In Art Of Coaching Podcast

On Episode 25 of the Art Of Coaching Podcast I am joined by Calin Butterfield who is US Ski & Snowboarding’s High Performance Coordinator.

Calin is one of the most unique individuals I know in regards to how he tackles problems, as well as how he treats people. Highly committed, loyal, detail oriented and personable- as coach he is a true asset in every sense of the word.

On this episode he gives us his perspective on skill evolution as a coach & why posing as an expert is overrated.

Topics Covered On This Episode

  • Vulnerability leading to trust
  • Taking ownership of something that doesn’t have direction
  • The soft skills of coaching
  • How can we evaluate someone on soft skills
  • Why being an expert is overrated
  • How does Calin dealin with moving around and how has it impacted his family

To Connect with Calin reach out on Linkedin (

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Calin Butterfield  0:01  

You have to be a good technician of your craft culture is not something that we can just really create in a pocket, we are in a subjective field that is, they try and we try to measure objectively, which is virtually impossible. Like how can we actually know that we are developing these skills or quote unquote, score ourselves on these


Brett Bartholomew  0:20  

things. What you just heard is a little bit of a preview of what’s come on this episode with Coach Calin Butterfield. Now, I know you feel like I probably say this at the beginning of every episode, but Kalin is one of those guys that can absolutely make your mind warp. And this is an individual that doesn’t just go down rabbit holes, he creates them. And my time working with Calin was some of the most rewarding in my life, because this is somebody that doesn’t just read deeply, he applies deeply. And then he deconstructs everything he thinks he knows on a regular basis and kind of just goes back and retests every bias and assumption. I mean, this is somebody that sometimes I have to remind my Calin, you’re constantly beating yourself up, you’re far more competent than you think you’re one of the best coaches I’ve seen in terms of how you break these things down and you’re just pure intellectual capacity mates with your ability to make people laugh. So guys, it’s somebody that you’ve got to pay deep attention to, 


I’ll tell you this, if you are 15 minutes in, and you don’t already have a page of notes granted, after he goes over his intro a little bit, you’re missing something. So make sure to go back and just don’t just absorb the key themes here. Try to really pay attention to how Calin thinks how he breaks stuff down. And remember, if you guys want any more information, has a ton of resources, a ton of stuff. Calin is somebody that I’ll be very honest. When I put out some of my courses, I asked him for early feedback, and I said Hey, am I clear on these concepts? Do you understand which ones do you think are BS because he’s a guy that no matter what he’s one of those friends we all need. If you put out something that’s bullcrap, he will let you know. So welcome to. I want to introduce you to somebody that is my filter, somebody who is a friend and confidant in many ways, guys, I hope you enjoy the rest of this episode. Listen closely


what’s going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of The Art of coaching Podcast. I’m here with highperformance coordinator for US Ski and Snowboard. Calin Butterfield Calin has been a friend of mine for a long time, I had the privilege of working with Calin a few years ago, and he is somebody that I always appreciated because he’ll tell it raw tell it like it is. If something was shit, he’ll tell you there’s no mincing of words. At the same time. He’s got a very unique way of kind of just deconstructing thoughts and ideas, whether that’s coaching, whether that’s how he approaches weightlifting, and he’ll talk a little bit about that, because he’ll be humble, but he’s a phenomenal weightlifter, like him and his wife are both just beasts in that regard. And just somebody that in a world that can get really politically correct, won’t hesitate to kind of give you what his opinion is on something and doesn’t do it to try to be controversial just does it because he thinks that the pragmatic approach is to be real, honest, straightforward and hard hitting. So I want to welcome Calin onto the show. What’s up, man, how you doing?


Calin Butterfield  3:16  

I’m good man, that’s quite an intro. I feel like I gotta go, up to that now.


Brett Bartholomew  3:21  

You gotta own up to Nah, man. It’s just something that I’ve always appreciated about you. And there’s things that you can always talk to, with or talk about with other people in your circle. And I know that even if something was considered extremely contentious by somebody, you’re always somebody that kind of sees the bigger picture and I’ve never had to be like, Hey, I got to ask you something. Don’t get offended or don’t you’ve always just been like, Alright, man, like, I’m not really emotional. Much. I got nothing. It’s sacrosanct here.


Calin Butterfield  3:49  

Ya know, I appreciate you for having me on, man. It’s an honor. It’s amazing to see you know, just where you are at now too everything that you’re doing. It blows my mind almost every day.


Brett Bartholomew  3:57  

Appreciate it, man. It’s a lot of shrapnel embedded in the skin though the last two years. A lot of shrapnel. So like first and foremost, just for people that don’t know who you are, and you do a really good job at hiding, man, you know, can you give us a little bit about your background and what led you to US Ski and Snowboard? 


Calin Butterfield  4:13  

I’ll crawl out of my hole here for a second. Yeah, I grew up in the northwest, so Pacific Northwest and Oregon. And so I always grew up skiing and being an outdoor kind of active kid. But more of my professional journey was as Brett knows, and people who know me, I was with Exos for a lot of years back when they were athletes performance and so I was there for just under a decade for about eight years, which is where I met you of course and I actually got approached my last year there by someone by a recruiter who was interested in kind of where I came from knew that I graduated from Oregon State knew me from my days with excess and I had talked about skiing and just kind of growing up being active so, US Ski and Snowboard was looking for someone And who had the kind of the professional expertise of a strength and conditioning coach had some experience with education coach education. But also, something that’s really important to them as an MGB is hiring people who kind of care about skiing and snowboarding. And so they were getting a lot of applications from people who were kind of your traditional Strength and Conditioning Specialist very highly qualified, a lot of sports science background, and I just kind of took it as an opportunity to really explore Well, what do I want out of, a change in roles. And I just, I wrote a really passionate cover letter that kind of talked about my, childhood growing up as a skier. And before I knew it, I actually found myself in kind of the final interview process. And what’s really kind of interesting about it is, I wrote that cover letter a little bit regretful and submitted it and kind of think, I didn’t take myself seriously enough, and kind of put myself out there, but it actually ended up being what got me the job.


So now I, as kind of my background as a strength and conditioning coach, or physical preparation coach, however you want to term it, I’ve moved into a role that’s a little bit more specific in coach development, I oversee our kind of elite development academies where our young athletes come through, which is a whole nother story, but we can talk about those. And then I also am kind of in charge of our partnership with our Sports Medicine Centers. So we partner with some hospitals across the country. And I kind of oversee the relationship of getting them up to speed on what we’re doing from a sports science testing training standpoint, because we have athletes that will, be there for surgical procedures, or medical procedures that also want to stay in and train there or live in the Tahoe area, or somewhere that’s not Park City, which is where our centralized training is located. And so I kind of am in charge of making sure, I guess we have a unified system across the country, and everyone’s kind of speaking the same language.


