In Art Of Coaching Podcast
Mike Golic Jr. is a retired American football player and broadcaster in ESPN Radio. During his football career, he played as an offensive guard with several teams such as Pittsburgh Steelers and New Orleans Saints.  He also played college football at Notre Dame where is was an Academic all-American.  Today he joins us on episode 32 of the Art Of Coaching Podcast.
Topics include:
  • What shaped Mike’s personality early on
  • Some of the challenges associated with broadcast radio
  • Figuring out his radio voice through countless reps
  • How Mike improved his communication skills through active listening
  • The difference between commitment and compliance
  • When it is necessary to hold back on opinions
  • At what point is it the fault of the leader/manager/coach in failing to connect and communicate?
  • What has changed with college football today and how does this affect the product we see on the field?
  • How the Transfer Portal is changing the landscape of college football
  • Reasons to empathize with college football coaches

Reach out to Mike:
Twitter & Instagram: @mgolicjr57
Radio Show: Golic and Wingo Weekdays 6:00 AM – 10:00 AM EST

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Brett Bartholomew  0:01  

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Welcome to the Art of coaching podcast, a show aimed at getting to the core of what it takes to change attitudes, behaviors and outcomes in the weight room, boardroom classroom and everywhere in between. I’m your host, Brett Bartholomew, I’m a performance coach, keynote speaker and the author of the book conscious coaching. But most importantly, I’m a lifelong student interested in all aspects of human behavior and communication. I want to thank you for joining me and now let’s dive into today’s episode.


Welcome back, everybody to another episode of The Art of coaching podcast. I am here with Mike Golic Jr. Mike is a host for ESPN a regular contributor on Golic and Wingo a former college football player, Academic All American at Notre Dame, and now a master of oration and all things pop culture, and that will definitely come through on the conversation today. Mike also had stents with the Steelers, the saints and the Alouettes we met man it probably would have been around 2012 2013 When I have the opportunity to coach Mike and his brother Jake Mike it’s an honor to have you on the show man anything I missed there?


Mike Golic Jr.  4:43  

No man you You nailed it thorough as always I appreciate the master of pop culture nod there I think I’m still working diligently in that Dojo to get to some of my peers but as I said the award shows it’s an honor just to be nominated.


Brett Bartholomew  4:57  

They go man and nice alliteration there diligently in the dojo Uh, Mike, one of the things that’s always drawn me to you from the first moment that we met, I remember I was just going down, we were doing some soft tissue stuff before we were training. And I introduced myself and you have like a command and a boom, to your voice and just a way of projecting personality and competence and engagement, unlike any I’ve ever seen. And now that’s obviously shining through with what you’re doing with ESPN, all the coverage there and everything you’re starting to do as you segue into more of the college football space. I mean, you’re kind of like everywhere on ESPN now. But like, where did that come from? What are your ability to just communicate and speak at such a high level come from?


Mike Golic Jr.  5:38  

I think some of it was certainly natural. I mean, obviously, my father in the line of work he’s been in, in doing this in radio for the better part of two decades now. I think I can attribute some of that to good genes. He was the same way very personable as a player, but him and my mom who just kind of the way that me and my siblings, I’m the oldest of three were all raised, it was a lot of those basics that go into creating the structure for that, right. When you meet people, you look them in the eyes, you introduce yourself, you say yes, sir. You say no, ma’am. You shake their hands firmly, you make all those basics that I feel like, if that’s the framework for how you’re going to communicate, then the rest just gets filled in with personality. And I was fortunate to grow up in an environment around a dad who was on sports, talk radio every day, were being yourself and having a big personality was something cool, something that was rewarded. And so it made it a lot easier to fill in with that framework.


Brett Bartholomew  6:35  

Yeah, and it’s definitely rare. I mean, like you think about, I understand that your involvement with team sports, especially at the super high level that you and your father and your uncle played at, you know, there’s a team dynamic there where you have to communicate with everybody around you. But what role is that even played as you’ve now started, do get into broadcasting more, I mean, you have such a limited amount of time to keep the attention of the viewer, get your point across, has that provided any challenges? Or does that still come pretty natural to you?


Mike Golic Jr.  7:03  

Oh, no, but definitely provided challenges, because I think, and you can certainly speak to this, you know, whatever, you’re doing, a lot of the same skills can apply. And whether that’s, you know, in the case of training, sometimes sports a sport and the different skill sets and based things that can apply, but there’s always going to be things specific and germane to everything. And so, yeah, for a long time, I got used to working in communicating in sports, and what I need to do to communicate best for teammates and coaches to get things done. And it’s different on the side, you know, the way I have to communicate with producers navigating the bureaucracy of, you know, the corporate brass side of ESPN, but then getting on the show, like, Alright, I have to, you know, even as personable as I am, I have to structure things differently. If I want to hold someone’s attention, when I build out an argument for something, I’ve got to lead with my strongest stuff, I’ve got to kind of try and craft a hook so that someone’s going to want to stick around. And so it kind of required me to. And I always said this, this is the difficult part of transitioning from sports to this is I had to kind of learn how to work hard all over again, because I know how to do something over and over again, when I’ve been shown the right way and pointed in the right direction. But this was just a completely new arena. And so I had to kind of relearn or learn for the first time, I guess all those new ways to work hard to different states, even though it’s using a lot of the same tools.


Brett Bartholomew  8:25  

No, that definitely makes a lot of sense. I mean, one of the big reasons I started at art of coaching is, I don’t think any of us really learn how to navigate complexities of social skills. I mean, you talked about it a moment ago, we may learn the please in the thank you in the basic kind of details of fundamentals of polite communication, but in terms of navigating egos, insecurities, or, even just like, these micro political things that you deal with in the workspace. There’s no social skills training on that. And that was one thing I wanted to kind of ask you next is when you started working at ESPN, because I get asked sometimes by people, they’re like, hey, when you speak to is there a school you went to? Or did you take a class? Like did you have any kind of training? Like, do you guys have that at ESPN? Do they have some kind of almost semi formal education that as you come in that they help you kind of find your voice  and learn different tricks of the trade when you’re on the air?


Mike Golic Jr.  9:18  

Yes and no. So they do some things to help you out. You know, they had an interview, like an interview seminar, because that’s a big part of the job that I think is the most unnatural, right? A lot of what we do is just talking to one another. But when it’s an interview process, when it’s something a little bit more formal, they did a lot to kind of help you and those things certainly apply to conversation as well. And it helped me so there was some training involved, but a lot of it and you hear this over and over again, when I first got into this, from anyone who I asked for advice is you’ve just got to get the reps. It’s like no, it’s the 10,000 hour rule. It’s everything else where I can sit around and be told Alright, this is how to do something and I can sit around and ask my dad and as many other better rims in this process as I can for advice and for guidance and for how they felt like they got the best out of themselves. But at the end of the day, I still have to go out there and kind of learn by making mistakes. And so for me, I got to host a radio show from four to six in the morning Eastern time, when hardly anyone was listening. And so I was allowed to, thankfully, and I am certainly appreciative of this. I’ve allowed to kind of make mistakes and try things out and figure out alright, what is my voice? What am I comfortable saying? What are the things I want to get across? And I think really just this past year is the first time I started to feel like I had any real handle on that. And I’ve been at ESPN for almost five years now. It’ll be starting five years this fall. So it’s definitely been a process.


