In Art Of Coaching Podcast

On Episode 36 of The Art Of Coaching Podcast I am joined by my friend Andy McCloy of Body Creations Sport Performance & Fitness. Andy’s facility provides a wide range of Strength Training and Performance Enhancement services to the Greater Huntsville, AL area. Andy McCloy has worked with literally hundreds of athletes ranging from middle and high school to the professional levels, including the NFL and Arena Football Leagues.

Topics include:

  • Andy’s beginnings and the size necessary to open a gym
  • Replicating his older space to his new space and how that affects the gym’s energy
  • How Andy broke into the industry of Strength and Conditioning
  • Marketing yourself, professional development, and consistent messaging
  • Andy’s take on storytelling and being relatable
  • The impact of social comparison on young athletes
  • Application of learning and avoiding confirmation bias
  • What Andy thinks about people not utilizing the mass of knowledge and information that is already out there
  • Are you doing things because the athlete needs it, or because you want to see it?
  • Coaches searching for social approval
  • How has owning a business impacted other parts of Andy’s life?
  • Relationship building as a superpower
  • Andy’s recommendations on business planning

Reach out to Coach Andy:

Instagram: @andymccloy_bci

This information is kept free by our partnership with Momentous. To learn more about Momentous and what they do to help our community go to As part of the Art of Coaching audience, you can receive $20 off your 1st order of Momentous by using code BRETT20 at checkout. (Minimum purchase amount of $50).


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Brett Bartholomew  0:01  

All right, everybody, I have an exciting update for you. This is something that I’ve been waiting to announce for a while. And we’re doing this in a pop up format right now, these aren’t going to be officially launched and available to everybody until 2020. But if you’re listening to the podcast and you happen act on this quickly, we are doing 10 spots for a pop up of the Art of Coaching Apprenticeship. The art of coaching. Apprenticeship is my newest, really platform guys. It’s an interactive two day event focused completely on social skill development, in today’s coaches and leaders. Now this is the first true resource of its kind that goes way beyond what to coach because we know there’s a lot of that within the field, the technical stuff, the X’s and O’s, and more on the, technical side of how to coach we are doing a very unique event on November 2nd, and 3rd in Madison, Alabama, I am going to have all of the details linked below. Again, we’re only taking 10 people, this is discounted $200 below the price that it’s going to be in 2020. And beyond. Again, if you’re wondering what we’re going to talk about, guys, this is all stuff that goes way deeper than my courses, then my book, we’re covering anything on the social side of coaching, so whether that’s cueing whether that’s improving engagement, and we’re not just doing this through the lectures, because frankly, that’s boring. We’re doing lectures, video breakdowns, assessments, evaluations, small group breakouts, you’re rotating groups, you’re never going to be with the same people every day. There’s a lot of unique discussions. It’s a lot of fun. So again, if you want to check this out, the link in the Eventbrite link is below. You can also go to And check out the apprenticeship tab, under mentoring. So again, pop up event, it’s one of three we’re gonna do in a very exclusive format this year. We’re not launching it formally until next year, so if you’re in the area and even if you’re not get your ass to it, and make sure you check it out The Art of coaching apprenticeship pop up, November 2nd, and 3rd, check it out. Now, now on with the episode.


Welcome to the Art of coaching podcast, a show aimed at getting to the core of what it takes to change attitudes, behaviors and outcomes in the weight room, boardroom classroom and everywhere in between. I’m your host, Brett Bartholomew, I’m a performance coach, keynote speaker, and the author of the book conscious coaching. But most importantly, I’m a lifelong student interested in all aspects of human behavior, and communication. I want to thank you for joining me. And now let’s dive into today’s episode.


All right, I’m here with Andy McCloy. Andy a good friend of mine. He’s been somebody I’ve been trying to chase down for a long ass time to get on this episode. And in the podcast in general. And Andy, we’re going to talk about why sometimes you’re a little bit of a recluse my man because I know that you have so much to share with people but there’s been times where you just feel like nah, that’s not me. It’s not really my thing. Andy, I want you you know, aside from owning BCI, and really having a foothold and what’s unique to you have a foothold and executive athlete market, the elite athlete market, the high school market, you really have some things really streamlined in this quiet but super potent way. Aside from coaching and owning your own facility. Can you give a little background and insight as to what you do, man?


Andy McCloy  3:35  

Yeah, I mean, I’m a father. First. I’m a husband. I mean, those are kind of my, two main jobs these days, and I’m a son. So that’s kind of how I identify myself these days. But my role really here at the gym is running the business. I mean, that’s, where I’m at. Now, over the past couple of years, I’ve kind of removed myself from a lot of the coaching unless I’m choosing to work with specific athletes, but it’s to manage the business staying on top of the vision, making sure that our core values get passed down not only to our coaches, but also our members. And just trying to make a dent in this local community and impact as many athletes and humans as possible,


Brett Bartholomew  4:10  

which none of that’s easy, especially when you’re talking about all the way communicating things all the way from your members, your staff, how many people are on your staff, Andy,


Andy McCloy  4:18  

you got six total ,


Brett Bartholomew  4:20  

Six total staff how many did you start with how long you’ve been in business?


Andy McCloy  4:23  

I’ve been in business 18 years, and I started just me. 


Brett Bartholomew  4:26  

So how much was it? What was the square footage?


Andy McCloy  4:29  

It was actually my very first opportunity in a business was actually contracting out of a local Gold’s Gym. Yeah. As an independent contractor and then within my first year, I took over that whole gym and ended up with an exclusivity contract when my company did all the training in that area. And then we did the same for two other gyms that were Riviera fitnesses. I had contracts and all three of those gyms, where we hired trainers and provided training services, and around 2004 ish. I really was just kind of unfulfilled with the direction I was going, and really the market had changed. I created like a franchise prototype that I wanted to sell off to other gyms. But big box gyms started going, Wait a minute, we can keep all our training in house. So it kind of killed my idea. And I started running some speed camps and got a lot of traction in the sport performance side of things. And then kind of humbly moved myself into about a 1100 square foot high school weight room, and ran my business out of there for a couple years with no overhead and was able to develop a name and kind of attach to the success we had at this one private school and just kind of capitalized on things from there.


Brett Bartholomew  5:35  

I always feel bad for international listeners, they have to listen to us idiot Americans talk about the US imperial system, square feet when they use square meters as the rest of the world. But if you’re listening to this, you know, it doesn’t take much to understand that 1100 square feet. That’s not that big. Now it’s more than enough. It’s more than enough for sure. But it’s funny, because a newsletter went out today on my mailing list talking about three things that I don’t think coaches really need to be great. And one of it was, you know, absolutely, you need open space. But you don’t need as much space as you think. Would you agree?


Andy McCloy  6:06  

Absolutely. I mean, pretty much all the business owners or guys that I’m talking to want to get into sport forms business, that’s one of the things I spend a lot of time talking them into, is that you don’t need a lot of space, and you need to start really small. Like I think everybody wants to start off with the Disneyland facility. And I think that’s a really bad strategy for 99% of people unless you’re independently wealthy. hit the lottery. Or you’re just nuts. You know, I think starting small is the way to go.


