In Art Of Coaching Podcast

On Episode 24 of the Art Of Coaching Podcast I am honored to be joined by coach Roy Holmes.

Roy is a veteran coach who worked his way up in the industry from physical therapy aid and IKEA employee to being the performance manager at Exos as well as overseeing NFL combine and veteran training. Tune in to hear how Roy has successfully navigated the gray areas of coaching and more.

Topics Covered On This Episode

  • Roy’s background
  • How working in the customer service industry plays a role in coaching development
  • Why skipping the journey never works
  • Living in the grey area and why dogma shouldn’t exist in coaching
  • How to get out of a situation where you are getting burnt out
  • The keys to being good in a managerial role
  • If you want to succeed you have to fail
  • Developing mastery through repetition
  • The value of doing the little tasks the right way
  • How to filter information & to know what’s valuable


This information is kept free by our partnership with Momentous. To learn more about Momentous and what they do to help our community go to As part of the Art of Coaching audience, you can receive $20 off your 1st order of Momentous by using code BRETT20 at checkout. (Minimum purchase amount of $50).

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Brett Bartholomew  0:06  

Welcome back, everybody to another episode of The Art of coaching Podcast. I’m here this morning with my good friend and strength and conditioning coach Roy Holmes, Roy, what up?


Roy Holmes  0:14  

How’s it going, man? Good to have me on here, man.


Brett Bartholomew  0:18  

Yeah, good to have you on man. Roy, before we jump on, why don’t you give everybody a little bit of background about yourself and, feel free to go into as much detail as possible, but just kind of touch on your career, and then how you and I know each other.


Roy Holmes  0:29  

Yeah. So I think my, career kind of started off a little bit as a journeyman, I started off, always playing sports. So as a youth athlete, I’ve always, baseball, you know, football, different things like that. And then all throughout college, I was a walk on football player at a small school out in Arizona, and, then after I left school, that’s when I started coaching actual high school football. And that’s where I kind of started cutting my teeth, in the kind of like the coaching industry. So I did two years in Flagstaff at a small school up there, and then I relocated to the valley, in the Phoenix area. And that’s really, where I started becoming, or started doing strength and conditioning. So I started off as a PTA. I was doing really like working alongside with some physical therapists really getting to learn what they knew. And then they said, Hey, we have some opportunities, for you to kind of branch off what you’re doing with our patients, to our actual clients. And so, I started getting a few professional guys, professional baseball players, some guys that were in the minor leagues, a couple NFL guys. And I started doing that for about six or seven years at the same time, working at IKEA, and then at the same time, working at the bar, so like, I was pretty much doing a bunch of different things. And then but I really, really knew I wanted to get into the strength and conditioning field because I was like, Man, this it’s just a natural fit to me, I get to be around people. It’s ever changing. Every single day, no day is the same. So that’s, really where it kind of where it goes. And like in a nutshell.


Brett Bartholomew  2:10  

Yeah, and one thing that I’ve always appreciated about you is, and I think you’d agree with this to a degree, because you see a lot of interns come in and out, you know, based on the system you guys have there. And so many people get into it, and they’re like, Yo, I just want to work with this athlete, or I want to work with this team and like not once in your background, and we didn’t plan that intro, where you saying, what I grew up and I always wanted to work just in pro, like with pro athletes, like you didn’t try to specialize early, like a lot of coaches do. Now, like you were open to a wide range of influences, especially like IKEA and bartending, like you learn a lot of customers for my first job, I washed dishes, and I was a waiter, and that a lot of both of those taught me a lot about coaching. So talk a little bit about how like early experience with customer service, and maybe you’ve never even thought about this before, how did that even play a role in coach development, so to speak for you and the way you interact with people?


Roy Holmes  3:01  

Yeah, definitely. I mean, cuz, in the position that I’m in now, I’ve gone from a guy that was, out of the fields and working 1213 hours a day, almost to a management position where I kind of split the day. And I just think back to a lot of the opportunities that came across my desk. I mean, at the time, I was just trying to make ends meet, like, I’m just trying to pay the bills. So, I’m really doing the coaching thing, but I’m doing the bartending thing, I’m doing the DJ thing, I’m doing all these different things to just bring money in. But I don’t think people really valued that importance. And it’s a, kind of a topic that I hit with a lot of our interns all time is that when you’re filling out your resume, it’s nice for people to see customer service on there. And so like, I love people that come in from the restaurant industry, because people are hard to work with, multiple different personalities. I mean, from as far as like someone coming on the menu, and it’s like, hey, here’s the menu, don’t make any substitutions, and they’re like, Oh, let me speak to your manager, there has to be substitution. So like, you have to be able to deal with those type of people. And I think, a lot of people don’t understand that, the things that you go through through life prepares you for something else that’s going to that’s later on, that’s going to happen in your life. And I just feel like especially right now in our industry, there’s so many coaches that are ready to just fast forward to the end. They the journey and they skip the learning components and they skip the whole aspect is like oh yeah, you’re just being the, the older guy just telling us what to do when when really it’s they come back you know, a year or two later and they’re like man that you were right the strength and conditioning industry is really really different. 


So I really I really look for and enjoy those different aspects because I think for me, every different situation is what gave me my current Coaching voice and it helped me understand people more and helped me understand different situations Because when a situation arises, it’s like, Oh, I’ve been in the same situation over at this place. I’ve been in this same situation, or I’ve dealt with this type of customer, but it’s just now, an in house customer. So yeah, I really think that it’s something that’s hugely overlooked with a lot of our newer coaches out there.


Brett Bartholomew  5:19  

And you said a few good things here that I made notes of just talking about the theme of difficult personalities and perspective that comes when you’re in kind of customer service related industries of which coaching really is one to right. I find that and one of my favorite quotes was, it’s a quote by Carl Jung, I mentioned it a couple of times on this podcast, and I’ll butcher it here because I’m a little mind blankie this morning, but he basically says, the best way to help people with their own darkness is to know your own, and just having an understanding of your weakness so that you can be an effective communicator, 


are there difficult aspects about your personality that you’ve worked on over the years? Like, for me, I know that there’s been things that I’ve been stubborn on in the past, there’s been things that I felt passionately about. And as you grow and get more in different situations, you kind of look at that past version of yourself. And you’re like, well, there were some things I was really locked in about. And then there are some things that man like, I was way off the mark, what are some difficult parts of your personality that you still deal with openly? And it’s just part of, leadership development in general?