Brett Bartholomew  10:44  

Yeah. And I think you bring you mentioned something specific there about having almost kind of this safe place to fail and get the reps right. When you did that early morning show. That’s something that I found that, you know, coaches don’t, when we talk about communication, most coaches kind of take that for granted. Because they feel like, oh, I communicate every day, I’m getting the reps. And I’m like, Yeah, I mean, that’s coaching, though. I mean, there’s other elements of communication that you’ve got to deal with, right? Because it’s not always explaining something to somebody, there’s a lot of negotiation involved with coaching, there’s conflict resolution, there’s all these other things. And so, you know, did you ever just feel like, wow, like, it’s amazing that I feel like I’ve communicated my whole life. But now I’ve got to really focus on things like my cadence, clarity, control, and all those things on such a higher level, or does that just kind of come secondary to you? I mean, when you listen to yourself, I mean, what, thoughts come to your mind when you hear yourself on the air for the first time?


Mike Golic Jr.  11:38  

Yeah, I think it is a lot of that. It’s a realization of how much goes into something that I came into this knowing, alright, I do this, I communicate. And I talk pretty well, I’m pretty funny. I do all this so well, naturally. And it definitely helped coming in. But it’s like anything else. When I sit around and go, alright, well, I don’t just want to be good at this, I want to be the best at this. And you start to hone in and you start to have people whose ears you trust, taking you through it and helping you hear these things. And whether it’s, you know, a verbal crutch that you’re falling on, whether it’s something that you’re using to buy time and a spot where you don’t need to, you learn all these things about the way you communicate. And it’s funny, because now I feel like on the other side, because of the work that I’ve been putting in at ESPN and the way that I feel like I’ve started to grow in this, it’s actually made me a better communicator, going back to real life, you know, I focus more on being a better listener, because that tends to be the one thing and probably the best bit of advice I got when I started doing this was really listen to people when you’re on air with them when you’re talking to them, if you’re interviewing them, because that’s where all the best stuff comes from. And so, it taking advice like that, taking principles like that, again, would seem like second nature and day one stuff. But you never really think about as much when you’re just going through your day to day, all of a sudden, I’m focusing on it like a craft and I think it made me a better communicator in the real world outside of work away from microphone.


Brett Bartholomew  13:04  

Yeah, I’m glad you mentioned listening. That was one area where I started growing a little bit more just doing podcasts being a guest on other people is because I noticed sometimes on other people’s shows, it was almost as if they weren’t listening to have a discussion. They were listening just to ask their next question. And so you know, I’d listened back to it. And I, always cringe when I hear myself on audio. But I noticed I looked at my wife. And I’d be like, does this interview like, Does it seem choppy? And she’s like, well, just seems like they have kind of these pre scripted questions. And they’re not really listening. And that’s the funny thing, right? Like communication at the end of the day is about the listener like that’s the foundation of everything. So you can’t really have any kind of discussion, if you’re not really keying in on what somebody else is saying. And that is, I mean, you have to take that approach when you’re playing off the other host of the show, right? Like, what other tips do you kind of keep in the back of your mind when you start to feel like your mind is wandering just to stay focused on the message?


Mike Golic Jr.  14:02  

Yeah, I think just staying engaged is something that just I don’t know nothing other than focusing and reminding myself that a for this purpose is the job and it’s something all right, I’m here for four hours a day, this is what I’m paid to do. I owe the people employing me and everyone else who is a part of this show, I owe them my attention and my focus and that was and I’m like everyone else I say like that pretty much every day in one way shape or form. But it you just try and be mindful of it and be cognizant of it. And if you catch yourself doing it, just sort of pull yourself back to center and remind yourself alright, we’re here to do this job. I’m here to listen to this person and try and get the most out of this that I can it’s like you said and I think it’s an interesting word I hadn’t thought about before. Really treating it all like a negotiation. You know, you’re each bartering something every time you come up to the plate and the only way that you can be fair to both that side and to yourself and that is to be aware of what everyone bring to the table and how that changes throughout the flow of the conversation.


Brett Bartholomew  15:03  

Yeah, yeah. And I think where that changed for me is when I transitioned from collegiate space where, you know, when you tell an athlete to do something, by and large, they kind of have to do it otherwise, their head coach is gonna get involved, yada, yada, yada. But when you start, when I first started working with professional athletes, or even in the private sector, where now people are paying, and it’s a service based industry, it’s a fine line, like as a coach, you still have to tell them what to do, you know, in terms of their best interests, but these are also, you know, grown men and women that can make millions of dollars a year. And at the end of the day, like, you can’t just have that power dynamic over them, where it’s this legitimating authoritarian, like, Hey, do this route. So that’s when I figured I learned that I really had to use that term, like negotiation, it’s a little bit more of a dance. And you’ve got to make sure that people don’t just complete a task, but they also feel good about what they’re doing. Because there’s a difference between commitment and compliance and the effort you’re gonna get like, as a former athlete, does that resonate with you? Or am I way off on that?


Mike Golic Jr.  16:00  

No, I think that does. And I think that that was one thing I always appreciated about when we had the chance to work together was the idea that it wasn’t just being dictated to it was trying to communicate for the means of understanding. And once you’re empowered in that way, once you feel like, alright, someone’s not just telling me something to do. And this is something that we see all the time. And what you touched on is so true now from this macro level, from looking at sports from sort of that 30,000 foot view is you see on the collegiate level, and some of it is by no, by necessity based on just the age and the dynamic. And some of it is just what’s so built into the fabric of it is, more dictation, and you’re just told, this is where you’re supposed to be and when, and then you move up that level. And all of a sudden, it’s alright, well, we have to do this together. Now, like we’ve all done this long enough. And there’s a respect for each other’s expertise that we can learn through this together. It’s a negotiation, but both sides can benefit if they’re willing to listen. And that takes a lot of swallowing pride. And that takes a lot of, you know, not having too much. I guess the hubris or arrogance to think that I’ve got everything figured out. And I think that’s why when you get to that point, and when you get to that spot, everyone benefits way more than when it’s just a one way street.


Brett Bartholomew  17:18  

Right? Yeah. And speaking of pride, attention, arrogance, hubris, you have witnessed and been around a lot of different personalities in the world of sports. How do you think the attitude of athletes and coaches today has evolved over the years in part because of the expansion of TV being in their face, social media podcast? Are you in the camp that really thinks like, hey, this probably hasn’t changed things that much. We’re probably just seeing it on a deeper level, or do you think that because you know, there’s, like almost this eye in the sky everywhere, that it’s almost exacerbated and amplified some of these strong personalities that were already out there?


