It’s easy to let circumstances and self-doubt get in the way of our desires. But it’s not just our desires at risk- self doubt could be holding us back from creating change, advancing in our career or worse, getting in the way of our relationships.
Today’s guest Amira Mansour helps us understand that to create change you don’t have to get rid of the negative voice inside your head but rather recognize and reframe our thinking before it gets louder.
Amira is a communication coach and conflict expert based in the UK who obtained her law degree and spent the first 12 years of her professional life in the corporate world before making the jump to starting her own coaching business.
Like many coaches, Amira found her calling because of the adversities she’s had to overcome.
In this episode we discuss:
- How going out on your own starts with a conversation with yourself
- Creating self-value from negative self-talk
- Impostor syndrome: How you can be the expert but still have something to work on
- And much more…
Connect with Amira:
- Via Instagram: @the_communicationexpert
Support for today’s episode comes from Dynamic Fitness & Strength. Dynamic offers the highest quality strength and conditioning equipment designed just for you, your space and your budget. Whether you’re looking to outfit your college, high school or professional gym or even just your garage, check out our friends at Dynamic and tell them Team AoC sent you!
Also, quick shout-out to another podcast partner, LMNT. LMNT is our go-to hydration product. With no sugar and no additives, LMNT is how I manage to maintain my voice when speaking for 16 hours and traveling every other weekend of the year. Right now, they are offering you a free 8-flavor sample pack (just pay $5 shipping) if you go to drinkLMNT.com/aoc!
Want to learn how to build, communicate or scale your brand? Whether you are thinking about making the leap and starting your own business, have been building for years and need help taking the next step or just want to clarify what it is you do and why it is people come to you, check out our live Brand Builder workshop!
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TRANSCRIPTION
Brett Bartholomew 0:06
Welcome to the Art of coaching podcast, a show aimed at getting to the core of what it takes to change attitudes, behaviors and outcomes in the weight room, boardroom classroom, and everywhere in between. I’m your host, Brett Bartholomew, I’m a performance coach, keynote speaker, and the author of the book conscious coaching. But most importantly, I’m a lifelong student interested in all aspects of human behavior, and communication. I want to thank you for joining me. And now let’s dive into today’s episode.
Hey, everyone, Brett here, glad to be sitting down with you again, and also to finally have my voice back. If you heard our last episode, you know exactly what I’m talking about. As we move forward in 2022, I want you to think about something for a moment, how many years have gone by where every time the year ended, there was something that you didn’t finish that you had started, and that you were originally really passionate about. Maybe it was the first draft of your book, podcast, a business plan, or even just the creation of a presentation you always wanted to give. Additionally, how many years have gone by where in the name of your love of learning, you took part in a wide variety of professional development opportunities, you gain tons of new insight and information. But you still ultimately failed to apply it afterwards, because I got busy. And how many times have you found yourself in this cycle of good intentions, and with a dedication to learning, but ultimately, you continue to get overwhelmed by just not knowing where or how to start?
Now, what if I told you that that wasn’t really your fault. The fact is, the education industry, regardless of profession, is largely set up to take advantage of people like you. And even me in that respect. Those who have an insatiable appetite for getting better craving new information, wanting additional perspectives, wanting to be a more Wow, well rounded person. Well, oftentimes the creators of these kinds of conferences and clinics, they know that information is the security blanket of the achiever. So what they do is they weigh you down with so much you can barely move, I can think of countless times where I went, I thought I was getting a tremendous value add. And it was information after information was just lobbed at you nonstop, you’re trying to take notes. And then by the time you synthesize those notes, the course is over. And then you’re back on a plane and it’s all just overwhelming. So initially, you seem like you have value. But really, it’s this vortex that leads to more insecurity and uncertainty.
Well, the good news is, that pattern can stop. But it does take you recognizing the problem and committing to getting around the right outputs, and the right people. And this is exactly why we are bringing a group of phenomenal coaches together in Atlanta for a hands on altra interactive, applicable summit this March. Now we do limit these get togethers we’d like to keep the numbers small. We’re not big fans of ultra clinics and ultra conferences where everybody just goes through presentation after presentation and falls into that spiral that we just talked about. So there’s not a lot of spots. But I would love to see you there and have the opportunity to tell you more. So if you are interested in spending some time together, and sharing strategies with me and other coaches, please go to artofcoaching.com/contact. That’s art of coaching.com/contact. You’ll answer a few questions and then you will hear from either me, my colleague Ali Kirschner, or another member of our team with more information. Again, that is artofcoaching.com/contact.
Also, this episode is brought to you by our friends at LMNT. One behavior I constantly have to strive to improve is my hydration. And just like anybody, I can get sick of the taste of plain water. And I also tend to get dehydrated more in the winter LMNT provides the perfect solution for both of those problems. And they don’t lace their product with a bunch of additives and other nonsense. It’s simple, it’s effective, and it’s a favorite of mine. claim your free sample pack today. You just pay $5 for shipping in the US by going to drink element that’s lm n t.com/aoc. For art of coaching that’s drinklmnt.com/aoc. Big thanks to our patrons as well. It’s been a while since I’ve recognized you. If you would like to drop a nickel in the hat, so to speak and support I support the show. Go to art of coaching.com/patron We greatly appreciate the gesture and support and for those of you who have reached out. You can always find my book conscious coaching the art and science of building buy in at Amazon. We also do autographed copies. There’s so much at artofcoaching.com guys from free resources to our live events. Please just check it out work folks just like you and we spend a lot of time trying to keep this stuff updated. because we want you to be a part of it. So we really appreciate that.