Brett Bartholomew  6:33  

Yeah, I mean, you look at people always trying to emulate Pro or collegiate, you know, facilities, things like that. The reality is you can’t forget people like Mike Tyson did pretty damn well out of a Gleason’s gym. And boxing gyms have always been a huge inspiration for me, because they’re really sparse. I mean, there’s not much to them. And yet you walk in, there’s a whole lot of focus, there’s not people worrying about towels, are they mint scented? Do you have the latest, you know, $20,000 rack that does a squat for you now and implants, the adaptation into your body, you know, people just do shit and get to work, you know, as that in terms of the environment, how it feels and how it looks at BCI? What approach have you taken in that regard?


Andy McCloy  7:13  

Well, I mean, just kind of reflecting back on the days when we were at MA, we called it the lab. And a lot of the athletes that I’ve worked with now that are in the NFL or other high level areas of life, they’re very nostalgic about energy that was there, it was void of anything fancy, we had a couple of Elite FTS racks and a bunch of steel. And we just got after it, there was something about that dungeon environment. So when I moved into this place, we we got about 6000 square foot now, I realized that it was gonna be hard to like replicate that. And the way that we really tried to is just by not making this place too fancy. If you actually walk into my gym, it’s very dimly lit. We didn’t cover up the concrete walls, we wanted it to have kind of that dungeon feel still. And having more space, I think does kind of still affect some of the energy, no doubt, staying true to that field has been really beneficial.


Brett Bartholomew  8:07  

Yeah, that’s a good point. You know, this being a podcast for underdogs. When I first started this, I was like, you know, I want to do something that touches on things other than formal strength and conditioning topics, right? Getting into debates about front squat versus back squat. I wanted something that talked to other leaders and kind of integrated more organizations and professions so that coaches could collaborate with, people in the corporate side. And, other leaders and lawyers. And there’s a wide variety of listeners here. But the underdog thing is specific, because there’s always so much that you can kind of hear and see that is readily available from I don’t know, let’s call it figureheads in our field. But then there’s guys like you who I think have three times four times, and you won’t admit this, that’s fine. I know you’re humble that you have just as much, if not more knowledge and some of the most well known people in the field. Now, you’ve mentioned in the past that you’ve always had this feeling of imposter phenomenon. Why have you felt that way? And why is it taking you so long to kind of get out of your shell and start getting a little bit more active in terms of the way you’re vocal and getting your message out in the industry.


Andy McCloy  9:17  

So I think we all have this desire to belong. And in our industry, the way that people kind of identify with each other is through higher levels of education, and through the typical credentials. Well, I never got a degree I never went to college, I became a father at 16 years old and my priority was putting diapers on my kid and putting food in her mouth. So those things just weren’t priorities to me. And as I got into the industry, I remember is probably about 2002 Or three. I didn’t even know that you needed a degree to get a CSCS and I remember like either logging on or talking to me like we needed degree and this just didn’t add up to me I was it doesn’t matter what type of degree like I can have an art degree and I can get a CSCs but They won’t let a guy like me that’s actually doing the job, sit for it and see if they’re qualified. And I think quite frankly, that punched me in the stomach and made me feel like I didn’t belong, because I had no awareness about it, you know, until then. And the way I’ve dealt with it is just, it’s probably over consuming information. You know, they say that all positives come from a deficit. And I knew that what I wanted to do is if I had a conversation with somebody like you, or somebody that I respect in this industry, I wanted them to never ask me, Hey, where do you go to school? Or what’s your degree? And so I always felt like I had to have a command of the information in a way that I could articulate and communicate with somebody to where they wouldn’t ask that question. And I think the thing that’s really helped me kind of overcome it in some way is just one feedback from people like yourself and other coaches that I respect and that I’ve built relationships with for years, but continuing to kind of put myself in the fire and take advantage of opportunities to speak and share, which really, I’ve only done and probably over the past three years. But over these three years, I’ve kind of developed this sense of belonging, despite not having the typical credentials or education background a lot of people have in our industry,


Brett Bartholomew  11:08  

which is funny because a you were here for the January event we had when we talked about perception and value and judgments and the way people go about really impression management tactics and what they’ve tried to convey. What’s been crazy to me is, every time I’m around you, and I first started off, you remember, we’d see each other at conferences, and then eventually, you know, you had trained Jordan, Matthews, pretty much almost the entirety of his career pretty much right? 


Andy McCloy  11:32  

Pretty much his whole life 


Brett Bartholomew  11:33  

Right his whole life. Yeah. And then when I was at API, I remember he came out and, you know, people were like, oh, you know, what’s this? About what and you were like, Yo, like, Brett, and I communicate about this, like we want, you know, the best for Jordan. And we, you know, that sort of the dialogue between you and I, there was no turf war, you know, and then we just kind of maintained a friendship. But every time I looked at I never once thought like this dude, have a degree, you know, and so it’s funny to hear that you were and I get it, but it’s funny to hear that that was kind of a self conscious piece of yours. And I’m sure a ton of listeners can relate. Because you get questions every day just saying, hey, you know, I don’t have a degree, I’m not coming up the same way that seems like everybody else did, what should I do? I feel nervous. So I guess where I’m going with this, Andy is, what advice would you give to people that are listening to this? Because there are a lot of them, of how they should deal with those same feelings and emotions and almost kind of insecurities that you felt during that time?


Andy McCloy  12:26  

I mean, I wish I had like a more tactical answer. But I think it’s like, you really got to believe in yourself. You got to keep challenging yourself. Like for me. This industry kind of chose me, like I got into it, because I wanted to make money. If I’m honest, like that was it I was gonna be this big entrepreneur. And then all of a sudden my life experiences connected with coaching. And I was like, Wait a minute. I think mentorship is my why like, this is why I exist to be able to help young kids deal with the stuff that I dealt with growing up that created a lot of problems in my life. So when I jumped into this, there was no like, my plan B was to make plan a work. And I just never, ever questioned like, was I going to make it. I’ve dealt with insecurities. I’ve dealt with uncertainty. I haven’t known all the steps that it was going to take to get here. But I’ve always been able to identify like the next step. And I think that’s probably somebody that’s in a similar situation. Like I was like, You don’t got to know every step. But you do got to know what’s required next, like, what is the next thing required for you to move the ball forward in your life and your career?


Brett Bartholomew  13:34  

One time you and I talked, and you had mentioned that you and a buddy had pulled up some money. And you went and saw you met with Seth Godin, am I correct on that?


Andy McCloy  13:44  

Yeah, I actually mean, a large, not a large group, probably 10 or 12 of us that were involved in a mastermind group together did that. Yep.


Brett Bartholomew  13:50  

Now, the reason I bring that up is because so much of you know, just being nervous and putting yourself out there and then dabbling in that a little bit more and having competence. There’s essentially a marketing component to what we do no matter what I don’t care if you’re a pro strength coach listening to this, you got to convey that you’re the right person for the job. You know, if you’re in the private sector, you’ve got to convey that people should trust in you enough to give you their money. Marketing is a part of what you do. It’s I think, some people confuse it with advertising. And they think that oh to market is sleazy and what have you, but Seth wrote a book, maybe it could be one of the seminal books on marketing, although it’s built off the ideas of others is all books are, what were some things you took away from that meeting just in whether it was marketing related or just professional development related? Did any of it help with you getting over these doubts and fears and streamlining your message at all?