Mike Golic Jr.  17:57  

Yeah, I think it’s probably closer to the latter. For that, I think we’re just getting more of a window into what’s always been there. Because I don’t think it’s changed a ton in our personally. Now, it’s interesting, I talked to a lot of guys that have been veterans in the NFL that came in during a time that was probably closer to when my dad played. And then were able to enjoy long careers that brought them into when guys closer to my age were coming into the league. And they do talk about some of the things that are different about guys, because of the digital age because of all the attention paid to them. And the way that it’s changed attitudes in some regard. But I still think at the end of the day, the best part about sports is, regardless of all of that, there’s still a level of honesty that exists with inside the locker room. And that, to me is why it’s such a special place is because the feedback is so immediate, and it’s usually so honest, because we don’t have time or the ability to really do anything. Otherwise we’re all trying to work towards this goal. And one of the byproducts of this game is the level of accountability demanded is so high because I hold the physical well being of a lot of other guys in my hands was what I do in every play. But what I think is really changed is from the outside looking in now, it’s definitely made guys more guarded. I mean, hell, it even does that to me in media, there’s so many eyes on us now. And what you do when you’re in the public light at all, and this especially holds true for athletes, that it makes you a little bit more guarded about who you are in public and it makes you a little bit more careful about what’s going on. Because there are a lot of people and I tell kids this all the time when I get the chance to talk to him. There are a lot of people in some of them in the media included who are looking for you to fail because it makes a headline for them. And that’s a scary thought.


Brett Bartholomew  19:33  

Yeah. Oh without question and I can only imagine the level you deal with I mean, like I have a meager I think at the time of this recording like 80,000 Instagram followers and I will get people that will send threats in my DMs if I don’t like send them a free book or something like that. I have people that will just go on and whether it’s the podcasts or YouTube, they’ll just rip something you know, and it’s like so I can only imagine. I mean, I don’t think really people take that into account when they think of athletes and people like yourself or have such a much bigger profile on not only a national but international stage. And so it’s funny when people kind of criticize or condemn and say, Oh, look at how they’re behaving, look at how they’re doing this. It’s like, No, you’re only seeing a snapshot of that, right like, and a perfect example is this, I’d put up a video of some guys training with me prior to NFL training camp. Now, it was a 90 minute session, we did a lot during that time period, but the videos about 20 minutes. And inevitably, somebody’s like, ah, you know, we didn’t see this, we didn’t see that I go, bro, it’s a 20 minute snapshot, you know what I mean? If you want to see all those things come and watch. And I just think that’s an important element for most people to consider is, you know, when you hear about how somebody reacts or approaches media, you’ve got to consider like, what they’re dealing with, and the things that go on behind the scenes. I mean, how did you deal with that? Because we hear a lot about whatever people think of the term, right? Like, whether it’s cyber bullying or trolls or whatever, like, how do you deal with that? Is it something you just kind of like, whatever I brush it off, because you know, you have so much coming at you all the time? Or was there a time where that shit got to you? And you’re just kind of like, Whoa, How do I deal with this at the level I’m at now?


Mike Golic Jr.  21:07  

Yeah, I think it changes by the day, you know, you have your good days and bad, you have days where you’re a little more focused on it, maybe have a little bit too much free time. And all of a sudden, you wander into your mentions, and you see the one thing that kind of hits a nerve, because hell most things that really bother us have enough of a kernel of truth of whether it’s an actual truth, whether it’s an insecurity it preys on. And so thankfully, again, just by sheer volume of dealing with that constant feedback every day, and that’s the good and bad of social media for us is you do kind of get used to that, and you get some of the thick skin that quite frankly, develops in athletics, because you’re getting a lot of the same stuff. You know, I buddies of mine, when we were college athletes who are getting death threats or things that happened in game, you had to get, you know, Campus Security involved in certain instances. And so it definitely builds up over time. But there’s good days and bad days. And so it certainly but you’re right, that’s the danger that comes with it just being a sliver of your life is people get that sliver, but it’s the only access that they have. And so they take that access, they take that thing, and they try and extrapolate it, and a lot of times mistakenly So


Brett Bartholomew  22:14  

yeah, you definitely got to be careful what you share. I mean, just the other day, as we’re recording this, it was my wife’s birthday two days ago, and I had somebody reach out and be like, Yo, what’s your wife’s birthday? Right? Like, why didn’t you post them on social media? I’m like, bro, everybody does not need to know everything about my life, like my personal life. You know, it’s pretty private, I might show elements of it. But my wife’s right down the hall, I can go say happy birthday to her without the world knowing, you know, like, we live in this time now where everybody feels like you have to share everything. How do you determine like, what thoughts? Or what events like you actually feel you should weigh in on? And which ones you should probably be like? Let me sit back and watch this play out a little bit? Do you have kind of a heuristic that you follow there? Or do you just kind of jump in?


Mike Golic Jr.  22:57  

Ah, you want more often than not. And I have a very close friend of mine who I won’t name who also works in sports media? Who has often because we will bounce it off each other a lot of times their strength in numbers. And if it’s a situation where I’m not sure, or they’re not sure, we’ll just shoot a text to the other one and say, Hey, should I do this? And usually the response and the best way that I’ve heard it framed, to kind of use as a heuristic or not is do I feel like giving the rest of my morning to this like, isn’t important enough to me? This conversation, this argument, however big or small It is, is it something that matters enough to me to potentially give the rest of my morning to if I go down this rabbit hole because we see like a social media can be like texting while driving, you’ll look down and think you’re sending quick text. And you’ll look up and wonder where the last quarter mile road has gone. And to me there’s something kind of terrifying about that. And so I think the more I fall back on that, the more often I’ll look at a situation realized, you know what, it’s just not worth it.


Brett Bartholomew  23:57  

Yeah, I think that’s an excellent heuristic. I’m gonna repeat that for anybody listening. He said, Do I feel like given the rest of my morning on this, and I think that was something that almost kind of made me back off Twitter. You know, in the in the performance field, Twitter is just this like, minefield where you know, everybody wants to know your, coaches just always wanted to be like, What do you think of this guy’s technique and speed? And did you see this on the media? And did you see that and I had somebody reach out one time and they’re like, Hey, I haven’t heard you weigh in on this I’m like, honestly, man, I don’t feel like I need to at the end of the day, like my opinions not gonna convert all the unconverted or do this and you know, you do have to start thinking like that you do have to say like, what do I feel strongly enough about? That I do want to have to like I know I feel compelled to have to check in on later in the day. And, if somebody wants to get an argument about you know which exercise is best this that whatever, there’s conferences, they can go debate that on, like, I’m not spending my day on Twitter getting into that. So I love that heuristic. I think that’s super useful. Is there anything else you want to touch on that before we jumped to the next thing because that was a really good point.


Mike Golic Jr.  25:01  

No, but I think what you just said there kind of hits the nail on the head, like when you get to spaces. And this is something I forget what book I read it in. And I wish I could give it the credit it deserves. But I think it was a book called Thinking in bets. And this idea of every situation, every social interaction you get into ends up being a social contract for that situation. And if both parties on both sides haven’t agreed to the terms of that contract, then you get in the area where it gets messy, where one side gets offended, or one side feels attacked, or one side is not exactly sure, the way that we’re exchanging information, the level of honesty that we’re using. And so, Twitter is one of those situations where I don’t know the person on the other side of that most situations, well enough to have agreed to any sort of contract. And so you end up getting people that are just dug in the trenches, and nothing really helps. Whereas when you get into somewhere, personally, when it is an interview setting, when it is a conference like you brought up, we all come there under the agreement that we’re here to get better that we have come here for the search of information to the exchange of information. And then it’s a lot easier when everyone kind of understands the rules, we get into trouble when we get into places where the rules aren’t clearly defined, and whatever the interaction is gonna be.