Today’s guest is Amira Mansour now Amira runs her coaching business, working with companies and individuals on a one to one and group basis to help them communicate more effectively with themselves, in their relationships, and generally with the world to get the best out of their life. And why I liked her so much as she is not part of the woowoo crowd. She’s not part of these people that tell you, Oh, you know, you can do this. And you can do that she is the person that’s going to tell you to not run from the tough stuff, to really dive into it to get tactical to be applied. She has a background in the legal space. She’s got a great story about that. She worked in the corporate world for 12 years as a learning and development manager. In addition to coaching young people from a wide variety of diverse backgrounds, who have had very, very, very hard introductions to life. I think you’re gonna love this episode, we’ve jam packed with Applied Information, and even a little bit of role playing and a fun hot take at the end. So without further ado, my friend Amira.
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode. I’m sitting down today with Amira Mansour hopefully I pronounced that correctly. I know that these it sounds like you have some tongue twisters every now and then. But welcome to the show. Amira,
Amira Mansour 6:25
it is an absolute pleasure to be here. And I feel that there’s been a long time coming in. So I’m very grateful to be in the hot seat today.
Brett Bartholomew 6:33
Well, listen, I think you will boost our ratings just from the dulcet tones of your voice and your accent. And it’s going to be such a pleasure for our audience to hear you and the elegance of your voice as opposed to my raspy nonsensical chatter that they hear every day. So I appreciate you taking the time.
You know, one thing that that I believe holds true, just to throw you right into the fire, since you use the term Hot Seat, is that you can’t really get to know somebody until you know what they’ve gone through, or at least where they come from, and what they want. Now, I certainly don’t expect you to lay it all out for our audience right off the bat. But I would very much love it. If you could tell us a little bit more about you, and what put you on the path that you’re currently on.
Amira Mansour 7:19
Oh my god, of course. I think if I had to sum it up, in one word, I’d say like it was by accident. But I’m a big believer of like the universe and having your path and things align. So I think that if you asked me, like 10 years ago, I was ever going to work for myself, is this what I was going to be doing? I would have laughed so loud, like so loud. And it’s so easy for me to sit here now. And to look back and to say, oh, that happens because that then had a catapult effect. And that helps me have that opportunity. And I think I said this to somebody the other day actually, as a kid, I was determined to always work for myself. And I was like, why would anybody want to be tied down? This isn’t discrediting people who are employed, by the way. But for me, as such a young kid, it was a thing that I was adamant I was never going to do. And I spent 12 years in the corporate world, and I loved it, like I never ever gonna, like, put it down or dismiss it. Like it gave me such a solid foundation for what I do now. I learned so much, and I mixed with such a variety of people. But I definitely think that doing that enabled me to tune in to realize that people was my skill because I dismissed it. I used to say, I’m not even good at it. Like it’s just the way God made me. And I said that over and over for like years before I really acknowledged oh my god, actually, it’s my zone of genius. This is what I’m good at
Brett Bartholomew 8:55
the people skills side of things. That’s what you’re referencing.
Amira Mansour 8:58
Yeah, people skills and being able to tap into, like somebody’s pain point. And it’s something that I found really difficult to be able to articulate ironic, or be able to explain, like, how I do it, or why I can do it. So I think because it was such an intuitive part of me. I just dismissed it. I was like, Yeah, I’m good with people like, yeah, I can relate to people. And that’s the narrative. I told myself for a long time.
Brett Bartholomew 9:24
I appreciate that. Now, I do need you given that to help me make sense of something, however, right in the I paid a lot of private investigators to check you out. And so there are some threads here. So I know you said that you were you spent 12 years in the corporate world I want I want to get into that. I also know from our investigators that you had a background like you went to school for law, but then I also know from following your work, that there is an experience that you had in a previous relationship that made you start kind of investigating communication and the way you communicate and address conflict the way that you do so given But you told me there, but all these other tasty tidbits helped me kind of better make sense of how all these things had a little Interplay now, like, how did you go from law into this? What kind of corporate work did you do? And then what was it about this relationship, if you feel comfortable sharing that made you really kind of peel back more layers of yourself, as well, because I think a lot of our listeners can relate like they’re in jobs, or professions or things right now, where, you know, there’s other things that they know they’re good at, but it’s not just easy for them to jump. Right. And so they’re trying to figure out how do they own their origin? How do they make sense of this whole journey? And, how do they coalesce at so I think they’ll, find inspiration from you.
Amira Mansour 10:41
That’s literally such a beautiful question to get asked. So I went to uni, and I went to uni to study law. And I remember, up until like the age of 16, I was adamant I was going to be a TV presenter, that is always what I was going to do. Like, I couldn’t tell you why it’s just something that brought me a lot of joy. It’s not something I’d ever actually done. But that was that was my thing. That’s what I was going to do. And then I got to 16. I think this really highlights like the things you get told and things you think you should do. And I’ve worked really hard at school. So I was usually like top of the class. And people would say to me, why do you want to be a TV presenter, you’re just gonna throw away like your education. So I picked law at 16. And the reason for picking it was two huge things. One was because I wanted to help people. And that was the way at the time that I saw I would be able to help or support them. What will like, conspire later on is that I’m very big on like family and relationships and understanding that dynamic. And that’s where the communication comes into play. But I don’t, I know for sure, I didn’t know that at the time. So I did that. And the other thing as well, which is crazy, because I think this is definitely from like a young child and my environment. And how I grew up was I wanted to pick a career that I would always be able to, like hold my family down with and that I would be able to support without needing or wanting anybody else. So it was kind of like a survival mechanism. But it was also hugely, I wanted to advocate for kids going through like the social care system. So that was my big reason for doing it.
