If you examined the common characteristics of all of the CEO’s, high level athletes, MD’s and Special Operators in the world it’s highly likely you’d find they all have one quality in common that drives their success: discontent. For some reason, most successful people can never stop and appreciate what they have done as soon as they achieve they are onto the next thing. On the flip side this quality can be a curse that leads to failed marriages, abandon children, health problems and more. This is the paradox of being passionate and it’s the topic of this weeks show with my guests Brad Stulberg & Steve Magness who have co-authored a new book called “The Passion Paradox”.
About The Authors
Brad Stulberg is an author and executive consultant/coach while Steve Magness is an elite level distance running coach. Together in 2017, they authored the best-selling book “Peak Performance”.
Both men are high achievers in their chosen fields, and have had to face this paradox on their own and have become highly qualified to talk about being passionate, losing balance and being burnt out.
Topics Covered On This Weeks Show
- What made the authors want to write the book
- Does commitment bring on the Passion Paradox
- Chasing validation and the cost of doing it
- Do Brad and Steve get jealous of other books in their category that get more praise than them
- Why forcing performance always back fires
- How to go down the research rabbit hole without letting the nuance of it consume you
- Why asking for help can prevent the passion paradox
- Is passion suffering?
- Is living a balanced life an illusion?
- Having people around you that can call you out
passionparadoxbook.com
@SteveMagness
@BStulberg
TRANSCRIPT
Brett Bartholomew
March 19. That is the date that the book that we’re going to be talking about on this podcast episode is going to release. It is called the Passion Paradox. It’s by Brad Stolberg and Steve Magnus, two friends of mine. They’re also the authors of Peak Performance. Many of you guys have read that it’s been pretty cool. Usually, whenever I saw somebody post something about Conscious Coaching, Peak Performance was right alongside that in some of your guys’s Instagram pictures. And that was just kind of surreal, especially because Brad and Steve were huge in regards to giving me advice when I was a clueless first time self published author, so to be able to share that space with them was huge
You guys are gonna love this episode. The passion paradox is something that I think is overdue. And while we’ve heard people talk about the importance of passion for a long time, you’d be surprised at how it can misguide you how it can mislead you. Some of you might already know a little bit about this because if you’re on my newsletter, about a week ago, you got a early pre order form. You got some other freebies that Brad and Steve sent along with it. So thank you to those of you that are on the newsletter hoping you guys are finding value in that because those PDFs and everything they did are a ton of added value. If you guys want to get on that newsletter really simple, just artofcoaching.com/start artofcoaching.com/start, and one cool thing about it guys is it just comes out once monthly. You know I don’t bug you, I try to give you some of the best resources and articles from that other people have put out and then some ones that I’ve enjoyed along with that, have really helped me get over some sticking points. And then also some stuff that I’ve done that you maybe won’t find me sharing on social media you might not find me talking about on the podcast. So again, artofcoaching.com/start, let me know what you think of this episode. We’re gonna dive in right now
What’s going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of The Art of coaching Podcast. I’m joined today by my two friends, Brad Stulber and Steve Magnus. Guys, what’s going on?
Brad Stulber
Hey, Brad. Good to be on the show, man.
Steve Magness
Yeah, thanks for having us.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, no, it’s my pleasure. I love it. Because before the show, I was asking these guys how they wanted to be introduced, just making sure I did my due diligence appropriately. We all know what it’s like when, whether you have a last name that’s pronounced or somebody I remember I was on a podcast and somebody said, Hey, you’re still with X company. Right? And that was like half a decade ago. But these guys are so humble that the main thing they said is, hey, we write books and coach executive athletes. And we both been involved in the running world for quite a while. So they’re probably being a bit too modest. And guys, I’ll let you fill in any gaps. But is there anything you kind of want to give the audience some insight to around your background? Before we dive in?
Brad Stulber
Steve, I’ll let you lead off.
Steve Magness
Okay, got it. So my background as you kind of alluded that there is running so I was a relatively high performer and running, and then got into coaching and had been fortunate enough to coach athletes at the collegiate level. And then also professional level had guys qualify for Olympics, all that stuff actually just had a guy get a bronze medal at the European Championships. So that’s been great. Top of my mind. So it’s awesome thing. But you know, the main thing that I do beyond coaching is write books. And we’ve got this a new book coming out called the Passion Paradox, which, you know, I’m sure we’ll get into.
Brett Bartholomew
Absolutely, Brad.
