It’s a timeless question: What makes a leader great?
Some will say it’s empathy and compassion, others believe it’s trust and accountability or the ability to inspire.
I’d argue it’s none of the above but rather the skill of social agility- knowing what to be in the moment, in accordance with the context, combined with compassion- that allows a leader to truly stand out.
It’s for this very reason that we wanted to talk to Danny Matta. With experience as a physical therapist in the military setting, an entrepreneur, CEO of a cash-based PT practice, author and now educator, it’s safe to say today’s guest Danny Matta knows a little bit about finding that social agility.
And the leadership advice he shares today comes form years of iteration, and a willingness to learn, adapt and grow.
With that said, as opposed to an interview, today’s episode is more conversational – like you’re eavesdropping on two people catching up over coffee. We cover a couple questions asked from our 30-day Challenge members, along with other topics such as:
- How being an authentic boss who cares about the wellbeing of your employees results in a more productive and happier employee (23:45)
- How to negotiate with somebody who may be hiding something or not telling you the entire truth (33:30)
- How to deal with the creeping fears of failure and/or success (55:00)
- How to get your point across when it seems like the person next to you doesn’t really value your message (1:05:00)
You can find out more about Danny below:
Book – F*CK Insurance
If Danny’s entrepreneurial story resonates with you, whether you have your own business or you do something on the side, be sure to check out our live Brand Builder Workshop. It is all about how you can get out of your own way, get the best ideas you have out of your head, and get them to the people that need the most. You can get an exclusive discount right now on ANY of our live events by going to artofcoaching.com/events, choosing the event you want to go to, and then just entering PODCAST10.
Support for today’s episode comes from Dynamic Fitness & Strength.
Dynamic Fitness & Strength: These guys are our go-to equipment partner. Fully customizable and manufactured in the heartland of America- whether you’re looking to outfit your home gym or entire weight room, visit mydynamicfitness.com to get started. Tell them Brett and the Art of Coaching Team sent you!
TRANSCRIPTION
Brett Bartholomew 0:10
A brief heads up this episode of the podcast contain sensitive language. We at art of coaching tried to bring you real live content from real people. And we do not edit them, we allow them to be themselves. So just be mindful, no matter who you have around you or any other sensitivities you might have, there’s going to be uncensored content in this episode. Regardless of that, I hope you enjoy it. And I hope you can always see past words. Remember, meanings aren’t just in words, they’re in people. And we think it’s more valuable to bring you guests unfiltered, uncensored, and their natural state than to try to censor people and control what they say. If those aren’t your beliefs, we completely appreciate that we respect that. We’re just trying to let you know, be mindful of who you have around you listening to this episode.
All right, pet peeve of mine, and you don’t really have a choice but to listen to it because you’re somewhat captive audience here. And it’s, it’s a little funny. So stay with me. I know that I am not the only one who gets annoyed when in one to two months, when it starts getting around 2023 You get around all these people that are like, ah, New year, new you, I’m going to get so much better, I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that yet. Until then they kind of allow themselves to go into this role. Or they fail to remember that, hey, just because it’s a new year, if you get into the same patterns, you’re not going to change.
So we want to get a head start on this, we have listed a ton of events for 2023. And what’s up there, we’re probably only going to do about three or four more surprise events. So that whether you want to go to our leadership development workshop, this is where you’re gonna learn more about power dynamics, persuasion, navigating different aspects of the messy realities of leadership, where you’re going to be able to do roleplay improv, it’s a lot of fun to whether you want to go to our Speaker School, where it doesn’t matter if you’re a 10 level speaker or somebody that gets social anxiety, you’re gonna get up designing presentations, iterating on some of your best ideas, getting feedback from some really great people, and a lot of professions,
Or our Brand Builder workshop, which is all about entrepreneurship, whether you have your own business or you do something on the side, how can you get out of your own way, get the best ideas you have out of your head, and get them to the people that need the most. Regardless, you can get a discount right now by going to artofcoaching.com/events choosing the event you want to go to, and then just entering podcast10. Again, that’s podcast one, zero.
And guys, mind you, we already offer early bird discounts. So you can stack this with an early bird discount, save a ton of money, and get going. Now the most important thing I want you guys to know is this. We close our events at about 10 to 20 people depending on whether you’re going to our Leadership Development one, the Apprenticeship Brand Builder or Speaker School. We believe in smaller, more intimate learning environments, not huge conference rooms. Everything we do is hands on. Like I said, we use improv roleplay small group will roll out butcher paper and ideate together. So do this now
Get to artofcoaching.com/events. All we ask is if you have been helped by our free content like this, our newsletter if you’ve enjoyed my book or anything we put out, wait till you see what we do at our live events. Wait to see what we do and the two days we can work together. For those that don’t know remember, all these things are tax write offs, just consult your CPA, you got to get to these things. There are a lot of fun. I’m not going to sell them up any more than that podcast10 podcast10 podcast10 go to artofcoaching.com/events. Right now.
Support for today’s episode comes from Hōm-grōn, Hōm-grōn is a family owned business that believes in creating better bars for those who want great nutrition on the run. And they have two main founders Anthony and Joe Anthony spent his career working in corporate America and consumer packaged goods. That means he has background in helping your favorite foods stay fresh. And Joe spent most of his life as a chef in the restaurant and catering industry. He loves to cook and eat great food.
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Welcome to the Art of coaching Podcast. I’m Brett Bartholomew. And at a young age poor communication nearly cost me my life. Now, I help others navigate the gray area of social interaction, power dynamics and communication so they can become more adaptable leaders regardless of their profession, age or situation. This podcast is for everybody who is fascinated with solving people problems. So if you’re in the no nonsense type who appreciates frank conversations, advice you can put to use immediately and learning how others navigate the messy realities of leadership. You’re in the right place. I’m glad that you’re joining us. Let’s dive in.
Alright everyone, today, I’m excited to bring you my conversation with Danny Matta. Now Danny’s a friend. So this discussion is more like you guys eavesdropping on to people catching up over coffee. And we talked about a wide variety of things. And that’s one thing I really appreciate about Danny, is he’ll bring value to any discussion. I put him on the spot by asking him a couple questions from clients of ours in our Conscious Coaching challenge. One of those questions was about how to negotiate with somebody who may be hiding something or not telling you the entire truth.
I also talked to Danny about how to get your point across when it seems like the person next to you doesn’t really value your message. What are some considerations there. We also talked about some parenthood related topics, how to scale your business, and also how he feels about growing an obscenely creepy mustache for his TED last Halloween costume. This is something you’re going to enjoy. We try to bring you guys a lot of education. But more importantly, we try to bring relatable content to you.
So if you like listening in on conversations, you appreciate some sense of humor. You’re gonna love this one now. Brief alert. This does have sensitive language in it. So as with every episode, because we don’t edit these, we do not censor people, we try to just bring you real life and we try to allow our guests to be themselves. But if you have kids in the car or anybody that’s sensitive to language, just be mindful of that
Now, from a literal standpoint is day to day. Danny is a physical therapist and entrepreneur and an educator. He’s written numerous years in the Army as a physical therapist until he left to start his own physical therapy practice. Specifically his specialty was a cash based physical therapy practice one that offers a higher concierge standard of care than a traditional insurance based model. Then to help other PTS get out of this system of burnout and just being worn down by the medical model. He’s helped them grow into entrepreneurs of their own business.
So essentially helping really skilled craftsmen and crafts women also scale beyond themselves, make more money and deliver a higher standard of care. His wife is an absolute Rockstar. She’s good friends with my wife, her name’s Ashley. He’s got two great kids, two great dogs and one self proclaimed not so great cat. So we have a sense of humor. You’re interested in a wide range of topics entrepreneurially personally, professionally, enjoy my conversation with Danny Matta.
Everybody one once in a great while, we start one of these shows with what’s just called a rolling start where I’m catching up with somebody. And we decided it’s going to be more Jerry Seinfeld, Comedians in Cars Getting Coffee.
Danny Matta 10:13
It’s a great show.
Brett Bartholomew 10:13
Yeah, yeah. Dare I say you’re just a little bit more casual Joe Rogan conversation like this is never really an interview show. It’s conversational. But me and my friend, Danny Matta, who have you listened to his illustrious introduction, early on, were just commenting off air about his mustache. And I decided, you know, we need this explanation to be on air. So Danny, please continue for anybody lucky enough to be watching this full video. Do tell. Elaborate on the mustache we’re seeing here.
Danny Matta 10:40
Yeah, you know, it’s my first time ever having a mustache? I’ll go ahead and say that
Brett Bartholomew 10:44
First time?
Danny Matta 10:44
So first time, first time, you know, when I was in the Army is the only face you hear we could grow and I never took a crack at it. Don’t know why didn’t really feel like it grow at plus, if you’re gonna roll with a mustache. It takes a certain kind of person, because you get a lot of strange looks right. And I decided this year I wanted to go as Ted lasso for Halloween because I’ve been coaching my daughter’s soccer team. And I’ve never really played soccer. So all of literally my soccer coaching, expertise and knowledge comes from watching all of those seasons of that show, which is a great show. And I was like, Man, I want to be more like Ted Lasso. So decided, hey, I’m gonna go for him as Halloween. So I had the mustache now for about two weeks. I wanted to take for a test drive first, you know, see how it goes. But I’ll tell you what, man I was in California last week
Brett Bartholomew 11:36
on real quick, careful how that’s interpreted. Yeah,
Danny Matta 11:39
I know. Right, ya know, so and it’s kind of like driving a jeep. You know, there’s we went to San Diego to visit my wife stepsisters in the Navy. And there’s a lot of mustaches out there. And they have like, you know, it’s like they have like a secret. Sup man, like a wave like a Jeep wave, right? But I don’t identify as someone with a mustache. So it’s, I don’t I’m like, why is this guy waving at me. And it took me a little while to figure it out. We’re like at the San Diego Zoo. And I think three guys waved at me with mustaches. And that’s just like, it’s like a deep wave like a deep mustache thing. So it’s weird, man. It’s a whole nother culture. It is a different life. I think.