Brett Bartholomew  7:01  

And is this something that,  when you and I, and we coach a lot on the floor together? Is this something back then that you would have ever imagined role wise, you would have navigated or migrated into? Or, prior to this Did you always just kind of see yourself as somebody that no, I’ll probably make, my living for the majority of my life just coaching, as opposed to moving into this role? Is that something you thought about? And if not, how has that changed?


Calin Butterfield  7:25  

Yeah, the simple answer is not at all, like I specifically thought that I wanted to be, a coach through and through, in the hardcore term of, working directly with athletes every day for the duration of my career, and some of that actually came from some of the influencers I had early on in life, kind of shitting on anyone who moved out of a coaching role, and into more of a, hesitant to say director role, because I’m not a director, but, into an administrative role. And I think that was actually a big hesitation of mine, initially, as the process for, me taking this job move forward was, in the back of my mind, I constantly felt like, man, if I’m stepping away from, coaching revolving door every day, nine to five, or, six to seven, more realistically, like I’m gonna, my sword is gonna get dull, and I’m going to lose a lot of capability, or ability that I have as coach, and am I going to be happy? Because I didn’t want to be a desk jockey. And part of that came from just a low, I think, low esteem for that role with through a lack of understanding, I didn’t know exactly the impact that you could have been in a position that’s more of a coordinator role. And I think part of that was just an insecurity of myself, because, as I think a lot of us do, I had, being a coach is basically what defined me. And I wouldn’t say that, from an ego standpoint, I’m the type of person that, being affiliated with professional athletes or a certain team, is what gets me out of bed every day, but you definitely you’re in that setting for long enough that it definitely becomes a part of who you are, and how you think about yourself. And so to me, it was a big struggle to kind of get myself in the mindset that I’m changing roles, which isn’t a bad thing. And yeah, it’s going to be challenging. I’m going to learn a lot more about this other side of the business, which is ultimately what got me excited is learning new skills.


Brett Bartholomew  9:36  

Yeah, and it’s interesting, because, one thing that you touched on there too is a lot of those beliefs prior is not just ego insecurity, but also kind of just who you surround yourself with, we all through I think, at certain points of our career, right, have a coterie of individuals that all they want to discuss is certain aspects of weightlifting, right like and you and I used to get in a lot of debates about double knee bend and situations and like That stuff’s great. But I think one thing for me that even expanded is just getting around other people that were in leadership or director or coaching, coaching roles and, you know, being able to kind of get insight about their world, because I was same as you, I thought, like anybody that wasn’t just coaching in the hardcore sense of the term all the time, was out of touch. And in reality, a lot of those people just had so many lessons they could teach you, it’s just a lot of dense and diverse experience with that. 


So like within that, like, what were some of the roles? Or I mean, what are some of the skills rather, that you have learned? Since that time? you and I shared so much time on the floor together? What are some things whether it is administrative, or anything else that, you think has made you a more complete coach, in retrospect, something that even if you weren’t on the floor coaching directly, like, just learning about more, as a leader, has given you a different view on those things? Is there anything that’s transferred, so to speak?


Calin Butterfield  10:51  

Yeah, I think a lot of it is kind of insidious, like you don’t go into the role looking for it. But then, now that I reflect on it, and being in the role for about two years, I see some direct kind of carryover. And I think the biggest thing for me, which is going to kind of sound like a cop out to anyone, especially people who are, you know, listening to your podcast, because you talk about this stuff a ton, but just, the role of, of actually connecting with people. And, creating those relationships, I think, to give some context, when I was coaching, specifically working with groups of athletes, I’m not a high ego person, but I think it was a lot about what I am providing to the athlete, and what I am teaching the athlete, and, designing really good what I thought really good sessions around what I am going to teach the athlete, because we like to think of ourselves as educators. 


And so, stepping into this role, you know, my initial six months to eight months was kind of seek to understand just by the nature of I knew nothing about us ski and snowboard, I knew nothing about the competitive ski racing and snowboard free ski industry. And so I’m going out to try and quote unquote, kind of sell this unified program unified system with our academies, without knowing anything about any of the politics, or backgrounds or even the sport, really, outside of just being a recreational skier growing up. And so what, I hate to say I had to do, because I think I have a skill for connecting with people just innately. But what I really had to do was take a good hard look at, separating my ego. And then actually making an effort and finding a way to connect with people and create relationships with people that were maybe averse to that or had a bad experience with the organization in the past. And so now, when I come back to, kind of relate it to coaching, I guess, it’s it’s interesting, because it’s one thing to be Critically Reflective, and look at, the programs you’re designing, do they have intent, and are we trying to focus on teaching the athletes something, I had never really considered, at least cognitively that maybe it’s important to understand what the athlete wants from an education standpoint, or connection standpoint, similar to, anyone that you work with. And so for me learning that if I go to Vermont, and I meet with six different academies with, all these diverse background of staff and experience levels going in, and inherently, I asked a lot of questions and just tried to connect, because I knew I had to build trust.


Brett Bartholomew  13:38  

Can you give us an example not to cut you off? But yeah, just from a tactical standpoint, can you give us an example of some of those questions? I know I’m putting you on the spot, but my


Calin Butterfield  13:47  

So I sound like an Australian No, yeah, yeah. No, I think actually, I guess I say ask questions. Specifically, I went in kind of made it a strategy to let them know upfront that I knew nothing about this industry and be really clear of,what my background was and was not and then I was not coming in to tell them how to coach their skiers, I was coming in as a with a expertise in strength and conditioning and, a systematic approach to developing performance programs. And I basically asked them what they would like from me to make this program work, which probably seems a bit of theory without context for the program, but it was really kind of trying to disarm everyone and letting them know that I wasn’t the type of guy who was going to come in and say, Hey, you guys, everything you’re doing is absolute garbage. And we need to change this change that. And so I guess it was less about having a specific set of questions because every environment is a bit different. And some people I connected with really easily and some people were a bit harder. It was more about honestly kind I’m just putting everything on the table, and letting people know that I am here to work with them, which is easier said than done. 