So I went to law, I went to uni, I did law, I think you need like, you guys is college in the States for three years. And then actually went to law school. And I had a full time job at the time. So I took like an alternative route. And I went to law school in the evenings. And I’d fallen into that a finance company and like math and numbers was not my thing. Like I could do it. Yeah, I was competent, but just give me like English and words and law. I loved it. I loved the research. Anyway, I really loved unique to this day, I say it’s like the best time of my life, I learned so much I had awesome friendships. And it was really a space where I was able to be free and grow. Anyway, fast forward, walks into the corporate world. And this was kind of like my catapult into it, and I never left. So I managed both law school and the corporate world for a while. And I started at this really cool young tech, like fin tech company. And I’d got put into I think my first role was like, I used to scan documents. That’s what I did like seven hours, and then I’d run out of there to go to law school in the evening. That is what I did. Yeah, scan documents, I don’t think I’ve told him that. So after I did that, I really liked the company, and I liked the people. So it’s like my common thing that constantly comes up. And once I’d finished and qualified and wanting to stay at the company, because I was learning and I’d progressed like a couple of roles by that time. And they were adamant that they didn’t want to give me a full time position because I was gonna go and qualify, why did they want to put me on their payroll. And I think at this time, I had this internal conflict around cost of like adding my bar experienced, which was me and I’d qualify as a barrister rather than a solicitor. And that’s what I wanted to do. I didn’t want to do the solicitor side a bit and it was already in 30k of debt.
Brett Bartholomew 14:15
What does that sorry for my ignorance? What does that side of it? Like? Why didn’t you want to do that side of it?
Amira Mansour 14:20
No, such a good question. So solicitor for me, it was very much like your office based paperwork. And being a barrister meant you got to stand up in court and actually speak irony. An advocate. Right. And, and for me, I remember this day and I used to say this to myself all the time. It was being able to give people voice that didn’t have it. that was that was like my goal. That was my goal.
Brett Bartholomew 14:43
Yeah, well, that helps clarify things tremendously, you know, and, and especially in the context of relationships, because there’s all kinds of relationships in our life where we feel like we struggled to have that voice. And I think the obvious one is romantic relationships, and we’ll get there in a minute. But I think Another thing our listeners for sure can relate to is you talk to the beginning about going out on your own. Well, another area that can be tough to find your voice is when you tell people in your life, your family, whatever, that you’re going to do that right now, quick question, I didn’t keep you this hard. Are you? Are you married? Now? Are you anything that’s like, I also don’t want to ask out your partner or embarrass anybody? Are you single? Are you taken? Just leave it there?
Amira Mansour 15:26
I’m taken.
Brett Bartholomew 15:27
Okay, so you’re taking. So like, at some point, let’s imagine that relationship continues to intensify. And you have to say, Hey, I’m going a new direction. And we get reached out by coaches all the time that are like, hey, I really want to go do x, because in why I’m not valued. I feel like you know, they just replace me and whatever. But I have a family and I can’t just jump, I can’t do these things. Now everybody’s situation is different. It’s all relative, right? Somebody might not be married or in a relationship, but their parents might have helped fund some aspect of their background. And now if they jump their parents can be like, Well, what’s that for?
My question is, how do you find the confidence or your voice? To tell people yo, I’m going out on my own? I’m gonna go try this thing. You’ve done that. Right? You You didn’t end up in, you’re not a lawyer right now. You’re, out of corporate America, you had to tell somebody in your life, this is what I’m doing. Was that hard? And how did you broach that conversation? If so?
Amira Mansour 16:27
Oh, my Yeah, you have no idea what I’m about to say. So it’s just amazing that you asked this question. So it was I’m thinking about how I want to explain it, that’s fine. It wasn’t a conversation, right? It was something that I think constantly stirred in me. And I think when it comes to when you say like, how did I have the confidence, like find my voice and have that conversation? For me, it wasn’t even about telling somebody else it was about telling myself for so long. I like discredited myself and I dismissed it. And I definitely there wasn’t like one moment in my life where I woke up and was like, Oh, this is what I’m gonna do. Like it was an evolution. But there definitely were a couple of moments when I was like, Okay, this is what you really want to do. building that confidence then meant like taking steps. So before I launched, I worked for a year on my business behind the scenes. So when I launched, it wasn’t about it being perfect. And that was something that I had to really be honest with myself about, because that was my default pattern. But it was about knowing that I was going to add value, like, who am I helping? And how am I helping them? So it was definitely like a lot of behind the scenes.
And then to answer your question around, like, how did I broach that conversation? I mean, I’m very grateful. And we’re very, very thankful for like my support network. Because, and I’ve said this offer to you, my brother, I’m so close to him. So having that support is great. And definitely when I think I’ve had those moments of self doubt, and you think luncheon is a big thing, go and run the business, then you’re gonna have to really deal with the self doubt. But I got to the stage where when you talk about like different situations and finances, and whether you’re married or you have kids, the universe gave me a shot. So my goal last year was to run my corporate job alongside my coaching business until I basically matched my salary. And that didn’t happen. The universe was like, cool, this is your time, go and do your thing. You’ve done enough work. And I got made redundant on the day I launched and I had no idea it was come in. And when you talk about responsibilities, I have a mortgage. And I had no cashflow. Like I mean nothing in the bank, okay, that I had no fallback. I had no savings. And they paid me and I was under, like in the UK under two years, you don’t get a redundancy package. So I was getting my last paycheck. And that was it. And I’ve worked since I was 16. So for like 15 years. And that like that was probably one of the hardest lessons I had to learn last year.