Brett Bartholomew 12:19
Yeah. I mean, one, you’re right. They look at you. And they’re like, Oh, you too. And yeah, and I think it’s like, you know, power numbers saying because one. Well, I don’t know, is it creepy to see one person with a mustache or a gaggle? I musti
Danny Matta 12:32
It’s weird if you see a whole bunch of them, I think. Because I mean, even sometimes I’ll wake up in the morning. And I’ll like go to brush my teeth. And I kind of catch myself off guard. Because I’m like, the fuck is that? Yeah. And it’s means
Brett Bartholomew 12:46
It’s you. I mean, so one, what is your wife Ashley, think about it to daily care. You know, what do you get me you got a flavor saver there. So you’re getting used to that right. You know, I had BBQ pork sandwich for lunch. You know, I’m glad to say we’ve got this dumpster. I don’t have any on the beard. But that takes some getting used to tell me about you know what Ashley thinks?
Danny Matta 13:05
She actually really likes it. It’s kind of odd. I think she thinks I look like a pilot. You know, maybe
Brett Bartholomew 13:11
Or a pirate
Danny Matta 13:13
or a pirate. Yeah. Pretty a pirate pirate.
Brett Bartholomew 13:17
Yeah, you could go as Sully.
Danny Matta 13:19
Yeah, no, definitely could have done that could you know, I didn’t watch the new top gun until I already had a mustache. And I watched it ironically, in the air on the way to San Diego. And I was like, Oh, hey, that would have been a good costume. But I think Ted Lasso was better, man. I think that like, Have you watched that show?
Brett Bartholomew 13:37
I have you know, I admittedly was late to it. We only watched it within the last probably I’d say two months, which I got a lot of guff for it because people would say how do you write a book like Conscious Coaching and then you haven’t seen it? So then my neighbor, one of my old neighbors created a really great was it thing on you know, Adobe Photoshop or whatever where Ted Lasso instead of pointing to the belief sign, it’s pointing to Conscious Coaching, which I think is nice. That’s how it was intended. But yeah, I’m new to it. I’m new to it.
Danny Matta 14:06
Yeah, I mean, I was to like it was I didn’t want to when the first came out, I hate when people give you the pressure you you’re like having Why haven’t you watched this? Like, I got shit to do, bro. Like, I got kids and I’ve got things that I’m doing. But that’s a show worth watching. It’s such a positive show. And my coaching style, I realize is very old school and this is with like nine year old girls, by the way, you know, like, disciplinary doesn’t work. And then as I started adapting, okay, I’m gonna coach like Ted Lasso it works so much better. They respond to positive reinforcement way more than you know, constructive criticism and letting them know what they need to improve.
Brett Bartholomew 14:44
Yeah. Which I mean, I’ll say this. It is a positive show, which sometimes I can kind of rebuke against things that are you know, just positive for positive sake. And yeah, a couple episodes. What they did, masterfully is right when I was about to be like, All right, there needs to be summer relatedness to this show. And then they start diving into his demons and just remind you that sometimes people mask, you know things with certain behaviors, and I don’t want to let it loose for anybody that hasn’t seen it. But right when you’re about to be like, this dude isn’t real, you get to real quickly.
And I think that’s what people can relate to. Which I think was interesting, too, because when it was airing, I was also learning about how you had Olivia Wilde served with papers. While Oh, yeah, go down that internet rabbit hole.
Danny Matta 15:28
She’s Jason Sudeikis
Brett Bartholomew 15:29
Yeah, she ran off with Harry Styles, you know, ran off with Harry’s. Oh, yeah, like ran off. I mean, galavanting, like, basically, they, her and Jason Sudeikis got a divorce. Next thing, you know, and I don’t know the order of events, not my life. But she’s galavanting around Harry Styles. And I think like one of those in your face kind of relationships, from what I hear wasn’t really around the kids that much. But again, who knows. And then she was going out to promote her new movie with Harry Styles. And by him, she comes down and get served with papers on screen on stage. Wow. So yeah, I mean, the real to allow, so that little Machiavellian streak in him?
Danny Matta 16:07
Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I was actually, I was thinking about, you know, this conversation and me diving into taking coaching lessons from Ted Lasso. And I thought to myself, hey, like the most, you know, accomplished coach that I know, I’m about to talk to you. And I’m interested, like, the coaches that you were around, that were the best coaches, right, the best coaches that you got a chance to just, you know, work with, or just, you know, be around in some capacity. What would you say? They’re like, style was if there was one that seemed to work the best. Was it more like, you know, disciplinarian? Was it more sort of positive, you know, relating to players? Like, what would you say? You notice? It’d be the best one?
Brett Bartholomew 16:50
Yeah, definitely bias here, just because it’s the core of a lot of what the rabbit hole, I went down for my doctorate. And yeah, my next book is all about dissecting kind of fallacies of leadership and all that. And it really what you find is it varies. The fact is that sometimes we hear that servant based leadership, charismatic based leadership, all that is a way to go and you are right, you know, is oftentimes with kids, depending on their age, that positive reinforcement can be huge, mainly because if you do try to rationalize with them, since they don’t have a developed prefrontal cortex, rationalization just doesn’t typically work that well. So you’re still trying to incorporate fun.
But you know, you also look at the soccer coaches out there that are just inhaling cigarettes and kind of give, you know, give backhanded compliments and know how to jostle with the players. You know, they get it done too. And it’s just, I remind people, there are people like Bobby Knight that I’m not condoning this, but Choate, kids threw chairs, and still they loved him, he won a championship, he won championships, and they, they asked him to come to the wedding. And then they’re the John ones that put on the sock. So the term you really come to find that we explore is conducive fit coaches that are socially agile and know what to be in the moment, and then in accordance with the context.
And I think that’s the thing that people forget is, and this would apply to entrepreneurial stuff, too, which I want to definitely pick your brain on. But you know, who is a great coach, let’s say in the NFL doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to be a great coach for a 13 year old soccer club, somebody that’s a great leader in the United States doesn’t make for a great leader in Japan. And so there is no and this is something that’s defended in the literature in several books, especially one by John Gardner. No one trait guarantees successful coaching or leadership. And you really just have to have this flexibility in this range to be what the situation requires a view.
So social agility is is my answer there. And more so than anything compassion, which is not the same as empathy. Compassion is this middle ground of there’s apathy, right, that I think everybody knows what apathy means. And there’s empathy, one is being too distant, the other can be too close, you actually have to have compassion, which is a little bit of a detached ability to care. And, one I want to get your thought on that. And then two I’d love to know, just, you know, how you see that even relating to business as somebody that’s own their own business, several businesses sold the business and how you even had to manage your employees? Because I’d argue coaching is similar to management leadership like that.
Danny Matta 19:13
Yeah, I think it’s very similar. You know, and it’s interesting, because I have definitely, you know, delved into learning from coaches and coaching books, like John Wooden books that he’s written and, and just looking at different styles of how people do that. And what’s interesting is it I kind of think of it sort of like charisma, right? Like the everybody can be charismatic, but like your style of charisma, my style of charisma can be vastly different just based off of our own personalities as well as in your you know, to what you said that the environment that you’re in, you know,
Like I’m, if you’re kinda like a funny guy, charisma or whatever, and you show up at like, an elite military group, you have to understand like, that’s not the place to try to be funny guy as much as it is don’t had to you know, hone that down a little bit and be a little more serious. And maybe it’s like a little bit of that. But more than anything, you have to like adjust for the room versus if you’re in an environment that allows more for that, then you have to adjust. But I think what I’ve found, and I’ve made a lot of mistakes, honestly, like a shitload when it came to employees, because when I was in the army, my first assignment, you know, I was a physical therapist and and it doesn’t really matter what your job is, once you get somewhere, if you’re like the senior ranking officer, you’re in charge of everybody in your area, right.
Brett Bartholomew 20:35
Alright, quick break in the action. If you’re one of those people that fast forwarded through the introduction, I got a bone to pick with you. I’m joking. But what I’m serious about is you do need to get to artofcoaching.com/events. Right now, we have workshops listed already for 2023. Get there, all of our events, capped at about 10 to 20 people depending on the workshop, and you can get a 10% discount right now, you sign up at any of the checkouts of those events, just by putting the code podcast10 to want to be really clear, you go to artofcoaching.com/events, you choose whether you want to come to our Brand Builder, our Speaker School, our Apprenticeship, you choose the one you want to go to.
And at checkout, all you do is enter podcast10, these are tax deductible, these are highly applicable. More importantly, they’re fun, you’re gonna learn a lot, you’re going to be pushed. But we also laugh, we don’t believe that education has to be stiff in this stuff, where you just sit in a conference room and take notes, you’re gonna get your fingerprints all over the material, you’re gonna meet some great people, we take our work very seriously, but ourselves not so much. So come out, have some fun with us come make some progress, no matter what you’re struggling with, get to artofcoaching.com/events right now.