I think the biggest thing was me letting people know what I’m not,  what I don’t do for a living, which is ski coach, or, I’m not an on Hill coach or a technical tactical coach. And I needed to learn a lot about that. And I think that that did a bit of good and disarming some people not feeling like I was going to come in and try and just dictate what US Ski and Snowboard wanted or what I wanted. But I think at the same time, it was a risk because throwing that out there day one, you could potentially be harming your credibility. But I kind of took that risk and then tried to move forward from a, all cards on the table, like, we need to work together. And here’s where you guys have a lot of expertise and quality. And here’s where I have a lot of expertise in quality. I don’t know if that makes sense. It’s not necessarily Yeah, no, makes


Brett Bartholomew  16:00  

Yeah, no, makes a lot of sense. I mean, basically what, when you look at the importance of vulnerability, you being able to say, Hey, I’m not an expert in these things, but I’m willing to learn and I want this to be a collaborative, type relationship, I think that that speaks to, one of the things I said in my book is, if you look at the kind of research relate, reframe the three, our approach, you’ve got to be able to express some vulnerability of what you’re not. If you want the other person to continue to divulge information or really trust you, it’s otherwise it’s kind of a parasocial relationship. And I think that a lot of that sounds like anathema to strength coaches, who many people because of, some semblance of their own insecurity feel like they have to be everything, not really the case. You also touched on some stuff that I know Robert Cialdini talks about where, his influence research. And for anybody that doesn’t know Robert Cialdini is a professor emeritus at Arizona State University. His area of focus is kind of experimental psychology and influence and persuasion. And he talks about you can make arguments more compelling by actually highlighting their weaknesses. And it’s something that I think it was Queen Elizabeth of Pillsbury did in like a speech before there, England was getting ready to go to war, Spain. And I might have mentioned this once before, but all these people were like, what a woman is going to, like lead us into battle. And for anybody listening, this isn’t my views. This was centuries ago in England. So I’m just reporting the story as its told. But soldiers were skeptical of that the Spanish Navy and the Spanish Army military in general was a pretty feared fighting force. And here was Queen Elizabeth saying, like, I’m going to come into battle with you. And she could sense the doubt. And so one of the things she went on to say, and they credited as one of the best speeches in history, although I’m not going to recite the whole thing here is she said, Listen, basically, I understand I have the body of a feeble woman, but I have a heart of a king and the king of England too. And it just, that led into everything else that she locked into, and the guys right men were just like, hell yeah.  she admitted, if you acknowledge


Calin Butterfield  18:03  

Acknowledgement of the argument against her. 


Brett Bartholomew  18:03  

Yeah. And that’s something you see like tobacco industry face, there’s a big reason they don’t continue to advertise with the same frequency that they used to. It’s not because they ran out of money. It’s because they literally pass a law that said, okay, you can run an ad. But then we’re allowing an anti tobacco agency to run an ad for free and countersuit. And so they find counter arguments are usually always going to be more effective than initial arguments. So if you can literally list something early on, that hey, like this is I’m not saying this is perfect. I’m not the authority, it lowers people’s guards, and helps them be more receptive to a message. So what you did there is key and it’s honest, it’s honest, you’re not  a pro snowboarder, or skier, like not at the level they are, at least and so I think that’s a huge example to learn from.


Calin Butterfield  18:03  

It’s interesting, because, you bring up vulnerability, and I think it was Daniel Coyle, he talks about, we all talk about culture, and how trust is important and culture and culture has kind of been bastardized in a hot button, talking point, but, vulnerability is what leads to trust. And I had no idea like I since I have come into this role, I’ve become much more I’m hesitant to say academically, but much more formally educated in psychological safety and kind of the process of creating relationships with people. But if there’s one thing to take away that I have always lived by, and really kind of was proven to me in this role, or coming into kind of a tumultuous role is, vulnerability, sincere vulnerability, not the,  self deprecating humor, which is it has a place but true vulnerability is really going to open people up a lot more to actual collaboration. And I think it just can’t be understated or overstated,


Brett Bartholomew  19:53  

Yeah no, so I mean, you definitely have to let people know you’re listening to them and that you’re not perfect. And I think that that adds kind of the evolution of, of where coaching needs to go, at least in essency because we’ve typically done this Superman Superwoman persona, hey, this is, you look at coaches that have everything so highly ritualized and regimented, and some of that’s for them, but some of them is also trying to kind of do what, Erving Goffman would call like face works, there’s they can show somebody a representation of what they’re trying to get them to do. But it’s like, you know what, like, people respond well to imperfection, you don’t need to be able to, be a master of all skills, you just got to make sure that the ones that are most kind of related to what you’re trying to accomplish in that moment, are salient enough, or at least, streamlined enough that you can get those things going. So within that, in your experience in the college setting, private sector, Special Forces, and now the Olympics side of things, what are specific skills aside from vulnerability, and some of that you mentioned the academic side of things, what’s been upgraded the most,  if you are going back and telling yourself five years, ago, hey, like, this is something that you’re going to have to learn to get really comfortable with whether you agree with it now or not. It’s going to be a cornerstone of what you do daily at US Ski and Snowboard. Is there something there that really stands out?


Calin Butterfield  21:12  

Yeah, I mean, I think that there’s obviously a lot of there’s a lot of just innate growth that that goes on whenever you transition roles. I think, I guess, for me, it’s interesting, because when I was at Exos, I always craved for, more freedom in the role that I was in. And that’s not an Exo specific thing. This is, I think most coaches, we want freedom, we want leadership, we want not just busy work, but tasks, responsibilities that actually help us develop leadership skills. And then I came to this role and was kind of just handed a platter, in my high performance director basically said, after six months, I don’t want to have anything to do with this in the context of, making decisions, I want you to own it. And so, you’re given this gift that you’ve been asking for, and then you realize, oh, shit, I don’t have any of the, abilities, or at least I have not educated myself formally on any of these skill sets that are required to actually run a program. Within, the context that I have it at an NGV where I have all this resource and support, but I need to activate on it, I need to, get all these people from all over the country, coordinated on one vision, one goal, and then organize them to, a schedule. So I think the biggest thing for me that I have learned, like stepping into this role that I never would have thought I would have A skill that be would be interested in is actually how to take ownership of something that does not have direction. And, trust myself that there’s gonna be a mistakes that are made along the way, but B that as long as you keep working on it, like you can actually complete an objective or a task. 