Brett Bartholomew 19:09
Yeah, well, I appreciate the in depth answer there. And you’re right, I think when I even reflect on my own journey, and I’d love to know if you can relate to this, there’s a certain aspect of you know, when you do make a decision to go out on your own, especially after you’ve been established in another field, you can feel like you’re sacrificing some level of credibility with the people that have followed you in that field. And what I mean by that is, you know, after spending 15 years solely as a strength and conditioning coach, I remember that it wasn’t my wife that I had to, like, muster up the courage to say, hey, we’re going to do our own thing too. But it was more than weird responses I got from athletes or other coaches, you know, these people that were like, Whoa, timeout, you know, you’re doing what like things are is everything good? Like, yeah, things are going great. I just this is a bigger thing that I want to solve out here. And it’s not that I devalue what I’m doing here. Instead, it’s something bigger and I know For me, that was a very odd thing to navigate, because people almost kind of treated it like and I know this is a drastic verbiage, but some acted almost like you were sick like he had cancer. So like, are you going to be okay? But then I would talk to friends and other professions, whether they were in law or you look at people that have transcended from military or, tech and do coaching type positions or leadership. And that’s looked at not a sacrifice of credibility, but an extension of it saying, Okay, I’ve done it in this field. Now, I’m expanding the ambit of the possibility of people that I can help. And so I remember it took a while for me to settle into my own skin to kind of like, I just, I’d be like, Why is everybody so surprised that I want to evolve? Why is everybody so surprised that for me, the term coach doesn’t just mean a whistle or a weight room or sports performance? It means actually helping people with a wide variety of the shit show that is their life, and all of our lives?
You know, did you feel like that at all? Given that, you know, you were in corporate America? And even if there wasn’t like, a spot that you own there? Was there any of that of your friends checking in on you like hey Amira? You? Good? You are right there? Like, did you deal with any of that?
Amira Mansour 21:11
Yeah, so I would say probably less so from like, my inner circle, and more so from like, the outer. So I’ve had comments along the lines of when are you going to get a real job? So that was a tough one. Yeah. And another one was, okay, so when you’re pregnant, I’m guessing you’ll go back to corporate life. So you get maternity leave. So yeah, they have been probably like the two that stand out the most. And there’s been comments along those lines. And I think I was able to get to that stage where I was able to truly trust me and my decision. And like you say, like, it’s an evolution and its growth. But it goes back to I think, as well, where wherever society or people or your role models or even yourself is so intent on putting your like a label on something and put you in a box, and you’re only allowed to be that one thing, you’re not allowed to be anything else. And I think sometimes like when you grow, it makes other people uncomfortable.
Brett Bartholomew 22:07
Yeah. Yeah. Without a doubt. And I think there’s also the other side of it, where some people think it’s easy, and they jump, and then they realize, what’s the first step I should take? Right? Because it can get, okay, most people jump and the biggest decision they make is their username on social media, or they know they need to get a website, or I think they sometimes underplay the importance of consistency, right, everybody can go and jump in their hair’s on fire for two to six months. And then all of a sudden, it seems like they’re a world beater. And then all of a sudden, a year later, so many drop off. Now, there’s a natural part of that it is hard. Would you mind when you started off on your own? What was the initial hardest step after you made the decision? Here you are, you got the communication expert thing going? What like what’s been the hardest piece for you? And I’m happy to share mine too, if that helps you generate ideas, but just to give people insight on okay, maybe I underestimated that or Yeah, that makes sense. What was some of the hardest aspects of it for you?
Amira Mansour 23:13
I think there’s probably two things that stand out. One is like practical, and one is way more emotional. The thing that was so difficult to navigate was like that internal voice for me and the self doubt. And especially because that wasn’t new. So I had a good reach before. I’ve worked on this. We’ve leveled up so many times. Like, why is this time so much louder? And I think it was coupled with me with the like, the financial element for sure. And I mean, I love talking about money because I just think it’s such a taboo subject and people don’t talk about it
Brett Bartholomew 23:50
especially coaching
Amira Mansour 23:51
Yeah, I hear and I’ve had people message me and be like you shouldn’t put your prices all over Instagram and I was like, it works for me and it works for my business and it works for my clients and I don’t want them to get on a call unless it’s within their remit right and that’s that’s how I operate So the self doubt was coupled massively with like the financial lessons but not from a practical point of view more from I retreated back to a space where and worked so hard to get out of and like the lack and the fear of like not having it except this time. It was like magnified because I had a mortgage and I have
Brett Bartholomew 24:41
a quick break in the action here. I didn’t want to leave you guys hanging with resource that I mentioned about imposter phenomenon. If you want to learn more about the archetypes I mentioned with Amira and the ones that we went through, you can find a full free guide at artofcoaching.com/impostor. It’s in the show notes as well. You easy to click on, you can download it, you can also check out our separate podcast episode, where we talked about that, again, that’s artofcoaching.com/impostor. It’s one of our most popular guides, it’s been downloaded over 15,000 times. So hopefully it will help you or somebody you know, as well. All right back to Amira
Amira Mansour 25:24
I went, I retreated back to a space where and worked so hard to get out of, and like the lack and the fear of like not having it except this time, it was like, magnified because I had a mortgage and I have a home. So that was tough. And I guess the more practical side is, and I still feed it for short is doing it all like you okay, what’s my expertise is me coaching. That’s what I’m phenomenal at. You also need to learn how to run a business. So you better get savvy with money, you better understand a strategy, you better have goals that are like sustainable, you better be thinking like six months ahead constantly, all the time. And I think that my opinion, people may not agree, but you can prep as long as you want to prep. But until you’re in it, that’s when you truly gotta realize like the skill or the like the mammoth task of what you’re actually doing when you’re running a business.
Brett Bartholomew 26:19
Yeah, no spot on, especially the business side of it. I think of so many times I’ve heard other coaches say why don’t look at what I do as a business. It’s not about the money. And I said, well, the people that you’re trying to serve, they do have to make financial decisions. Everybody has to make financial decisions. Even if we looked at purely in the original industry, I started off in strength conditioning, if somebody worked for a certain organization, like an Olympic organization, or a professional sporting organization or a university, I had to remind them that, hey, the people that pay your salary, have to think of what they do at the uni or at the Olympic organization, that’s a business as well, they have to generate funds, they have to generate revenue, they have to go fundraise. And you can’t really understand the totality of people and the magnitude of things they deal with if you’re just going to be ignorant to the financial side.