And if that’s not your bag, and you’re not convinced, I’ll tell you what, at least check out our newsletter, it’s more free content monthly, you can go to artofcoaching.com/begin, you will get a combination of free tips, you will get some raw thoughts, you’ll get some of my favorite things that I’ve been learning and tips that I’ve been sharing with other people. It’s just, it’s all it is is a shoebox, and a bunch of snapshots of the things that have made a big difference in my life, things that I’m dealing with that I’m struggling with things that I figured out, and also a collection of really influential and helpful tips from other people. So either get to artofcoaching.com/events, or go to artofcoaching.com/begin and get involved, we can’t wait to interact with you.
Danny Matta 22:40
When I was in the army, my first assignment, you know, I was a physical therapist and it doesn’t really matter what your job is, once you get somewhere if you’re like the senior ranking officer, you’re in charge of everybody in your area, right? So I get out there and my boss is she’s pregnant and she has a lot of complications. She insists on bit on bed rest, like within, like probably two months of me being there. And all of a sudden I’m in charge of like 30 people in a couple different clinics. And I show up at the first meeting. And this a full bird colonel is in charge the hospital’s name’s Colonel Berg, who’s awesome.
And he, I don’t know what I’m doing. I have all these KPIs supposed to give them I didn’t even know this was going to happen until that day I show up. And I’m like, Sir, I don’t know what’s going on. Like, major, you know, someone says in the hospital, and he’s like, Okay, stay afterward. And we’ll help you out a little bit. So I ended up mentoring with this guy, like, I would go to his office every week or two. And he’d sit down and he knew is apparent. I didn’t know how to manage, you know, these people, and especially not government employees, kind of a hard group of people to motivate, right. And he was kind of like a Ted Lasso character. And now it’s his style. And, you know, and and I learned a lot from him.
But when I got into private practice, when I open my own business, it’s very different when you are paying everybody yourself when you know, it’s a small business that that right when you’re you have a couple employees. And what I found was the way that I would relay information, oftentimes not how they would receive it, or the way that they would relay information to me, I would think that’s how it related back to them, like being very direct. And they would take that the complete wrong way. And I’m like, wait a second, you’re direct with me should I be direct back. And no, that’s not how everybody works. They’re all kind of individual.
So what I found was, the thing that helped me the most was to get to know them on just like a deeper level, understand what their goals were and really the one book that helped me the most, is a book called The Dream manager. And that book is about, it’s a true story. It’s about a janitorial company, and they were trying to decrease their churn. It’s sort of a not like the most exciting, you know, sought after job right? So they have a lot of turnover. And what they were trying to do is basically just decrease their churn, improve the efficiency of the business. And what they found was the only way they could really do that was to like have actual one to one human conversation with people and it takes surveys of what they wanted, and it was simple things like they had unreliable transportation.
So they bought some vans and they had pickup points and drop off points. A lot of them English. was a second language. So they brought in English tutors, a lot of them their biggest goal was to buy a home. So they brought these special programs in and people to work on personal finance and all these things had nothing to do with them actually doing their job better. It had more to do with them having a great life outside of work. And that was part of their life, right? So I took that like to heart and I sat down with every single person we’ve ever worked with. I don’t know exactly what they’re trying to do, what goals you know, what were what were the important things that they wanted to do. And for me, that’s always been the biggest thing, because I know this other human being like, there’s a lot more going on than just working for me.
And the more that they know that I care about them. And I’m trying to help them achieve the things that they’re trying to do in their life, the more they’re willing to work with us to achieve the goals that we want, which is ultimately, as a, you know, CEO, or whatever it is that I function as right now, like, I’m basically the coach of the team, I’m in charge of defining the vision and trying to pull everybody there with me. And the only way to do that is for them to respect what we’re doing respect that we, you know, care for them. And that what we’re doing is mission driven, and that they’re a big part of that, and that, but we also want them to be able to have a great life outside of the company.
Brett Bartholomew 26:04
Yeah, what you’re speaking to is something you know, when I’d written Conscious Coaching, I’d use what was called the three our framework and it was just Research Relate, Reframe, because your point you need to learn as much as you can, about them and their world and their wants and their needs. The relate piece is, you know, and you don’t go ham or overshare or try to be like, Yeah, I’m one of you is just about, you know, collective self disclosure, and over the course of time, and then reframe is helping people see a similar future, you know, and, and later on, we kind of just looked at it if people love that kind of, I love things that kind of rhyme or a simplified frameworks, because when you’re in new situations, or emotions are riding high, and there’s a lot you’re trying to process, it’s just better cognitive ease, right?
So another way we’ve described it is just discovered the code decide deliver, you discovers taking in that information, wherever you’re at decode is like, Alright, how am I interpreting this? Right? And so after you’ve done that, then you have to decide, alright, how am I going to what’s my next move, and then you’ve got to manage that delivery, because that’s another piece or two, and it’s something that I think you do exceedingly well as people tend to forget. And we do use coaching, synonymous with leadership and management, you know, no matter what you know, or no matter what environment you’re around, and so much of it is in the delivery,
You know, research will show that the words we use only account for about 7 to 10% of the meaning other people interpret, right, because as you alluded to, on a military base, there’s going to be a different code or cultural understanding of certain terms than there is somewhere else or, you know, in certain countries, I can’t use certain terms that I can use other countries. And and people forget to adapt that style. So whether you’re more analytical communicator, more of a realist, more of a relator, more of an empathizer, whatever, you’ve got to say, it’s not just what’s natural to me, what is the code or the DNA, the communicative DNA of the environment? And how can I find that fit?
Is there ever a time I wonder where you know, you just bombed at that at any point where you went in as a subject matter expert, you were really enthusiastic? Not necessarily like a know at all, but you are so overtaken just by what you wanted to share? You forgot to assess the temperature of the room a little bit, and just there was a huge mismatch.
Danny Matta 28:12
Oh, dude, totally, you know, in fact, it’s one of the greatest failures I ever had, when I was in the army was I basically had to find that. So I’ll take a step back. So whenever I got stationed in Schofield Barracks, I was basically for the majority of my time there assigned to this Infantry Brigade. And there really hadn’t been anybody there before in a physical therapy role. So they didn’t really know what I did. They didn’t really know, you know, what the hell, honestly, most of them didn’t know what a PT was, they had no idea. And I’d walk around, and I’m dressed the same as everyone else. So just think I’m a company commander, I’m just an infantry officer, right.
And I had to try to explain and get buy in with the leadership about what was going on. And I thought it did a pretty good job of that. Because I would get them in as patients, they’re all hurt, right? I could get them back to some activities I like to do, I would get some one on one time with them and build some rapport. And what I found was is I was looking at at this group of 3500 ish soldiers, right, andI’m in charge of injury prevention, human performance optimization, and treating all the musculoskeletal injuries. It’s like an impossible job. And they gave me to 18 year old female medics, which is not the right is not the best fit in a group of mainly 3000 Men, right. And young men at that.
So it was like they’re really handicap meet with these two, just random medics that were actually awesome. And they did a great job, but they definitely had a harder go of it than if they had been men in those environments. It’s just a tough spot for an 18 year old female to be but I got great buy in with our division commander. So the division commanders, the generals in charge of the entire division, it’s not just that that base, it’s another one as well, for the 25th ID.
And I had this framework that I that basically I wanted two strength coaches, and two athletic trainers to be added that I could work with to help the the brigade at first, and then we’d scales across the division to cut injuries down basically and increase deployability. Because that’s a big metric is like how many of our soldiers if we had to go to war, like right now, how many of those could get what percent and they track that very, very tight. So as I looked at it, I was like, okay, you know, these are not expensive providers, I can manage these people, you know, it would have been like, a couple $100,000 a year for all the salaries,
It was like $250,000 a year for all the salaries, and we did the math on it. And I’m like, I can save us like $25 million a year. It just said, this is moderately successful. So I go into this decision brief with a guy who had been coming to see me every week, basically, for like a year, to the point where he’s like, Danny, you send me anything you think is good for the brigade, or the division from from a injury prevention standpoint, and I will send it out as it’s me sending it out. So I would send him stuff that I was seeing. And I thought, this is a shoot, shoot, when I got this, I’m gonna get these guys, we’re gonna change this, you know, division, or this brigade, and then the division.
So I do my presentation. And at the end of it, I get a no. And I was like, What the heck, what the heck is going on? I thought for sure I had this I was in the back pocket, right? And like this general could tell that I was like, frustrated, obviously. And he called me to his office afterward. And he sat me down. And he goes, Look, I think this is a great idea. But the timing isn’t right. I mean, we were in a place where we were actually supposed to deploy like a few months later, right? And so he was like the timings not right. And here’s what you got to understand. You know, at this point, he’s called me catheter, he’s like, Look habits at this point, you got to understand the army is a big ship, it turns really slowly.
And I didn’t know where I went wrong, aside from the fact that literally, you cannot get things done very fast in certain settings. And I set the expectations of like, being so into this. And so on top of this, and not realizing that this is a very slow process. And frankly, it’s one of the reasons I actually decided to leave the army, because I vividly remember he said, This is a big ship, it turns really slowly. And I remember saying, I said, Sir, I don’t know if I want to be on this ship. Like, it doesn’t make any sense how we spent this much money, like $25 million, we’re talking about, and just like sending, you know, injured soldiers out and actually stopping them from getting hurt not to include the disability that we can stop them from, you know, getting every single year for the rest of their life.