Andy McCloy  14:39  

I’m not so sure that specific meeting helped me other than in one specific area. He asked the group as a whole, like how many of us own one gym and then he kind of kept going until he got to five or six and there was one guy in the group I think that had four at that time. And his comment was, here’s the deal. If you’re going to own a gym, you should probably own one or own 10. And because it a lot of people that go to two, or three or four, just kind of double, triple and quadruple the headaches and problems and don’t really see a return on that once you get over that 10 mark, you’re really winning. So that made because at first, I’ve always had this idea of like having a bunch of facilities. And that created a shift for me, it was like, Okay, wait a minute, at least for the next decade or so I want to have a destination facility, I want to have one facility that people want to come to and people want to visit, where we can kind of showcase a series of best practices on how to run a private market business that really is dedicated to impacting a community. But in regards to marketing, what I’ve come to look at, it’s just consistent messaging. And for me, it’s telling the truth, and being honest and real about like why your business exists, my business does not exist to develop speed demons and monsters in the weight room. That’s the language that I used to use 10 12 years ago, because I didn’t understand the purpose of my business. But now the purpose of my business is to change and impact the lives of youth athletes to use training as a vehicle to open up conversations about how to get what you want out of life. And we constantly find ways to have that conversation with people. More so in our building. And when people kind of raise their hand and say, Hey, we’re interested in coming to train, we tell them that this is what we’re really about. So marketing to me is just become tell the truth about why you exist and quit trying to play this tactical strategical game to reel people in. And that doesn’t mean that like you ignore the concepts of persuasion, these things matter. Right. But I think doing it in an ethical way with a very clear message. That’s marketing to me these days.


Brett Bartholomew  16:47  

Yeah, well, I mean, and even the definition of persuasion isn’t to do anything negative, right? Like you use persuasive speech every time you try to, hey, I want to go get Mexican for dinner, or hey, I need you to clean your room. Well, no, I’m not going to clean my room. Well, it’s party insurance, I’ll give you three, like persuasion is always a piece of that. So like you said, it’s not really the medium, it’s the messenger. And that’s how they wield that thing. But you’re right. I mean, branding just means to mark something indelibly to burn or sear, you know, now, if you’re looking at how that coincides, it’s basically when you mark it, that’s a communication tactic. It’s saying this is who I am, this is what I do. And this is how I think it helps. And this is another strength of yours from what I’ve learned as your friend is, it’s highly correlated to storytelling. And the funny thing is, is storytelling is really how people learned information and communicated information early on in human history. And I think you’re one of the best at it, what’s helped you in terms of you really being able to tell a story and get your point across succinctly, but also in a relatable manner.


Andy McCloy  17:45  

I think again, telling the truth, right, like a lot of the stories and stuff that I share, like they come from real life experiences. And I think all of my message is grounded in unified behind this idea of like, I want to make humans better versions of themselves. And that’s what this industry has done. For me. It’s made me question my values, it made me question why I exist, why I wanted to be an entrepreneur to begin with. And it’s just made me a better person. So I think staying true. Understanding yourself, like, that’s the key to that. And I just think a lot of people, and we even talked about this in the art of coaching event, like they’re so focused on, like self construction and identity construction, they don’t really know when it becomes self deception, and they start representing themselves as somebody that they’re not, then their entire message gets convoluted, and they don’t even really understand why they exist. And for me, I’ve been fortunate that my life experiences have kind of flushed that out of me in a lot of ways.


Brett Bartholomew  18:39  

Do you think that some athletes deal with to, you know, just in their own regard, and in their own journey?


Andy McCloy  18:43  

Oh, man, without a doubt, I mean, you and we could talk about every level, but specifically with the high school athlete. I think that is a very dangerous thing for the high school athletes these days. They’re constantly comparing themselves to other kids both aesthetically, like how their Instagram account looks, for example, how they compare to somebody else. And I’ve seen kids completely change the way they talk, walk, dress, 


Brett Bartholomew  19:10  

In what way give an example, 


Andy McCloy  19:13  

I’ll give you a great example. kid goes off to college. He’s from a really good home. He’s a very articulate kid, he gets around a group of kids that are from an inner city, rough area, and all of a sudden he comes back, talking and acting like those kids. He didn’t really know who he was. He didn’t know his values. So he absorbed thiers because that’s what he perceived, made him more significant. And I think we all do I mean, I certainly dealt with that.


Brett Bartholomew  19:42  

Well, Everybody does it. It’s a part of nobody is the part about that. And the only reason I interrupt is because none of us are purely original people learn how to interact and be people learn how to act and behave through their shared collective interactions with others, right? Everybody learns a certain social norm by watching this by watching that. And so even though people may put their own spin on it, we’re all the byproduct of our shared interactions and observations of others.


Andy McCloy  20:11  

Without a doubt, without a doubt, and I just see that a lot in a way. It’s changed over the past, you know, 10 years where kids now I think, are less sure of who they are than ever. And they’re looking for confirmation or validation, through means that are unproven, like social media. And I’ve seen a lot of kids go astray, taking that route. 


Brett Bartholomew  20:34  

What was it before social media? Because obviously, I mean, that wasn’t an issue. So what was it? What do you think coaches 50 years ago fought with? 


Andy McCloy  20:44  

I don’t know. 


Brett Bartholomew  20:45  

Because social media, I mean, you’re right on that. But what I mean is, and I think social media becomes a scapegoat, though too like social comparisons happened, that the whole idea of keeping up with the Anderson’s right or did he would like to say, keeping up with the Joneses. I’m a hip hop nerd. And you are too. So that’s the real reason we’re on today’s podcast to talk hip hop.


Andy McCloy  21:06  

But I agree to like the Joneses, you said social comparison. And I think that’s probably the best way to define it. Like, I’ll give you a great example, from my personal life. This guy won’t be listening to this, but he deserves a nod. grown up in a neighborhood I grew up there were certain guys that were really well respected. And it was usually centered around two things, sports and being able to fight, like I just grew up in that generation where like, you still thought if you had disagreements, and there was a guy named Louis Young that I grew up with, and he was really good athlete, he could really fight. And I was influenced by him so much, so that he had a very specific way that he walked, he walked very pigeon toed. I’ve never been pigeon toe today in my life. But I remember as I was younger, like middle school, noticing myself walking pigeon toed, I didn’t have enough awareness to know that I was changing not only the way I behaved, but also the way I walk because I was so influenced by this person. But now reflecting back on it. I know, that’s what it was, probably also led to me wearing out my hips faster. But that’s a whole nother story. You know, but I think we’ve always done that, like you said before social media, we compare ourselves to other people. And we try to modify or attach our behavior to the way that they move and talk


Brett Bartholomew  22:15  

spot on, I think that’s a good thing for everybody listening too is understanding and we’ve talked about a little bit before on the podcast is a big problem in coaching and leadership right now, as they say that people really, they learn how to coach or lead one of two ways. One, they tend to coach the way they were coached when they were young. Or they try to blindly emulate somebody who was successful, or at least who they perceived to be successful. And the issue with that is people don’t really come up with contextual answers to what works in their environment, because they’re too busy trying to make everybody else fit this mold that worked for another coach. So I think if anybody’s listening, it’s a worthwhile reflective activity of saying, choose five behaviors you utilize on a daily basis, whether you’re coaching interacting in any circumstance, and write down why, where did those come from? What who’s the first person you saw do that, whether that’s a tonality, whether that’s something you worked on even the way that you dress, you tuck in your shirt, when you coach you wear certain kinds of clothes? It depends you use, what borrowed thoughts is what I’m getting at, did you take from somebody else that have now kind of become embedded in your day to day? I think that’s a valuable exercise. So with that, Andy, like, how have you continue? Do you journal? Or how did you become more aware of this stuff? Just kind of looking at yourself and being like, why am I doing this? What and how was it getting in my way? How did you become more self aware about that?