Roy Holmes  6:20  

Yeah, 100% I mean, I think at an earlier age, I was really black and white on things. And like, for examples, if you told me, to be the best athlete, you had to, do 100 Push ups every morning, and run a mile and never drink soda your whole life, and that was going to what was going to get you to the pros, I was gonna do it. So with that being said, it’s, I think, a lot of times, I always thought like, okay, hard work, I should be rewarded hard work, I should be rewarded. And when that didn’t happen, it was like almost a devastating aspect for me, where it was like, okay, well, I didn’t make this all star team or, I didn’t sign a D one scholarship out of college. And it’s kind of like, well, alright, so how do we adjust? And how do we fix this, and I think what I constantly work on now is adding a little bit more gray into my life and is being able try to see every situation for what it’s worth. So a lot of times, it’s you think that like, Okay, here’s the schedule, here’s where people have to fit in, this is how we have to do it, when realistically, it’s like, are you doing things because someone else is telling you, that’s the right way to do it, or you’re doing things, because that’s the best solution for the client at that point in time. So I think, realistically, over time, what I’ve learned is especially with my personality is, learning to adjust. And I think that’s helped me a lot with especially with working with elite athletes, because I used to be like, Okay, I spent all this time on the over the weekend writing up this perfect program. And so when you guys come in here, you guys never go out, you guys never do this. And I used to get mad at the athletes and almost to the point where I wanted to, you know, kick them out the building. And I think now it’s more or less of hearing what they’re saying and saying, like, Hey, man, my life is stressful, I have this and this and this going on. And it’s not just always about sports performance, it’s more about, I look at, me coming to the gym as a release from, my family life in my situation. So, I think a lot of adding the gray into things has taught me how to, realistically adjust to and adapt to, certain situations. So like, you know, if a guy, can’t do a certain movement is, okay, I can regress it or I can progress it depending on what he wants to do and what his personality is. Or I can add a little bit something into my overall program and my overall thought process from a standpoint for so that I can satisfy all the personalities in a group. So I have I might have some guys that want to run more I’m I have some guys who want to live more. So I think that’s really helped me over time. And it’s something that in the beginning, I struggled with a lot because I wanted everything to be perfect. Because I wanted everything to be like okay, well, I was an average guy. So I’m going to try to make you guys all great. And so I’m always going to try to give you the perfect situation, the perfect program, the perfect this. And so I think just having that ability to be adaptable and adjustable to any situation is key.


Brett Bartholomew  9:20  

Yeah. And I like how you put that in terms of the value of the gray area and just touching on one point there is some I want to follow up on that question. I think some of that competitiveness, even with yourself and others, and correct me if I’m wrong here, but that also came from like, you and I worked together at athletes performance, right, different locations. But when we weren’t there, one of the things that made that play special is people were held accountable for running good sessions on the floor, like it was a competitive culture, not between each other but more towards the mission. Right. Like, there were coaches that like if somebody didn’t hold their own on the floor is like, you think that’s world class, and like you would expect other people to do the same for you, to a certain point And so some of that became, not only wanting to run it to get the best out of your athletes, but be the best coach, you could be, and there was a time when that accountability was high. And so you feel really defensive about these things sometimes because you’re trying to get an idea of like, No, I wrote this program, I believe in what we’re doing. Now I’m locking this in. And it’s interesting, because we have a combative yield to a degree, and you have places like, when I was at athlete’s performance, and we were working together, even though different facilities were that was a good thing. But there’s some parts of the industry where people get combative and defensive. I mean, they’ll get in arguments about exercises, methodologies, right. And it’s sometimes it’s beyond passion. It’s like a proving ground. Why do you think our field tends to miss that gray area, even in terms of like you said, there’s an athlete set, some of these guys are gonna have to front squats and we’ll have to safety squat some of the back squat. But yeah, Why do people get so attached and emotional about their programs and everything to where they want to fight over it constantly? 


Roy Holmes  9:20  

Yeah, I think the biggest thing, it’s kind of like the almost like the, I would say, like the almost like the breakup theory,  you feel like you have the greatest girlfriend in the world. And next, she leaves you, and she leaves you, and she goes with this other guy, and you’re like, Well, what does this guy have more than I don’t have or something like that? and I think that kind of, like happens with, programming and coaching. And it’s like, everyone wants to feel like they’re needed by their athletes. And I think a lot of times, it’s not necessarily coaches defending the exercises that they’re doing. They’re just defending their own, personal emotions. And, no coach can lie and say that they don’t check other people’s, profiles and things and see to the number of guys that they’re training the type of people that are training where they’re training, and there’s always that, jealousy and that envy and I think with the height of social media, it has brought that to the forefront. I mean, you hear a lot of like, the, younger kids and I say younger kids, like I’m ancient now, but a lot of it. I’m heading on 40 Now, 


Brett Bartholomew  12:10  

You’re no ancient, 


Roy Holmes  12:11  

no, I know, I’m getting up there. but yeah, it’s, like you hear a lot of the younger kids like fear of missing out. And so I saw a lot of this start to happen, like, especially like when, the height of Facebook is where, a lot of people were posting their YouTube videos of different workouts and different things like that. And it always seemed like, man, their gym is packed, or doing something way better than us are doing this, and this and this, and you kind of get in this vicious cycle of trying to keep up and compete, but you don’t know what you’re going to keep up and compete, because you’re not within their four walls. So I think a lot of coaches realistically, it’s not that they’re defending their program, I think they’re just more or less defending their ego, because they don’t want to feel like someone else is more needed or accepted. And then when realistically, there’s hundreds of 1000s of athletes globally. there’s all these different people that we can train and there’s all these different people that we can impact. And it’s just be thankful that people are actually coming to you in the first place, and that they continue to come to you. And but I think the biggest kudos is when other athletes refer each other to your facility, I think that’s when you’re more you’re actually really doing something right. Where it’s not necessarily you’re receiving athletes, because of the name of the place that you work for something like that, it’s more or less of like, Hey, man, that dude’s doing really good stuff out there. You know, he really knows his stuff, he tells you all about the program, he tells you what to expect, you know, I feel most prepared when I go into the season. So I think that’s really what it’s about. And, I’ve learned a long time ago, refer them to that other place, because I’m like, hey, there’s another good coach that’s down there. And I know, he does some really good thing. So, go ahead and work with him. And then also, a lot of times I look at, how a lot of times like guys, they say like, oh, well why would you share information with other coaches about like the exercises your program? Aren’t you afraid that guys are gonna leave? And like, No, I’m not because at the end of the day, like I’m a one on one and, I think that that’s really what the guys come to the facility for is that they don’t necessarily come from just, your exercise selection. I think they come from, from you actually caring and giving a damn about them.


Brett Bartholomew  14:30  

No, that’s spot on. And there’s a lot there. I mean, one, it’s one of the reasons I wrote about in my book, this kind of need for recognition, validation acknowledgement. It’s one thing that I’ve learned through my doctoral research just on psychology and human nature is there are like you said, these tremendous and sometimes aggressive social comparisons of getting caught up on what other people are doing and a lot of that just comes from scarce resources, right. Like there’s not that many jobs in our field. So you feel like you have to kind of prove yourself but that’s not The way to do it, the way to do it is like you said, find, find why your athletes are really coming to you, you know, because everybody can write decent football, not everybody, but quite a few coaches can write. But there’s still got to be something else that separates you, right? Like, there’s got to be a multiplier there. And communication and understanding what drives people is a huge part of that. And that’s what’s gonna lead me into kind of the next part of what I want to ask you. 


So you’ve been coaching for a long time, with pro athletes, youth athletes, academies, I know that NFL teams and NBA teams will coordinate with you guys out there, and you’ll help them through certain periods of their camp. So the integration is really strong with everything that you’ve been doing. You but you’ve also shifted into a leadership and managerial type of role over the years, how did that impact you? And like, were you ever I know, for me, when I started shifting into coaching, and speaking and consulting and doing these things, there were times a year where I was like, alright, like, I’m never gonna, speak or do other things this time of year, this time of year is completely locked down for coaching. But you know, certain times in August or September when it was quiet, because every major sport was in season, I’d go speak more, I’d run a workshop, and part of me would always get nervous that I was going to lose my coaching ability, or it was going to degrade and those two months. And of course, that didn’t happen, or at least I don’t think it did, my wife had to remind me like, you’re not going to forget how to teach a squat and run a warm up like, loud. But did you ever worry about that, as you’ve kind of evolved into more of a manager?