And, you know, it’s just frustrating, right, but like, My expectations were very different than his work, because he’s like, this isn’t how it works here. And I thought it was so you know, I think matching your expectations with the environment is really important. But it’s also kind of hard to know what that looks like, especially if you’re just, I mean, if you’re getting after it, and you’re excited, I’m sure you saw us with Exos, you know, and they’re just like, cool, Brett, that’s awesome. We like your ideas, but chill for a second, because we got this, this this in the works, and you don’t really see it from their side. And because you’re seeing it from boots on the ground, you’re in the gym, you know, and you want to do certain things.
Brett Bartholomew 33:05
Yeah. And there’s gonna be, you know, I’m seeing this from the other direction. Now. I mean, we have a new hire, and she’s great. But you know, she asks him questions sometimes. And I’m like, Hey, we’re running about five programs at once between our live events. I mean, as I speak to you, right now we have our 30 Day Conscious Coaching challenge going, we have our Mastermind going, we have our Brand Builder, like we have like four things going. And so I just have to remind her, I’m like, Hey, these are great ideas, but there’s a pipeline to this stuff. And you know, there’s calculated risks that you take, and you’ve got to manage it. And so it’s fun seeing it from both angles.
You know, you mentioned something that I actually wanted to bring a question that we got from one of our members in the challenge the other day, and it was about negotiation. And this is one thing I really appreciate about being your friend, is we talk a lot about, you know, their situations in life that no matter how many books are written, you know, you don’t always get a lot of just practical advice for your stickiest situations, write books give a lot of mental models or frameworks. But sometimes it’s almost and I’m learning this, there are some publishers that just like to play it safe and positive cells, which like a lot of books just don’t get into the muck.
So I want to preface this way. And I’ll give my take as well. I don’t believe there’s just one answer to this question. But I’d love to know your take. So we are doing a section on negotiation which isn’t, you know, very, it’s not unrelated to what you were just talking to. And and the member said, hey, at some point in negotiation, no matter what we know about research, no matter what we know about making people tick, you know, what makes people tick. A decision has to be made to move a negotiation forward.
For example, I’ve dealt with somebody who either doesn’t seem to know or isn’t honest about what they actually want. It doesn’t seem like they’re honest, just about their motives or their desires or their needs. And I don’t know if it’s ego or anything like that. What do you do in a situation when you’re negotiating with somebody that doesn’t seem like they know what they want or they’re on? obfuscating their strategy. So again, just absolving you of feeling like you have to do a one size fits all answer. But what’s one approach you would take? When it seems like that other party is there’s just no budging there?
Danny Matta 35:11
Yeah. Well, I mean, if somebody is intentionally, you know, not being honest about what direction that they want to go or not go like, I think it depends on the person. Sometimes it’s very easy to tell when someone’s being dishonest. For instance, yesterday, my neighbor’s kid rings my doorbell, and he has a bucket full of candy. And he goes, Hey, Mr. Danny, do you want to buy and these are like minutes, right? He’s like, Hey, do you want to buy two minutes for $1? All the money goes to charity.
And I go, what’s charity? And he goes, a food bank. And I go, where is it? He goes, I don’t know. It’s in the neighborhood. And I was like, How’d you get involved? He was like, I just decided I wanted to help people have food. And I was like, How much money goes to? And he goes, Well, half of that half of it goes to me and half it goes to the food bank, and I go, what’s it called? And he was like, I can’t remember the name. And I go, Are you actually giving this money to charity? Or are you just saying it so that you’re more likely to buy from you? And he was like, I’m just saying it.
And you know, I like I could do, you can’t do that man. Like, that’s a bad idea. I get it. It’s a good sales tactic. But you’re gonna get in trouble, dude. And he’s like, eight, right? So but like, in that scenario, he’s been dishonest, it’s pretty easy to tell. But some people you don’t know, man, because you don’t know what you know, what their intentions are, or whatever. So that’s, I think that’s really hard. If they’re honestly like, good at hiding it. But for me, I always look at like one of two things, people are either trying to move towards something positive for themselves, or they’re trying to move away from pain, right?
So if I can better understand a which which thing motivates them. And most people are more motivated from moving away from pain, like, we’re just naturally does it, you know, why or to be in as little pain as possible, whether that be career wise, physically, whatever. And so if I can get a better idea of, well, what pain is there that they have that whatever I’m trying to achieve? Gets them there? And like me, you know, saying this out loud, like, there’s so much stuff I could have done better in the snare? I told you, I didn’t know any of this stuff at the time. Right?
And you know, like, and for some people, it’s like, well, what are you trying to move towards? How does this help them? So what’s the positive thing you’re trying to move towards? And if I can better understand that, then I can better tailor the communication or the points in which I’m trying to relay why they might want to do something to them. And that’s typically the direction I tried to go.
Brett Bartholomew 37:24
Yeah, you touched on some good points there. And this is what I always think is fascinating about these questions, because it’s tough when it makes a lot of assumptions. One, you know, there’s, if a negotiation is not moving forward, it’s easy to look at the other person is stubborn, but really, you have to assess a couple of things. And we talked about in our workshops, a lot of different power dynamics to be aware of a lot of influence tactics. And in one thing that always even if you kind of play the power dynamics correctly, and you choose the right influence tactics, like the right gear for the right Hill, you tailor it. So much of it still depends on delivery, it depends on timing, it depends on the environment, it depends on,
I always tell a story about how I tried to get a raise one time at a job that I had been at for a while. And I got denied three years in a row. And then somebody finally told me, dude, fiscal budgets are set in October, you need to ask early. So in that case, it was timing. There was another person one time that reached out and there was like, oh, you know, these influence tactics haven’t been working. And it’s like, Listen, man, like, it’s not just the tactic. It’s how you deliver it. That’s like saying an advertisement or a certain appeal, or, Hey, logic doesn’t work, just because it didn’t work with these three people,
Or somebody saying, Well, I gave so and so the research, you know, and I expect them to budge. I think a lot of times people don’t want to take accountability for maybe their delivery could have been better, maybe their timing could have get gotten better. I think you have to look at creativity. You know, one thing I always look at when negotiation if somebody’s like, oh, I can’t afford your speaking fee, I’m like, alright, well, then let’s get creative. You know, we have a zone of possible agreements, they can buy discounted copies of the book on cheap, we can look it up. There’s so many other ways.
Now, if somebody just refuses to budge, you know, they don’t want to, then I won’t do business with them. Because it’s like, if I’m considering coming out there, and I have to support for my family, my business and my employees. And you don’t want to find a way to get creative, then that kind of tells me a little bit about you as a business person and the environment we’re going to have. So other than timing, environment, creativity, making sure that your deliveries right, which is why I’m a huge fan of like role playing and things like that. It is also just I think that so much is found out indirectly, right.
So people expect a lot of people to tell them what they want and what they think instead of just reading between the lines. A lot of times if I’m just talking to somebody or I’m observing them, just by hearing the words they use and kind of assessing it, think of it like a thematic analysis of like their behaviors or their words or their terms. We start to see that people by and large fit into one of these drive categories. It’s either significance, they want to do something big. They want to be known for doing something big or big. your relative, right, like impacting your community or the world or whatever. They want to be around other people. They want to feel like they’re getting better or making progress.
They want to achieve a certain status. They want to overcome something hard, or sometimes like, people just want more safety and security and certainty, like you said, they run towards pleasure away from pain. So it’s never a popular answer, right, Danny? But like, I always try to tell people like, Are you sure it’s not working? And it’s them? Have you really assessed all of these things? Remember, folks, check your timing, check your delivery, check the environment in which you’re having the conversation? How creative Have you been? How well are you listening, observing, taking it,
Believe me, nobody is impossible to negotiate with. And even if you don’t, if you feel like they don’t know, your job, then is to present them with as say, Hey, I gotta admit, here, I’m a little stuck. What about one of these three options, or any of these closer to what might be amenable? And then go from there any other thoughts on that?
Danny Matta 40:56
I mean, I feel like if, you know, Art of Coaching doesn’t work out, you could be like, a closing negotiator for hire, show up, show up in like a power suit, you know, and his bust in the room suit,
Brett Bartholomew 41:09
I’ll show up in a Zoot Suit,
Danny Matta 41:11
Bro, you’d kill it, I would hire you. If I ever go, you know, if I buy another car, I’m gonna bring you along. And I’ll definitely get a better deal.
Brett Bartholomew 41:18
No, yeah. And it’s just like, it’s funny, right? Because we started this business. And the communication questions we get are amazing. But they make you think inward a lot. Yeah. And I just know that you are somebody that puts yourself in a lot of situations, I mean, again, your background in the military, then you started a PT clinic, then you sold that, then you did this. And it’s important, like life happens when you leave home, like, and if you just pay attention, and you start looking at these things. And by and large, ask yourself, Where might I be the problem, you can make some pretty rapid progress. But if you just kind of look at, oh, man, I’m on a lot of cash, or these people won’t budge or whatever.