I had always kind of craved that, or always thought I wanted like, man, they should give me more ownership, it should give me more decision making power. And then all of a sudden, once I was kind of given that and thrust into it, I quickly realized that that comes with some other responsibilities that are required that I hadn’t necessarily considered, I think,  on another level more of a kind of personal professional level of interest. I was, I mean, you and I have talked about this, I am a die hard. You have to be a technician, a good technician of your craft and craft excellences from the hard science standpoint is absolutely critical. And I still believe that I think I have been somewhat vacillating on the softer skills. And I think we do them a disservice by calling them the softer skills, the psychological skills, the artistic skills, which I’ve never not believed in, the art of our craft. But, since I have been in this role, I’ve had the opportunity to learn from some amazing people that live on the quote unquote, soft skill side and I think it has shown me that okay, yes, I have always had an innate ability to connect and be vulnerable. But there are actual tangible things that you can do.  when you’re in the shit are in the thick of it, in the trenches, with your athletes in the trenches, with your coaches with other administrators, strategies that you can use to actually help improve buy in to actually help improve connection even with people who may seem adversarial and I’m not saying I have a mastery of those by any means. But what I have been educated in is that a lot of this quote unquote soft side of coaching a is not that soft, but be is also applicable in professional contexts outside of coaching, and I think it’s really important that we kind of see those parallels and apply them 


so like, for example, working with sport coaches is kind of something that the high performance department at US Ski and Snowboard have As excelled at at times, and maybe not done as well at other times, but in general, the sport coaches travel a lot and are not necessarily always in tune with, the high performance coaches as far as what we’re doing on the floor, return to snow progress with athletes, they kind of because their lives are busy, and they have a lot of shit going on. And sometimes it can create this kind of friction filled environment on our end, because, we’re expecting them to be a part of the process, and which rightly so, if we’re talking about athlete centric model or, athletic development as a whole, we want all the stakeholders involved. 


But the question was posed to me by my high performance director, in a particular case where I was working with an injured athlete, or an athlete recovering from an ACL injury. And I was kind of a little perturbed, because I got an email from the coach, just asking, when she could return to snow, and nothing else, and it’s,  know, how is she doing, where she had in the process, what is the latest update, and, something as simple as that, for me, which I look at it now and say, Yeah, that’s not necessarily a big thing. But I had not taken the time or made the effort to actually reach out to him and give him a monthly or a weekly update, and, and kind of treat this conflict or this friction as an opportunity to actually collaborate and take it upon myself to build that relationship with, the coach, which is ultimately, going back to when I first came on, and had to open up some, communication and vulnerability with these Academy staffs, I should have taken a lesson from that and been able to just understand that, hey, if I don’t make the effort, if I don’t put myself out there, I may not get anything back, but at least we can start there and see if we can establish a relationship and communication.


Brett Bartholomew  26:57  

And was it situations like that, that when it really hit you that, more topics related to the art of coaching needed to be discussed? Is it similar things like,  when did that really hit you? And you’re right, the argument, or people calling it the soft side or argument, art and science, whatever. It’s like an internecine argument. It’s damaging to both sides? It’s not an argument that needs to be had. But when did that really hit you? Was it situations like that?


Calin Butterfield  27:25  

I think so. I think honestly, I guess, when it actually hit me that this stuff is not only crucially important, because I think in the back of our mind, we all know that it’s crucially important, but that 


it’s hard to define, 


yeah, it’s hard to define, and that it’s important to actually similar to how we would, train ourselves physically, it’s actually important to train ourselves in these interpersonal skills was, I don’t know, if you’re familiar with Wade Gilbert, or the quality coaching framework. I mean, it’s very easy to look at that stuff, and go, Oh, man, this makes so much sense and applies to me the way that I interact with my athletes and how I coach teams and, critically reflect on myself. But zooming out, I think, after sitting through a workshop with him, at one of the academies, I realized, actually on the drive back, because it was about a four hour drive from Park City, how that just relates to absolutely everything, all human interactions, like culture is not something that we can just really create in a pocket. I mean, you can because you, I guess, have a specific set of people working around you. But the personal culture and the ability to be a cultural upgrader. And kind of apply these skills everywhere is something that is going to be a benefit to any group you work with, I think the challenge is, I didn’t even know that there were skills or techniques to do, or techniques to use and learn that could help me be better at it, like personality is a big part of it. But everybody knows that really nice person who are really great person who’s, maybe not the best professional, but we kind of give them a pass because, hey, they’re a great guy or a great girl. However, taking the time to develop some of those more actual technical skills of interpersonal intrapersonal, communication, leadership reflection, that’s something that I never thought of Intel, being put in this position, having some conflict with and I say conflict, it’s, it wasn’t really a big issue, 


Brett Bartholomew  29:28  

but it doesn’t it doesn’t have to be a big issue for there to be caught. what I mean, 


Calin Butterfield  29:31  

conflict? Yeah, something to reflect on and then sitting through enough workshops and, conversations with people who were experts in this field that I started to get the idea that, yeah, okay, I’ve definitely been overlooking this. As far as part of my actual professional development, as opposed to just kind of taking it for granted that you’ll learn it as you go.


Brett Bartholomew  29:55  

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Yeah, no, and I think you, naturally kind of took things to where my next question was going to be, in your opinion? How can we go about evaluating somebody’s grasp on art coaching related skills? what do you think everybody clamors for an evaluation? I know, it’s something I’m working on. Within the art of coaching framework, we have something that we’ve used internally already. And a lot of it came from not only a combination of research, but things that you just kind of as you reflect, as you communicate with other coaches within organizations team or pro high school, college, what have you. So we’re creating something I think is pretty unique. But how do you think these things should be evaluated? 


Calin Butterfield  32:04  

I’m not, I’m thinking out loud. Because this is something that we have discussed before. And so it brings me back to one of the things that you want said to me a long time ago. And I don’t want to butcher this, it’s basically we are in a subjective field that is, we try to measure objectively, which is virtually impossible, like, how can we actually know that we are developing these skills or, quote, unquote, score ourselves on these things? How do you know, essentially, and it goes back to just how, how do you know, when you’re actually making a difference for an athlete, and I think there are becoming better mechanisms for critical reflection or self evaluation on these skills, but those are inherently subjective as well. I think here’s my guess, overall, take Intel, leadership and organizations start, including pieces of interpersonal intrapersonal skills and professional development into job descriptions into PD budgets, or continuing education budgets like until we get to that point, I don’t know if it will actually be less major, let alone well measured. And I think one of the things that we try and do to, I’m hesitant to say major to assess where we’re at is, first of all, do we have a cultural statement, or an elevator pitch or mission vision value statement that actually reflects something that we all are passionate about. And that’s something that we’re working on his high performance department, because everyone has one, everyone has their, core values and their mission vision values. But if it’s not something that you can, say within 30 seconds, and truly believe in, I think that that’s a big indicator of what you value as an organization. 