Now, I do have a question about like this, feeling of self doubt that you have. And inevitably, I know you talked about imposter phenomenon as well. We’ve done a lot on that. I want to list off kind of five, what we call imposter phenomenon archetypes. We’ve identified art of coaching. And I’d love to know which one or ones because we’re always mixed most closely, that you most closely identify with, are you willing to play this game with me?
Amira Mansour 27:32
I love it. Let’s go for it.
Brett Bartholomew 27:34
Okay. And so you can just say yes, and we’ll chalk that down for one that, resonates with you, and then we’ll move on to the next. Okay, so one of the imposter archetypes is the perfectionist, and they would say things like, this isn’t good enough. You know, it needs to set the standard. And I’m just not going to put it out until it’s just right. How’s that?
Amira Mansour 27:54
That was the old me. Okay, that was like, employed me.
Brett Bartholomew 27:58
Okay, employee. Perfect. Right. So that’s it? No. All right, then we have the expert. If I really knew my stuff, I as good as I thought I did. It shouldn’t be this hard.
Amira Mansour 28:09
Yeah,
Brett Bartholomew 28:11
that one? You got a little bit of that in you?
Amira Mansour 28:13
Yeah.
Brett Bartholomew 28:14
Okay, so we got the expert, the soloist, if I can’t do this without help, and then I’m clearly not as good as I thought I was. I shouldn’t need someone else, or this resource or that resource to accomplish this goal.
Amira Mansour 28:30
That’s a no. Again, that was like employed me.
Brett Bartholomew 28:33
Yep. No, that makes sense. The Worrier This isn’t coming together. Like I thought everyone’s gonna think it’s dumb, or some kind of rip off. somebody’s done something similar, or it’s not the best representation of myself.
Amira Mansour 28:45
Oh, just give me 100%.
Brett Bartholomew 28:46
Boom, the worry 100% I last one, and I think we need the worrier, the visionary, I can see what needs to be done. I know what this thing should look like. The final product, I just can’t seem to put together the pieces as fast as I want.
Amira Mansour 29:02
Is there’s definitely an element of that.
Brett Bartholomew 29:04
Okay, so the predominant ones are the expert in the warrior, if I heard you correctly, yeah,
Amira Mansour 29:08
yeah.
Brett Bartholomew 29:09
Yeah. No, I appreciate that. And I think so much of that came from my own issues with that as well. Right. Like, I think that sometimes we mistake and you do a wonderful job, on your account and everything you do talking about this, that imposter phenomenon is actually pretty healthy, like what’s not healthy is not recognizing these traits in ourselves, but like, we’re gonna have doubts, we’re gonna feel like this, you know, some of these things are always plaguing us.
Now. One thing I want to know if it helps you work on this is I know you’re a runner, you know, and we all have strategies that we utilize to help us deal with negative self talk. And you know, just putting immense pressure on ourselves. Does running helping you with that and if not, or if so, what are some other things that you found really help you and your clients overcoming these kinds of things?
Amira Mansour 30:00
You definitely looked at my profile
Brett Bartholomew 30:02
private investigators or drones. My colleague, Ali Kirschner, she took a flight over there as a whole thing.
Amira Mansour 30:09
Okay, I’m impressed. I’m impressed with the level
Brett Bartholomew 30:11
we care over here. Hey, at art of coaching, we care. No, we yeah, we just want to value a Listen, I’ve been on the other side of the microphone. And I’ve had people you know, it’s clear that it’s just kind of copy and paste, get a guest on get a guest off. So we have a long ways to grow. So but we do value your time. So yeah, we’ve prepped your heart, but now you got to answer the damn question.
Amira Mansour 30:33
Running is my meditation 100%. Yeah, it is my meditation is probably the only time which may sound extreme, but it has been for a really long time where I don’t think like, there aren’t thoughts that are running through my head, like all it is, is like one foot in front of the other. And the goal, whether that run was to just get out of the house and to move my body or whether that was like an interval session, which includes like break call. Okay, how much about my base pace? Am I or like, how much have I improved since like, the last time I did that five minute time trial? So yeah, running for me is probably my top number one thing that I do to call me
Brett Bartholomew 31:12
perfect, how about for some of your clients? And obviously, I’m not expecting you to use names, right. But given an idea of some of your client archetypes, some of the things they come to you with? And any kind of strategies you give them.
Amira Mansour 31:26
Yeah, definitely. So I think the biggest thing I get a lot from my clients is around like the confidence. Okay. And I think it’s such a huge umbrella. And the crux of it, is your confidence, comments why I do it. And that I think that having a coach is the thing that keeps you the most accountable. And even going back to when people have gotten a coach and signed up for it. One going back to the financial aspects when you mentioned it, and it’s like crazy, if you don’t take into consideration people are paying you like they have concerns that they may end up coaching with you and not see results. And I will never ever guarantee the results because I always say it’s about CO creating together. So the confidence for me and a big thing, I guess to like really combat the negative self talk and the imposter syndrome. And that self doubt that’s so loud in your head is doing things is doing really small baby steps. Like I’m all about marginal gains, I cannot talk about this enough, okay, because we all want the transformation.
And I get it now, like people inbox me in and say how come you’ve grown your Instagram so quickly? Through really consistent hard work every single day for 10 months. Like that didn’t just magic up. But it’s because we it’s so easy to look at the outside picture. So with my clients is really stripping it back to Okay, you want to get back out and you want to date or you want to be in a relationship, right? Let’s strip that back. What are you telling yourself that you makes me think you can’t have that, and let’s start putting some really small, consistent baby steps. So it sounds boring. And it sounds unsexy. But it works.