Danny Matta 41:55
It’s cool. I think what you bring up that’s really important that, you know, both of us now, you know, sort of, it’s interesting, I feel like we both have this sort of reluctant entrepreneurship route that we have, you know, had taken its, you know, you didn’t have a grand plan, as far as I understand to write a book that was so impactful that it, you know, was able to turn into an entire business, right, I didn’t have any desire to get out of the army. And I thought it was going to be a career, you know, Army officer, like everybody in my family. That’s right. It’s just like, it’s what we do.
And so we have these paths that we end up going down, and we end up in in these businesses to do the things that we want to do. Because we don’t, we can’t find the job that we want. And I think the thing that I’ve noticed that is the most challenging, and the most important thing to get better at is being self aware, and understanding where our deficiencies are like what our superpower and our kryptonite is, and everybody wants to double down on their superpower. Like they want to say, Okay, I’m going to delegate all the stuff I’m not good at. And that’s cool, because we can do that. And it’s actually one of the best parts of it, where we can have other people get involved, and we can sort of stay in our, you know, area of unique focus and genius.
But at the same time, if we ignore the fact that we have a lack of emotional control, you know, we’re unorganized. We’re critical of other people, you know, these things that are highlighted there, like 10. Next, whenever you go into your own business, because it all gets magnified based off of you, I think the ability to be self aware, like you’re talking about, like someone in this scenario, that maybe doesn’t realize how they’re coming across, they don’t realize the way that they’re, like, maybe when they get frustrated, their body language starts to look aggressive, and they don’t even know, you know, and yet, and then they blame somebody else.
They’re like, Oh, they’re making me mad, or like, no motherfucker, they making you mad, like, you’re just not controlling yourself and to put yourself in a place where, like your family, like them, being able to have food on the table is 100% dependent on your efforts in what you’re doing. You’re damn sure you’re probably going to work on improving the likelihood of being successful. And that oftentimes means getting better yourself personally, which is uncomfortable, because it’s never feels good to like, sit there and be like, damn, I got some holes in my game,
Like and but what’s really cool and this is what I’ve noticed with my own family and you know, my wife and our kids, but also my family around me, my brothers, my sister, my parents and my extended family is like, as soon as I started to accept the fact that I had some things that were not all that positive, you know, especially I had a very short temper, you know, I know I’m guessing you probably did too know just with our time together watching you take so much aggression out of your your punching bag,
Brett Bartholomew 44:38
Danny but like I’m going I’m Wolverine is Halloween this year?
Danny Matta 44:45
So, but I having to deal with that, you know, and instead of what I was told my whole life is like, Oh, we’re Italian. We’re just hot blooded. This the way we’re built, right? We’re all like that, like, yeah, because none of us have ever tried to improve it. And you know, and it is something weak. and improve, we don’t have to be just, you know, crazy, you know, short tempered people like we can be have emotional control. And we can be better about managing situations, if we’re willing to admit that we suck at something and get better. So I feel like what you talked about being self aware, I mean, that’s the key, in my opinion, to unlocking all these problems that they’re talking about, because it’s always going to be us. And then,
Brett Bartholomew 45:18
yeah, I mean, you touch on something here that I think is interesting, because when we started this business, and there’s a question in here for you, that I think is going to be fascinating to hear, you know, you can look at it and say, Okay, my product is communication. You know, we teach people how to navigate the messy realities of leadership from a relational standpoint. But I was thinking about this the other day, when I heard that Disney was talking about how their core product is happiness.
And I talked to my staff, because we were running our facilitator course. And I said, you know, it’s interesting, I don’t think our product is communication, I think that’s a vehicle that we help people become, you know, more skilled at, and it’s something that is a part of what we do, I also don’t think that we just help with clarity, even though that’s byproduct of some of our work and our outputs, and whatever. And I don’t even think that it’s just connection, even though a lot of people have said, they come to our stuff for connection,
I go, I think our core product is progress. And to your point, progress happens through self awareness. But here is virtue advice, right? We felt like, Alright, I’m giving up, I’m changing careers, putting our all our life savings, my family name behind a business that is selling people on the value of communication, this skill that, you know, this thing that you don’t see, but like gravity impacts everything around us. But inherently, it’s also something that most people either feel like they’re already good enough at, despite not getting it out any evaluation or training or really knowing the nuances. Or it’s something to your point that makes people really uncomfortable.
So we found early on, one of the things is, there are certain people that didn’t buy or didn’t come. And then years later, they’d come to our workshop. And I’m like, Hey, I know we started kicking the tires, you opened emails, you did this, you asked a lot, what made you come finally, like, take it take a chunk out of this. And they said, Man, I really realized that there was a point where I had to look in the mirror and do the hard stuff. And I looked at my wife, and I’m like, how could we have ever changed our advertising. So it kind of spoke people to do the hard stuff.
Because, you know, people first they they fight you, then they laugh at you, then they join you. But it’s hard to get people to do the hard stuff. And you were in an industry for a long time that help people you know, like, Hey, you can only beat yourself up or not listen to your body for so long. But it’s gonna scream at you eventually. And now, you know, you’ve been an entrepreneur in a different capacity. I wonder, given all that context? What is your product? Now? What do you use? How do you see what is your product? The thing you give people? And how have you encountered both resistance to it? And then helped people really see new value in it?
Danny Matta 47:50
Yeah. I mean, I think about it more in the term of momentum. So, like progress is, I think, and I think it’s very similar, you know, as I look at, what you’re talking about with your company, and and also I would say your company has evolved quite a bit, just just having known you for a few years now. And being able to see, you know, what you’re doing and talking to you, you know, about the company along the way. And just seeing, you know, kind of where are you guys started with like, buy in was big, right?
Like buy in was was a big thing with you coach communication, how to get athletes to be able to, you know, want to do the work, right. And now what I see is, there’s just so much more of a broad benefit to so many other people in terms of improving their ability to have meaningful relationships with the people around them, that could be their coworkers, that could be their family, you know, friends. And when we look at communication, in particular, right, it is and you say it’s like gravity. And I love that reference. Because you’re right, we have to do it.
And it’s not something that anybody gets trained on, right? Like, it’s more important than so many things that we actually get actual structure training on because it’s so involved. And if we look at people’s ability to, you know, go up in their career in different jobs. I mean, how much of that is emotional intelligence versus IQ, right? It’s like, no one really cares how smart you are. And if you’re super smart, it’s a detriment at a certain point, you know, versus people that are like socially fluid, and they just figured it out somehow in elementary school, but it doesn’t mean that other people can’t learn these skills and have just as much happiness and success.
Because if I can only imagine being somebody that thinks I’m communicating in a way I’m trying to, like, share how I feel with somebody and the way that it’s received or the way that the world perceives it is totally off what you’re trying to do, like, how frustrating that would be how challenging that would be. And also that would could lead to like so many other mental health problems where you think people don’t like you, or they you know, they don’t want to be around you. Or and really, it might just be that like, what your intentions are look different. To the outside world than what what you mean so
I think what you guys are doing is just so important, not just for adults, I think, eventually, potentially, even for children just to understand some of these things that, you know, especially during COVID, like, think about how many social skills they may have lost out on with just being not around people quite as much. So
Brett Bartholomew 50:15
They call it social atrophy. I mean, like that term was coined during COVID. And he saw it in adults who saw it in children, and I still think within the next 10 years, you’re gonna see the ramifications of it. I mean, there’s a reason to your point, why social isolation is the worst thing you can do to somebody when people are inherently the preeminent social animal in the world.
Danny Matta 50:34
Yeah, for sure. No, and I mean, I think, you know, to what you guys are doing, I just think it’s so important. And for us, you know, we’ve sort of drilled down to this right, and, you know, and as we look at, like, what defines us and what we do, you know, I mean, we have very simple core values, it’s, you know, leading from the front, doing dope shit with dope people, which is straight up Snoop Dogg quote, and try harder, try harder is the last one that we have. Right? And you’ve talked about this, too, you know, and you said it, you know, like, are you trying hard enough.
And all we have to do with the people that we work with now, is if they have a problem, and we think that, you know, like, we’ll help them problem solve it, but one of the things we’ll ask, and this is really, like, it’s more like your dad being not mad at you, but disappointed, you know, and it’s just like, do you feel like you’re trying hard enough? You know, you say these things aren’t working? But are you trying hard enough? Do you really feel like you’re trying hard enough? And most people, the answer is no.
And what we tend to really help them with, on the business side, you know, is because we help clinicians, you know, start grow and scale their businesses, and they didn’t go to school for these things, they learned how to be a great clinician, and they’ve been frustrated by a really shitty medical system, which, you know, it’s not, it’s not a great place to not a great environment to work. So we teach them how to apply what they’ve learned in a business setting. And for us, it’s about momentum.
It’s about just that that feeling of momentum that we all when we feel it, as entrepreneurs in particular, it’s awesome, dude, it’s like the greatest feeling, it’s like hitting a homerun, you know, when you’re working on a project, or you’re doing like a new launch, and people start, like buying in on it, and their courses are filling up, you’re like, This is fucking awesome. And then, but on the flip side, if things are going south, it can ruin you around everybody around you, too, if you let it because you’ve lost that momentum.
So that’s the big thing that we constantly talk about is like, you can feel it, you can feel in a positive way. And even if you lose it, there’s ways where you can kind of regain it by learning the right things and doing the right work and focusing on that. But that’s primarily what we help people with. And I think that that’s like a really important thing for them to understand what that feeling is, and then also how to change that state if they start going in the wrong direction.