Roy Holmes  16:26  

No, I think mine was, I’ll try to, not go for so much of a shotgun approach on this one, I’ll try to, like realistically, I think, what management did for me, it almost burned me out. And I want to say what it did is that I looked at it, like, I think we’re most people say, Okay, I’m a manager, now I’m gonna coach less. So that means I’m gonna do less. And now everyone, I’m just going to delegate to everyone else. Whereas I think I kind of like internalized with everything, and I tried to do everything myself. And I think what management has taught me is that you have to figure out the strengths, just as you would with a group of athletes, of all the individuals that are on your team, and try to get that whole team functioning at a high level. And then also with management, and then also, having opportunities to, you know, go overseas, and speak and, and do different things like that. I actually feel like the more I manage, and the more I speak, the better my coaching as guy. That was the Iranian Yep. Yeah. So I think that’s the thing, because I think when you’re out there, and you’re working with, different people, the questions that people ask, are the things that are going to challenge you to really say, Okay, do I actually know about this? And, like, how would I actually implement that, and then that everyone’s situation is different? so you mentioned earlier, like, not everyone can write, you know, the best program, but is it the best program? Because we say it’s the best program? Or is it the best program, because it’s the best program for that person situation. So I think it’s, being able to develop that eye and have an understanding of that is, the key. And I think, throughout management that’s helped so much with the with the integration pieces of being able to communicate with people, and have an understanding of knowing like, this is how, great organizations are functioning. So like, when you talk about the Alabama’s in the New England Patriots, and you talk about places like that, what it all comes down to is like the readiness and preparedness of from an overall mindset that comes from the top down, but then also, from everyone communicating and everyone doing the things that they need to do in order to make to rise the whole team together. So I think that’s the biggest thing that management teaches you, it teaches you how to really prepare your troops and really how to prepare your guys for, for the things that they want to do and saying like this is what’s important right now, rather than, we’re just all running around trying to prove how hard we can work. So I think having that plan, having that understanding, being able to hear the voices of the various team members is I think that has taught me a whole lot. And it’s, I think, again, it’s drastically improved my coaching.


Brett Bartholomew  19:18  

So if I were to ask you to name three specific ways that that managerial work has made you a better coach, would you say, kind of, being able to get outside yourself understand other people more, which in turn makes you more self aware coach allows you to speak to people in a more kind of concise and clear term. It gives you additional perspective, because like you said, you’ve traveled and everything. And when you see the bigger picture, you can focus more clearly. And then what’s the third way? Maybe I missed it?


Roy Holmes  19:45  

Yeah. So I mean, I think more or less, it’s, being able to relate to different people. And then I think it’s also, a management thing has has taught you to simplify things. Because I think a lot of times I’m just like, you go into these situations like, we need this, we need this, we need this piece of equipment, we need to do this. Why are we doing this? Like, why are we not measuring this? And when realistically, it’s like, Hey, what are we trying to accomplish right now? And what do they need later. So I think more of the simplification of things, and just more or less of, of streamlining things. So I think that’s, really just putting in the front of like, what’s actually important, and it’s always referring back to saying, okay, the overall mission is this. So that’s all fall in line and get that done. And I think that spills over to the athletes. And then when you have the athletes return, and they say, man, the reason why I come here is because it is so organized, and it is so like, to the point where I know what to expect from you guys, but that’s more of to me, it’s more of a, alright, like, as an athlete, I always love when it was just like, show up, here’s the paperwork, here’s, what you’re you’re required to do, here’s our expectations of you, boom, all you got to do is just lock in and go. And I think that’s a huge piece of, not only from a management standpoint of your staff member saying, like, here’s your lane,  this is what I want you to do. And then this is where your crossover actually happens that so 


Brett Bartholomew  21:10  

yeah, and I think when you know, your audience, and you kind of know when you’re barking up the wrong tree, because that can be easy to do, right as, a manager and a leader, you come in, and you want to change a bunch of things. But the things you may change, even though you’re passionate about them, and they may be warranted to some degree, right? Like maybe you’re saying, we’re not measuring this, we’re not doing this, it’s best practices and what have you, then that may all be true, but it might not be the right thing you need at that time. Right. And I talked about this once on an earlier episode. But I’d be interested to get your take on it one error that I knew I would have made. And you knew me when I was 26 27. But I was, like, Man, if I went to a team, the first thing I do is that, metaphorically kick down the doors, and I’d be so pumped to bring in a new culture and new energy and infuse it with this. And I have all these ideas. And I didn’t realize it but at the time, but I was like, that would have been an awful approach. Because you wouldn’t have sat back and looked at what is everybody actually doing already really well. What is everybody locking in? And so like, if you, let’s say, today, you were brought in, and there was a, past version of yourself on staff, or even you now whichever way you want to attack this, and you’re trying to get to know your staff, you’re trying to kind of deal with all these personalities like, how would somebody? How would this version of you deal with that? Now, how would you get to know, Roy, how would you get to know your staff? How would you deal with kind of the the wide array of personalities that, are there any tips from that standpoint, that how you


Roy Holmes  22:39  

I think the thing is, is that when we’re younger, we hate hearing this from people, and people always tell you to be patient, and it just drives you nuts. Because, us have, again, you have various family members that you may look at, as more fortunate than you they have the dream job, they have their dream wives and you have your dream house, we look at all these aesthetic things, and it kind of skews our mindset. So I think in the beginning, like what we try to do is we go 100 miles an hour, and we’re trying to prove to everybody how hard we can work and that we know everything. And then we do this and this. And what it starts doing is it starts rubbing the people, the wrong way. And it starts getting to the point where people don’t realistically understand your passion, and they don’t understand. who you really are. So I think more than anything is a slow cook approach. so a lot of times I don’t think most managers understand it’s like, when you come into a new situation, they’re hiring you for a reason, they’re hiring you to try to stabilize the environment. And so if you come in there trying to change too many things, then what you’re going to do is disrupt the environment too much. So I think realistically, what it’s about is getting into a situation and trying to seek to understand a little bit more and say, Okay, where are the issues here? And where do they resonate from? And then Where do they all start? And then once you kind of address those things, then you start coming up with a tangible action plan of saying like, Okay, how are we going to pick these things off, but you just have to be have the understanding of realizing it’s not going to happen in three weeks, it’s not going to happen in six months, it might take a year or two years for you to get the right pieces of the puzzle that are in there. I mean, it’s just the reason why, we see in college sports or NFL sports, it’s a three to five year process, because you got to read, you got to revamp the culture, you got to get the right people in there, you got to have everyone that’s on the same page. And then you have to have everyone understanding and then you have to get your guys that are in the building, that they have an understanding of what you’re trying to do and accomplish. And so I think, understanding that true process and not to be cliche, like, 


David to say all the time, but you have to respect the process. And I think at a younger age, I didn’t respect the process. I felt like look, I’m putting in the work from 5am to 6pm or to 9pm at night, and I’m doing this and, it’s freezing cold, and I’m over here doing this, and you know, I’m getting paid beans, and, I should be rewarded. And I don’t really, and I don’t think I understood at that time is like, you are now understanding how everyone else is. It’s just like, when I go to a restaurant, like, I understand how hard those waiters and waitresses are, doing, because I’ve worked in that industry, and I have an understanding of the back end of it. So like, when people don’t tip and do different things like that, like, those are the things that I’m like, okay, you don’t understand their industry. So I think, for us, like for, as for managers, and us imaginating into our careers, that’s what really matters is, understanding that process and really understanding like, how am I going to implement my scheme, but at the same time, I’m gonna implement my scheme through the eyes of my staff members. So I’m hearing their feedback and realizing, Hey, I’m not going to, we’re not going to get everything, but we’re going to be able to do some of the things and when they start to see that you get a lot more buy in. And I think that’s really what’s key. And that if I could go back and tell the younger me that that’s what I would say,