Brad Stulber
Yeah. So what Steve said, with the exception that most of my coaching practice focuses on entrepreneurs, executives, and physicians. So I work with people outside of sport on improving their performance. And while I love coaching, I also love writing and write for Outside Magazine, write essays all over the place. And my best work has been my work with Steve. So our first book performance and now this book, Passion Paradox.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, and I think that the interesting thing about this and why it’s timely is one of the things that I’ve been talking to a lot It coaches about recently is burnout and, you know, passion. You guys allude to it early on common advice is to find and follow your passion, but that’s not always the best advice, right? Like, we have these heuristics and rules of thumb and, and these things that we think make people successful. But Brad in particular, especially in regards to your own personal experience, how his passion kind of derailed you at times, or maybe how his passion and kind of following that rabbit hole and we’re diving in here, maybe misguided you during times your personal or professional life.
Brad Stulber
Man, how long do you have? That’s why we wrote the book
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah we got this. This I mean, yeah, and I mean, but that’s what I want. I want people the books gonna be great, but people want to know exactly kind of what what made you want to write this from your perspective? And then later, Steve’s
Brad Stulber
totally so I think the backstory on how this book came to be is probably the best way to address this question. So even I had written peak performance together. Our first book with a major publishing house, and we finished the book, and we thought we were gonna get edits back, I think it was like the month of August. So we scheduled two weeks to be in person together. Steve lives in Houston, I live in Oakland. So different states. And our publisher was running a little bit behind. So we didn’t have the edits. So we had literally just finished this book with a major publishing house, got a book deal got in advance. And instead of like partying or going on long hikes, which maybe we should have done, we said, Well, shit, like let’s start writing the next book. And then we looked at each other, what’s wrong with us? Like, why can’t we just be content? Why are we already having to start the next thing, we not even finished the first one. This is a milestone, and we’re already thinking about the next one, we can’t help ourselves. No, we looked at each other again, and we’re like, wow, like, maybe we should write a book about this. Because a lot of the coaching clients that I work with, outside of sport, and certainly the athletes that Steve works with, they have this temperament that we’ve come to call pushers. So people that just push, push, push that can’t be content that want to go go go. And that temperament can be the best gift in the world. Right? That’s what like, that’s how people write books, and come up with vaccines, and win Olympic medals. And in those moments, life can feel more meaningful than ever. But that same temperament and that same inability to be content can also become a curse. Because if you’re constantly wanting the next thing, or striving or thinking about the next thing, that can be a very, volatile emotional roller coaster. So that’s the paradox of passion. it’s this thing that can be the best asset and the most meaningful energizing thing in your life. And at the same time, it can become a curse. And it can be both things on the same day. So yeah, Steve, I don’t know what you have to add, but it really like manifested and looking at ourselves. In the last day, I guess I have one more thing to add, is that passion tends to be this very, like value laden world, find and follow your passion. And if you’re not passionate, you’re doing it wrong. Or the opposite, like ooh, passion is like this force and stay away from it. And we think that that’s bullshit, like passion is actually very nuanced. And it can be both of those things at once. And then the question is, if you recognize that you have a passionate temperament, if you’re a pusher, well, how do you work with that in a way that is more productive than it is destructive?