Brett Bartholomew 52:36
Yeah, I think that’s a great answer. And one thing I’ve always really admired about you, and you’re the one that talked me into it, I remember it’s probably 2018 2019. And you had convinced me, you had said, Hey, do you do a mastermind? And I’m like, Ah, man, I hate the name. You know, just because I endorse, yeah, well, anytime. I mean, that was just so foreign to me. And anytime I saw something like that, it was always some like, scammy cheesy, hey, do you want a private jet? Do you want a platinum blonde and a life that your best, you know, and the or there’d be some good like, 10 at your business? And yeah, I just didn’t resonate.
And then you know, when I found out what you did was so many of the folks that were physical therapists, and I’ll let you elaborate on this more, but just to get a core point, you know, getting people that were saying, hey, like, it doesn’t make sense to be an insurance base, you know, kind of classic physical therapist, you can go out, get what you’re worth, provide more value, create a life that’s in line with your goals and your values, and also give people more bespoke service. I was in awe because I looked at that industry. And I saw Wow, here are a lot of physical therapists that have healthy attitudes towards money.
Now, everybody, you know, in every profession has different levels of risk aversion and whatever. But I just thought you had this empire, people that actually wanted to provide sound strategies to getting a cash based practice and getting out of this mill. And I remember early on, I was like, I don’t know, Danny, like strength coaches, which was our primary population. So at the time, now, it’s folks in over 36 different professions. And, well, yeah, we definitely are not a strength and conditioning company. That was the biggest thing that I think change went from 2018 to 2020.
But the point was, at that point in time, I was like, if I started that, there are strain coaches that think $100 for seeing like six speakers in a workshop for an hour is like expensive, they are really unhealthy attitudes towards money. A lot of that was just cultivated by a field that kind of had that Fox and sour grapes kind of thing of like, well, we don’t make much money. So we’re going to vilify money as opposed to seeing money as a tool for freedom. But then when we started opening it to more people and people that were just kind of stuck and wanted, not an echo chamber, but people that were like, Hey, I kind of want my perspective challenge. I need momentum. I need progress.
Cool. We started seeing that we started seeing this cross pollination. I have to wonder when you went the entrepreneurship route for the first time. I mean, did you not have whether it’s building your mastermind your business doing what you’re doing now? Did you never feel like hey, I want to take this risk, but I have people depending on me, I don’t know or hey, I don’t lack the knowledge. But there’s some confidence here and you just never really know. Was there any of that or imposter phenomenon? Or anything like this? Or was it ever just like Or was it always just balls to the wall? I know my worth, I know my value, screw it, we’re going for it.
Danny Matta 55:21
Oh, no, absolutely not. You know, I mean, just recently, you know, when you came to the event, and you spoke in the end of 2019, right, you know, we had 50, or 60 people that we were working with at the time were that were in that room. And when we did our event, just last month in Atlanta, and we had, we had 200. So like, we’ve grown like crazy, right? But each time that we could come together, it’s just twice a year, I feel like an impostor, every time, every single time.
Like, it’s not something that stops me from doing what I know, I need to do, you know, and being able to spend every single minute that I possibly can at those events, trying to connect with people and help them meet other people that are going to be meaningful relationships for them. And, like, by the end of these events, I’m done absolutely dead, like just brain dead. I don’t want to talk to anybody for days. But you know, when I walk in, anytime I walk into a room like that, or even talking on your podcast about this stuff, right?
It’s like, what there’s, there’s lots of other people that have, you know, more experience and have accomplished more and all these things. And I feel that way with the groups that we work with, to and even, you know, talking to other people about the businesses that we’ve grown and even been able to sell. So like, I feel impostor syndrome around it, but I also feel like, it’s not crippling, it’s not stopping me from doing anything. And I’ve been talking about being self aware. Like, I’ve gotten to the point now, where I realized, the reason I feel that way, is because, frankly, because it’s important, because it means a lot to me. And one of the reasons we’ve had as much success as we’ve had is because it’s meaningful.
Like it’s not as cash grab for us. It’s literally so important that we would do for free if we didn’t have to pay for groceries and no mortgage. Right. And so that impostor syndrome is not that I’m, you know, I feel like I shouldn’t be there. It’s that it’s so important that I don’t want to screw it up. And I have some anxiety around that. And there’s humility that I don’t know, there’s plenty of things I don’t know.
So I feel like I will always biased towards that verse. I’ve seen people and I’ve gone to conferences, and I’ve had mentors that swing the complete opposite direction. And for whatever reason, I don’t gravitate towards that one bit, where it’s like overconfidence, it’s like, why are you so confident about this? Like, how can you be so sure, like, I’m just I never really get to that point. I’m always because I’m just constantly looking at things from so many different angles.
And I’m just, I’m like, Listen, I don’t know, I’m gonna, I’m gonna give you my best answer. But I’m not 100% Sure. And, you know, here’s what I think. And I think for a lot of people, what I’ve found is that, that being authentic and being and not in a, I’m going to be vulnerable right now bullshit marketing way. But like, literally just being another human being that cares about the people that you’re actually working with, on not on a superficial level, but deep, deep level of wanting them to have success.
I think that if you do that, there’s no way that you can be arrogant, there’s no way you can be an asshole and not have this feeling of responsibility. That is that weighs on me, it honestly does. But it’s also something that, like, I’m okay to carry that, you know, because I know that I have to do amount of work and continue to do a lot of work to be able to stay in that place. And if I ever feel like I’m not capable of it, then we’ll hire another CEO. And I’ll, you know, I’ll move on to a different company, you know, so
But I think it’s important, and I see the same thing with you, man, even with the people that you work with the people that I know, that have worked with you at your events, and like the level at which you care about these other business owners. It’s just like, I don’t think it’s that common. And, you know, it should be but it’s not and there’s just a lot there’s all these just absolute, you know, salesmen out there that just don’t give a fuck about people and they just want to make money. Like it’s that’s their goal. And I don’t think I could ever function like that. I don’t think
Brett Bartholomew 59:12
Yeah, no, I mean, I think here’s, here’s something that I, I’ve learned I, we talked about people being risk averse, and things like that sometimes when it comes to betting on yourself, but I think if most people were honest, and really looked into the midnight of their souls is Robert McKee would say, I think there’s a lot of people that are actually scared of success. And you know, they feel like they’ve got to have this pure, like this system that’s going to tell them everything. This is what you should do. And this is how you should think,
And like, here’s the problem, like we can paint by the numbers, but great paintings can never really be created that way. And I think that there are some people that actually think that you can generate high performance just by looking at the numbers but there are intangibles to this thing and it starts off with you knowing what is enough with risk had to success but also you having a confidence that you can actually deliver for others at that level.
Like when people are even like we talked about this on the last podcast you were at, some people won’t even charge what they’re worth not because they feel bad about the money because they’re actually scared, they can’t deliver at the level that they need to substantiate what they want to charge to begin with. Yeah. And I think that you’ve always done that, you know, you whenever I’ve seen people ask you questions about these things. And you’ve never just said, Hey, here’s a rigid system. Here’s a roadmap. And there are some things here that we know work for sure. First Principles mental model, but it’s still going to be dependent on you.
And so it’s not a system as much as it a map. Because there’s a legend and there’s many different routes. You want to take a dirt road, you want to take an interstate, you want to do this. But like, yeah, I think it’s interesting, when people have to be really honest with themselves about Is this me? You know, in my Oh, is it the time? Is it the energy? Isn’t the money is an imposter phenomenon? Or is or No? Are you actually scared of what would happen if you succeeded at the level that you never thought you could exceed succeed at?
Danny Matta 1:01:02
Or if you didn’t? Like, you know, I think that scares a lot of people to is like, yeah, they wouldn’t know what to do if they if it worked. You know, it’s like, if my dog catches a squirrel, you know, he’s like, I’m trying to kill the squirrel. But what’s actually happened to like, oh, shit, I gotta go through with it. You know? And, and like, you know, that maybe he doesn’t, right. And when I see though, on the flip side of that is, and I was there too, because I remember going into my clinic whenever I started my practice in Atlanta. I remember asking, Jim, my mentor is for years has been Kelly Surrett.
And, you know, Kelly, somebody that I just kind of look at as just a really good person. He’s great with his, you know, with his wife, his kids great relationship. But more than anything, I think he’s a great clinician, great educator. And I asked him, I said, Well, if somebody’s coming to pay me, and they don’t get better, what do I do? And he goes, he goes, Danny, the human body is not like, it’s not a bicycle. It is so intricate, there’s so many things going on. And he goes, as long as you do the right thing for the person in front of you. And they know that they’re not going to care.
Because the it’s impossible to say, Yes, this is exactly what’s going to happen. And we can have within reason, like a good estimate of how successful we can be with people. But there’s plenty of things that we don’t understand still about the human body. And he’s like, that’s fine. You have to be okay with that. And I get that question all the time. And that would apply to personal trainers, you know, nutritionists, massage therapists, physical therapists, anytime a clinician is working with somebody that trying to get a result, or even a consultant, at this point.
Now they’re like, Well, what if they your business doesn’t grow? Right? Well, as long as you tried your best, and you really cared about that person, and you really gave them the amount of effort that you that they deserve, then they’re not going to care, like, and I’m sure you’ve had that too, with people where it’s like, I’ve gone through this course, and maybe didn’t get the outcome that they wanted for any number of other factors. But as long as they’re like, Man, I felt like they delivered what they say they were going to deliver. They were honest, you know, they, they were responsive, and they cared about me, and they really wanted me to get this result.