Brett Bartholomew  26:15  

Yeah, no, and you brought, that’s a great book any and talk about somebody that had to deal with a lot of criticism, and I don’t know where but any dudes who wrote that book, I remember when I was trying to do some research on her when a friend recommended that, oh, my goodness, you start realizing how dark of a place the internet is. I mean, there’s people that called for head. And speaking of calling for heads, it’s funny, I almost feel like whoever’s Manning social media at ESPN, they know the strength and conditioning world too well, because all you have to do to get basically everybody in this field to react is posted a training clip from some athletes, Instagram, and you will just be littered with comments of that’s not a real squat. That’s a half rep. I mean, coaches just go nuts. And then the next minute, it’s all over social media, and they say this is the problem with this crap. You know, the media picks this up and like, I don’t think people really realize this, Mike, and maybe I’m wrong. So check me because you have way more experience in than I am like, I think people don’t understand that a lot of times what shared by large outlets, in part is to get a reaction. And so these people they get on and they criticize maybe something somebody posts and they don’t really realize like, oh, well, you’re actually helping the spread of that information. And that knee jerk reaction is exactly what they were looking for there. I mean, is there a truth to that? I mean, where do you see that take place?


Mike Golic Jr.  27:31  

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you hear it all the time. And it’s sort of a big, overarching word. But there’s a lot of math involved in this, like, you hear the algorithm thrown around all the time. But it’s true when something pings like that, and gets a lot of interactions are all these measurables that social media sites give you the things that get the most traffic get shared, you see kind of the same aggregators and big social accounts for various networks, or leagues or outlets, they all operate kind of under that same system, like they’re there to get the most user engagement possible. And so if they see a video that’s firing around the internet, getting a ton of run, you best believe they’re not going to miss out on the party there. And that kind of is true for everyone, if you look around long enough. So yeah, I absolutely think there’s a lot of truth to that, like we all feed into the machine when we give it our time and attention.


Brett Bartholomew  28:19  

And then there’s a really great book called crystallizing public opinion where, you know, the author, basically, he’s the father of basically, PR, right public relations, and he talks about a debate is always going to draw a bigger crowd than anything else. And so, you know, we kind of feed into this culture of monomania whenever you share something and then also you share something that makes people angry now, like, this is an interesting piece too, because going along with that, coaches, and I feel like it you know, I use the word coaches, but this is relatable to anything, it’s kind of like, this is a constant thing I have to put out there almost as a reminder, like, even though I use the term coach and athlete, sometimes that’s because I’m a coach, and I work with athletes, but this is kind of the fundamental construct of human beings. I feel like they always belabor millennials, right? or social media or something else like, at what point if somebody’s blaming all these reasons, they can’t connect? Or they can’t do something? Like, at what point? Is it just an inability of that person, the leader or the manager or the coach or whatever? An inability for them to adapt? You know, at what point is it their fault, where it’s like, all right, at some point, maybe the issue is me, it’s not millennials, because there’s always a generation or at some point, there’s something else like, what do you think on that piece?


Mike Golic Jr.  29:31  

Yeah, I think blame works on a scale where it’s never zero or 100. Right? Like I think if you’re in a situation right there, and there’s a problem, chances are everyone’s contributed in some way, shape or form. However, you want to wait that based on the situation and I think using leadership as one of the ways to weight it is interesting, because in most situations, that person who has risen to a position of power or a position of influence enough to be deemed the leader in the group, like you tend to shoulder more of that because in theory, you are someone who has honed their communication skills a little bit more, or has become enough of an expert in a field to kind of be the authority figure. And so, yeah, I think in those situations, we understandably, put more of a, you know, I almost put blame in quotes, because, again, it’s not something to me that shouldn’t be that binary. But I do think there is part of it, where, and this seems to be the tendency, I always say, I’m kind of waiting for the next group that comes up. I think it’s Gen Zers now would be the ones that are technically under me, since I fall into that millennial pack. Like, I’m waiting for the first thing that they do as a collective, that I go, Oh, man, I can’t stand you guys for that. Because that’s what I’ll know I’ve really arrived, because we all kind of just tend to go through that cycle. And we see it play out through history. But yeah, I think communication solves a lot of that, like I deal with people every day that are older than me, and the ones that communicate really well. It doesn’t matter kind of erases the gap and a lot of it.


Brett Bartholomew  30:57  

Yeah. And that’s always an interesting piece, too, is you communicate every day. And I had to remind somebody one time they were like, listen, I’d love to have you on the podcast. They’re like, but you just kind of talked about coaching, right? And I’m like, Well, no talking about communication. I’m like, that pretty much relates to everybody. And he’s like, Oh, I guess I never really thought of that. But you’re right. We’re in terms of the next generation. It’s almost like a Saturday Night Live skit and that Mike like if they had like four people, and they’re like, right, this person’s Gen X, this person’s a millennial. This person is did you say you think it’s Gen Z? Is that what you said? 


Mike Golic Jr.  31:29  

I think that’s the next one. 


Brett Bartholomew  31:30  

Yeah. So I mean, if you had to make up something that everybody’s gonna bitch about for Gen Z right now, what’s it going to be the way they eat their tacos? What’s it going to be? What do you think Gen Z is going to be?


Mike Golic Jr.  31:39  

Yeah, I think it’s going to be the way that they’re always on their like, instead of their iPhone or anything like that. It’s going to be the monocle that’s implanted into their eyes, and now they’re never making eye contact with me. They’re always texting their friends with telepathy or whatever sort of strange technology they’ve developed in that


Brett Bartholomew  31:57  

Yea it’s kind of like Jack’s from Mortal Kombat, I think the kids are always going to be playing with their bionic arms instead of paying attention. And that’s just going to start a rampage and they’re gonna get really angry because now we it

‘s not that we just don’t know how to communicate. Now everybody’s just breaking things with their bionic arms. 


Hey, everybody, we’re gonna get right back into this episode. I don’t want you to miss any of this. But I did want to remind you that as part of the art of coaching audience, if you use the code Brett 20, again, that’s my first name, b, r, e, t, t, two, zero, Brett 20. At checkout at, anything they have there, you’re gonna get $20 off your first order. If you’re not familiar with Momentus, just reminder, Momentus is the premier sponsor of The Art of coaching podcast. In short, they’re the reason I’m able to bring this information to you guys for free. They helped me cover the cost of the podcast and all the other content that I’m able to get to you guys. So you know, their support is huge. Now, if you’re not familiar with the products, they have a wide range everything from their absolute zero grass fed whey. And again, guys, this is all whey isolate, the purest form of whey ArtFire grass fed whey, not only that they have a 100% plant protein. For those of you they can’t do whey, they have strength recovery, and they’re always coming out with new and unique products. Now, one of the reasons I partnered with Momentus is I am a minimalist when it comes to any of this stuff. I’m a big believer that consistency in your training, sleep, hydration, and just good nutrition are the most powerful supplements. But there are certain staples that we can’t get around. And we have to be able to source in the most responsible way possible. And that we also have to just be able to add in through supplementary form whether that’s because we’re busy lifestyles, because we have digestion issues, any number of factors. And so, you know, protein and fish oil is really the only thing that I take every now and then I might experiment with some other stuff that’s all natural, but I’m not really I’m from the Midwest. So there’s a running joke that we kind of grew up on steak and milk. But Momentus is absolutely something I am buying 100%. And again, if you just use the code, Brett 20 at anything on, or you can check out The Art of coaching momentous link on the show notes. You’re going to be hooked up. Thanks again for your support. And now back to the episode.