I think that it has to start with basically, the expectation is made when you first get hired, and you get on boarded with a new job, or you are hiring people or onboarding people, that there are some expectations that you have as far as whether it’s reading material, or whether it’s a critical reflection activity that you’re doing. That includes this type of stuff that includes art of coaching, connection, vulnerability, all of these quote unquote, soft sciences or soft issues, as far as are we doing it? And what are we doing? We do not do a good job of it, I don’t think and I think everyone realizes that. even at an Olympic level organization, we get so caught up in nuts and bolts, technical, tactical Sports Science, high performance, that this stuff even though we recognize its importance and value, we, we it’s kind of been an oversight for a long time. So I don’t know how I have a good answer


Brett Bartholomew  34:57  

I mean, it’s all good thoughts. And That’s where those answers sprung from. I mean, I know even when I started diving more deeply down this rabbit hole, because I did my master’s thesis on internal and external cueing and all that and back in 2009, but I knew that that wasn’t the answer, right? Like, that’s not the art of coaching, that’s part of, the verbal communication side. But it’s not the whole thing. So I knew I had to come up with some kind of definition that wasn’t just thought up,  out of thin air like, but really kind of led into Organizational Psychology and behavior as well. And,  still to this day, if somebody says, What is the art of coaching, I define it as the ability to identify, analyze, and influence variables that impact human performance. Now, you could probably make an argument of the ability to do identify, analyze and adapt to variables that impact human performance. But I think it is critical that art of coaching is defined within a human performance model, because it is the human part of that, right? And so when we’re looking at variables, it’s great that we look at tonnage, it’s great that we look at acute chronic workload, all these kinds of things, but are we looking at social interactions, strategic interpersonal communication, all these different pieces? So, operating off of okay, what goes into interpersonal dynamics, both verbal nonverbal, what goes into logistical management? What goes into all these things that, and some of which I talked about my course Bought In, but I think some of the most valuable feedback I got from people that went through that course, is, I had put together a coaching eval, and it was just like, hey, what were the demands of the session? Or what was the goal of this session? Was it accomplish? You know, why was this the goal? What was the linchpin to how it was accomplished? What coaching style did you use? Why did you choose that coaching or communication style? What was the relevance of the, And people?


Unknown Speaker  36:41  

Yeah, like a reflection card? 


Brett Bartholomew  36:43  

Yeah. Yeah. But like people were like, I had never thought about some of the stuff that was like, yes. All right, like I had neither, but I remember, there was our time together at AP, where I just walked out of a staff evaluation one time, and I didn’t feel like I knew where I needed to get better, and so I had to, like, I went home, and I could sit there and complain about it. Or I could get out of whiteboard and start being like, how do I assess myself knowing that it’s going to be biased to a degree so I started recording myself coaching started doing this that  and it was kind of, it’s wrenching to hear, to see yourself or even to hear it, you know, what I mean, it’s brutal.


Calin Butterfield  37:20  

Even just doing it on the fly, and realizing you have just said something that you were like, how that probably wasn’t the most effective and you kind of


Brett Bartholomew  37:27  

Right and I’ll do it in podcast as well see something I’m like, God, isn’t how I’d normally say it. Because it’s kind of this a Hawthorne effect? You know, somebody’s listening or watching So You adapt behavior? Or you have more internal Yeah, exactly. And so I just think that that’s a huge piece for people to kind of pick up on is be like, how do we react in these environments when things go wrong? Because I think that identifies key variables within the art of coaching as much, if not more, so then when a session went smoothly, if something goes wrong, that’s an orchestration that was blown, because of an art of coaching variable, what was it? And what are you going to do about it?


Calin Butterfield  38:03  

I think that speaks to that’s a really good point. And I think it’s really interesting, the, I guess, the effect or the importance of, when you’re designing a training session, or a training lesson, not only factoring in this stuff has kind of an aside or like, you have your column that’s, your session, your drills, whatever tonnage, and then on the other side, don’t forget XYZ in terms of this, quote, unquote, soft stuff, but what we don’t do a good job of, and this is something that I would really like to explore, particularly as a performance coaches, like, how do we actually structure a session to incorporate all of this because I think it’s one thing to reflect on, how was my language? Did I connect with someone? You know, did the athlete walk away, having learned something new, but I think actually, part of the art of coaching that’s combined with the technical excellence side is the how you design your lesson plans to allow for some of this stuff, and that’s what you got to that, like, yeah, external internal cueing, that’s a piece of it. Effective Practice design is a piece of that for emergent learning, but, recognizing in yourself and your athletes like what are fixed mindset triggers that are going to kind of derail this process for me to have a open communication to allow for emergent learning to happen because now I’ve gotten the athlete or myself out of this acceptable zone, for new stimulus and to not be able to be threatened. And I think that’s what we don’t have a good grasp on because I talked to, a couple of our consultants, sports psych consultants who are also coaches and they struggle with it, they’re well read and this is their frickin field of understanding people how to connect, how to develop quote, unquote, growth mindset, in the context that we’re all on a continuum. How to make take effective practice, as effective as possible, and we still don’t have a great way of combining it all to optimize performance. 


And I think I’ll say that I guess, but I think at the top level, and by top level, I mean, the best coaches, whether or not they’re at the top level of sport, the best coaches, I think, get it right more often than wrong, or do it more consistently well, and they may or may not be cognitively aware of everything that they’re influencing. So I think, yeah, I think for me, the art of coaching is what I would like to do better is understand how, from cradle to grave, from inception to end, you know, how a an effective practice plan or effective training plan can actually organically build this stuff in, which is everything that you’re doing everything that you’re talking about, but I do think it’s important to keep reminding myself and other people that it’s not these conceptual theories that are just augmented, or that just augment your technical practice. It’s not like,  as long as you remembering, quote, unquote, the art of coaching, while you’re teaching someone how to clean and jerk, you’ll be okay. It’s like, how do we design a clean and jerk teaching progression that incorporates these aspects of, communication, skill acquisition learning? And it seems like a simple answer, it seems fairly contrite. But it’s so complex on so many levels, that it’s really just in its infancy of us understanding how to do it, I feel like