Well, I’m fine with that. Because it didn’t happen. And there’s some things I have to accept about that, because he can definitely be that person’s fault or other factors. But as long as you did the right thing for them, they’re gonna feel like, you know, they enjoy doing business with you, and they’re gonna have great things to say about it, regardless of the actual outcome.
Brett Bartholomew 1:03:14
Yeah, no excellent points on that front. I think that’s a big reason why I one of the reasons I really wanted to always incorporate role playing at our live events, because it’s easy for people to say they didn’t get what they wanted if you’re just relying on lectures, and information, because people you’re just never going to meet everybody’s expectations. But when you can actually teach them through experiential learning, and they have to be a part of something rather than a piece of something. They’re in part responsible for their own experience.
You know, there and, and plus, especially when you want to increase self awareness, that nothing doesn’t like role playing, and we’ll do self where people, you know, they roleplay that advert, we just, it’s an adversarial simulation, right? All I’m asking my boss for a raise, I’m having this conversation. And they’ll do it a lot of times as them and somebody else will play their boss or the other person. But then we have them the third time, Do it as flip it.
So now you’re the person that you’re having conflict with, and somebody else is, is you in this situation, and almost everybody walks out of it being like, Whoa, that was it. Now, if that like tactical role playing doesn’t do it for him, this biologists in Wisconsin, we did like applied improv. And we did a little bit of that with your group, where we take like, you know, almost Whose Line Is It Anyway, type games, and we help people get into the abstract. Because sometimes people are so close to problem, they actually need to remove themselves from it and kind of engage in this form of serious play, where they engage in the open endedness of things.
But the point is, you gotta have people that have skin in the game, because whether it’s the question they asked you, or some of the questions we get the through line, a lot of it is hey, I’m really uncomfortable with uncertainty. And I want you to tell me what to do here. Yeah, it leads me to another question I want to ask you and then I’m gonna turn to us some things. And this is another open ended one coming from one of are challenged members, we told them, you’re gonna have some guests on here. And it’s very open ended. So attack it wherever you want.
And they said, what are some strategies you found useful when there’s a person that Oh, am paraphrasing this because some of the wording is unique? What are some of the strategies you have found useful when a person struggles to receive your messages. And it’s not just somebody that they struggled to receive the message as intended. But it’s a colleague in which your relationship and communication is vital to the success of your role. So it’s essentially asking, how the heck do you cope when your message does not seem to get across to folks.
And there’s also why just to set you up for success, we tell people, Hey, don’t be surprised when that happens. Miscommunication is the baseline of the human experience, because you can’t read people’s minds. But what would you say? If there’s something that’s just like, something’s not getting through? What are your some of your go to strategies?
Danny Matta 1:05:55
Yeah, I mean, for me, I try to get out of whatever the most, whatever the environment is that they’re in together the most, right? So I think any, it could be going to lunch, it could be grabbing coffee, it could be going for a walk, it doesn’t really matter. But I think if you can, honestly, if you can get out of that environment. And in particular, like, let’s say there’s a goal that that they’re trying to work together on, and they’re having some conflict with working on this project. And they’re trying to, you know, he’s trying to make some headway, and somebody is not necessarily maybe doing the things that they need to do.
First things first, like that, I looked at this with employees, like the first thing I would always want to know, and it’s almost always the case, if somebody is typically good, and then all of a sudden, shit starts to fall off, like, something is wrong in their life. Something is stressing them out in their life, there’s other factors, that they are not like separating from the work environment is very hard to do. And I’ve done this now with multiple employees that we’ve had, and it’s always been family member sick, you know, something bad has happened on the homefront, like, they’re struggling with their relationship with their spouse, you know,
There was one example where we had an employee that, like they were struggling to have kids, you know, they’re struggling to get pregnant. And they’re like, man, what, what is what’s going on? Right? And it’s easy, I think, to look at somebody, like, why don’t they just do what they’re supposed to do to pull their weight or to do whatever, right? But like, all of these other factors that can lead to that, if you never ask somebody about that, and especially if you can take them out of that environment, I think it’s so helpful and just, you know, go on a walk, and just like, hey, are you okay? You know, like, it seems like you’re off a little bit, you know, is there something going on that, you know, that maybe I can help with? I’m just, you know, or just listen, I’m just curious.
And, oftentimes, that’s, that’s what it is. So I love to get people out of the environment, like to figure out like, what might be going on. And then from there, it’s like, trying to figure out how we can kind of come together on like, the importance of whatever it is that we’re trying to do to make sure that we have success with that. And again, for me, I’m constantly trying to figure out what motivates people. And it’s usually either, you know, hey, it’s gonna make us look awesome, or, Hey, we do this, we will get fired, right?
Like, it’s like, one of those is going to be the factors like moving towards something positive, moving away from something negative. So for me, that’s kind of my advice. And I know, it’s hard to say when in the the circumstance of the question, but more often than not, it’s the people. Not the job, right, it’s what else is going on in your life. And that is what I’ve seen most often to be the case with people that are struggling with something at work.
Brett Bartholomew 1:08:30
Yeah, I mean, no problem. This is a primary example of, again, it just shows why do we need training on this? Because so many people lack these tactics. I mean, there are so many options here, aside from the one that you suggested, sometimes it’s not the message, it’s the messenger. And so this is why we always say lean on a coalition tactic, try to find an influential third party, it can still be a peer, lateral, anything like that, but find an influential third party. I mean, if my wife if I want to go do something, and my wife says, No, I mean, Bronson is a great puppet to you.
But like, and we would do this with athletes and things like that, too. I mean, this is also a testimonials are, I think, again, there’s a lot of people that just don’t practice and refine their delivery. It’s kind of like a comic asking, What do I do if a joke bombs? Do I just throw out the joke? Well, no, it might not be a bad joke, you might just need to change your delivery or the timing, right? Like comedic timing is a real thing. You made a great point about environment, people forget that environment is one of the strongest dictators of human behavior.
I think the other thing is, and there’s many, but I’m not going to give all the way the goods away. Some of you just need to get to our workshop. I said that with a smile. Too many people still try to lead with logic. They still think that if they just get people, facts, figures, statistics, and we did a whole podcast on this guy, so go back and include in the show notes, but logic does not change the majority of people’s minds. It’s just not how people work. So I think you know, most people I don’t think I know people lead with emotion and everybody from day Daniel Kahneman and Antonio
Oh my God, why am I forgetting this now? Oh, we put it in our work all the time. This is the first time I’ve ever had this problem. But you read the book de cartes error and and it just talks about people lead with emotion. And again, Dan it’s just people lead with certainty. So one of the last things I want to ask you is talked about, you know, not being afraid of the unknown.
And I admire you for many reasons but I love you know, recently you sold a business of yours, you and your family you really have created a life and a work life that fits your value. Take your kids on all kinds of trips, teach them about the world because we know the best form of education is travel and firsthand experience. Man like what adventure what like, what’s still on the list for you sold a business you traveled tremendously. You’ve spoken around the world, you’ve been in the military, you’ve been like John Wick, you’ve served and been of service. What’s next?
Danny Matta 1:10:58
Well, man,
Brett Bartholomew 1:11:01
And mention that revamp book, by the way, because this is relevant to a lot of folks, and we’re gonna plug the hell out of it. Whether you do or not.
Danny Matta 1:11:09
Yeah, I mean, I, first of all, I think it’s always interesting, when other people make you sound cooler than you are, you know, I think that like what all we’re trying to do, honestly, is just help my profession, right, you know, like, I’m a physical therapist, I identify as physiotherapists. If somebody asked me at a dinner party, what do I do for a living? Yeah, I haven’t seen a patient in almost two years, because we’ve been so busy with, you know, with with PT biz, that I just, I had to drop something.
And that was the thing for me that I like, oh, and I really enjoy it. I, it’s, you know, I’m a nerd, when it comes to the profession. I really like it. But I, you know, for me, what I see, and I’m sure you see this in the coaching world, too, is just, you know, underpaid, disgruntled profession of people that are like overworked. And, you know, they don’t see much of a way out. And for me, we found a slight tweak we can make to our career to our skill set. And we can improve, you know, decreased burnout, improve income, improve impact to people that they really enjoy working with. And that’s the primary goal.
I mean, I want to help as many of my peers get to the same point that we’ve been able get to, and, you know, and do that over as long as it takes, right, that’s it, I don’t really have any other any other goals besides just trying to be just become a better person overall, like, there’s plenty of things that you need to improve as a husband, you know, like you as you’re talking about logical stuff, I’m laughing over here, because I’m like, Oh, this is helping me so much. Like I am leading with logic with Ashley far too much. And it just doesn’t work, right.
Like, there’s all these things I need to improve just as a spouse, as a parent, I feel like it’s being a parent is so fucking hard, man. Like, especially and I haven’t even hit that, like middle school years, like, you know, my son is in fifth grade, my daughter is in third grade. And I’m already starting to see some of the things I’m gonna have to deal with. And what I hope is that as I have tried to improve myself, that I can help teach them skills that like, you know, our parents just said, Hey, just go figure it out. Like, that was such a common phrase in my family was like, just go figure it out.