Mike Golic Jr.  34:18  

That’s really and you know what it is? It’s like I say all that because I’m trying to concoct something that I won’t fully be able to comprehend. But like, I think that’s the core of it, right is none of us like feeling dumb. Like none of us like feeling like we’re not in control, or we don’t understand the situation. And you see, there’s a ton and I’m guilty of that when I get in a situation where all of a sudden, I feel like the other person I’m dealing with the group I’m dealing with knows more than me, there’s some feeling of like guilt or apprehension like, oh man, but you hear all these successful people always talk and they say, I’d rather be the dumbest one in the room because that means I’m in the right room. I’m in the position to learn something but in a lot of cases, that’s an intimidating it’s an easy kinda like say it plays really well on a book cover and stuff like that. But it’s a hard thing to put yourself in that situation. And so you go through generationally, and you know, I do a show with my 56 year old father every day. And there’s things about technology and the things that are coming up now that he doesn’t understand. And thankfully, he’s humble enough to ask questions, if there’s things he doesn’t know. But I’ve been in plenty of situations again, where if I’m in a situation where I feel like there’s a knowledge gap, all of a sudden I start to realize, oh, man, maybe that’s kind of where some of this dismissal comes from. I just don’t want to feel dumb.


Brett Bartholomew  35:33  

Yeah, well, I mean, and you framed it up perfectly. I was gonna say, you know, people inherently crave respect some level of predictability or control, safety, security, and, that ties into their emotions, right, like how much of the conflict that we deal with, whether it’s in the workplace, whether it’s athletes, coaches, whether it’s anything comes from the role of emotions, and just kind of what we feel I know, your father is a huge influence on you. And obviously, you both played sports at a supremely high level, did doing that help you kind of with that emotional control, like not getting too high, not getting too low, just being able to write it out? And like, does that help you as a communicator? You think?


Mike Golic Jr.  36:11  

Oh, yeah, I definitely think there is something unique about sports, like it’s this weird crucible, and people always say it’s a microcosm of life. I really think it puts you at extremes. And I think, especially in football, because you’re forced is so specifically in that sport, to focus or else someone else can get hurt, like I played offensive line. And if I wasn’t focused, and I didn’t go out there and accomplish my job, there was a chance that my buddy the running back or the quarterback got hurt as a result of that. And so that level of focus when you know, it’s tied to someone else, kind of makes you go, alright, you know, I’m in this hostile environment, there’s a ton of stuff going on. Let me focus on the few things that I need to focus on to be successful. And I definitely think there’s some transfer there.


Brett Bartholomew  36:53  

Now, let’s talk college football a minute. And I obviously, you know, you’re at Notre Dame, I’m a Husker. You know, we all know how that turned out. We can go into college football history, if you want. But talk to me a little bit about you know, where you think that college football landscape is, and I know we have some international listeners right now that are gonna be like, Ah, screw college football. But this is a space you know, guilty pleasure of mine. Some I still resonate by, it’s probably the sport that I actually follow most avidly. And having worked in there a little bit as well. But talk to me about where you think the college football landscape is gonna look like, this year and some of the things that you think are especially exciting about watching the sport now.


Mike Golic Jr.  37:28  

Yeah, I think what’s exciting is and you’re you’re seeing this trickle up to the NFL too, but kids are a so talented now everything is shifted down a level. So the approach that used to be reserved for pro sports, eventually burned into college sports and what eventually bled into college sports blood into high school sports. And so you get a group of kids that come in so physically and mentally prepared that they get on the field fast. And so you see every year this influx of young, exciting talent that I think is at a base level as a fan super appealing Now, what that means for what we’re doing to kids, that next level down, who are all of a sudden kind of being forced to grow up a little sooner and having different stressors put on them than I ever had to deal with. That can certainly be a debate, but as far as what it means for the product of college sports, you do get the Trevor Lawrence’s of the world that show up onto the scene to a tongue of Iowa, the year before right now can a soul was the guy who was the left tackle for Oregon this year that started as a true freshman last year and had such an immediate impact like to see how far athletes have come even since you know, six or seven years ago now than I was in college athletics. It’s pretty cool to see and the maturity that comes along with handling everything that happens with that. So I think that I think the development of the college football playoff has made for an interesting new round of debates but it has certainly made for an exciting product like college football may only have four teams that make the end of the year playoff but each and every week has this sort of elimination feel to it it starts you know in week one this year Auburn is going to play Oregon and Oregon comes from a PAC 12 that has been left out of the party and a lot of different ways in the college football landscape and probably feels like they have to wear the shield of the PAC 12 on their back as they go into this one and so you get early season compelling matchup like that you get that Do or Die feel every week that I think is unique to football but it definitely has an even more heightened feel in college football.


Brett Bartholomew  39:27  

That’s a good analysis. I mean, I’m a little bitter you didn’t take the bait with my jab at Notre Dame in Nebraska but whatever. But I felt like I wanted


Mike Golic Jr.  39:35  

Hey, listen, I’m high on Scott frost and so are a lot of people at the network. I had dinner last us one of our best college and pro analysts say he’s Nebraska is his sleeper pick to make the playoffs. So that’s a wide open side of the big 10 No doubt about it. 


Brett Bartholomew  39:48  

Yeah, I’m a little bitter though, man. You know what one of their assistant coaches a while ago when they were at UCF together and asked you know, he’s like, Hey, would you send a copy of your book, and I sent one for coach Ross too. And I’m like, Hey, Coach Ross. I’m a Nebraska kid born and bred as well would love your opinion on this. Thanks for all you do for the state never heard back from him. So I doubt he’s gonna listen to this, but you gotta give him some heat from me. If you ever have a chance to break bread with him just be like, Hey, this guy is pretty pissed that he hasn’t heard about his book yet. On a serious note, like with college football, everybody talks about recruiting being you know, the biggest thing, right? Like all of you get this repeat. And we know like, I mean, you see it as a player, I saw it as a strength coach, so many of these five stars and whatever stars never even pan out. But I almost think more interesting than recruiting now I think the thing that nobody’s really talking about on a general level, I know you guys covered on the network’s is the transfer rule, you know, because now it’s almost like a free agency. That’s been you talked about all the things that go up into the NFL and influence up and down. But talk to me about what you think there’s transfer rule and explain it to the audience a little bit, if you don’t mind for anybody not familiar. Because the reason I want you to talk about this a little Mike is because when I deal with coaches, and a lot of what I talked about now is buy in behavior change, the number one thing they say is like, Listen, man, we’re dealing with athletes now that they come in. And we just know, we’ve got to communicate with them differently, because they can basically bounce. And so we’ve really got to find out what drives them. And we’ve got to spend the majority of our time really like almost kind of filtering out ones that have not behavior issues, but like people that just really aren’t clear on their focus, because we don’t know if they’re gonna abandon the team later on. Can you talk about the complexities of the transfer rule and where you see that going and impacting the sport?