Brett Bartholomew  26:14  

yeah, no, that’s really clear. And you touched on a term that is often overused. In our field, it’s this idea of passion. And for us, it’s funny, because like, and this is something I talked about in one of my online courses, like being passionate about things feels good, right? Like it boosts our energy, stamina drive, it generally means like, we care deeply about something kind of beyond ourselves, right, like to the point where we can get like, fully immersed. But I think what people don’t understand about passion is it can also crowd out things of equal importance, right? Like, I know, for me, I’ve had this issue, it’s, it’s sometimes placed in motion above logic. And ironically enough, when you look at the literature surrounding burnout, which is a very real, a real thing that affects not only customer service, and educators, but also EMTs, surgeons, and even military to a point, but passion can easily turn into obsession. And that’s something that I remember reading something a few years ago, there’s a guy named Robert valor and I think he was a university like of Quebec, or somewhere in Canada is a professor of psychology. And he just talked about the difference between harmonious passion and obsessive passion. And it’s like individuals with harmonious passion, like engaged in the activity because they want to, whereas those with obsessive passion engaged in it, because they feel like they have to prove themselves in an overly critical way. And I think coaches are, virtue can become vice. And that’s like, when you look at burnout, there’s three points of it. And this will be a future podcast, so I’m not going to go into it too deep. But burnout is comprised essentially of emotional exhaustion, cynicism, and an efficacy, like feeling what you’re doing is no longer making a difference. And I remember one time I put something out on Instagram. And, I was like, you know, do you feel like burnout, burnout is a real term. And I was kind of playing poker a little bit, I knew the deck, I knew that, burnout is a real term, and I had done the research on it for a previous project, related to my doctoral work, and people were, it was funny, a bunch of people, well, I shouldn’t say a bunch, the 10% that voted no, I followed up with them. And I’m, like, just curious why, did you say no? And they’re like, well, if somebody is burnout, they’re not in it for the right reasons. And I was like, interesting, and it wasn’t like my place to Oh, actually, I’m no, know at all. Like what I noticed, and I’d follow it up and be like, how many years have you been in the field? And they’re like, oh, you know, I’m just getting started on my journey. I’m like, Ah, like, yeah, that’s it. Like, you’re gonna realize that like, even though passion can fuel motivation, enhance well being provide meaning in our lives. Like, it can also like just bring a cascade of negative emotions and really lead to you being inflexible. As a person, as a leader of you. 


You talked about that. Earlier, you said you had gotten kind of burnout at one point, which is common, so I don’t want you to feel like nobody, if anybody’s listening to this, and has felt that way, like we’ve all been there. And if you haven’t, you will, at some point, trust me and take on more roles. Like, how did you deal with that? How did you get out of that kind of situation? How did you pull yourself out of it?


Roy Holmes  29:07  

Yeah, you know, and I think, when you start getting to the point of, where you start feeling burned out, I think realistically, it depends on your situation. So, if you’re an individual, my recommendation is just, you have to change your situation a little bit. And some people say, well, like how, like, What do you mean by that? And what I mean is, like, you have to change your routine a little bit. So if you’re doing the same things all the time, like I think for me, what’s helped more than anything, is just getting completely outside of my box. So with, the end of the year coming up? I’m not a big like resolution guy, I’m a more of a like a goal setting guy like, Hey, I’m gonna do this and this and this. And, a couple of like, when I look at it as like for my overall well being goals I look at is that, I’m going to read X amount of books this year, or I’m going to travel to X amount of places this year, and I’m going to do something that’s completely really like, not of my own. And I think when you do that, it really ignites your drive. Because you get to go to a different situation. You get to go be coached by someone else, you get to go listen to a different speaker. So I think that really like helps with your openness. So like, whatever you’re burned out about, I think, you planning ahead of saying like, Okay, I’m going to take a trip here this year, that has nothing to do with strength and conditioning, I’m going to take a trip here that has nothing to do with my business, I’m going to turn my phone off, I’m going to do this. And this is a reason why I want to do that. Because I think when you get back, it makes you hungry enough to say, Wow, okay, I really do miss my job, I really do enjoy it, but you need that, like recharge effect, that I don’t think enough people do. You know, we see this, these cliche things all the time, like, no sleep out there, I grind all the time, if you’re sleeping, I’m eating and, we see all these like little random terms. And I think it’s a disgusting thing that we do in our societies that we feel like that we have to work 24/7 In order to get where we want to get to. And I don’t think that people compartmentalize enough of like, what’s important to them. And I think when you always put what’s important to you, rather than what you’re trying to prove to other people, and then stop letting your ego talk for you. I think that’s the biggest thing is that and I think that’s where you prevent burnout is that when you say, Hey, man, this person is smarter than me. And I can learn a lot from them, rather than okay, what can these people do for me? And if they can’t do anything for me, then, I’m not really interested. 


And so I think it’s it’s a multitude of different things. But I think it starts with self really saying like, Okay, why do I feel burned out? And why do I feel underappreciated? Why do I feel like, I’m working so much, like, Why do I feel all these different ways, and a lot of times, it’s going to resonate, and it’s going to come back to you, and it’s like, hey, sometimes it’s okay to say no to things. Sometimes it’s okay to, and I think that’s the thing is, like, I think earlier, my career, I was like, I hadn’t taken a, real vacation. And almost like, until I was like, 30. And, I really just sat back and I was like, Well, you know, I went to Vegas with the boys and stuff like that. That’s not a real vacation. That’s not a real unplug, deactivation type thing. And I don’t think we do enough of that of just saying, hey, you know, what, I know, I have some athletes in the building, they’re going to be okay, my other coaches are just as good as me, they’re going to be okay, but I need to do something for me right now. And there was a, thing on so Snoop gotta he got his star on the Hollywood. Yeah. And so as a part of his speech, he said, I want to thank me. And I thought that was so powerful. Because when you really look at is like, we don’t thank ourselves enough, when we don’t really like sit back and say, like, man, dude, you really do work hard. And then we’re always looking for this affirmation from someone else. But like, sometimes you really have to step back and be like, Man, I’ve impacted and I’ve influenced a ton of lives. And I’ve done a lot of different things. And and what we sometimes we look at is like, from a monetary standpoint, or we don’t have this or I don’t have this car or that. And then I think that’s what causes the burnout effect is that we’re constantly grinding towards something that we don’t know where we’re grinding towards. 