Steve Magness
Yeah, and I just add that, and this is probably really relevant for your audience of coaches and stuff is that in the sporting world, like we almost build this in, right, we always have something else to like, push towards, right? If we lose a game or lose a race, like there’s always another one coming up. Or if we’re in the offseason, we sit there and say, All right, like I’ve got three months to get better. So that, next season I’m gonna turn this around and improve, improve, improve. And I think in a lot of ways, that’s kind of unique to athletes, although executives as, Brad mentioned, feel that but it’s almost like ingrained in our culture. So as someone with a sporting background, like I always felt this right, in my own running career, it was always like, Okay, what’s next? And my own like coaching career, it was always like, Okay, how do I get better for the next season? Like, what’s the next goal on the horizon? I’m so almost goal focused, that it’s easy to get lost in this world of always pushing, pushing, pushing, which I think, gets to your first point, Brett is that that can also lead to this, this feeling of burnout, right where, even if we’re the most mentally strong, tough person out there and most motivated person, there’s only so much fuel in the tank where we can just like, put our head down and grind through these, long days of coaching and all that good stuff. So it’s just like a very personal thing to us. And as Brad said, I like that’s why we explored this topic. It’s not because we had it figured out in the beginning, it’s because, we’re struggling with it as well. And we figured, hey, if we’re two guys struggling with this aspect, like there’s gotta be something to it.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, and I think that brings up a really good point, passion is not something you can or in my opinion, should even talk about, if you haven’t experienced some kind of struggle, and commitment and passion in my book have always kind of gone hand in hand with kind of this misinterpretation. And one of the things that I’d be interested in getting your take on, and Brad will start with you first on this one. And then Steve, but, when I looked at commitment, when I was going through some things, I tried to think about, why do I go through this? Well, I know, I’m pretty fiercely committed, if I say, I’m going to do something almost to the point where I gotta be really cognizant of not falling into that kind of sunk cost fallacy, where, I’ve got to know when it really is time to walk away, or I won’t. And so when I looked up commitment, what the research showed it was a 2013 article is that there’s three types, and there’s affective commitment, like a effective, which is kind of wanting to stay with an organization or a task, because you have this emotional attachment to it a personal identification. In other words, you feel like you do something or stay somewhere because you want to, there’s a normative commitment. So that’s like a feeling of a moral obligation. It could be influenced by social norms, there could be social comparison, that’s kind of like I feel like I ought to. And then there’s continuance forms of commitment, which is like you feel stuck, or you’re staying because it’s too costly to leave classic sunk costs. And that’s like, I have to, if you look at these forms of commitment, like people doing things because they want to, or they feel like they ought to, or they feel like they have to Brad, where do you think that passion paradox is most likely to be represented?
Brad Stulber
Great question, like you’re getting to the heart of it. So I think that it, often starts out as someone doing something because they want to, and they love the thing, and it brings them joy, or they feel like really mission or purpose driven. And then what ends up happening is you do well, so you start to get good results. In with good results, especially in today’s day and age with social media, you get external validation. So people comment on your good work. And then suddenly, you can get more passionate about that external validation than the thing itself. And that’s when you feel like I need to do this, I need to tweet three times a day, I need to win this race. I need to be known in my field, because my whole ego, my whole passion is tied up in now what other people think external validation, that’s very different than doing an activity because you love the thing itself. and again, it’s not black or white, it can be both, and a lot of people start in the literature, this is the difference between harmonious and obsessive passion. Why do people start harmonious, they’re doing what they’re doing, because they love it, and it’s very purpose driven. And then once they start to do well, they get sucked into obsessive passion.
This this stuff lives on the spectrum. I’m curious to hear what Steve says in this moment. But I used to say that you want to be like 60%, harmonious, 40% obsessive. Now, I think that even like 55 45 is good. Because we’re humans, like it feels good to do well, of course, you want to do well, and external validation feels good. But if that becomes the primary reason that you’re doing something, then you no longer have control. And that’s scary.
Brett Bartholomew
Now, you bring up a good point, before we turn to Steve, just what you mentioned about external validation. It is funny, because in the burnout literature, they literally talk about how people that go down that spiral, it’s because of a lot of they’re really craving social reward. it’s not so much monetary and social reward and that validation of am I amongst the best at what I do, and I see that in coaching a lot where people feel like they have got to coach at a major division one school, or they have got to be in the pro sports side of things or they will not get the validation they seek. So Steve, I definitely want you to piggyback or kind of share your thoughts on what Brad talked about. But can you also talk about that having worked with people who have metal that extremely high levels, what do you feel about that topic?
Steve Magness
yeah, the funny thing is, it’s even harder to deal with now. out then even say five or 10 years ago, right? Because, five or 10 years ago, if you did well out whatever it was you were doing, let’s say you medal that a major Track and Field championship like that was important to you and to people who follow track. But unless you, took the time to follow track like no one else could, could kind of look and evaluate that. But nowadays in a hyper connected social media meto a world, it becomes like the thing that is like associated with our Twitter profile, right? Everybody can find and judge you, right? Everybody can look and say, Oh, I’m gonna go see who this Brett Bartholomew guy is look at your Twitter or Instagram, see how many followers you have, see what you’ve done, and like, immediately judge you. So we’re put in a position where even more so than probably anytime in history, like we pay attention to those external validators. And that’s to me, a major problem. And if you look at some of the research, actually, is that young, adults and teens are having problems with what they call identity formation. So having like a very solid sense of who they are, because they’re constantly put in this world of comparison, that is almost impossible to to win. And as you mentioned, like, the more we fall into that line of like, external validation need, and like, not having a firm sense of identity, the more we increase our chances of having burnout and some of these negative things, which I think gets to the earlier point on your great paradigm there of having like, you know, want to need to have to, is I think eventually what happens is, if our identity gets so tied up, and what we do, right, where we have to get these validation, then we transition into, almost a negative experience of I have to, and you see this in in runners a lot of times where they almost feel like addicted to running and it becomes like this, negative thing, so much so that at the end of the season, let’s say and they have, their coach tells them to take a week off, they’ll actually get signs and symptoms of like withdrawal and depression, because it’s like, they don’t have this, oh, I have to do that. And I’m being told not to. So it’s almost like, coming off a drug addiction, which is crazy, in my mind.