Brett Bartholomew  41:30  

yeah, I’d agree. And I think that, part of it has been, and I was talking to somebody about this the other day, because I went out to do an X PT event, we’re doing some things or to coaching wise to kind of guide different entities out there that are either trying to certify or bring other coaches on and they want those coaches exposed to more the social side of things, because as you know, you saw mentorships, and things like that in AP, people can come in and grasp the knowledge and pass the test and, all these things, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re socially effective,  they go lead a group, and it’s kind of brutal, and that’s a problem in and of itself with any, I don’t know, I hate the term certification, anything that is not highly practical, and just kind of require somebody to to pass an exam. And so anyway, we were doing some work out there, and we’re going through some stuff and what was intriguing is, everybody had a really good time one, because you’re around guys like LAIRD HAMILTON two Your in place that is like We’re in Hawaii. So it’s sunny all the time. You’re doing under crazy underwater pool workouts where we have 45 pound dumbbells, we’re completely submerged. We’re doing farmer’s box at the bottom of the floor, like we’re doing all this crazy stuff that they put you through, and everybody comes up and they’re really euphoric, right, and they’re euphoric at these events, because they’re struggling together, they’re doing something together. But really, a lot of the people in our field like it because they’re active. 


And when I looked, I looked at a friend of mine, I go, this is interesting, because as we do more art of coaching events, this is going to be a struggle for us. And he goes, Well, what do you mean? And I said, people love coming to weightlifting seminars, or coaching clinics or things that are really geared around physical activity or exertion. And they’re gonna leave with positive associations with it mostly because it’s in an arena that we feel good about, and it releases endorphins. But when people come to our to coaching apprenticeships, like we’re all myself included, got to put ourselves in really kind of semi awkward, maybe for some people, if their ego gets involved, even hostile social situations where they’re going to be told they didn’t communicate as effectively as they could have or when they’re doing peer evaluation. Somebody might say, Hey, man, like, I didn’t understand what you were saying, I know you did. I know you’ve done this for 20 years. I know you’re a strength coach at a super high level, but like, I didn’t get this. And so what I said is people are going to leave these apprenticeships, if we do our job, well, feeling challenged, feeling convicted, feeling to a degree, maybe even more insecure. But they should also feel like they took a step closer to becoming a better, more self aware, communicator and tactician. But I won’t have we’re not going to have the exercise piece to like, Hey, everybody, one group workout, because that’s not what it is, 


And so I think that’s part of the reason, just going back to what you originally said, there’s not solutions for this is who the hell wants to go and do something where they’re, it’s highlighted that they’re maybe not as effective of a communicator, people, my wife said it really well. And Liz, I go, why do you think people I mean, do you agree that people would feel this way? And she was like, Yeah, to a degree and I go, Well, why? And she goes, because people don’t want to feel like they suck at something. And inevitably, you’re gonna get somebody that comes in, and they’ve won all these accolades. Maybe they were strength coach of the year, maybe they were a master level strength coach designation, and then somebody that’s five years in, but is in their peer evaluation groups and something they said was unclear, or, whatever, they didn’t meet the objective, and they’re going to want to argue about it. And so I think that’s a big piece there that people and hopefully these events itself select, I’ll say it right now. And I don’t want anybody coming that isn’t open. Like if you’re a coach and you think that you have learned all you can, and that you have absolutely nowhere within your practice to get better, please don’t come, but it’s how much of that do you think has to do with why we kind of avoid these topics? So, much and why we tend to stay away from this kind of stuff?


Calin Butterfield  45:26  

Yeah, I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head, and Liz hit the nail on the head, like when we get down to it, like no one wants to be let alone sucky at something, but be called out for being not great at something. And I think it depends on the culture. one of our just a quick aside, I know, quite a few coaches from different countries in the sport now me from being here. And, the German and Austrian influence, particularly as I was having a conversation with coach who’s a female, she’s also the highperformance, Director at one of our clubs. And she’s like, Man, I have so much trouble coaching young girls. Now, my whole upbringing growing up, not just in sport was, you’re critiqued, if you do something wrong, like you’re called out on it, and you just learned that that’s okay. That’s something I can get better at. And it’s not that it’s done with the intention of hurting you or done for your benefit, so to speak, it’s just so everyone knows exactly what’s going on. And you get used to that, in that culture growing up with that, and going into sport with that. So then by the time you’re our age, and you’re coaching now, it can be really hard to critique effectively in our culture, because we have an individualistic society that’s full of ego, and we like to be good at things. And we’ve been kind of taught to sugarcoat criticisms. And to get back to your main point, I think that we do you have a problem with it. I think one of the things we struggle with specifically on the I’m hesitant to say the art of coaching, because it’s not what we’re kind of working with people on is not that it’s more specific to interpersonal intrapersonal skills, 


Brett Bartholomew  47:03  

just strategic interpersonal communication.


Calin Butterfield  47:05  

Yeah. And one of the hardest pieces is like we can sit in a room with one of our great sports, Psych consultants who are more of a mental performance kind of coach, and we can talk about the theory and the knowledge and everyone gets it. Everyone loves it. Like it all makes sense. You know? Yeah, growth mindset. Yeah, psychological safety, yeah, effective practice, design, how they all come together, but we don’t spend the time, which really needs to happen the next, four or five days, like, Okay, now we’re gonna roleplay. And now we’re going to, like you’re talking about it, your courses, put people in these positions. And I think the challenge with that is also, they are somewhat artificial. the best way like you talked about it, the best way to do it is really to film yourself, film your coaching sessions and have someone else kind of identify what’s going on in those. And we are so behind in that context, and we’re working on getting better, that what you’re doing is actually really important. I think that Intel, organization wide, or organizations themselves see it as important that, regardless of what level coach you are, or what capacity you’re coaching in strength and conditioning, whether you’re a physical therapist or not, whether you’re a Sport Coach, the way that you coach, the interactions, the communication that you use, and tell teams, organizations see that as part of the technical skill involved with being a coach, it’s going to be hard to move the needle, because job descriptions and hiring are going to be based on what’s on your resume, and not your capability as a human.