Brett Bartholomew  33:31  

Yeah. And when you and I don’t, want to erupt. But you touched on it so poignant there like a lot of that comes with the self image of coaches as servants to like, which is not something I really agree with. And I know that this will cause some listeners to be up in arms, but I view coaches as teachers and guides, yeah, like I don’t look at us as like sacrificial martyr servants,  I am plus, I don’t think anything comes anything good. And this is just my opinion, right? Like, I don’t think anything good comes of acting like a servant to your athletes, like they gotta walk the path. Your job is to prepare that journey. But like, you said, part of the three main stages of burnout, per the research is that personal and efficacy that comes from like, yeah, don’t feel like I’m making a difference for my works not mattering. And like that, can actually manifest from humility, taken too far. Like when I say virtue becomes vice, it’s good to be humble. But man, I dealt with this. I remember at 29, I woke up and I told my wife, I’m like, I don’t feel like going to work today. And she goes, What do you mean? And I go, I know, I love coaching. It’s not that, but I don’t want to go to work. And I remember like, despite how grateful I was for my time where, where I was working at the time and all that what I had realized is it was kind of this culture where humility had become really overwhelming and like you almost couldn’t celebrate anything, otherwise, like you weren’t part of like the team and I, maybe I constructed that in my head at the time, but it just seemed to be the theme that it was like, it’s not about you. It’s always about the team, which of course is the case Like, there is to a degree there is an I on team, like, everybody’s got to do their job. Well, we’ve glorified this, like we’re prideful and humility. And that can be dangerous.


 You need to celebrate things I remember even when my book came out, my mom’s like, my mom of all people, and she’s the same way. Like she goes, have you taken the time to celebrate, you thought nobody was going to, you know, buy this or care about it? And I’m like, no, because I know, tomorrow, like this could, all go away? And yeah, go watch, you know, like, within a certain amount of time, if the book does do well, people are gonna come at me and all of a sudden, I’m going to be the guy to go at and, so you just kind of like bury it. it’s almost like you don’t. And I just remember that is no way to go through life, I’m going to recognize when I do, my wife and I are going to celebrate small things, like we created a Book of Awesome, like, she called it that. And she’s like, we’re not just going to celebrate big things like weddings, or kids or whatever, like, there are things every day we need to be grateful for. And you do a really good job of that. I remember, just as I continue to follow you more, last year and watch some of what you put out there like people and you don’t put out like the all positive vibes only this and that, like you actually talk about just being grateful taking a moment on that. And that’s helped you right, like you’d say, that was a cornerstone?


Roy Holmes  36:14  

Yeah, I think where a lot of that has come from is, as, like I joked around earlier is aging, and but also, I think it’s also come from from death. And, I’ve had over time, a few family members that have passed. And it’s like, when you really look at things, and you really look at, like, what’s important to you. I think like one of the old sayings goes, it’s like, the next time we see each other, like, especially when you’re talking about your friends shouldn’t be at, someone else’s funeral. And I don’t think people like we get so wrapped up in, the hustle of trying to, try to be the best version of ourselves and trying to support our families and do different things like that. But sometimes it’s like, okay, when was the last time that you just stopped and, picked up the phone and called some, like, one of your best buds or, when’s the last time that you just stopped everything and said, you know, what, I’m gonna make, this lunch appointment, or I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna text this person back or do something like that anything out of the norm? Yeah, and I don’t think we do enough of that. And I think like, again, society has told us, we have to work so hard that we’ve, forgotten a lot of the foundational principles of just giving a damn, and just actually, being caring and being submissive and not being in  Coach mode or management mode all the time. And, I think, to your point, I just think that, when you say, like, servants, I think people get that term skewed a little bit. Sure. Yeah. I think people think like, oh, man, you’re just supposed to just like, be on on hands and knees for these athletes and do all this stuff like that. It’s like, No, you’re not on your hands and knees, it’s like, you’re providing a service, that’s a part of a servant, you’re providing a service


Brett Bartholomew  38:03  

Which is very different than being a servant to being right. Yes,


Roy Holmes  38:07  

yeah. So I think that’s where people have to understand is like, we’re not telling you to be, put it bluntly, we’re not telling you to be their bitch, but we’re telling you to be you know, 100%, like, Hey, be on your game, be prepared, have a purpose and have passion about what you’re doing, and make sure that they understand that and they know, and you hold them accountable for that. And so, just kind of like tying everything together, with passion and, coaching and different things like that. I think what it really resonates, boils down to is are you comfortable with you? And I think not enough people sit down enough. And we see it because everyone is putting out these motivational quotes. And it’s like, Who are you trying to motivate? Are you trying to motivate other people? Are you trying to motivate yourself? Yeah, because you don’t understand yourself. And I think that’s the thing that, we’re starting to see a lot of is that people don’t know what our industry is about, and they don’t understand again, the burnout effect, they don’t understand the passion of the industry, they don’t understand all that stuff, they just see the tip of the iceberg. They don’t see how it was formed. They don’t see how much work and time that went into it, they don’t see when, you barely could, pay your rent, they don’t see all that stuff. And so when you get to when you reach that point of burning out a lot of times it’s because you’ve been driving yourself so hard, you’ve been coaching every group I’m coaching 11 groups today, it’s a new record, you’re doing all this different stuff, but then at the end of the day, you have to be willing to step back and be a human and actually say, hey, you know what, I’m gonna celebrate this. I don’t care what anybody thinks about this, and I’m gonna beat my own chest right now. I’m gonna toot my own horn and then the next day, we’re gonna move on from it. So I think that’s the biggest thing and we can learn a lot of that from Especially from teams, it’s like, oh, we just upset these guys. And then you know, the guys go out and party or do whatever they do, the night after the game, and everyone’s like, Oh, you guys should be prepared for the next team and this and this and this, Hey, man, you know what, we worked our tails off man, and every now and then we need to stop and say, Hey, we did a good job and but then get it back together to follow on day. So


Brett Bartholomew  40:23  

I wanted to pause for a moment to recognize a sponsor who is really critical to everything we’re trying to do at the art of coaching. Now, many of you that have followed for a long time know that I’ve never came out and endorsed anybody straight forward, or like a product or anything like that. I’ve always tried to keep things very organic. And the only reason this made sense is because this was as organic as it gets. In an earlier episode, I mentioned how I am really proud to partner with Momentus Momentus is a company that is so much more than, most people would look at it and think, oh, is this a supplement company is this and that it really is something that is all about performance, lifestyle, and most importantly, with what we believe in at art of coaching people. And what makes it super unique is the fact that not only are they NSF approved or certified, but also informed choice. They work with a number of NFL, NBA, NHL and NCAA teams, you can just go to And you can see all the individuals that back then because it’s just truly unique. One thing for me is that I have always always been terrified of turning on the News Sunday and seeing an athlete that I work with, or have represented in some capacity, get tested in and deemed for some kind of banned substance. And so I think it’s critically important for any strength and conditioning coach, or anybody that works with athletes in general to make sure that you always know what’s in your product. And Momentus does that they go through the most rigorous standards, they make sure that everything is above board. And most importantly, you can actually get them on the phone, if you guys or your organization has questions. So again, if you follow me, you know that I am not somebody that traditionally has pushed anything in the past is the first company that I have truly 100% sponsored with, I am also not a quote unquote supplement guy momentous six to the grassroots of what we do and what performance nutrition is really about. And we’re proud to have them as a partner. So if you want to learn more, you can go to, you can actually always check the show notes as well, I have a direct link. And if you use code Brett, that’s br e t t 20. At checkout, you’re gonna get $20 off your first order of any Momentus product. So thank you guys very much, make sure to check out Momentus. Now back to the show. 