Brett Bartholomew 33:07
Yeah, no, it does work, we just did an episode about same concept like laying a brick, right? We talked about how to have a more successful 2022 Whatever that means to you. And one of the things is like laying more bricks, you know, instead of thinking of the wall, you want to build lay a brick. And I think that the problem is when the simple stuff that just goes in the year and out the other. Whereas if I say, you know take this kind of material, the boil it in a pot with some cayenne pepper, make it into this stringy sin you and then you know, vaporize it and have it five times a day. People will remember that because it’s weird. But if you just say lay a brick be consistent marginal gains all these pieces, people really don’t want to believe it. And that’s why five years later, they’re still like, yeah, like Why haven’t I gone anywhere at this and that it is tough.
I think another thing that I’m hearing you say and I’d love clarity on is. And this is kind of tongue in cheek. But I know that you value communication, it’s a core part of your brand, a core part of the thing that you do. But I’m also hearing you talk a lot about helping people with relationships and all these pieces. Now, we all know that communication is part of relationships. But I think there’s a lot of people out there that are still confused on really what communication is. And there’s even more people that think, because we do it every day that we really shouldn’t need training on it. So I guess my question to you is twofold. what is communication really mean to you? And how does that shape the services that you offer? And then two how do you continue to train at becoming a more effective communicator?
Amira Mansour 34:44
Oh, beautiful. Okay, so communication and what it means I think the thing that you said around because we do it every day, regardless of what shape or form or mode is taken, we don’t need it. For me. It’s like the complete opposite. I’m sure you take my tagline Right, but because we do it every day, like at what point in school did you get taught that lesson? At what point did and I’m going to generalize here. Okay, but did your role models or your parental figures that you grew up with said, Look, this is how I learned to communicate, perhaps this is not like the best way, why don’t you try this? Like, from the experience I’ve had, and from the clients I’ve worked with, like, that’s the least thing that happens. Okay. And I think the thing we forget with communication, when you ask me, What does it mean? Like, how do you know it’s taken place? Or how’s it done really? Well. Our basic, like human need is to feel heard and understood. Okay. So a big thing I deal with, with my clients as well, especially if I’m coaching them with somebody that they’ve got friction with, is the conflict and how it comes up and how they see it. And a basic need, it comes back to is I don’t feel seen, and I don’t feel heard. So the big thing around communicating is, your message needs to land in the way that you intended it to. Because more often than not, it doesn’t. And that’s where the gap comes. So that’s kind of answer the first of all,
Brett Bartholomew 36:12
yeah, no, and I want to tell you why I love that answer so much is because, you know, there’s a theory out there in the research that talks about that the actual state, and you alluded to this wonderfully, the actual natural state of human beings is one of misunderstanding, right? If we just go out to the supermarket right now, and you walk around, and let’s say you bump into somebody or whatever, you accidentally cut somebody off. Like we’re always in a state of misunderstanding. Why did that person do that? What did they mean by that? What communication is the very tool that helps us bridge that gap of misunderstanding? So if our natural state in some degrees is one of conflict, and we know from studying human history it is. And then we have this tool, the ability to communicate wisely and well, or at least more effectively than we can shape? Why do more people not utilize that tool? And the only thing I can surmise, and there’s many reasons from the better than average fact, Dunning Kruger is that it doesn’t help that it’s invisible, the same thing that like, and it’s invisible to some degree right now talking about nonverbals. But it’s kind of like you can walk by a bus and you don’t see, you know, the carbon like dioxide coming out of the back of the bus. But we know that if we could see it, like nobody would want to live by a street, they’d never want to run by it, because you’re just inhaling fumes. We also know the effects of gravity, we can see that demonstrated in different ways. I just dropped my pen. Right. But they’re like we undervalue these things that we can’t grab, we undervalue these things, that it doesn’t look like a skill. Yeah, so no, I think that’s wonderful. Now, the second part, because I was long winded, how do you personally stay sharp with your own communication skills? And how do you continue to grow in this space?
Amira Mansour 37:54
So for me, it’s probably like three different elements to it as well. And I’ll go back to as all your other partner you’re asking around, like how it actually plays out with my clients, because the tooling, so for me, a few things, first thing is that I have my own coach, and I will always have my own coach, because I guess, going back to the question you asked earlier, when we did the archetypes is I didn’t get here on my own. Like, I’ve had amazing mentors. And people along the way, who have seen something in me and at a time when I didn’t see it, and I needed that person, right. So how I am always going to stay upskilling myself is from somebody else given me insight that I can’t see and have enough space held for me. And I have to I don’t know if I’ve actually ever said this on my Instagram. Just because I claim to be the expert does not mean that I’m not working on stuff like I work on it every day. And sometimes I feel that because I’m in this space, like, is it just a more in tune to it? Or do I feel like I’ve got more things to work on than ever before. So that’s really important for somebody else to hold space for me,
the second part of it is actually practicing it. So a huge part of how it plays out into my day to day life is my romantic relationship and understanding the way that we both communicate. And I’m very grateful, very grateful for the relationship that I have and the way that we communicate with each other. But that wasn’t chance. That wasn’t by luck. That was about it, setting expectations from the beginning. And if you actually look at us both, we have very different ways of working very different ways of communicating, and very different, like complex sequences as well. So it’s about like constantly bringing it back to not being right or wrong and having a respect. And we grew up differently as well. So I’m probably the louder of the two and react way more fiery. So when you say and as well, how am I upskilling sometimes it feels tough, difficult, tough as a new business owner and having a relationship and trying to navigate those parts of it. So it’s me acknowledging as well when my lessons are on an actual practical level, rather than just having a theory and a conversation with my coach. So that’s that. And then my third element is like my practical qualifications and always upskilling there. So yeah, I’ve worked in learning development for a really long time. Yes, I’ve got my coaching qualification. For me a really big focus this year was like, Cool. What’s next? Like, how else are we going to fine tune these skills? And I hope that never stops.