Andy McCloy  23:34  

Reading, I mean, reading personal development books is probably saved my life a couple of times over just making me aware that you need to be aware of how you behave. And I mean, again, just to kind of tell a real life story that created a shift for me is when I first started, you know, training, Jordan Matthews, I guess he was in seventh grade. And I trained a couple 100 kids that summer. And I think if you polled all of them, they would say that I was certifiably crazy. I know. I screamed, I dog cost. I called them names. I put them down. I did everything that we would say today a coach should not do. I did it because that’s how I was coached the majority of my life, right? That’s I absorbed that. But I’ll remember it was ninth grade, Jordans, ninth grade year, 10th grade year. Basically, in the locker room, I adapt him up and I gave him a hug. And he told me, he loved me. And I’ll never forget the feeling. I was like, I love you too. Like I know, 


Brett Bartholomew  24:39  

you didn’t know how to respond. 


Andy McCloy  24:40  

Yeah. And it just shocked me. And it was right. And I wish I could remember the name. I do. Remember Inside Out coaching is the name of the book. I just forget the author. But there was a quote in there man, I


Brett Bartholomew  24:50  

believe I don’t know if that’s how you pronounce his last name. But it’s Joe Erhmann.


Andy McCloy  24:54  

That’s it. That’s it in that book. I hope I’m currently reading his book for this correctly, because it was many years ago But he had that quote that everybody knows these days that like, nobody knows, cares what you know, until they know how much you care. So those two events kind of timed up really well, for me, that book had been recommended to me in that situation with Jordan. And I think those things kind of like forced me into introspection, like, is there a better way for me to do this? And then I really started, like, just leading from my heart, like coaching from my heart telling kids, I cared about them, sharing more my personal stories, like why I am the way I am? And why don’t necessarily want to be so reactive and angry all the time. And I think just that, I mean, again, it was probably a decade or more ago, but that process changed me to change the way I coach change the way I communicate, change the way I lead my team.


Brett Bartholomew  25:39  

And it’s not easy. I mean, and this coincides with my next question for you. You talk about reading and personal development, and nobody or very few people invest at the level you do, I believe, but plenty of people read a lot of books and attend a lot of clinics, but if you really if you truly adapt and in apply whatever they learn and go home and put it to use. I think people cherry pick, and they tend to use things confirmation bias. I’ll try this. I’ll try this. But very rarely does somebody take something and I don’t agree with this. I’m not sure this is going to work. But let’s give it a go. You do that? And I think that’s a real difference maker for you. What? Where did that come from? You know, How have you always kind of put that onus and accountability of saying, When did you learn that information by itself isn’t enough? 


Andy McCloy  26:27  

You got to do it. Man, I would love to say I learned that early on in my career. But I didn’t because I think I fell victim to that whole thing. Like, oh, everybody’s reading the Russian manuals, gotta read the Russian manuals, everybody’s reading Super Training, gotta go read. Like, I probably read Super Training three or four times, I’m not so sure I understand half of what I’ve read like, and that’s just the truth. And that may not sound cool to some of the really smart dudes listening to this.


Brett Bartholomew  26:50  

I think it’s okay, because Verkhoshansky. And we mentioned this once before to, in his opinion, and it wasn’t translated the way He intended it. And that was a big. So even people that read it and did understand it, from what it sounds like. And from what I’ve heard, they don’t understand it the way it was meant to be intended, because I don’t think it was written the way verkhoshansky wanted it. But keep going.


Andy McCloy  27:11  

So I mean, I think early on, I just kind of did what everybody did. Like, if you told me this is a good book to read, like I read the book, and I didn’t necessarily try to apply it. In regards to strength training, where the rub was for me is when I really started digging into periodization. And I would read what was supposed to be true about periodization, then I would have 10 kids in front of me with nine different strength coaches on nine different programs. So wait a minute, how am I actually supposed to apply what I just learned in this I’ve done linear nonlinear undulating, you name it conjugate I’ve done at all. And I would try to find like, what’s the best periodization model? Nobody’s written a book on how to periodized for athletes that are working out with a coach that A may not be qualified at all, or B may be qualified, but he’s unwilling to share what he does with you. Right. So I had to start just really digging into the material and decide what do I really believe is most important, as opposed to just taking what bump was said, or anybody you know, and that was a big shift for me in regards to coaching. When it comes to like personal development, I talk a lot about like, I’m pretty good judge of character. And I’m a pretty good judge of like finding authentic people to learn from. And I’ve always called it like mining for gold. So when somebody like you tells me, Hey, you should check this book out, or somebody like my buddy Lucas says, Hey, you should check this book out. I take that seriously. And I’ll go read that book, kind of with the assumption that it’s going to be applicable. And then a lot of times I’ve learned to treat those books, no more like resources, where I will apply the totality of the book, but I’ll find the message that connects with me, and then start applying it in my life. I would love to say I’ve got a like a more tactical strategy for that, too.


Brett Bartholomew  28:57  

But yeah, I think that works. I mean that what I’m trying to get at is so even today, for example, I had put on my Instagram that I was going to interview you and I wanted some more ideas in terms of hey, what questions is everybody have because you really want it to impact the people that are listening to this, right? Like I learned from you as well. But everybody that listens is looking for something and what you find and what I can’t still figure out for the life of me is nine tenths of the questions are. And I’m actually I’m gonna look at my phone right now, nine tenths of the questions are, how do you put together up here it is. How do you put together your periodization schemes, linear undulating. What style of periodization do you think is best for high school football players and why? And then there’s third one is what sets and reps are best for hypertrophy, you know, and it’s crazy. I mean, because still, no matter how much information is out there about these in regards to books and clinics and conferences, and social media now, it’s still I mean, I left it vague, I said What do you want to hear more. And here’s the interesting part. Let’s say you and I, and there will be a nerd episode in the future where we’ll do this. But let’s say you and I right now, dug deep into periodization, program design and everything. Now this is out there in the universe, those same people very rarely will ever listen to this. And I know that because I’ve tested it. When people ask a question, I’ll give them a resource. And then I’ve had people three weeks later asked the same question and I’m like, Yo, Did you look at that resource? Or like, I haven’t had time? What? Explain that to me? What are your thoughts on why that happens? Because we know there’s no shortage of podcasts, and books and everything that covered these topics, what is still so confusing about it for people you think? 


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Andy McCloy  32:07  

Why didn’t think if you’re in the private markets specifically in like, you want to know the answers to those questions. It’s probably because you’ve run up against some of the same things I was just talking about, like you realize, like, what you’re reading and studying doesn’t really apply to the environment you’re working in. And then I think the second part of it, and I kind of hate to say this, but we’re one of these industries where people like to compare themselves and show that hey, look, I’m in the know, too. So I don’t even know if they really want the answer, other than they want you to know that they know about different periodization models.


Brett Bartholomew  32:41  

That’s a good point.


Andy McCloy  32:42  

I think that’s kind of a secondary part of it. And to answer any of those questions, here’s my answer. It ain’t that deep. Like, it doesn’t matter. Like I’ve done it all linear, undulating conjugate. And I’m not so sure the results were ever different


Brett Bartholomew  32:57  

And believe me with as many people and many of them are way smarter than you and I that have discussed this and looked at it and research it and utilize it. If there was one right way for everybody, we would have found it by now. There’s just not going There never will be.