The point you hit on there that I want to emphasize is like, are you comfortable with you, because tying this all back into management, and, I know, I’m dedicating part of the rest of my career to helping people solve people problems, which is true management, which is understanding psychology, influence, power dynamics, and politics. And that can’t happen without self awareness, right. And when you’re not self aware, when you’re not kind of, you don’t know where you’re at with certain things, you’re, not relatable to anybody, either. I think people have this idea that they want managers to be these people with these morning routines, who everything’s locked in, and everything’s perfect, and it’s ritualized. But at the end of the day, like, you have to be somebody that’s relatable, otherwise, nobody ever is going to feel comfortable being vulnerable around you, so like, you look at this internal representation of how like leadership is typically construed and how other people make sense of the situations they find themselves in well, like, that’s not just about culture, that’s not just about that’s understanding how people interact in groups and social dynamics. And, that,  you can’t even hope to understand that if you don’t know yourself. And I think that’s really what is like I call the lie of leadership, I think that we’ve turned this positivity dogma into this leadership approach, where it’s like, habits and this and positivity and charisma and being organized, you’re going to solve all your problems. And people have forgotten how to get their hands dirty. And they forgotten to do that, because they don’t, embrace the struggle and the insecurity and the things in their lives. And then they wonder why like, all these books that they buy that tell them how to be a good leader aren’t working out for him.


Roy Holmes  44:14  

Yeah. And I think, to your point with that, I think the biggest misconception with management is I think when you’re a manager, you have a title and now you have power, and I don’t think you have power. I think the biggest thing is to continue bridging that gap between, the workers and managers. And I think when that disconnect happens, that’s when when things are bad. I think a lot of times when people remove themselves from the situation so I think, having a coach management blend keeps you sharp, but at the same time, keeps things in perspective. So like when you’re trying to make decisions for the overall facility or for your staff members and things like that. You’re keeping things in perspective of like, Hey, this is what is actually tangible, but then at the same time, The management aspect of like, this is what we have to do, keeps everything in line. And so I think that’s, something that most people forget is that sometimes they, get out of balance where they might get too tied up in the numbers and they don’t under actually understand or hear what is going on on the floor anymore. And it’s like, Hey, why are we not getting this? Why are we not getting this? And it’s like, when’s the last time that you actually address the needs of your staff, or when’s the last time that you actually address the needs of, your coaches, and I think that’s the biggest thing is that, that I try to pride myself on is like, hey, you know, here’s a number that we have to hit. But at the same time, it’s this is what my coaches are saying, and try to blend those two worlds together in order to make, some profit or some revenue or things like that


Brett Bartholomew  45:50  

Yeah and what you touched on just kind of encapsulated what I was gonna say, next, a follower or a colleague or subordinate whatever term you want to use, like their decision to follow a leader, and what they think of that leader, it’s an active process. And part of that is based on the perception of like, does this individual that I’m following, or does this individual who’s leading me do they share values and identity and like you said, if you don’t keep your ear to the street, so to speak, you lose that. And I think, that can be easy to do easier than most people think. And going into those managerial roles, or even learning more about business or going into, like you said, events that have nothing to do with strength and conditioning kind of broadens your awareness of that, because then you’re kind of put in a situation where, just like, your athletes, you’re exposed to things where it’s like, they don’t just come and think about training, like, there’s other things going on in their life. And you have to acknowledge that, when we Oh, go ahead?


Roy Holmes  46:44  

No, I was, I was also gonna say, but you know, that’s a, sign of maturity and growth as well. And it’s, I think, it’s a crossroads that most people come to is that, what was right last year might not necessarily be right this year. And, how do we grow? And how do we, separate ourselves from that. And I think like, not only from a management standpoint, but not only but in, life as well,  there’s certain activities or certain things that I used to do, that I should no longer do in order to continue to grow. And I think that’s another huge part of being able to see the horizon and project out is saying, like, Alright, how do we stay on, the edge of everything, and how do we stay sharp, and as being able to have some foresight of saying, This is what’s happening currently, but what’s going to be happening, in the next two to three years, what’s going to be the next thing, so, I think that’s another perspective, too. And I think that’s what crucial to really see or to hear, you know, what people are talking about, like, from a, standpoint of like, people’s different situations of helping your own personal situation grow.


Brett Bartholomew  47:56  

No doubt, and I hope everybody listening to this understands that. The only reason Roy and I are talking about this as we have both been pains in the ass before,  and there were times where, listen, even working with Roy, I’m sure I frustrated the heck out of him, and, so You’re not listening to two people talk about things like, oh, we have this figured out, listen to our take on leadership. No we’ve been pains in the ass, and we’ve kind of had to look and check ourselves at times. And I think it’s something that like, for those of you listening right now is worth doing. we always try to have action points during this podcast, so that you’re not just kind of like, mindlessly listening. Not that you wouldn’t be but we want you to put it into use is like, go around to people. And hopefully there’s some find people that disagree with you the most and say, Hey, like, what ways do I kind of rub you the wrong way? Or like how do I come across, in this instance, and that like find people that will give you brutally honest, maybe even semi hurtful feedback, and I don’t mean like, hurtful, like, I just mean somebody that’s not going to cut, it to you the way you want to hear it or touch it with kids gloves, you need to hear the criticism of yourself good, bad or indifferent whether you agree with it, and you need to have the wherewithal and the fix and. Just take it, internalize it, and then go back and evaluate, why you may be perceived that way how you’re communicating, like, brief story, Roy, if your main Oh, go ahead.


Roy Holmes  49:14  

Yeah, no, um, I was just going to touch on I was like, it’s one of the things it’s like, if you want to grow, you got to be willing to get be hurt. And that’s the thing and it’s just like, if you want to succeed, you got to fail. And so I think, like you said, talking to people that you know, you’re not going to get the answers that you want to hear like, you can’t just always go around the people and say, Yeah, you know, I’m the best because everyone around you just idolize you. You have to have some people around you that challenge you and say, I don’t necessarily think what you’re doing right now is the smartest thing. So and I think that checks you and I think it puts things in perspective and it really helps you out a lot with that.


Brett Bartholomew  49:56  

Yeah, yeah. And I think like my just a quick story on my end from that I remember working with somebody that, you know, they deem me as aggressive, and I go, why do you think I’m aggressive? And they’re like, Well, when you’re on the floor, you’re always bumping music. And like, the guys are whooping and hollering or whatever. And I’m like, yo, like, I almost died at 15. Like, my family, like, my dad’s dad died early, I talked about this,  anybody that’s listened to my podcasts knows that, I have family that history of heart disease and cancer and like, not everybody sees a long lifespan. And, having witnessed that early, I was just like, yeah, like, you need to understand strengthing conditioning saved my life, like learning how to train my body, right? And get out of this situation where I was in the hospital that I talked about in my book, like, Yeah, I’m gonna be passionate, because when I’m on the floor, working with people who their life depends on this stuff, too. Yeah, we’re gonna go in, we’re not going to be ostentatious about it, we’re not going to run around and try to create some show. But if there’s a moment where a guy’s under some load, and everybody’s getting hyped like you have to understand that it’s because I don’t look at strengthing auditioning just as a way to get stronger. Like, it’s transformative. And I remember, there’s a longer conversation than that, but just telling that individual about when I was hospitalized, and how strength and conditioning kind of brought me out of that hole and all this stuff. Like, immediately, she was like, Oh, I get it now. And I was like, yeah, like, and it only took, you know, probably 15 minutes to have that discussion, you need to pull her to the side. And, because she had kind of been coming at me for weeks and weeks. And I was like, what’s not like, we talked about this. And to her, it just looked like I was, trying look looking for attention, like, oh, Brett’s on the floor now. And it’s like, no, like, these guys are hyped. And like five of themhad to had some really crappy things happened to him recently, I’m trying to create a positive atmosphere for them. And they want to be excited, like they’ve told me they want me to bring that energy. And so that’s why I think we also have to be critical about like, when we see other coaches do things or any practitioner for that matter, go ask them don’t assume that they’re behaving a certain way, because they want attention or because they want to be perceived as this, like, go ask them, there’s probably a reason for it. Now, if there’s not, and they look at you in the eye, and they’re like, because this is what I think it takes to get ahead, then have a mentor discussion with that person, but don’t jump to conclusions.