Brett Bartholomew 40:27
Yeah, well, you know, what’s next, you’re coming to one of our workshops is what’s next. no, I think that you put there that I hope our audience didn’t miss is and I think I want to take a moment to imagine how I phrase this. There was a time in my own business, where I felt like if I wasn’t constantly reading research on certain things that I did that, okay, am I getting behind and this last year, because I’ve been working so much on my next book, and my doctorate, I’ve read research, but I didn’t get to read a lot of other stuff around that. So I kind of felt like certain things were in a vacuum is my development stagnating. And I had to remind myself that okay, I’m teaching a lot one that is constant training, because you’re always trying to refine how you work the room, how you address people’s questions, if you’re really hearing what you think that you thought they heard, or they said, No, and then also even times if my wife and I are just watching TV, there are times where I’d pay attention, which definitely doesn’t look like classical learning, but because of the information that I know about nonverbals, verbals tonality, clarity, conciseness, orchestration, seeing that in the actors, how did they demonstrate this? How did they flash that emotion? Did they use a softener to downplay this in the scene, and so it’s funny, you start having to realize that, especially as you become a father or a mother, or just take on different roles in your life, education is everywhere, as long as you’ve laid the foundation, right? But I think that that’s what scares me is some people as it pertains to communication. They haven’t laid that foundation, which is why this next question is, is really more for fun, right? So I’m not looking for a particular answer. Just looking like to hear what your thoughts are.
What do you think, given the importance of interpersonal communication, and even intra? What do you think the future of training in this space should look like? Like, for example, our workshops are highly interactive, we do a lot of video review, peer evaluation, self evaluations,we utilize roleplay scenario planning, even if something’s not likely to happen, and somebody’s certain in their life, or what have you. We will play that out as if it is because we all face an uncertain volatile future. But what do you think the future of this kind of training are even your ideal, like something that you would like to do looks like in this space?
Amira Mansour 42:48
What a fun question. So I definitely think I would love to see this taught in schools, I’d absolutely love it. And I know that psychology as kids is really different to an adult and a lot of your childhood shapes, how we act and how we behave and our belief system as adults. But I think there’s such an important lesson from a young age to start tapping in and being aware of, okay, what’s the communication style that you tend to lean towards? How do you deal and shift into a conflict state, and then creating this toolbox from a younger age of understanding how to adapt? That’s like, a huge thing that I would absolutely love to see.
Brett Bartholomew 43:32
Yeah, I think that is so critical. We always talked about it art of coaching. And it is ironic that certain things that should be taught in schools are increasingly just removed like so for example, the easy one is physical literacy, kids not moving exercising. The other one without question is communication. And then also just sex education. You know, I continue to find it comedic that when you study history, you can see statues of Romans and Greeks, and you’ll see, you know, the female form and the male form in their natural state. But today, if anybody sees a glimpse of nudity, it is the most ah, clutching pearls, you know, like, this can’t be and when we don’t talk about talk, you know, with communication, and we don’t just continue to engage in these more difficult topics. I don’t get how it creates a quote unquote, healthier society.
All right, so I do have some rapid fire questions for you. That that I’m dying to, like just get your take on are you good on that?
Amira Mansour 44:35
I am so good on this. So good.
Brett Bartholomew 44:38
Okay, now I have to let’s see, I gotta decide which ones I want to start with. Let’s see. Now you mentioned the importance of feeling heard how many people just want to feel heard how many people want to feel understood? What is it there are going to be some coaches and people listening and I use the term coach broadly right? Whether it’s educator counselor or coach in anything like that, there are going to be people that think that they are making that other individual feel heard, but they don’t know how to tell the signs. Now I appreciate that everybody’s different. But let’s say we’re talking about you, Amira, how do you demonstrate? Or how would I know if I’m connecting with you? If you felt hurt if you felt validated? What are some things I should look out for? What are what are some things that really tell me if I’ve gotten my point across to you personally?
Amira Mansour 45:25
Oh, yes, this is good. Body language for me is going to be a big sign your body language, but also tone of voice? Because you tend to sense like somebody tighten up in some way, shape or form if you haven’t connected with them. And even in like romantic relationships, I see it with couples so much. And they’re like, Yeah, but that’s how they’ve reacted and like, Okay, well, what’s, signals have you received as to why they’ve disconnected from you? So I think it equally works, when you’re asking how somebody connected. So for me, definitely connecting with you, as my body language is how much I’m smiling. It’s how upbeat my tone of voice is. And it’s whether like, I’m sitting comfortably and feel good within myself. And I think definitely when you’re not, you’ve got like leaky body language, and you just have to become aware as the receiver.
Brett Bartholomew 46:19
Perfect. Now let’s imagine we turn the video off. Let’s imagine I can’t see you. And let’s imagine I did something that made you feel not heard or understood. Now, most of our audience is just going to hear your voice, they’re not going to watch the video, they’re gonna hear the audio. So imagine I just said something that made you feel not heard or understood. What was your tone of voice sound like then if you’ve responded to me?
Amira Mansour 46:42
I mean, you might not even get a response. You might just be silent treatment.
Brett Bartholomew 46:46
Okay, fair. Fair enough. All right, perfect. All right. Now let’s try another one. What you like, where is an area in your life? Because we know we all have it. And I think it’s important that we look inward. If we want to understand everybody else, where in your life, are you extraordinarily stubborn? You know, what is something where it despite everything you know, about yourself and communication, and you’re the expert and all these things? Where is an area where you’re like, Oh, my God, I am still such a stubborn punk or a child when it comes to this? Or are you? Can you give an example in the past when you were stubborn about something?