Andy McCloy  33:09  

And again, like I mean, listen, please correct me if I’m wrong. If somebody listening to this can tell me otherwise, please contact me, let me know, who wrote the book on periodization for dealing with the complexity of issues that I’m talking about? How do you periodized but like, the minute I learned about competing adaptations, I was like, Wait a minute. Yeah, everything I’m doing makes no sense now, like if I’m trying to drive a specific adaptation in this coach is doing something completely in contrast to that. What am I doing, and I just kind of defaulted back to this, we have a very simple approach of building volume, and intensifying volume in four to six week blocks. And we make adjustments for exercise selection, based on the time of year that they’re in and what information we can gather, we use a pre workout assessment, just how well did you sleep? How motivated are you? How fatigued Are you?


Brett Bartholomew  34:04  

Do you do that on paper? Or what do you utilize 


Andy McCloy  34:07  

It on a work out card when they come in, they grab a workout card, they check it off, we’ve got a very simple system that if you have more than two twos on your sheet, you go to your coach and we develop what we call an OTS off the script program. That is not our template for the day based on what we think you need. And this could be a cardiac output work. It could be a recovery workout more in hypertrophy parameters. But just to trial error and experience we’ve kind of developed these work arounds dealing with the imperfections of programming in this environment in the state of Alabama. CrossFit is an elective for middle school kids, every middle school athlete it has and I don’t mean this in a derogatory manner. So I don’t want any sports or just hearing


Brett Bartholomew  34:52  

People are gonna get upset regardless. Just say what you mean.


Andy McCloy  34:54  

Yeah, it’s just people applying stress to kids at the middle school level that shouldn’t not be doing it. And they’re doing it in very haphazard ways. So we are even dealing with a 12 year old that we’re having to work around a program that they’re doing at school. And so like when you’ve been doing this long enough, like, you know, I talked about this a lot, you are not the show, right? You can’t be the guy that wants to post max effort PRs and all this awesome Instagram and Facebook content, you’ve got to build your program around what you know your kids are doing, whether that’s good or bad. And I think there’s different ways to do that. But once you really understand this stuff, you got to understand like, you’re not the show, man, you’re the supplement to what they’re doing, whether that’s good or bad.


Brett Bartholomew  35:44  

And I think you hit on a key point there, that’s when I kind of fell out of love with that obsession, not that I’m not still interested in it. But I just remember in the collegiate environment, you know, it’s a little bit more singular in terms of you have things locked down your program, by and large is going to be implemented in a certain way, you know, not every athlete is going to be working with somebody outside. Now you have to deal with sport coaches, and the sport coaches are going to alter things or you’re going to have to deal with the fact that, you know, a kid just doesn’t eat for shit. So they’re not adapting, they’re not recovering. So they’re not hitting the weights that you want. You know, when I worked in the private sector with high school in Yeah, high school and youth, like you said, you’d have kids that would come from three hour practices had eaten, you try to get them some fuel. But after a while, you just start realizing all the cool periodization stuff you learn very few very little that can be applied. Right? So it’s all right, well, we know push pull squat hands, yada, yada, yada, five to six exercises, getting them really good at the simple things. Because if you’re really good at simple shit, you can train those simple things at a higher intensity. And somebody’s like, well, there’s not enough variability, well, there doesn’t need to be that much a bilateral RDL, they can become a unilateral RDL. And you can use contralateral you can use to dumbbell one leg, you know, you can use it, you can then move the barbell, but single leg, good morning, there’s so many options. But I think I would even go a step further. And I think some people just place their self worth on the perceived complexity of what they do. And they really, really, really want to believe that there’s some esoteric thing out there that they can do, because then when they showcase that, or people hear about that word spreads, that these people are doing some really cool things. And it’s kind of like this badge. But like you said, things may look a certain way, that doesn’t mean that they’re going to be as effective. And when you do this long enough, you realize, well, yeah, like all the cool stuff. Looks cool. But what did it give me? Did it even get me like, even a half an inch? Higher? Jump on my vertical? And more importantly, are you doing it because the athlete needs it or because you want to do it? And I hear? Go ahead,


Andy McCloy  37:44  

What drives that, I think a lot. And again, like, I know, you don’t like to always come back to social media, but I swear to you, I think a lot of what is driving what a lot of people are doing in facilities like mine, is what they think will look cool on the internet. Like you can’t tell me that the average 16 year old in your program needs to be doing French contrast, . That’s not what they need to be doing. But if I promise you I’m scrolling my newsfeed. Today, I’m gonna see 10 videos, a French contrast, right? Just people identify certain exercises and images associated with training, like, bring the juice hardcore training, they identify that as good content these days. So I think a lot of coaches are more focused on creating content than they are actually running a program that’s in the best interest of their kids.


Brett Bartholomew  38:33  

I think they’re just fishing for easy compliments. I don’t even know if half of them are thinking about content as much as they are looking for social approval. Right? We talked about this in January and Valued, right that the idea, the biggest reward for a coach is that social reward of respect or admiration of another coach. And so I don’t think people understand that content is supposed to be complete content is context. What a lot of these people are doing is they’re fishing for easy dopamine. But even before social media was you know, there were forums and they were Oh, I heard this guy at this university is doing this. And then what was it a long time ago at a march aletta. You know, we hear about everything he’s doing with this crazy program, the pieces and I’m gonna write this book on Amazon and feel free, you can be a co author. But I always just tell people, here’s how you break it down. If I had to have a book on training, lift weights at different speeds in different ways, in different angles in different volumes at different intensities, different times a year, you know,


Andy McCloy  39:30  

great time and add content


Brett Bartholomew  39:34  

and content, but here’s the thing, like no matter what it and I agree with you, you know, social media can play a role, but it’s there. And so at the end of the day, what people have to realize and I think closing thoughts on periodization and I want you to knock off your final piece to before we go on to the next topic. But you have to look around you at your environment. You have to think what do these athletes really need? What do I know how to implement really well because it doesn’t matter if some modified conjugates system you think would work better if you don’t know how to implement it stick with a basic linear piece. And you know what, by and large all kinds of periodization are relatively linear, or undulating in nature anyway, there’s going to be ups and downs, there’s going to be times where you’re going to have to adapt it but quit looking at what you think you should do. Look at what they need. Look at what you know, you can implement look at what you have around you. And where that out. And plus, why do you feel like you need to do something different analyze? Are you still making results in the program? Are the kids still making two and a half five pound bumps? Or increases? Are you constantly taking out every exercise from block to block? And let’s say you just finish a four week cycle and then bring in all new exercises? Cause you probably don’t have to if you’re doing that now you’re missing? What made the program effective in the first place, you should change one or two things. observe and understand the point that you just got to keep this shit simple. And in question whether you really need the next bit. Even Dan Pat talks about this, you know, thank God who will stand the test of time. So if you hear about something great, don’t be a first adapter. This isn’t Uber, this isn’t iPhone, we’re not trying to develop the next best thing here, you’re making sure your athletes don’t get hurt, be patient. And if it’s around in five years, chances are this is something bigger and beyond five years that’s effective. What are your kind of closing thoughts on that?