Roy Holmes  49:56  

But I think that’s also a maturity aspect too, as well, from your part. Not only saying like, hey, let’s have this conversation. But I think the people that really want to elevate themselves into, a higher status is being able to resonate your passion with other people. So it’s kind of like the superhero approach. I mean, you have your identity, but then you have your superhero self, which is like, the coach of you being on the floor. And sometimes if you only let people see that aspect of you, they don’t really appreciate your path, they don’t really appreciate, what really got you there. And I think that’s where, what, reality TV and, social media has shown us is that’s what people are really interested in, that people are interested in the path and people aren’t just interested in, the end goal. So, I think for people to really be able to see the, separate the two of being able to say, okay, that’s him, putting on the show, but this is really what he’s about. And that’s why his show is so impactful.


Brett Bartholomew  53:06  

Yeah, no, I agree. And so listen, like take in on that and then moving into some of the themes as we start to kind of wrap up, because we could definitely we’ll probably have to do a part two of this. we’ve talked about some myths as it pertains to leadership management, all that and work around what do you think are some other myths about Coach development? Like where are we not asking enough questions? Where are we not looking under enough rocks? What are you seeing when you see how many interns you see a year first answer that like around how many interns come in and out of the system there?


Roy Holmes  53:36  

I’m just gonna probably say on average, I would say anywhere from 20 to 30. Interns 


Brett Bartholomew  53:42  

perfect. Yeah. And I remember like, during my time there like it was always similar kind of theme and I’d be interested to see if it’s changed a bit is these interns come in and they’re usually  a good percentage of them are very well read sometimes not always on the literature but sometimes usually literature blogs this that and there’s this kind of idea that coaching is easy, right? Like now because they understand how to teach a deadlift or a clean or they understand Perla pins chart or, different methods of periodization that it’s easy. And then when they were putting the spotlight, it was like a deer in headlights, right? Like they don’t know, should I start with 10 minutes of breathing. What is the latest article talking about with soft tissue? But wait a minute, how should we be doing HRV? Is it still like that? Like, are you still seeing like a common theme come in with Coach development and might be lacking?


Roy Holmes  54:31  

Honestly, to not put it as simplistic as they possibly can? It’s like the interns that normally thrive the best are the interns that normally have the best family upbringing. And what I mean by that is that lately we’ve gotten a wave of interns that are extremely, extremely booksmart but they’ve never trained anybody before. So I think again, a lot of them have seen the sexy of They’ve seen the sexy of like what the industry offers, and they want to try it. Whereas I think in the past, we get a lot of interns, it was like, I know what I want to do. I’ve been grinding for a long period of time. This is the last step that gets me closer to my ultimate goal. And I think what happens is we’re talking about earlier with passion is I think a lot of people don’t know where their actual drive and their passion is, they don’t know. They don’t understand. They think it’s about like, Okay, I do this exercise, I film it, I put it on Instagram, I do some motivational quote, and boom, I’m the best coach out there. I don’t think what they get is they understand is that when you go out there, coaching is all about passion. And when I mean about passion, it’s meaning that you care, and you give a shit enough about the athletes that are on the floor to make them better. And I think that’s what most people are lacking is that, yeah, they can recite all the articles, they tell me about you, they tell me about, they’ll tell me about you know, Kelly, Star lead, they’re telling me about all these different names drops out there. But I’m like, Okay, why does any of that stuff matter to this current athlete that’s standing here in front of you? And I think that’s where the biggest gap is happening at. And I think that’s where the biggest disconnect is happening is that people there’s not enough of the applied like, oh, okay, like, that didn’t necessarily work. Because I wasn’t polished enough to be able to explain it. To this two time, three time pro bowler, who was like, I don’t care about this exercise, how is this going to help me? Because I’m already at the peak of my career. So I think that’s the biggest thing is that like, a lot of the younger coaches are getting lost in the minutia that’s out there of being able to filter out what’s important and what’s not, and what’s trendy. And, what is straying too far away from, just a traditional principles of being able, can you do certain exercises Well, and what helps those exercises being executed at a high level. And so, I would love it to see, more kids come in, you know, because, they come in, and they have all the bookmarks, and they’re like, Hey, I’m going to take my CSCs I’m gonna do this, I’m gonna do this. And they’re super, super charged up to get more initials after their name. And I’m like, how many hours have you coached? And they’re like, I just want to work with elite athletes. I was like, the most elite athletes, their career is only about two to five years, and then you’re never gonna see him. Buy can you teach that little kid over there? That’s 12 years old, how to do a single leg RDL.


Brett Bartholomew  57:33  

So where can we improve there? How do we get that? I mean, aside from exposing them to it. I know like, when we worked at athlete’s performance together, like, that was, the reality is like, Hey, guys, like you gotta run this group. And you’re I remember one time I an intern, I was like, Hey, do you want to run the college prep group today? And he was because he had it. He had asked, he was like, can I get more involved? Like, and he had done a good job recently. And he had tend to earn that, right. So I’m like, yeah, man, like, why don’t you run this part of it? Why don’t you run that part of it? And I remember he said, Well, I’ve already ran a warm up for the high school kids. And I was like, Wait, so what do you mean? And he’s like, Well, I’ve already done that. And I said, but like, what do you think this job is? Like, you know, how many warm ups I’ve ran for high school kids athletes of all age, like, do I just like, it just confused me, right? Like, it’s kind of like telling a heart surgeon like, Hey, can you prep? Can you get all these things together to prep for surgeon then be like, Nah, I’ve done that. I’m good. Like, yeah, well, that’s your job, man. Like, and so I go, Well, what is it you want to do? And they’re like, Well, I was hoping that I could run the strength session for the NFL group or this group. And I’m like, man, like, it was just very odd. And like, so it’s this idea of like, No, I’ve done that. Now. I’ve checked a box. Now I’m good to go for the next thing. And it’s like, that’s not how you develop mastery. Like you watch Jiro Dreams of Sushi. That 80 year old sushi chef did not say I’ve already learned how to make the rice, somebody else will now do it permanently. Like That dude is still hands on. So just watch how we get around?


Roy Holmes  58:56  

No, I think what it is, that it’s the, it’s being able to change the perspective and the association with the task. They associate the task as like so minut like, Okay, well, that’s, you’re just doing the warm up. And so yeah, that’s not really the meat and potatoes, I want to do the meat potatoes. Because if I can do the meat and potatoes, and now I can compare myself to you and say, I’m going to do this and this and this. So I think where we have to start out is just really, really, keeping the kids humble. And I think what I try to do more than anything is I tell them, first two weeks don’t even talk to athletes don’t even ask questions, just write down all of your questions and we’ll answer them in a closed setting, not on the floor. Here’s the things that I want you to do. I just want you to see how the flow of the facility is going to go. Here’s how I want to see how the coaches are currently interacting with the athletes. I want you to get good at the foundational tools first loading bars, breaking down bars, doing different dismissiveness, setting up the sessions, having an understanding of the sessions and take as much detail notes as you possibly can. Now, to me, that is the buy in for intern that is a buy in for any new coach into the industry. If you’re willing to do that two weeks of just complete sacrifice of saying, I’m going to be a diligent note taker, I’m going to ask questions, and I’m going to do all these things, that’s typically going to be a coach that is going to be very, very dynamic at some other point in time. But the coaches that don’t take notes, the coaches that come into it, from a standpoint of saying, hey,  oh, yeah, I’ve heard that already. Brett Bartholomew, I read that on his blog, and, I’m good, I understand that now. The ones that think they understand everything without doing it are the ones that are normally going to suffer the most. 