Brett Bartholomew  48:39  

Which is funny, because I think you had referenced Daniel Coyle, and I think one of the things that he talked about in the culture code is, he had said, really, what he said, he said, we grew up cultures are the result of focusing on skills while neglecting the importance of interactions or something like that. Yeah, it’s so true. I mean, the, the irony is, I’ve all get more bite back on some of this stuff from strength and conditioning, whereas Microsoft, wanted more of it, and that’s where you kind of got to look at our field and say, Okay, well, we read books written by Microsoft CEOs, or Google CEOs, people that are doing this stuff, but then, we’ll fight the change that could happen in our field about it. And that kind of leads into some stuff that I’m doing for my thesis with my doctoral research of like, why do people accept or reject change? Because that’s a big part of this stuff as well.  even you going in to go back to the beginning of the episode, and talking about the vulnerability and telling your athletes what you’re not, you’re a change agent. Every coach is a change agent, as it pertains to what the research calls anybody tried to influence or persuade, which we’re certainly trying to do. 


And, if you don’t understand certain aspects for why people accept or reject change, then you’re in trouble. And there’s So many different pieces of you know, people might not think the changes necessary, they may not think it’s feasible, it might not be cost effective. Does it cause a personal loss, whether of authority or power? Or somebody even? Right, as the leader not trusted, which is why buy in is so important. And then, or is it inconsistent with the values, but when people want to be resistant to change, you have to know what tics are, like, what, is scaring them in order for you to be able to address and target that influence tactic.


Calin Butterfield  50:29  

Yeah, it’s interesting, because I think, the influence that we’re having on athletes who potentially are going to be our future coaches, I was not a high level athlete. But I definitely, I’ve participated in sports and other activities that were coached. And subconsciously, I’m sure that that had an impact on me getting into coaching, whether it was through an interest in this, the activity side or training side, but I think where we really kind of owe a deep look is, this generation of athletes that we are currently coaching, they are kind of this hybrid, because more of this stuff is, and by this stuff, more of an awareness of the art of coaching and communication and human interaction is seeping into our generation of coaches, the coaches who we are a part of right now, and that will influence the next wave of, coaches coming out of the athletic sector. And I think we are, I don’t know, we view it in a binary, we view this how important it is, as coaches to be understanding of this stuff, but I think it’s a, just as important, if not more important for us to as a coach be educating our athletes on how important this stuff is. And it doesn’t mean that we have to sit them down and show them the quality coaching framework and say, Hey, this is what but the way that we coach in inherently affects the way that they’re learning about this stuff. 


And I kind of think, Brett that like, as it goes farther, like in another 20 years, all the athletes, let’s look at all the athletes that you have coached within that time. And obviously, all the coaches you’ve coached, I would imagine that a high percentage of the ones that have been coached by you that end up as coaches will probably have a coaching philosophy and style that has been heavily affected by you. And so I think our roles as coach, will directly affect people’s roles as coaches further on down the road. And that’s where, the better we can be getting our head around this stuff, even if we’re not experts, but if we at least try, I think that we’ll have a much higher rate of success of changing the the industry and the culture moving forward. Maybe not immediately, but more deeply or on a deeper level with those athletes. 


Brett Bartholomew  52:44  

And no, well said, man, and I hope that’s the case. I mean, I make it pretty abundantly clear. I’m no expert, or, person that’s perfect at a lot of this stuff. But you know, I do do the research, and I try to just be reflected. It’s funny. I did have somebody a younger coach, I think he was like, 20, I don’t know, 28 29 reached out and literally, like, sent me this message. He goes, You know, you didn’t invent the term art of coaching. yet. I’m like, Yeah, I don’t think I said I didn’t. He’s like, Well, I’m just letting you know, it was originally used in 2009. And I’m like, Oh, okay. Like, did Coca Cola invent cola? Like, what does that mean? Man, I can’t talk about something I didn’t invent. Now, we’re all trying to improve it. I don’t think any organization that we like, who invented the term strength and conditioning? Can we not use that? You know, and so it’s interesting, man, there’s a lot of blowback and fight. And here’s a question I want to ask. And I think that this goes into what you had mentioned about being reflective, what influence tactics are work best on you, if a coach if a coach was trying to influence you, right, if you’re not even a coach, if an individual today was a call you and they wanted you to adopt or adapt a certain behavior, what do you tend to respond to? And I’ll give you some examples is that, rational persuasion, somebody giving you facts, figures, information, statistics, is it more of a personal appeal, somebody’s appealing to kind of, hey, you know, me, you trust me? Is it kind of Would it be kind of a pressure legitimating tactic, or somebody says, Well, I’m an authority on this, and I think that this would greatly benefit you. What do you think, as an individual, what influences you most today? And it could be a number of them? It doesn’t have to be one?


Calin Butterfield  54:24  

Yeah, no, that’s definitely a tough question. I think that probably having a personal relationship to be just directly answering the question or having a personal relationship and having a lot of respect for someone will probably influence me to a higher degree simply because I think and you may be somewhat like this too.  we correspond and interact with academics oftentimes who have a lot of great facts and, not to say that facts are not important, because that’s a whole other hot button. 


Brett Bartholomew  54:57  

You’ll get some emails people will be like you dare criticize I


Calin Butterfield  55:01  

Yeah, but I think a lot of times as we know, like, it’s very hard to cross the divide and apply across realms and, take all facts with without any caveats and just say, Yeah, this is applicable here. So it’s applicable there. So I think for me,  personally influenced, right or wrong is, probably the most impactful thing, I will say that can have the opposite effect. Because if you, I mean, so if someone hates you, and you’re preaching a message, you probably whether the message is good or not,, it’s gonna go unheard. 


Brett Bartholomew  55:35  

But yeah no that you answered that prayer. And I think that’s worth anybody listening to this, when you start thinking about not only your own coaching, but think about how you were coached, what that’s kind of an action item for today is think about what influences you most like, if somebody were to come in challenge one of your most, just your most like indelible of ideas and beliefs, if somebody was to challenge that, and this person was presented to you as somebody that was trying to help, what would get you to listen to that person? What would influence you? And then once you have that answer, how do you see that reflected in the way you try to influence others? it’s kind of like, Are you somebody that is really good at squatting inherently? And if so, like, Do you think that’s impacted your belief on the importance of squat?  no doubt, squats are critically important to performance. But what I’m saying is, we tend to see a predominance of things attributed, whether it’s programming or our daily lives of stuff that we’re already good at, or, you know, we kind of self select. So think about that, in terms of influence, do you try to influence others, in the same way that you believe you are most likely influence or most effectively influence? I think it’s an interesting piece there, kind of there’s sorry, go ahead.