Andy McCloy  41:23  

My closing thoughts would be this. Quit worrying about looking at programming through the lens of periodization. And look at it this way. It’s about skill acquisition, and progressive overload. Teach the kids the skill of lifting weights and those patterns that you’ve already mentioned, continue to overload them in some way, right by way of tempo load or something and keep it simple. And last piece of this, you’re in the private market facility, set your program up in a way that allows you to give them what you believe is optimal for them. Going back 10 years ago, the thing was conjugate periodization kind of ran everything. And it was like, Well, I’m only getting people for a short couple of months before they go into their season. Well, that’s because you chose to run your business model that way. So like we sell a year round training model, we don’t sell spring training or summer training, we sell year round training, because we believe that gives us the best chance to improve their skills and overload them in a simple, safe and effective manner. You know how to spot


Brett Bartholomew  42:29  

I mean, spot on on it. And guys, there’s tons of great resources out there on this stuff. So if you still find yourself confused, are you thinking Andy and I are full of shit. Again, just go to And there’s a reading list there that’ll give you every periodization and program design book you could ever want. So if you still want to dive deeper on that, and rightfully so there’s parts of your career where that’s, you know, primarily what you should immerse yourself in. But do your due diligence because that stuff’s out there. And nobody’s going to have the perfect answer for you and your situation. That’s why you’re professional to discern what is right for you and the athletes you work with in any circumstance. So, Andy, let’s go back to kind of just owning a business. And you balance a lot with that we’ve kind of touched on those pieces. But how does owning a business impacted the other areas of your life? Can you give specific examples as to how you’ve managed this both poorly in the past? And a bit more successfully now?


Andy McCloy  43:24  

Yeah, I mean, so first decade of running my business ran me. And I kind of used, that quote, you know, you got to live like no one else today. So you can live like no one else tomorrow, as a rationale for being very one dimensional. Like the only thing I knew how to do was run my business. My family relationships suffered. I was unable to be present for my youngest daughter. I was just constantly consumed with making ends meet. And I learned a lot of hard lessons I dealt with a lot of burnout like and that’s, you know, something that you talked a lot about that I really appreciated in your course. And I don’t even know if I had as much awareness of how it manifested itself in my life until I went to your course. But um, I got really burned to where I didn’t even want to do my job at times. I didn’t want to be around people that I enjoyed being around. I just kind of isolated myself because of that. So over the past couple of years, I wish I could give you it’s been a couple years, I think I’ve kind of figured this thing out. And for me, it’s like I compartmentalize these areas of my life, right? So my family, the way I manage me and my wife’s relationship is every week we’ve got a mandatory date night we get a babysitter for our daughter and it’s just me and her 


Brett Bartholomew  44:45  

every week? 


Andy McCloy  44:45  

every week, every week. I mean, listen, I’d be lying if I said we’ve never missed a week but it’s rare, because it’s that important to me, for me and her to maintain a connection because I have the perspective and knowing what a business can do to that. When it comes to my daughter, I have a cut off time at work, where I’m leaving no matter what work gets done, and I’m out of there and I’m coming home. And we’re either going out to dinner as a family that night, or we’re going home and eating together. And then we have a very specific routine. I’m gonna, my daughter is about to be five. But you know, I still like brushing her teeth with her. I still like singing her song every night. We’ve got an affirmation that I every single night where she says, I love myself, I honor myself, I respect myself, I appreciate myself, I live my values, I chase my goals, I show up and I take action we have every single night together. So I compartmentalize family and protected. That’s been a big thing. When it comes to my health, this is something that was drastically affected early on. I rationalized just like hitting a five rm and calling it a day as a workout. Whereas now like I don’t really care so much about how strong I am, I have the perspective of breaking my body almost in two and having hip replacements this past year because of it. But now I take care of my health in a multitude of ways. From strength training, to how I eat, to meditation, to journaling, just to keep myself mentally and physically healthy. I had a good conversation with another colleague of mine about one thing I still struggle with that I’m trying to play and more into my life is things outside though, of family and business. So I like to make time to go shoot my gun. Go walk around, but just something to where I’m forced to be present. And I’m not thinking about anything else just me time. Now just call it intentional practice. Would you say? I’m sorry?


Brett Bartholomew  46:34  

What kind of gun do you have?


Andy McCloy  46:35  

I got Glock 19 Glock 43. I got an AR


Brett Bartholomew  46:41  

Australia’s like oh my god, these crazy America they go. I always get share when I go over there to like mine. You got a gun. And that’s my. What’s that? 


Andy McCloy  46:50  

Well, I mean, you’re in Georgia now. I mean, I’m in Alabama. I can go like 100 feet that way. And by newsy, you know me like it’s just one


Brett Bartholomew  46:57  

By way art of coaching podcast does not condone the buying of automatic assault weapons at all. I’m gonna get some hate mail for that one. That was not me. No, you’re fine. Because you know what? It’s funny. I bring that up. Because when I was in Arizona, I got a gun too. You know, I’d rather have one and not need one than need one not have one. And if you’re listening to this, and you don’t agree, that’s your prerogative. That’s fine. You know, when I do shoot, I go out to a gun range. We put on protective headgear. You know, it’s a licensed gun owner, but it’s funny, you know, my dad’s 66. And he had never shot a gun before. And usually when my dad comes out, he’s got a lot of health issues just a lot. And it’s really hard to do anything active with him. You know, hiking is out of the question. I mean, you met him, right? Like he’s still absolutely with it mentally, just physically. He’s got spinal stenosis, his knees are bummed, just can’t do much. But I’m like, I told my wife, I’m like, we can’t just go to a movie and go out to eat again. I got to take him to do something. I go, Hey, Dad, want to shoot? Just like, Yeah, let’s go. So he’s scared. shitless we go up, you know, they give him a little run. I go, What do you want to get in? He gets a little sick shooter because he loves you know, we’re John Wayne, the sons of Katy elder, like, would watch that and fall asleep in his underwear. And he’s sitting there shooting his gun, just having a blast. And he goes, you know, what’s funny about that? Is he goes for literally that hour. I didn’t think of anything other than that moment.


Andy McCloy  48:16  

That’s what it does for me, too. That’s what it does. Like, that’s the only thing I’m focused on.


Brett Bartholomew  48:21  

You gotta be gun safety. 


Andy McCloy  48:23  

Exactly. Right. 


Brett Bartholomew  48:24  

It’s got to raise the stakes.


Andy McCloy  48:26  

 That’s exactly right. You know, so I think that’s been a great thing for you. We’re like, sports used to do that for me. They just don’t do it for me anymore. Because I can’t really participate in a lot of them, at least not yet. After having my hips replaced this year, you know, and I’m constantly looking for activities like that, that helped me get out of my head, and just into my body, be present be in my body. I mean, meditation was big there. But like, meditation isn’t like, the absence of thoughts, right? It’s like accepting thoughts and kind of deciding what to do with him in that moment for me and that, but, that’s another thing that it changed my life. I mean, if you talk anybody that knew me, it’s probably been five or six years now meditating pretty much every day of my life. Wow. it’s changed my life. Like it’s gave me that pause between being triggered in reacting, like I’m a lot less reactive these days, I know how to be triggered, or be stimulated, and then decide on how I’m going to respond as opposed to just reactively flying off the handle like I used to.