Brett Bartholomew
It’s a really interesting parallel. And it’s funny how much so much of it also feeds into this kind of self presentation, you were mentioning the expert and how people have access to anybody they want now. And I remember I had read a book, it was called Presentation of Self in Everyday Life by Erving Goffman, I think it was written like 1955. And he had this line that I read one time, and I really I had to, when you read a book, and you have to go back and almost read something four or five times, not necessarily because you don’t understand it, but more so because of how hard it hits you. You know, he was talking about there’s this notion of face work where people construct and really want to project a certain image of themselves in order to leave a desired impression in the eyes of others. And we’re not that that’s familiar. But this line in particular that was kind of repeated in this article is the central figure or feature of a stigmatized individual situation in life is genuinely like to gain acceptance and or respect. But ironically, that’s precisely what that kind of stigma puts at risk. The more you chase these things, whether it is because of an imbalance because of harmonious and obsessive passion, or because of you chasing the wrong social reward and you feel like you need to, it literally puts the very things you’re looking to do as well as your personal and mental health at risk. I mean, is there a time, Brad that you can remember really chasing after something that you thought was going to bring you some form of validation, even amongst fellow writers or anything like that, that you’re just like you said,
Brad Stulber
that happens every time I tweet? Um, no, I’m kidding. But yeah, like that happens often. And I think that, for me I am totally like any other human like, I crave validation. And even writing a book, like, I want the book to do so well. And then I asked myself why I want the book to do well. And then I tell myself, well, because then, I could get another book deal. And Steve and I could keep writing books and I could have autonomy in that and that kind of think, well, like I have a lot of autonomy right now. Like if now’s not good enough and what’s going to be good enough. And then I kind of reflect on like, Well, what do I really like about writing books? It’s the research, it’s the conversations I have with interesting people. it’s not like the actual book sales. And yes, I want to make a living doing it. So money is important, but like, it doesn’t have to be the number one bestseller in the world. And if it was nothing in my life would change. When peak performance first came out, Stev and I somehow got convinced that the book had a really good chance at landing on the New York Times bestseller list. And for a week, we were freaking crazy about it. And I remember like the list publishes on a Friday. And Steve and I were sitting there like, ‘m texting, like, when was the last time you uploaded the New York Times bestseller page. And I think this is important, like, I want to be vulnerable. Like we write about this stuff. We’re experts in this. And like, it’s really freaking hard not to do this. So there we are doing that. And we didn’t get on the list. And I remember being like, bummed for maybe two hours. And then after that whole storm pass, being like, that was fucking stupid. Like, I’m still married to my wife. I still love Steve. I’m still proud of the book. Still sold a bunch of copies, like, who cares?
Brett Bartholomew
But to that point, Brad, like Did you catch yourself doing this? Did you catch yourself looking at the list, seeing a book that was on there and be like, even just for a moment be like, really,
Brad Stulber
totally normal, I just noticed, I’m like, here I am comparing again. And then I get back to whatever it is I’m doing. Because like, we’re humans, we’re never going to eliminate all this. And I think like really experiencing that, it’s almost like a bad drug high. Like, that’s how that week felt in this year. DoI want to be on the list. Yeah, absolutely. Am I gonna sit there refreshing the New York Times website all week. Fuck no. Because like, I had that bad drug High. Like, it felt gross.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, you’re that dude in the wire that just injected up with a dirty needle. Steve, how about you in terms of that process? How does that affect you? Or what approached?