Amira Mansour 47:23
Oh, my God. I mean, yeah, there’s a few examples screaming at me. One, I’m very passionate about something that I sometimes lean into the passion way too much, and it’s over done. And I won’t communicate in an effective way at all like that, for sure is massive for me. And the other thing as well, which sometimes I feel like I might have foresight on a situation, and if somebody doesn’t necessarily see the same foresight, that’s where I need to learn to communicate that very differently.
Brett Bartholomew 47:56
Yeah, well, said. So let’s imagine I’m trying to convince you of something. Opposite of something you’re extraordinarily passionate about. So you’re passionate, you’re on one about a certain topic, and I’m trying to change either your behavior or your thoughts on that. What is your silver bullet? What’s the best approach I could use for you? Amira, not the best approach anybody could use anywhere in the world, we no one size fits all leadership doesn’t work. But what is one approach that I could lead with to be more likely to convince you or persuade you.
Amira Mansour 48:31
Be soft with me? Like, be soft? Because if you’re gonna keep coming in, whether like defensive answer or how I’m going to perceive that as a defensive answer, or a rebuttal or an alternative opinion, So actually, like, defuse me and defuse the situation by doing the complete opposite and being super soft. And then Oh, okay. Well, I haven’t thought about it like that. Well, have you seen it from this view? And that actually will completely disarmed me.
Brett Bartholomew 49:01
Alright, why don’t I appreciate the example and we’re gonna do this. Alright, we’re gonna play opposite though. I’m going to be you. And you’re gonna, you’re gonna be me. Now I need you to come in soft. So I’m gonna imagine you just said what you said to me. And remember, its role reversal. I’m you I’m here. So you just said have you ever considered it? Like, you know what? Yeah, Brett. I have I have thought of it like that. And you know, you make a good point. But I still stand firm on what I believe with this. So I’m not convinced.
Amira Mansour 49:30
A mirror, I get that and you are so entitled to your opinion, and there’s a reason why you’ve got it. Have you thought about a different perspective, that might give you a different way of doing things
Brett Bartholomew 49:42
come out entitled, first off, I appreciate that you’re trying to connect with me, but I don’t really like that word. Now. I know I think what you’re trying to say is that my opinions my own and you respect that. But yeah, I mean, I’ve tried listening this out looking at all these different perspectives and You know, Brett, I just I’m still not convinced. So I’m sorry, You’re gonna have to try something else here.
Amira Mansour 50:06
That’s okay. Because I’m not forcing you to have the same view. And I think the beauty is in the conversation of being able to disagree, have different perspectives. And if that’s a viewpoint is something that you strongly feel when you want to stand by that that’s okay. But equally from my perspective, I also see it differently.
Brett Bartholomew 50:26
Perfect. Well, I think for now, we can just agree to disagree, and maybe come back to this at a later date. I appreciate you at least hearing me out.
Amira Mansour 50:35
that sounds like a good idea. Hey, you went in harder than I was.
Brett Bartholomew 50:40
I had to, because we had the video off right now. Like it’s its own communication experiment, right. But we always try to just have some fun with roleplay. And I think your approach right there just shows your expertise. It’s not about force, right? It’s about understanding, well, there are times to push, there are times to pull. And sometimes it’s a balance, depending on the individual. But I appreciate you being a good sport.
Listen, Amira. I want people to find out more about you and your work. There are so many coaches in our community, that want to improve in their relationships with themselves as well as others. I know you talk so much about conflict, what it is what it isn’t, and we all need healthier perspectives on this. I want you to tell everybody where they can find you. I have one more hot take question that it was a mistake on my end, because I forgot to ask you and I’m not letting you Get off the call without it. But where can everybody find you? Where can they learn more about you? Most importantly, where can they go to support you?
Amira Mansour 51:36
Oh, amazing. Please, please, please come and say hi, I love love to see new people in the community. And you can find me @the_communicationexpert over on Instagram.
Brett Bartholomew 51:47
Perfect. And as always, we’ll put this in show notes and everything so everybody can find it. Alright, you ready for the final hot take? Now this one’s a bit risque. So you gotta be careful saying yes to this.
Amira Mansour 52:00
Okay, go for it. I’m so nervous.
Brett Bartholomew 52:01
Okay. And I don’t even know, maybe I’ll lose some pants for this one. So we had a conversation internally, and it’s a little bit of a debate. And I know everybody kind of loves to have black and white kind of arguments. This one’s in the gray area. And I even love to hear our audience debate. So if you guys want to get all heated about this, feel free to sound off on my Instagram or whatever. True or false hot take more than likely, better communicators are also better lovers.
Amira Mansour 52:32
Oh, hell yes. True.
Brett Bartholomew 52:35
I’m just saying because there’s gonna be some of the silent type, or people that are like, you know, they don’t feel like they’re strong communicators and they be like, screw that. I’m good in the bedroom. I do this I’m attentive to the needs. But I want to see your Alright, so we got to true. I think we might need to do like a running tally on this.
But listen, Amira, you have been wonderful. I definitely want to have you back on especially to navigate more concrete or to talk about more things regarding relationships, spotting toxic relationships, all these things. So we’re gonna line up a part two without question. All that you get the final word before we sign off anything you want to say.
Amira Mansour 53:10
I’m really excited for part two but as I said, offer a big thank you for having me on. It’s been an absolute pleasure. And I hope everyone has enjoyed listening.
Brett Bartholomew 53:18
Absolutely, guys, until next time, Brett Bartholomew and Amira here. Make sure you train yourselves as communicators. It is the most valuable skill you will attenuate and build and develop in your life. It’ll impact everything from your personal relationships, your professional relationships, and you really only learned the ramifications of not doing so once before it hits you in the head. Alright, until next time, art of coaching podcast signing off.
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