Brett Bartholomew  49:24  

Well, and touching on that, you know, you mentioned, you came up for the first art of coaching clinic in Atlanta, and you can attribute it to it, which is awesome, you know, and I want people by the time this comes out, people who have done the course will have access to what you did, so I’m not gonna give it away. You guys are interested, you gotta check it out. Again, Art of coaching, just go out there and you’ll see one of the courses it’s called Valued, but were there any topics we chatted about there that you felt like you wish you would have known more about five to six years ago? You know, you talked about the burnout piece. You mentioned that but was there anything else that really kind of struck a chord with you that you feel like if somebody’s listening They really need to take stock of now otherwise they kind of, you know, Ghost of Christmas Future, they run the risk of meeting that cat down the road.


Andy McCloy  50:08  

There’s probably a couple things. I mean, the five s filter, I thought was really cool and really big. I wished that I had kind of had that as a tool earlier 


Brett Bartholomew  50:16  

You and me both 


Andy McCloy  50:17  

Discussing, and I think this was very courageous, discussing like the nepotism in the industry. Like I was really impressed that you went there, because there’s so many people that I talked to, that won’t jobs in college or the pro levels. And it’s a little disheartening, like sharing the reality of things with them. That it’s, I don’t care how many certifications you have and what your degree is, and like it really matters, who you know, and how connected you are. And I think people got to start understanding that and realize that, like, relationship building is a huge thing.


Brett Bartholomew  50:50  

 And relationship building, not just networking, 


Andy McCloy  50:53  

And that’s a great distinction, because there’s a huge difference. And I heard somebody talk about this in terms of sales, but I can relate this back to what you’re talking about as far as relationship building is like, if someone’s really trying to sell you hard, like you can smell their commission breath. You can just smell


Brett Bartholomew  51:12  

Commission breath I’ve heard of keto, like ketogenic I’ve heard of keto crotch never heard of commission breath.


Andy McCloy  51:20  

The first time I heard it, I lost it. I about fell out of my chair. And, but that’s I can tell when people are unauthentically trying to build a relationship too and I joke all the time. Sure. Like, I think my superpower is actually relationship building. If I had one superpower, it’s that. And it’s because I actually care. 


Brett Bartholomew  51:40  

Yeah, magic happens when you give a shit. And people know that it’s actually like, you know,when people can tell they’re sincere. You can’t fake sincerity. You know, well, Anne Hathaway and maybe some actors and actresses who can make themselves like cry on I’m sure they can. But the average person I saw a movie preview with Anne Hathaway a while that sounded super manly. Shout out to Cat Woman. But yeah, I mean, like, it’s, you can tell you can’t fake that.


Andy McCloy  52:05  

No, man, I think for people who are self aware, have a high level of emotional intelligence, like, they can spot that shit from a mile away. And getting really good at being authentic is probably the first step like so many of us don’t know how to build a relationship, we don’t really have a good relationship with ourselves. Like there’s this constant posturing, and like you talk about, like, managing their image. And as opposed to just really connecting with people. And again, not saying that image management is a bad thing.


Brett Bartholomew  52:34  

Not everybody does it, you go to the end. I mean, it’s but you just, it’s about putting a governor on it’s kind of like driving fast. You know, it depends, like, you know, or are you what is the speed limit? What are you? What’s the spectrum? What’s the scenario, all these things. So, all of this comes down to how you wield the tool, you know, like, I have a hammer in my garage, that shits really dangerous, if I don’t know how to use it, you know, but at the end of the day, it’s a hammer, it builds houses, so but you know, whether it’s communication, marketing, training, utilizing a certain exercise, you know, just even the work you choose, all these things have a double edged sword to it. But people have to quit looking at that as black and white. Agreed,


Andy McCloy  53:10  

agreed 100%. Because a lot of people have issues with that. And it affects their business, it affects their ability to build relationships. And when I’ve struggled with some of that, like not wanting people to perceive me as being a salesman, or trying to be a guru, but that was never my intent. I just wanted to share and connect with people. But I was so worried about how other people would perceive that. It’s probably slowed me down in some regards. So


Brett Bartholomew  53:33  

yeah, well, any learn people will perceive you or whatever, you know, it’s kind of like a friend of mine recently, he was writing an article and he’s like, in the article, he must have stated three or four times I’m not an expert, this is just my opinion. Go dude. Like, stop. You know what I mean? Here’s the at the end of the day, you can say that as many times as you want. If your work spreads, inevitably, somebody’s still gonna hate you. Like you keep saying that, because you’re trying to be defensive and put disclaimers out there. For the day that somebody jumps all over you and says this inadequate, they’re gonna do it anyway. Go ahead.


Andy McCloy  54:01  

I think you’ve been pointed this out where it’s like, I’m not acknowledging something doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist or like, by saying, I’m not a guru, you’re still managing other people’s impression of you. They’re doing it in a different way. Because you know, that people might identify with you more as being humble. And that’s something I know, I’ve gone to a million times subconsciously. It’s like, I would rather manage my impression in that way than you think I was arrogant or something along those lines. But I don’t think a lot of people even have awareness that they do this stuff, you know, and I think once you have awareness around it, you can make a better decision. Like, is this form of impression management congruent with the career that I want? Or is it not?


Brett Bartholomew  54:41  

Yeah, and it can go the other way too, right. Like people get competitive in their humility, right? There’s, oh, you know, like, I’ve talked about it before it annoys the crap out of me when somebody really intelligent continually says that, you know, they’re not smart. They’re not deserving. They’re not I’m like, dude, just get over it. You know what I mean? I get it like you’re Be humble, but you look at Unlike some of the most, there’s colts out there that the form of collectivism is so much that everybody just always it’s not about me, it’s not about me, it’s not about me it’s not about and eventually, they’re just like, isn’t anything to that person. It’s like, well, you might as well be the guy next to you, you know, sort of certain amount of individualism and acceptance of like, you know, don’t quit worrying about this shit, just share, you know, I can say I’m not a guru or an expert on everything in the world. And I don’t have all the answers a million times on this podcast a million times in my book a million times in each presentation doesn’t matter. Somebody doesn’t like you. They don’t like if they think you’re a know it all, they’re gonna say you’re know it all people are just, you know, insecure. And that’s gonna happen. You know, the last thing I kind of want to touch on with you, Andy, because I think you have so much knowledge here and anybody listening? If you have business related questions, this is the dude you go to. I’ll say that, again, business related questions. This is the guy you go to you, Andy, just even talking about something as simple as creating a business plan, something none of us are taught in school, none of us have any knowledge of you know, in terms of just right out of the gate. It’s stuff that we maybe have to accrue, what are some things that anybody listening that if they’re even considering this route, you would say Yo, pump the brakes, think about these three or four things?