Steve Magness
Yeah, it’s interesting, I guess I’ll talk in the sporting context a little bit. But in my coaching practice, like we call this fixating, right, where you get so fixated on like a goal, or in running like, running a certain time or breaking a certain barrier because the track and field is so raw, like you’re instantly judge like talk about knowing where you stand like you where your best time almost as a label of how good or bad you are in the sport. So a lot of times what happens is people like fixated on Okay, I need to, run a mile in four minutes, or, I need to run the 446 seconds. And they become so, obsessed with hitting this goal, that they start trying to like force this breakthrough, right? Inevitably, anytime you try and force a performance as you know, Brett like it backfires, right? You just don’t perform as well, when the same thing happens in other aspects of life. So, you know, I see this as how in the world can you prevent yourself from, getting in this like obsessed, fixated state and instead like, put yourself in a position where yeah, you’re fit enough to do to, run real fast or you’ve done the work and writing it but you almost have to let the breakthrough come and not get so tied up in like trying to get this validation that it just backfires.
Brett Bartholomew
It’s kind of would you and tell me if I’m way off here, but just I know, different people relate to different things and being conscious of the audience and different metaphors. I know, I learned really well from metaphors or analogies even is it’s almost like investing, right? It’s like people that try to, they’re these day traders and they’re trying to get what’s the hot tip on Wall Street and I’m gonna put all my eggs in that basket as opposed to the steady investor that lets just small compound interest steady gains over time, you know, really lead to that realization of the true reward, is there a synchrony between those that kind of
Steve Magness
100% I mean, I think he nailed that there because think about it the day trader is way more susceptible to the these emotional highs and lows right? Because he’s trying to get this like validation of like, Oh, I’m beating, the standard like I’ve got the hot tip, I am obsessed and invested in this and what happens and if you look at as you probably know, like the research on this stuff, most people do pretty horrible at it versus like a steady like, hey, put your money in some good index funds or whatever. And like just sit back and let it ride the highs and lows and you’ll do much better than if you went all in on obsessing over Today on whether your stocks are going up and down.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, speaking of comparison, I’m feeling kind of self conscious right now, because I feel like when you, talk one, it sounds like you’ve got a better microphone than me. And we’ve talked about that too. But you’re also kind of this mix between a Roman orator and Steve Jobs. Like, I’m like, you’re pretty solid command of the English language here. And it makes me I think, God, I have a beard, I still have an edge on here. I want to switch gears a little bit and speak more to your guys process within the research that you do for the books both what that what you did for peak performance. And for the Passion Paradox. Now, it’s clear that you guys really love alliteration, specifically of the letter P. But, and on a serious note, there’s a lot of just nonsensical research that’s being done, in a variety of fields. But I think one thing that really separates you guys, as authors, and why I consider myself lucky to call your friends, is the way you approach research, you don’t really do the whole, let’s go for confirmation bias. Let’s only explore one side of this, let’s just act like there’s one answer and then give somebody some inspirational habits. And here’s the book and cut me a check for a TED Talk. It’s something that sets your work apart in my mind, can you both address? Steve, we’ll start with you on this one. Because Brad got the jump on the others. How do you guys approach the research side of things? And what could the listeners maybe learn from you guys in terms of going deep enough down the rabbit hole, while also not letting every single nuance kind of consume you?
Steve Magness
Yeah, it’s interesting, you use the word nuance there. Because I think the way Brad and I look at things is that life is full of, nuance, and we want these black and white answers. So when we’re exploring a topic, like, we want to dive deep enough, where we understand the nuance of it, right, we don’t just say, oh, passion, like go find it, because like, it’s supposedly a good thing, like, this makes a good story, it sells a lot of books like, we’ll do this, at the same time, like, we try to make sure that we’re not those people who get lost in the weeds and can’t, have the practical takeaway, because, as you kind of mentioned, research is great and all but like, if it doesn’t impact our behaviors, or our change what how we think about something, then it’s really, it doesn’t do anything, in the in the coaching world, you see this all the time, it’s like, oh, here’s this great study on such and such exercise, and it’s like, Well, does, that impact how I coach or not? Because if it doesn’t, I mean, that’s interesting, but it doesn’t really matter to me. So when we take a topic, I think what really helps Brad and I as, we come at it from a couple of different angles. I mean, I’m more of a science geek. And Brad’s probably more of a philosophy guy. But we try and take it with open mind and like, do a deep dive on a variety of subjects. So it’s not just looking at like the scientific research, but we’ll evaluate, famous philosophers or like other people in disparate fields who have written on similar topics, so that we have at least like a, decent understanding of it. if I was to give any advice for your audience, it’s this, it’s that if you look at any field, right, if it’s coaching football, for example, like football coaches speak a different language, right? You have your own, like language and nuance that, if I never coached football, like I showed up for practice, I wouldn’t understand what the heck you’re doing. Every field has that language. So you need to like dive deep enough where you understand like that fields, nuance of language, but you don’t have to become like a incredible expert on all the details, you just got to understand what they’re talking about.