Mike Golic Jr.  41:29  

Yeah, so like you said, the start the transfer rule, as it sits now basically allows for guys to enter something called the transfer portal that’s a little bit different. Now the Undergraduate Transfer rules haven’t really changed. If you transfer while you’re still in your initial four years of eligibility, you’re usually required to sit here now what we’ve seen a lot more is these hardship waivers that guys can get signed, that’ll make them eligible to play immediately Justin Field, who’s going to be the quarterback at Ohio State this year, who was in Georgia, the year prior as a true freshman got one of those, and now he’s going to be eligible to play right away to Ohio State. So you’re seeing a lot more of that the transfer portal that everyone hears about now is one of the big buzzwords, just allows kids to test the water of, alright, who might be interested in me if I’m transferring, without having to tell their coaches, which was something I only learned over recently, as a caveat to what the transfer portal was. And that part to me is, interesting. And it’s a double edged sword, because a lot of the player in me looks at this and says, Yes, this is a positive, there are so many guys that I know that I saw, that found themselves in situations where they were sold a false bill of goods, and now they’re in a spot where when I was playing, you didn’t really have a way out that didn’t have you sitting a year and cost you one of the precious few years of college football. That’s the big difference between college and pro, you only get four years of playing on the field, you can do it in five years, or however many you get if you read through, but you’ve got a limited window. And so for guys that found themselves in bad situations, we used to just fall back on these cliches and say, Well, you got to work your way through Well, you got to this or that? Well, you know what the coach may have also lived, the coach may have gotten fired, the coach may have taken a different job that he wasn’t initially, you know, telling me about when I came to this particular school. And so part of me thinks, yeah, it levels the playing field. But I also want to do the right thing and hear out coaches on the other side, who say, yeah, it is changing the way that we have to communicate. It’s changing the way that we have to build teams and recruit coming in, which is difficult, but you’re also dealing with a system where most of those guys are paid and paid handsomely in a system where that’s going to be the disparity between players and coaches. Pardon me, again, we’ve kind of touched on this before, when you’re in the position of leadership, and especially the leadership of kids that are between 18 and 22 years old, more of the onus probably should be on you to do a better job of communicating to go out of your way to make sure all right, we are communicating everything as fairly and honestly as we can in the situation,


Brett Bartholomew  44:08  

right. And that’s one thing that drives me nuts about coaching culture is, you know, what I want to say when I hear this stuff, and again, complaining is oh, so what are you saying? Like you really have to like work harder at understanding kids. Well, rightfully so. You know, coaches, I think people forget that, like coaches are not always forthright. But there’s this thing where, right if we turn on the news, and we hear about a CEO of a Fortune 500 company, or somebody from some big tech firm, or something else, and they’re involved in some kind of scandal, or they’re, well, it’s it’s kind of business as normal. We expect that we’ve heard that a lot. But people act surprised when they hear that a kid might not be treated well or that you said was sold a false bill of goods or that a coach and do anything because there’s almost this like halo effect, right? There’s this martyrdom that kind of follows coaching culture and almost kind of protects it. Sure, like when we hear something like it’s just not that same kind of quotidian Oh, I expected that to happen. It’s almost like coaches get a pass. And then it’s easy to go back and blame the kids again, it’s like, how do you call yourself a leader? If you don’t expect this to be a two way negotiation. I mean, and not, to mention the fact that you’re dealing with adolescents. I mean, people from the age of 18 to 24, are really still considered adolescence. And one thing I talk about in a lot of my lectures and in my book is like, the brain, the part of the brain that is rational is not even fully formed yet, the prefrontal cortex, like these people are literally a different animal at certain periods of their life. And anybody can fact check that prefrontal cortex usually fully developed around 25 of courses, outliers. But so coaches should have to take ownership and say, Hey, I’m not always dealing with rational people, they’re easily influenced, they may not have listened, they may have gotten caught up in their own hype, like, a lot of that does come back to the coaches.


Mike Golic Jr.  45:52  

It certainly does. And the one thing that I always do empathize with with coaches is, you’re right, you are not dealing at times with rational players. And a lot of this. But at the same time, I’m always kind of cognizant of this was something I didn’t really notice until after, when I went back and talked to my coaches is, we talk a lot about pay for play, because there’s so much money in college football right now. But that’s also created stress on that end, too. Like I knew coaches on my staff at Notre Dame who are paying two and three mortgages at a time because they’ve been fired from other jobs, or the staff that had been with had moved or gone somewhere else. And so they had to uproot their lives and their families, like, what you’ve done, the influx of money in college football is, you have asked a bunch of coaches that are well paid in a lot of instances, but are still doing this as a means to feed their family. You’ve asked them to feed their families on the backs and the whims of what you just said, 18 to 24 year olds that are still developing. And there’s part of that from that. And that’s kind of a terrifying thought and with the way that university turnover college coaches so rapidly now, there’s a sense of urgency that I think in a lot of instances has made coaches worse teachers, because you’re coaching in a lot of instances scared you’re coaching for your job. And so instead of focusing alright, here’s the thing that I know, we knew just need to do to succeed, is here’s the things I know that are gonna get us not beat. And those may not sound like they’re worlds apart. But when you see it, apply it on a day to day basis, they end up making a huge difference. And so it’s a unique stress, and it’s different. And as people rightly point out, it’s the better of the two because you’re still being paid money for your services in this field in a way that the kids aren’t in a lot of this, but it’s a unique stress what’s asked of them and because you know, they got a boss too, and it creates a weird environment.


Brett Bartholomew  47:39  

Right? Well, it’s like I think it was I’ll leave it said it right. He’s like, it’s not the mountains that wear you out. It’s the pebbles in your shoe. So even though people are getting paid handsomely in some respects, it’s not necessarily that right. It’s the constant moving of your family. I mean, my wife and I collectively, like I’ve moved 15 times in my life, and that’s through just college grad school internships, a job promotion, you know, this and that. And it’s part of it’s just being in the strength and conditioning industry, you talked about turnover, you know, that’s something where it gets even stickier Because oftentimes, strength coaches can’t directly influence wins and losses. Now, they play a role. They’re a cog in the machine, right, like dumb training practices can mitigate a lot of things. But it gets even worse for strength coaches talk to me like about, just again, as somebody that’s a former player, and now somebody that reports it and sees it on a broader national stage. Talk to me about your perception of the role of the strength coach. Now, in this realm, I mean, we hear about coaches saying like, it’s one of the most important hires. Yet whenever you turn on the TV, one thing that always inflames our industry, Mike is strength coaches are always kind of like projected as cheerleaders, right like Do you still think that’s the popular sentiment? And if so, what can coaches do strength coaches to kind of make themselves be taken a little bit more seriously on the national stage?