Brett Bartholomew  1:00:42  

So yeah, believe me, I get that too, like guys will and not to cut you off, but like guys will be. They’ll reach out and be like, cool, man. Like, have you read the book? Because they’ll ask a question. And I’m trying to get an idea of where they’re at with their foundation of understanding. They’re like, Yeah, I love the archetypes. I’m like, well, awesome. But that’s 1/5 of the book, you know. And what I realized is like, just like is typical of most trained coaches, they wanted to go to kind of something that was formulaic, even though the book says, archetypes are not static, they’re an incomplete model. They’re going to change contextually. And they’re going to change from the environment that they’re in. Like, they’re not the answer. They’re one part of the discussion. And the person like they didn’t read any other part of that book. They didn’t read, they just went to the quick thing, because they want it to be a formula like, like sets and reps or a formula.


Roy Holmes  1:01:24  

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, and I think like the kids that really try to dissect and extract because that first week of orientation, for me is very impactful. Because what I try to do with our, with a lot of our coaches is realistically say, Okay, I’m going to make you feel like the athletes. So we have them go through the, the full evaluation process and everything else like that, we haven’t go through the setup and breakdown, we haven’t gone through various aspects of, the warmup and various aspects of the lift. And then we say, Okay, now when you get on the floor, now you have an understanding of what the athletes are feeling. So not only being diligent, diligent note taker, but then also being a person that’s willing to experiment on yourself. So for me, the biggest changes is, not only from a university standpoint, is that when kids are in school, they need to, they need to volunteer more at the rec centers, or they need to go get jobs at the rec centers and do different things like that and be personal trainers. I think that’s a huge thing. I think kids need to work in restaurants more, and have customer service experience, and work in very busy and chaotic environments. And then also, I think kids need to read more. So I think if you do those things, where you’re working with individual personalities, you’re working with people in a busy, chaotic environment where, things have to happen in at a high rate of speed. And then now you’re backing that all up with the knowledge that you’re gaining from reading, that’s going to make you a much more polished coach later on in your life. So I would look at it as that more of those aspects is like being able to deal with individual personalities being able to look at and say, Alright, how to respond in stressful situations? And then last, what is my actual knowledge base? And then can I actually apply my knowledge base? To myself or to others?


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:17  

Yeah, no, I think that’s huge man. And, I want to close it off like this, because inevitably there are people that want to hear kind of the exercise or the programming question and kind of all these things, right. So like, here’s how we’re going to attack this for some guests. I talked about, hey, if you had this situation and two to three exercises, what’s a cornerstone of your program and why right, like kind of like a defend your program with you, I want to take a different approach. People always love to get the Hey, Coach, if you can only do one exercise question right? Like, which, just for anybody listening, it’s never about one exercise. But I get what they’re trying to say. They’re usually just like, they want some goal. They want to know what your thoughts are on something and they want to make sure that they’re not missing anything. I’d like to actually know something different if there was one exercise out there that you believe is actually the most overhyped. What is it and why and this would be the final question. But I’d love to and I know it’s dicey because it’s so contextual. So I’m gonna help Roy out by this guy’s if you’re listening, no matter what he says, understand that his answer is going to be it depends. Like for example, I used to think that there was a certain exercise that was overhyped, and then I worked with an amputee and that might be the cornerstone of what they do, right based on limitations. So this is contextual, I’m just trying to add more come from it like what are people obsessing about that like is like alright guys kind of move on kind of thing?


Roy Holmes  1:04:39  

Yeah, I think we, live in such a such trends and we get away from the basics. And I think what a lot of like the trends that are going on right now. We forget to ask, like, how does this actually help? All different aspects of life like how does this out actually help, people get healthier? And how does this actually combat like all the diseases and different things like that, we’re seeing out there from people not exercising and not moving? And so, when I look at is like, what are people doing too much of? I think it falls into two categories for me. I think, to pick on one general aspect is, there’s a huge population of people out there with the Animal Flow thing. Ya know, I understand it, I see the purpose of it, I think it’s a hard sale. And I think the people that are doing those types of things are going to be jumping on the next trend soon, or they’re going to be back to where they should have been with real basics. And then also, I think, breathing. Some of the breathing exercises are, overlooked, because if your athletes aren’t doing it, like if you have an athlete that only embraces and understands breathing, when he is hex bar deadlift, and 600 pounds, but then he hurts his back, when he picks up his daughter in the pool. I think that’s something that can be too far overlooked is are we actually changing physical behavior. So I think, more than anything, it’s to continue moving for a long period of time. So for me, it’s just three basic exercises I look at is that gets the push up. It’s just the standard bodyweight squat and a pull up. And those would be to me that three exercises that you would be able to do for the rest of your life, because squatting is basically moving. You have to push yourself or whether you’re getting up off the ground, and then you need to be able to have if you can pull your own bodyweight. I think that is great. So to me, I just think like, for it depends on your situation. But if I’m saying like something that is being overhyped right now, I think people fall in love too much with tools and different things like that. And I think it’s just it’s a lot more simplistic than they really try to make it.


Brett Bartholomew  1:07:11  

I mean, it’s a great answer, man, thorough and no punches pulled. I appreciate it. Well, Roy, how can people get a hold of you? What’s the best way to get in contact with you and rest assured, we’ll put it all in the show notes, guys. So don’t worry about getting a pen and paper, if you’re driving, listen to this, like, keep your hands on the wheel, we’ll put it in there. But if if anybody is by their desk, or what have you, and they want to get ahold of you or reach out right now, what’s the best way to do that? 


Roy Holmes  1:07:32  

yeah, I think the best way for me, you know, especially as I guess most people have social media accounts now is direct message through my Instagram. My Instagram is coach_holmes, I get a lot of questions in there. I try to get back to people as soon as they possibly can. They always ask, various questions. And again, the questions that people ask or  the tax or whatever they have, those are the things that are only going to make me better as a coach, and it’s going to make me better to teach other people that what other people are wondering about out there in the industry.


Brett Bartholomew  1:08:04  

That’s huge, man. All right. Well, thanks again for your time. And if it guys, if you want to learn more kind of about the burnout and the passion side of things, definitely recommend going to There’s an online course coming real soon. That’s if it’s not already out, by the time this is released, that talks about some of this stuff and can help some is geared towards trying to help people identify and help deal with some of the things that they may encounter in that realm and, and a variety of other topics that this podcast is trying to cover that that are traditionally outside the norm. So whether it’s management, dealing with burnout, communication, the science behind the art of coaching, those things your best resource and definitely get in touch with Coach Holmes. he’s one of the few guys that will just tell it like it is, is unapologetic yet in a respectful way. And is somebody that I think more people need to learn more about Roy again, man, I appreciate your time. Thank you very much. 


Roy Holmes  1:08:55  

Yeah. Thank you.

  • Tim

    Amazing content on this one good work guys, a lot of gems on this one!

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