Brett Bartholomew
That’s good, too. And that’s exactly what we tried to do on the podcast. So I appreciate that is in terms of giving tactical advice, because we try to avoid this kind of just consumption marathon that people have, where they listen to thoughts, ideas, cool at the end of this, they check out your guy’s book, but they’re not really, we want people to be action oriented. So I think you make a good point, dive deeply enough to understand, you know, the language and why the language is a certain way and make sure that you’re not just some dilettante. but so that you can then make sure that it actually impacts your coaching. Brad, how about you? How do you address kind of the research side of it? How do you even get access to some of the research it seems like Robert Valerie’s work was obviously a part of this given the harmonious and passion kind of nomenclature,
Brad Stulber
Google Scholar,
Brett Bartholomew
but where do you even go for access to this stuff
Brad Stulber
stuff is just there and it’s open access and then the stuff that’s not open access? Steve’s affiliation with the University of Houston, we’re able to get a lot of that. And then like the super guarded stuff on we’ve got some close friends and mentors that are senior Researchers at huge institutions and they are not going to name names to get them in trouble. But they’re always good to send us a PDF of something we can’t access. But Google Scholar is a great, a really wonderful starting point, I think it’s important that everyone understands, like how to use search terms. And you can just Google like, how to use search terms on Google Scholar. Because once you can get pretty good with search terms, it doesn’t take long to narrow in on a body of research. Yeah, so for, for instance,
Brett Bartholomew
just for the audience a little bit, though, can you give me an example of some of those search terms,
Brad Stulber
the relationship between passion and addiction, so rather than typing in the relationship between passion and addiction, because then you’re gonna get studies on relationships, on passion on addiction, you might type in like, passion, and addiction, if we want to make sure that both those words are in the study or passion or addiction, and then we’re gonna get addiction and passion studies. Um, so just like having a simple understanding like that saves so much time in terms of actually finding meaningful research. Yeah. Oh, I was just gonna say that. The other thing like the broader thing.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, and I think that’s really Oh, sorry, go ahead do is
Brad Stulber
that to be careful with how I say this, because like, truth is having a moment, right, like fake truth, fake news, whatever. But a scientific mind realizes that there are very few things that we know are true, especially in the performance world. And in psychology, because like humans are very complex. So if you start with realizing like, nothing is we’re very certain that things are 100% True, like vaccines work. 100%. True. The climate is changing, not to get political. My guess is that’s like 98 99%. True. A lot of stuff in performance is like maybe 70%. True. So what Steve and I tried to do is we try to look across different areas of research for patterns. Because if we see a similar pattern, or a similar theme, in psychology, in physiology and biology, in football coaches and running coaches, in management, professors are talking about the same thing, like Steve said, in their own language, but they’re all pointing at the same thing. That gives me a higher degree of confidence that this game is probably true. versus looking at one study with like you said, eight individuals in it, that had an interesting finding, and saying, like, Oh, this is the truth, like bullshit. No, it’s not like show me patterns.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, there’s gotta be consistency to it. And I think that goes back to even the investing or stock market analogy of, anything can win on any given day, but what you want to look at as long term dividends and resilience in the market and everything. So just encapsulate that. And I want you guys to kind of check me here if I’m wrong. But again, I think it’s worth mentioning, because it does set you guys apart in terms of the quality of the research you provide. And everything within the book is, it’s a leveraging of understanding how to do proper research, access to the channels, both open source, and more, I don’t want to say secure, but not Open Access articles, to the database. And then also not being afraid to leverage your social capital, which I think was an important piece that you mentioned with your friends and that you didn’t the Illuminati at bigger institutions, is, most people I think, don’t realize the access of information they have, should they just reach out for help. And I think this is leads into the next point of what I’d like you to touch on, Steve is because people typically don’t ask for help, whether it’s Hey, can you locate this article? Or hey, could you lend some advice? I’ve gone out on my own or hey, I even want to write a book, how can that lead even into the passion paradox and the problems that people face? where do we need to drop our pride and start to learn, like when we find ourselves within this massive imbalance or skew of this spectrum of, obsessive passion and harmonious passion? Can asking for help even influence that? Or what can people do?