Calin Butterfield  56:45  

I was just gonna say, that’s a great point,


Brett Bartholomew  56:47  

but just trying to get like, so people aren’t listening to the podcasts. And I know, some people do it in their car. And so I was some keep your hands on the wheel. But, you need to have an action item. Otherwise, it’s just, we have this consumer culture where people will consume, consume, and be like, Okay, I heard the next podcast, I’m done, let me fire up a new one, like, you’ve got to have some takeaways. It’s so bad in how we do that. 


Alright, so I want to touch on something, and there’ll be maybe one of our last points, and it’s, it’s pretty personal. So feel free to kind of plead the fifth if you want. But the podcast, we try to touch on some things that everyday coaches struggle with, whether they’ve been in it five years or 50 years. like me, you have a family and you guys have moved a lot, a lot. And but grudgingly so because when you moved out of Phoenix, I was pissed. Like, I know, but I no longer had somebody just like, go down deep rabbit holes with to the same degree. how have you and your wife dealt with that process? Or? And you can answer this however you want. How have you dealt with that process? How has it impacted you? what were some struggles with that? And, can you just kind of address that piece? Because it’s a part of coaching that isn’t going to change? We all have to move and we have to be nomadic to a degree. How has that impacted you? Because you moved a lot?


Calin Butterfield  58:01  

Yeah, no, it’s uh, yeah, I kind of feel bad looking back on all the other questions, trying to provide like tangibles and stuff, this one, I think I can provide some tangible, it’s never easy, some of the moves have been easier than others simply because, the situation seems on the surface to be an improvement in a lot of ways. And so, I think this is gonna sound very, very cliche, but communication has been a huge part of that. And as hard, I think the trick is that communication can be hard sometimes. And so, my wife and I are a team, and we see ourselves as partners, and we have a relatively healthy relationship in that regard. It took me a long time to really understand that me, we constantly move for my job. And, I think that that inherently, even if someone is bought in and on your team, quote, unquote, for that piece of it, you have to make the effort to a not only affirm that, you know that, I understand that you have moved because of me, as simple as that can be it can, it can kind of down regulate any of the other kind of baggage that comes from constantly moving. I think the hardest part and you spoke to it, moving Arizona or leaving Arizona, every time you move, you’re kind of hitting the reset switch. And so establishing connections, personal connections with people becomes harder. And I think, rightly or wrongly, what has happened with us, and we talk about this quite often is we’ve become internalized. And so as a pair, we’ve grown closer together, but it’s been really hard to connect with other people because you’re, somewhere for 18 months to two years and you kind of start to form a relationship and then you’re upwards and onwards to the next thing. You hit the reset button. And so you kind of get in this habit of really turning inward for Everything for all your emotional needs for all of your social needs, which can be really healthy and really, really fulfilling to have a partnership, close partnership with someone like that. 


I think what we have not done a great job of is a me personally keeping in contact with people that I care about, that are outside of that circle from places that we’ve moved. And I think making the effort to, get outside, that social circle of just the two of us and Brett, you’re more, outgoing and kind of derive a lot of energy from people and within people. And I think there’s people that are natural at that and seek that out no matter what, I think it’s really easy as a coach, or someone who has a personality like I do, like, I am totally fine to spend time on my own or just with my wife and dog. In fact, that’s usually what rejuvenates me. But for a long time, I think I did use that as a crutch for not making an effort to to create a bigger social circle of support. And I’m not saying that you have to have a deep network of people to survive. But it’s part of human being a human is community. And so I think one of the other things, too, is setting expectations, just like with anything else, if you’re not clearly communicating what you want to get out of the next move for both individuals and having a plan to achieve that. And in Kili, my wife is a master at planning and executing a plan for our personal financial, situational health and wellness. Without that, I think in a lot of cases, there were some moves where we made and just kind of ended up moving and then floated along without a purpose or direction, without an eye on kind of what’s coming next. Not that you can always plan for that, it definitely gives you a much bigger sense of unease. Whereas going into the moves were like, Okay, this is what we want to accomplish with this move. We know that it’s not forever, but it could also be potentially longer, we’re going to set our mind to X, Y, and Z. And trying to accomplish this, in the first year, first two years, that gets you on a shared path. And for us, I think that was really important not to lose sight of that and to understand and keep perspective that this may not be the permanent move. And that may not be the ideal situation. But right now it’s right where we need to be and there will be something coming up later or We’ll reevaluate in when we hit that endpoint. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:28  

Yeah, no, I think that’s you touch on everything in more. And I just think, like I said, I think that can be important for coaches to realize, because there’s people that have been doing this a long time, listen to this podcast that are nodding their head, and they’ve been through it and appreciate the transparency. And then there may be some that their only personal commitment is to a crock pot right now and they don’t really have that significant other but like, at some point, this information will be huge 


Calin, I feel like I’m shortchanging a lot of the audience because you’re such a. No, no, no, because you’re like, you have so much information from the training site as well,  and we’ll definitely have to get you on for a part two. But,  for now, what’s the best way people can get a hold of you, if something that if they want to reach out and I know you’re busy and I know that you travel a lot, but is there a preferred method of communication where people can reach out and get a hold of you? 


Calin Butterfield  1:03:18  

Yeah, probably email is the easiest, okay, and


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:22  

I’m gonna have you say it, then I’m also going to put it in the show notes for everybody. So as always, don’t worry about writing it down, memorizing it, just go to the show notes. It’ll always be available for you. But Calin if you could give that real quick.


Calin Butterfield  1:03:33  

Yeah, it’s and Calin’s c a l i n.


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:40  

That is the longest friggin email I’d added myself longest email. Well, dude, I appreciate your time. This is your first podcast man. And for you to be able to or you to be willing to come on and share all this information. you need to I always tell you that you need to write a book. For sure you’re like the Carl Sagan of our field, you would just like get into some rabbit holes that would make people like Wonder what their name is, by the end of it. But I


Calin Butterfield  1:04:07  

would book would just be a stream of consciousness on that being 40,000 pages of drivel. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:04:12  

right. That’s right. There’s what I’ve learned is people find benefit and just about everything, and you would at least provide pragmatic value. So I want to thank you again for your time, man. Is there anything else you want to touch on before I let you go?


Calin Butterfield  1:04:12  

No, man, thanks. It’s, it’s an honor to be on this and I really appreciate the time and it’s always just good to talk to you


Brett Bartholomew  1:04:22  

Cool. guys. As always, if you can leave a review, I’d appreciate it. Now reviews from people like you allow this podcast to reach other coaches.

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