Mike Golic Jr.  48:56  

Yeah, so it’s interesting, right? Because we see what again, going back to what we talked about before, what plays well, on social media, it’s the strength coaches, breaking boards over each other’s backs before a game or giving some crazy hype speech out on the field that ends up getting shared and ends up doing well. And so people like that everyone likes good positive attention and feedback. What you’re talking about on the other side is absolutely true. Anyone who’s been inside of the machine understands that outside of the head coach, the person that sees and gets to affect, especially at a foundational level when you’re talking about guys whose bodies are still developing, you know, the strength training approach in college is so different from professionals because you’re dealing with guys that are just growing into man bodies, versus guys that are already there. Like the strength coach sees more of the guys during the year than probably anyone else on the staff and so that influence both physically and from the tone they send emotionally and mentally and what the messaging is, so invaluable. I don’t know if it’s providing more access to that part. You see It’ll put videos up from inside their strength and conditioning room. But I think making more of those teachable moments available making more of those things that are a part of the winning process. You know, we talked to Bill O’Brien on the show just just yesterday, the head coach of the Houston Texans who said, he would love to see the joint practices that NFL teams do during the preseason, televised because as he said, you would see the thought that goes into each period and how it’s planned out each practice every rep, and how much it matters to both teams. And he thought there’s value in that, I think you could probably apply that here and say, If you brought people inside more of those teachable moments, instead of just, you know, the ones that look really flashy and great, maybe then the outside world understand, but we all kind of know,


Brett Bartholomew  50:46  

well stated. I mean, essentially, what you’re saying there, if I heard you correctly, is if they could show and use a term teachable moments, I think of process and context, right? A lot of times we only see highlights, we see snapshots, but we don’t see the process and context. And that’s where the learning takes place. Right?


Mike Golic Jr.  51:04  

Absolutely. I think that’s the fun way to do it is as much of that as you can provide, the more everyone learns. And the one thing that we’re kind of seeing is, people want to know that stuff. Like the amount of information that we’re given to the outside world, I think is starting to breed a smarter generation and a smarter group of fans that understands I have all this information. And I want more of it. People have been given access. And you know, that Pandora’s box doesn’t close and go the other way now. So I imagine there’d be an appetite for that


Brett Bartholomew  51:35  

is this smarter generation, the one with bionic arms and the Nano chip in the brain that you were referring to earlier?


Mike Golic Jr.  51:41  

Yes, exactly. They’re tearing my arms off, as they asked me for more informed videos and content for the internet. 


Brett Bartholomew  51:47  

Yeah Makes sense. I mean, listen, you make an excellent point. Again, as people, there’s a hunger for that. So here’s, like, a hot seat question for you then. And I’ve been on you about this for a minute. I want to know, then, like, you know, I always say this. And at first it was jokingly Some friends and I were sitting around, we’re watching ESPN. And I said, You know what, man, they have an NFL insider at this insider that specialists Oh, now a former GM is doing this still no love for the strength coach, right? Like when you hear about the injuries that go on at training camps, or you hear about things that go on here, when you show like, you know, there’s always something about somebody’s training regimen or whatever. I want to know what it’s going to take to get I don’t even know what you’d call it. Where’s the en ESPN insider strength and conditioning coach segment like how do I apply for this role? Because I want in


Mike Golic Jr.  52:32  

Yeah, no, listen, and you know what. I think that’s something and I credit. Now it’s not the exact same field, but I think it’s similar in the understanding of an area that is so vital that is underserved is physical therapy, PTs to find your bell who works for us and who is our injury experts at ESPN does a lot of great work as someone who covers a lot of this as someone who’s very close with a lot of strength coaches. And so I think her really starting to carve out that voice and she has had to battle for it. And she has worked extremely hard across a wide variety of sports to try and apply that knowledge and give that information to people that you know I think as it comes up and as more people like yourself and other voices in this area come to form it’s going to be because people like to find your who are in it doing it now have really started to I think create a place like we were talking today about Andrew luck’s. The lower leg injury that he’s dealing with right now that started off labeled as a calf strain, and has now turned into some sort of ankle or bone. According to Dr. Jim Irsay, which is absolutely tongue firmly planted in cheek but the first person I texted and the first person we call to try and get on the phone was to find you because she has such a unique understanding of this area. And so I think for things like that it is really focusing on alright, we know where can this be a useful part of the conversation? And I think that’s definitely one area that probably goes underserved. 


Brett Bartholomew  53:57  

Yeah, well, I mean, yeah, it’s awesome that you have the injury expert, I just think that the performance expert, I’m going to continue to lobby for that I’m gonna implore my listeners to just pepper your social media, and ESPN with you know, just saying like, we want a performance expert on there, because here’s the thing, like, you know, we’re talking about this gets brought up a lot like, what most people don’t understand is the politics that go on on that level, even in the performance space. Often times, strength coaches are hamstrung by head sport coaches, or even people up or down the chain, in terms of what they can do. You know, there’s a lot of times where and you see there’s just a lot of competitiveness in the field, you know, athletes will come back and you know, I’ll say, Hey, what are you doing in season or have a chat with their strength coach because you tried to integrate and work together, and they can’t do some of the things they want to do, you know, because they might have a GM or a coach. It’s like, Hey, I’ve won four Super Bowls. This is how we did it. This is how I want you to run it in the weight room. And so now they’ve completely taken the expertise away from that individual, let alone the autonomy. And then the team will get you know, it can get crushed by injuries, non contact injuries, and then everybody wants to point the finger at the strength coach. And so they’re just, I mean they need me to look at the Achilles and calf and hamstring. I mean, a lot of this comes down to the length of the CBA. I mean, these guys don’t get along offseason. And then they have to go back and forth between their team strengthing coach it conditioning coach or people in the offseason like myself, and you know, that might be running on different surfaces, an athlete the other day, I’m like, Hey, man, I heard your hamstring kind of was acting up on you. And he’s like, Yeah, you know? And I said, well, in the offseason, like, Where were you? Were you doing sprint work? What kind of surface were you running on? And I just don’t think a lot of people understand the nuances of this. It’s not as simple as like, oh, somebody did too many of this exercise. And what’s that happen? It’s also complex. It’s something you know, but I just feel like it’s harder for the greater audience to understand. Does that make sense?


Mike Golic Jr.  55:44  

No, definitely. And I think that’s, kind of a constant challenge for all of us is to take a complex subject like that, and to take complex points, and turn them into bytes. Because unfortunately, and you know, podcasting is one arena where we can have this longer form conversation, but when we get on the radio, it’s got to be alright, what’s the bite, then unfortunately, in the the basis for all of ours is, even as we have a bigger appetite for knowledge, when you get back to a place like radio, it’s still this economy, a time where so many people are flipping through so quickly, that we’ve got to constantly fight that battle of finding a way to make sure it is couched in a way and wrapped in a way and made palatable enough to where someone’s going to remain interested long enough to keep the dial tuned that way. Like it’s a very weird feedback system, for sure. But like we said, the knowledge appetite is certainly there. So finding spots where it’s relevant to put in there, I think, is probably one of the next steps right in the way we cover. Yeah, that’s


Brett Bartholomew  56:41  

a beautiful point. And that was actually my rebuttal, when some people would say, hey, why don’t we have coaches or people like this explaining it? I said, Because, listen, a lot of times coaches like to hear themselves talk. And they have this curse of knowledge, where, you know, they get so mad if they hear a sound bite, like I think a dietician was on the news the other day, explaining how, you know, gut health, and she went into this really simple discussion, boom, once again, on Twitter, people were like, I can’t believe she dumbed it down like this. And what I want to say is you’re not her audience, guys, like the people at home, who have no background knowledge in this and are not subject matter experts are the ones that they’re trying to get to understand this, like, quit getting offended, because they didn’t use the scientific nomenclature that you think is consistent, they have three seconds to get it out there trying to talk to the average person, and like, how do you think we bridge that gap? Like, I mean, do you think that just, it’s almost like, it’s buyer beware equivalent, like you just have to know like, and you mentioned it a couple of times you sign a contract, when you decide to watch TV, or you decide to turn into a radio show that like, don’t expect so damn much out of everything? Because there’s, like, it’s just impossible to cover it all, given the temporal context.