Andy McCloy  56:12  

First of all, I’ll give them a book to go read, right? It’s a very simple book that I recommend to a lot of people called business planning a day. And it’s just a very simple overview of all the things that you need to include in a business plan, some of which is like, and they talked about this a lot in marketing, but like, you’ve got to know who like your customer avatar is like, Who are you marketing to? You’re wanting to deal with youth athletes, you got to understand that you’re actually marketing the mom and dad, they’re the ones paying the bill, right? So you’ve got to know that you’ve got to understand demographics. You got to know what the income is like what type of jobs people have, right. But more important, I would say the demographics, and I’ve watched a very large sport performance company, bury them selves on this, they put themselves in an area that was if you just looked at demographics, you would think it was great, okay. But you need to understand psychographics, you need to understand the mentality of the consumer. I am in engineer town, like you meet rocket scientists on a regular basis. So from an income standpoint, they’ve got the money, but they will pinch a penny until Abe Lincoln jumps off it, you need to make sure that you create your pricing strategy, and understand how people view travel and distance. Another mistake that this company made is they put themselves in the most demographically viable area from like an income standpoint, not realizing that people in this town don’t want to drive more than about 10 or 12 miles to get there. So they pigeonhole themselves into this area where they really can’t grow in scale, not because they didn’t choose the right area, demographically, they really didn’t understand psychographics. You need to understand your competition, you need to know what they’re good at. You need to know what they’re bad at. You need to know what they charge. You need to know like, how they’re going to try to poke holes in what you do. And I think that is a forgotten part, like a lot of us are like, Oh, I’m the best coach, I’ll figure it out. You know, like, I’m better than these guys. But sometimes it doesn’t matter. Right? You know, you’ve got to understand all of that. And then one other thing that I’m not so sure I’ve ever written a business plan book that you definitely need to take into consideration is, how likely are you going to be able to build relationships in your area. So when I first moved here, I had a really hard time getting traction with sport performance. Because I was new I was a Yankee to them, I was from the Washington DC area. Coaches didn’t even want to talk to me, I would go to their office, and they talk to me for a couple minutes. And they politely would say they had something to do. But after being here for a decade, and constantly showing up and building connections, that’s probably my biggest asset. You know, I think that is a huge thing. And then probably the last piece, at least off the top of my head, is you’ve got to have a way to project income. And look at different business models, like we talked about earlier, it’s very common in our industry, for people to do like seasonal enrollment. But that leads to you training people intermittently, and it leads to not having predictable and sustainable income. So you’ve got to look at the differences in business models that are out there and exist. And I’m a heavy proponent of the year round model, which creates its own issues and imperfections too. But I think they’re easier to work around when it comes to building a sustainable and predictable business.


Brett Bartholomew  59:34  

really succinct way of knocking out I wasn’t expecting anything nearly that tactical. So I hope if anybody’s listening to that, that you wrote that down, if not, you need to replay it back and lock that in because I don’t think he even flubbed a line. Those are key critical concepts that you’ve got to consider. And it’s funny you talked about poking holes, you know, at the time of this podcast, at least right now, and I’ve joked about this with you, you know, I don’t know of anybody. I told my wife I go into only a matter of time until somebody starts ripping off kind of art of coaching what I’m trying to do for the social side of coach development, and I go, just get ready for it, it will be the art of communication or the art of speaking or somebody will I’ve already seen it with the book people try to attack archetypes people try to attack this they get so it’s funny that our field tends to that’s the route they choose if they want to make a name for themselves or like, oh, mimic and attack us, Brett have a PhD does Brad have this that he talked about that was his color of his book, yellow, mine’s gotta be green, they take it and they just think that they have to attack as opposed to add value or just you know, innovate on your own side, you know, find that like healthy competition is good. But the way you go about it says a lot about your, business in general. Like I’ve never heard you once talk bad about another model. I’ve never heard you once talk bad about another coach, which is super rare. In terms of you just being petty, you know what I mean? Like, and that’s something that no leader really does a really good book, at what was it the high, it’s a really good book. And I forget the title, something habits of the world class and the guy says the lower class talks about other people, middle class talks about money, upper class, or world class talks about ideas. And this isn’t socioeconomic status related, it’s just in terms of how you treat people in the way you go about your business. But I love that.


Andy McCloy  1:01:17  

I appreciate that man. And I think that’s something that I’ve worked hard to do is talk about what I know to be true. And I’m at a point now in my career, where I am a little bit more courageous to stand up and speak against some of the things that I think what I call Disneyland facilities do. But that’s not to say, I don’t understand why they do it. It’s not to say what they do doesn’t work. It’s just that I think there’s a lot more guys out there like me, who are bootstrapping their way through this thing, trying to do a good job, and don’t have some of the advantages that some of these large companies have. And if you’re constantly going to those people to learn how to run a business, a small business, I think that’s a flawed strategy. And I think it takes going to those events, trying those strategies, beating your head against the wall and asking yourself, why isn’t this working the way it works for so and so you’ve got to do that at some point. And I just hope that I can, over the next couple of years of my career being agent for change in that area. And just like if you’re a small business owner, if you own a garage, gym and micro gym, you want to have a sport performance first business. I’ve got some strong opinions and I think might be beneficial.


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:29  

Yeah, and I think you know, I’ve taken a lot of your time today, and but I want people to be able to reach out to you about those things, you know, you’ve given a ton of information right now, but And if people want to reach out to you, if they want to learn more from you, whether it’s consulting, whether it’s some of your events, whether it’s a resource, you put out what’s the best way that somebody can get more familiar with your work, and then follow up with you for more information.


Andy McCloy  1:02:49  

So I’m trying to funnel everybody just into one area at this point, but it’s andymccloy_bci on Instagram, or you can reach out to me at Those are probably the two best ways to get a hold of me with a priority on Instagram.


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:06  

Perfect, guys, make sure you invest in this, this guy has got a plethora of resources. He also like I said, if there was a strong, strong and just really giving contributor to what we did with my online course Valued, which by the time you guys hear this will be released. So check it out. Again, you’ve got to do your due diligence, and nobody’s gonna lift the finger for you. I know there’s a lot of people listening that they’re already on it, you know, they invest heavily in this but there’s also some of you listening. And if this hits you, if the shoe fits. There’s some of you listening that are still in the phase where you really just want easy answers. You want somebody to talk to you directly, lay it all out for you all this, I can’t emphasize it enough. That’s not coming. Nobody is coming to hold your hand. And that’s not me trying to be rude. That’s just a lesson you learn in life. So you ever really got to dive in, whether that’s saving money to make sure that you can get one of Andy’s things, whether that’s going down to visit him. You know, Tim Karen talked about in a previous episode, you either pay for it or you earn it, or you learn it the hard way I’d add that and so if you think that you’re gonna get by and you’re just gonna go to the next podcast and the next podcast or the next person, and his answer is going to be laid out it’s not go find guides, go find mentors go find people like Andy. Andy, I can’t tell you enough how much I appreciate your time man it was long, long, long overdue.


Andy McCloy  1:04:23  

Likewise, brother, I mean, it’s one of my favorite podcasts I’ve ever been on and I think that has a lot to do with the way the mean you view this stuff and I just really enjoyed it man. So this was a pleasure.


Brett Bartholomew  1:04:33  

I appreciate you guys if you found value in this please make sure to rate it. Leave feedback for Andy especially if you guys are listening to iTunes stay subscribe. We’re gonna have this guy on again. Andy. Have a good day. Everybody else have a great rest of the week. All right, brother.


 Listen, one more thing before you go and I know a lot has been crammed into this episode. But I want to make sure I let you know about my YouTube channel so I didn’t do it. anything on YouTube for the longest time, but per your guys’s requests and per some folks that just really wanted some more visual content, whether that be just tips, advice strategies, or even visuals of the type of coaching that I do live events and workshops, I have created a YouTube channel that showcases even more in depth information that complements the podcast, the book and everything we’re doing at art of coaching. So if you found value in this resource, or you’re enjoying the content, please make sure you visit my YouTube channel, subscribe. And we’re going to continue to try to put out a wide variety of things that whether you’re a coach, whether you’re a personal trainer, whether you’re a CEO, whether you’re a manager, or in some way, shape, or form, help you better interact with people and figure out how to work on bridging the gaps in your own development. So again, check out the YouTube channel, check out anything else that we do at and thanks again for tuning into the show. I appreciate each and every one of you

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