone else down. So as soon as you have the guts to do it, you’re already going to take five steps ahead of everybody else.

Brett Bartholomew 1:11:26

Love it, man. That’s perfect advice. Well, thanks again, PJ for coming on. I can’t I can’t thank you enough. And I know everybody will get a lot of value out of this.

PJ Nestler 1:11:33

Yeah. Thanks, buddy. Great chatting with you.

Brett Bartholomew 1:11:35

Yep, absolutely.

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