And, be like, Okay, let me go to the library or whatever, or go talk to somebody that’s older than me and see what the hell I’m supposed to do. I don’t really know. Versus like me, being able to say, hey, like, I’m reading the How to Win Friends and influence people book with my son. And, and here’s what we do. And this and the reason I think it’s important is that book helped me tremendously. Like if that someone had been on, give me that book, and I would have understood it in high school, it wouldn’t my high school years would have been way better.
And so you know, my son’s 11. And I said, Hey, Jack, I’ll give you 10 bucks. If you listen to this book, and he reads it, while we listened to it, saying
Brett Bartholomew 1:13:53
how old
Danny Matta 1:13:54
He’s 10. Yeah, he’ll turn 11 Next month, or I’m sorry, two months. So he’s 10 for now, but almost 11. And I said, I’ll give you 10 bucks, you’re gonna read this, while we listen to it, we’re gonna listen to each chapter twice. And at the end, you have to write an essay on it, and he goes, I’ll do it for 13 and I say, I say why. 13 And he was like, because it’s halfway between 15 and 10. And I go, but you’re supposed to go to 15 and then I meet you at 13. So now I technically have to meet you at like, 11 and a half. And he goes, No, the numbers 13.
And so I was like, okay, 13 If you put together a PowerPoint presentation, and you present to the family on lessons learned from this book, so we’re in the middle of doing this right now. We agreed on it. We’re through chapter two last night. And so instead of me saying like, Hey, Jack, just go figure out how to be a better communicator. Now, at least I know, this helped me, let me help you. And we’re going to learn a skill which would be public speaking to your family at the same time, and I’ll give him way more money and $13 if that actually works, but I’m not going to do it. It’s that much more valuable to me, right?
So like, these are the things that I’m trying to improve and just be better at. And, you know, it’s just like, it’s fun, but it’s also just, it never ends, right? You feel like, you know, you’re always missing something. And but frankly, that’s like, that’s the exciting part, right? I mean, I just don’t know what I would do, if I wasn’t trying to improve something. And business gives me a never ending loop of things that I have to get better at, and improve. Because if I wasn’t doing that, I think I would be miserable. To be honest with you, I think it would be like really depressed.
And if I had to sit in a government job and just wait to get promoted and wait for somebody to move me or do some ancillary training I didn’t need to do. I think I would just be miserable man. And I would just like kind of waste away my life, in my opinion, right. And that’s not right for everybody. But I think that’s what I have to do.
Brett Bartholomew 1:15:45
Yeah, well, I think everything you speak to there is you’re in a natural problem solver, you know, and you’re also one of those guys that could you have the gift to tell somebody to go to hell, but you’ll do it so nicely. The last four directions. Yeah. Which is, really interesting. Okay. All right, and you’re teaching Jack and your kids how to solve problems as well. And I think again, this goes back to my disdain for how we have this tendency to this world that just wants to know what to think instead of how to think it’s like putting bomb on a wound that requires reconstructive surgery.
Yeah, you know, when people will just edit they live life with a formulaic approach, it’s not really going to work there. But okay, get after it. And it’s fine for some things, right? Like, because some people do need a roadmap. But listen, this is the second time you’ve come on, after the third time you get a smoker jacket. So you know, we’ll need to plan this. You’ve got a revamped version of your book coming out, you have got a new business, you’ve provided us with a ton of value you always do. So tell our listeners where they can go to support you now?
Danny Matta 1:16:53
Sure, yeah, I’m the easiest place to, you know, to learn more about what I’m up to now. And the company that I, you know, in sort on the forefront of with is physicaltherapybiz.com. So we just call it PT biz, because it’s shorter.
Brett Bartholomew 1:17:10
Right, b i Z?
Danny Matta 1:17:11
Yeah, b i z. And yeah, so I wrote a book a couple years ago, and it’s called Fuck Insurance. And I still stand by the title. The challenge with the title is Amazon and other big social networks have decided that words like that are not great to put on the front of a book. And also, my mom’s super excited that I’m changing the name of it, because now she can tell her friends that I wrote a book and that it’s not called Fuck Insurance. But so we revised it, I mean, there’s a ton of new chapters and, and just honestly, it’s been year, so like lessons learned of like better systems and approaches to running a cash practice.
And a cash practice, really, if anybody’s unfamiliar with that is, it’s a clinic where you don’t accept insurance. And it’s very similar. If you’re a personal trainer in particular, or you’re a mental health specialist, or you’re working in the nutrition world, anything where it’s like, I’m a professional, you are seeking my help, you know, this is how we set it up. And that’s primarily what the you know, what the book is, and why I wrote it. And what’s been awesome is to see, you know, how many 1000s of people around the world have actually bought it, and have read it and have actually been able to apply it because, you know, we revamped it, it’ll come back out probably end of this year. And it will be the cash PT field manual,
Because when I wrote it, I thought to myself, like, Man, because I have a field manual. When I was in the military, it was like, Okay, there’s like lots of them, right? It’s like, you know, here’s the officer’s Field Manual. And for whatever, here’s, like, there’s like, field names for anything, how to clean this certain weapon, or any, you know, so, but I didn’t have a field manual for what I was trying to do. No one really, at the time had done what I was doing so, and I was like, man, what would have been really helpful? Is this, like, if I could have gone to the chapter of, okay, how do I get patients? Because it’s really hard. And I could say, like, okay, all right, FM dash, whatever, field manual here, and I go here, and then I can read that or, like, you know, how do I sell my services?
How do I deal with you know, the challenges of self doubt associated with doing these things and so like, all these chapters are just they’re very tactical, they’re written from, you know, the visibility and sort of like the viewpoint of somebody that’s in it that has done it. And not theory I’m not trying to just come up with like, well, maybe this is the best way and it’s, I don’t have any research to cite all I have to cite is a bunch of fucking mistakes and hard work and about 1000 people at this point that we’ve helped start and grow their businesses. And that’s what’s in the book. You know, it’s there’s not much fluff. It’s literally exactly what you need to be able to grow a practice to, you know, a six figure practice and do it with minimal investment on your end if you’re willing to put the work in.
Brett Bartholomew 1:19:45
I appreciate that and guys, like always, we will put this in the show notes. Danny, you know, they say that certain friends are more reminiscent of the family you choose. And that is definitely the case. With you and Ashley, Liz and I love you a lot and we have Appreciate you guys so much, you always come on here and just give a ton of value without agenda, you lock and load, it’s refreshing to have a guest like you, you know, you ran a podcast, no matter what you get a lot of folks on and the vast majority of them are great, but there’s sometimes always folks that, you know, they they kind of want to push something early as opposed to just opening up being real people and providing value.
That’s never a concern with you. And you know, all supports it till the day I die. So I appreciate everything. You’ve taught me everything you continue to teach our audience and those around us and everything that you do, man.
Danny Matta 1:20:30
Well, I just have to say, for anybody that likes Brett’s podcasts, I’m gonna take 50% credit for how great your podcasts, because I remember sitting down with you, and I said, I know anybody that should be doing a podcast, it’s you dude. Like, you know, a ton of interesting people. You’re incredibly like, great speaker. And I remember when you started doing it, I was like, this is gonna blow the fuck up and to see where you’re at now. And to see how well your podcast is doing and to see like your business now this is really crazy.
Like to see where you’re at with your business. And I know all the stuff you guys have going on and to see Liz now get involved, you guys be able to like work well together. And the number of people you’re helping and and and then people in our community that have gone to your events and had just amazing things to say about how, you know, they’ve been able to apply that in their business, but also in their family, like, dude, the work you’re doing is so cool, man. I’m just so excited to see the progress that you’re you know, that you’re making.
And I know how much hard work you’re putting in this isn’t like, the shit isn’t easy, guys, like if you look at what Brett’s doing is hard, so hard to stay on top of it. And to really be good at all these things and get a doctorate and have a family life. And oh, add a kid to the mix. Oh, and start this other element of the business and all these things that you’ve been able to do pretty damn seamlessly.
So, man, I just appreciate the opportunity to chat. Honestly, we don’t get together enough. I wish that we did. You know, we just were too busy people and every time we get a chance together with you and Liz, it’s always enjoyable. So I’ll just count this as a meeting that, you know, we would have had any way to make a podcast and hopefully other people find some value out of it. Because maybe we would have talked about this anyway.
Brett Bartholomew 1:22:06
Yeah, no question. We’ll do breakfast again. I mean, if only you didn’t take 20% of our business, you know, you gave me all these ideas. What are you guys don’t know as he takes 20% under the table, he adds more on that on top of the VIG otherwise a guy named Jimmy bag of doughnuts comes up with a lead pipe, you know, and you’re just takes it out of my knee. And then I gotta go see Danny to fix it. So it’s really nice. It’s big ruse.
Danny Matta 1:22:26
I when I act like I’m really nice, but to be honest with you, I’m just I’m not just a con. I’m a con man. And I’m gonna get it. Yeah, the whole time just making money off you every way
Brett Bartholomew 1:22:36
somewhere between Sal Ron. And you know, one of the people in the Ray Liotta and one of the gangster movies is where you say
Danny Matta 1:22:42
Yeah, it’s like Harvey Dent, right? Like Harvey Dent was always a bad guy. We just watched long enough to figure out that he was actually a bad guy. Yeah,
Brett Bartholomew 1:22:48
no question. Alright guys, until next time, Brett Bartholomew, Danny Matta. Check the show notes. Tell a friend tell a friend. We’ll talk to you next time.
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