Mike Golic Jr.  57:52  

Yeah, I think that really is just it is, on the side of the people that are producing that content, I think at some point, it is just having that ability have something we talked about before, which is to just sort of tune out the noise when you know, alright, this person just clearly doesn’t understand the constraints of this given medium. But if I’m speaking to them in another medium, if I’m speaking to them on a podcast, or I have the chance to respond online, I can show a level of understanding that kind of takes those fears and takes those doubts, and puts them away, because all we can do is work with, you know, to the best of our ability within the constraints of whatever platform we’re on at the time, you know, you deal with the audience that’s right in front of you, you know, you’re not giving the same talk in front of an audience of people, as you would inside the book verbatim. You know, you’ve got a lot more time to work with inside the pages of the book than you do when you’re speaking in front of a crowd of people. And so we just work for the audience and is in front of us time being and try our best to understand but tune out for self preservation, the audience that chiming in from around


Brett Bartholomew  58:55  

yeah, there’s definitely elements of like ego laziness and impatience. I mean, I think, again, you’ve know this at such a higher level than I do. But my one of my biggest frustrations in the past year is all I have somebody on Instagram that wants me to explain something super complex. And I’ll be like, Hey, brother, like, I’d love to give me a 300 page DM here, but that’s why I talked about on the book, or have you checked out the podcast and I find sometimes, no matter what medium Mike, I try to meet people on the podcast or YouTube or social media or a book. Everybody just wants it explained their way how they want it right now. And there’s also just this element of knowing that you’re never going to please, everybody. And that’s part of being a strong communicator, too. Right? Like doing your best to be considerate, but also not getting so wrapped up in like every which way you could shape a message because speaking to everybody speaking to nobody.


Mike Golic Jr.  59:45  

Yeah, exactly. And you kind of hit on the word at some point here. But this idea of ego like we all have it, and if we’re not careful, it can get kind of bruise easily as you’re going through all these different phases. It’s Having the self confidence to say, alright, I understand what I’ve put into this process, I understand the information and the work that I put into mastering whatever my craft is, I’m not ignorant enough to say that I know it all, but I’m self confident enough to go into these arenas. Understand there are always going to be people that disagree. And when people do it civilly, that’s great. There’s room for growth. And when people choose to be ugly about it, then, at some point, like we said earlier, you have to pick and choose those battles and decide, alright, this person feels pretty dug in. This is one drop in a very large bucket. Why am I going to waste my time on that when I understand and believe wholeheartedly in the things that I’m saying?


Brett Bartholomew  1:00:39  

Yeah, I love that. That’s a perfect way to wrap a bow on it. Mike, when we think about career progression, and I’ve really enjoyed watching, you continue to progress and everything that you’ve continued to do. And I know, it’s only the start for you like, what’s next for you? I mean, now, you have your hands on a little bit of everything on ESPN. I mean, obviously, that was a hard enough transition going from athlete to this, I’m sure. But what’s the next step? And what have you learned about just transitioning and continual career growth during this process?


Mike Golic Jr.  1:01:08  

I think the one thing I’ve learned, it’s funny, because there’s many different kinds of people as you’re exposed to in the world of athletics, you still are all kind of in to an extent, cut from the same cloth. And so now getting into this new field, I meet people who come from backgrounds outside of sports, I meet people from so many different vantage points, and you very quickly realize that if you’re doing things the right way, the growth really never stopped. And so I’m fortunate and really extremely grateful to be doing as many different things as I am. And for me, it’s part of a process of whittling it down and saying, alright, what are the things I love doing the most? And then how can I take the things that I enjoy doing the most, and make them better and spin them for not just do what works well, and now my favorite people are the ones that constantly look for places to innovate for places to where they can put their own unique stamp on whatever’s going on. And those tend to be the people that, you know, whether they get the praise now or in the future, changed so much and do so much for other people. And so those are the people I’ve sought out. And that’s certainly what I’d like to keep doing is, you know, find the things amongst all the things I’m fortunate to do right now that I’m really the most passionate about, and then figure out alright, how can I help further that?


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:24  

Well, you use the word fortunate a couple of times there, Mike. And I know for a fact I feel extremely fortunate. I’m sure our listeners do, too, that you spent so much time with us today, man, we covered a lot of topics. This was more than I could ask for. I really appreciate you taking your time I know to go from such a massive stage of ESPN, to my measly podcast man that not only shows commitment and character, but that just shows true class. If people want to continue to follow you, if they want to support the shows, and everything. You’re doing all that like what’s the best route? How can they get in touch? Anything you can share there?


Mike Golic Jr.  1:02:57  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for me personally @mgolicjr57, on Twitter and Instagram is the social feeds you can find me on more often than not Golic and Wingo. You mentioned the radio show, I’m a part of a six to 10am, Eastern, every Monday through Friday on ESPN, radio, ESPN, to ESPN news, all that good stuff. And then, you know, I’ll hopefully be popping up on any number of your screens in the fall. I do. Rankings reaction show for college football on Twitter on Tuesdays, once the college football playoff rankings start. And so if you’ve got a screen, chances are I’m going to try and weasel my way on it. But it’s a blast. And so if anyone feels so inclined to come check it out. I hope you have a good time.


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:39  

Yeah, anybody that didn’t think what he said could have been taken in a really inappropriate context. He’s going to weasel his way on your screen that can be get really scary. Really quickly. Nobody Yeah, buddy. No, I appreciate you. Once again, Mike, and everybody make sure that you support him. And as always, thanks for listening to the show. 


Wait, wait, wait, wait before you go. Glad I caught you. Listen, there’s a lot of people that think that I just have social media, podcast and YouTube. Guys are so many more resources. If this stuff interests you. First of all, if you haven’t checked out the book, I’d be honored if you would, it’s on Amazon worldwide. It’s called Conscious coaching. We have a free Field Guide. There’s so many resources. I try to provide online free ebooks, free downloads. If you just go to Check out the free resources. There’s also online courses so whether you’re interested in the coaching communication psychology side, we have an online course called Bought In. That is a great resource. It’s research backed and it applies to every profession, you do not have to be a strength and conditioning coach. Literally I use the term strength coach and athlete because that’s what I do. But just like you read an article or a book by a former Navy SEAL or somebody that owns a company in Silicon Valley, all these things are relatable to other fields. Also, if you’re looking more into career management, whether that’s you trying to learn more about marketing, contract negotiation, networking, resume writing, all these things that go into the messiness of trying to create and cultivate a sustainable career, we have a course for that as well. It’s called Valued. Both of those are found on on Remember the podcast and all these other things, you know, I can only share so much and we try to do it in so many other mediums. So please, I’d be honored at your support. We try to make sure and donate a percentage of the proceeds every year to either fight Alzheimer’s, cancer research we, donate to local police forces, we try to do a lot of different things and we can only do that with your support. Thanks again for listening to the podcast and I hope you enjoy those resources.

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