Steve Magness
Yeah, I think it’s a great skill to have. I mean, and I think, you made the great point, is that it because we almost want to, like validate ourselves through like, expertise and feel like, oh, we have all these answers. A lot of times, we don’t ask for help, right? Because we sit here and think like, oh, Brad, or I could sit here and be like, Oh, I’m a performance expert, like people expect me to have, the answers to this. So if I go and ask people, like, they’re gonna, they’re gonna be like, Oh, who’s this fraud or this imposter? And I think that’s where it’s really important to like free yourself up from that, like, be vulnerable, except that you don’t know everything that you don’t have all the answers and once you do that, it lets you wear allows you to search for the truth, right to find the answers and, put the emphasis on like, Well, I’m just looking for like the best answer there is and Like, I don’t care if this guy thinks I’m an ad hitter or not, like I’m gonna staff after the answer. And once you do that, and you’re free yourself up to like, you’ll find that people are really open and willing to help. I mean, on this book alone, I remember we were trying to find the origins of the actual word passion, right? Because we knew like, oh, Passion of the Christ, like that means suffering, like it has a different meaning back then than it does now. Like, How did we go from like, pure suffering in terms of, Jesus Christ and all that stuff, to something that’s like seen as like, positive, we didn’t have the, we tried to do it, half heartedly ourselves, I guess. But I don’t have the research ability to look at the, how words evolve beyond like, just the dictionary or whatever. So we had to call experts who we had no idea who they were. And when we reach out to a bunch until we got, a couple email replies and a couple on the phone, and, hey, can you walk us through this, here’s what we’re trying to figure out. And, you know, these are world renowned researchers on that field, and they were more than happy to talk to us. So I think, well, you’re gonna get your feeling may be rejected, and your feelings hurt a little bit. Like, I think it’s being vulnerable, allowing yourself to reach out and ask for help. And if you do that, you’re going to get to the answer at a much quicker rate, versus you toiling away on your computer through Google Scholar or whatever it has you. which, is sometimes a lot of wasted time, and sometimes you’re gonna not be able to figure out the answer because it’s above your, your paygrade.
Brett Bartholomew
And I think you hit on an interesting point there in particular, and it’s relevant here, because ironically, I asked you both for help when I was getting ready to write conscious coaching, I was clueless in terms of, what route should I even go, especially after a publisher told me, a nobody is going to be interested in a book on communication and, relating to others, from from a strength coach, and I almost felt like a bit of impostor syndrome, even asking either of you, because one, we didn’t know each other, that well at the time. And then two, my thing with asking for help is I never want to bother people, I always feel like I’m being a bother. And that’s why I’m so big on reciprocity. And I almost feel bad, if I don’t immediately reciprocate in some way, shape or form for somebody, but I remember, how did I not ask you guys for help? I would have been in trouble, humor me for a bit on this. And this is just because there’s some overlap, I think, in our interests, but you mentioned the etymology of the word passion. what, when I was working on a course, recently, what I found, and it seems, there’s a variety of different ones is Spinoza and 1632. Or somewhere within his lifespan between that and 1632. And 1677. It was proposed that acceptable thoughts originated from reason were unacceptable. One’s kind of derived from passion, right? There’s this passion myth, but wasn’t the etymology originally from the Latin word like Passio, for suffering, you alluded to that is? Am I correct in that? Or where do you guys differentiate that in your book?
Steve Magness
Yeah. 100% Yeah, it comes from Passio, which is suffering, and you nailed it, like it comes all the way up. And it’s actually kind of fascinating because for the, and I might get some of this wrong, but it’s in the book. Because it’s not my expertise, but like, we talked to it, but for the first 1000 years or so, like, it meant suffering, like there was very little and specifically like suffering of Christ, and then it branched out to like, suffering in general. And then it branched out to lalmost like a feelings in added this emotional component to it. And Shakespeare used it along the way Geoffrey Chaucer used it along the way and it just kind of branched out and expanded from this purely negative thing to over time and into I think it was the late 1800s During the Romantic era where it adds like this love component, which is when you start first start seeing it as like a positive oh passionate in this component, but it wasn’t until actually I think the 1950s or 1960s When we started to see like find your passion or follow your passion take over which we know enough about modern times you can probably guess why that occurred. and since there it’s like expanding and exploding until its current state where it’s, all the rage, I guess.
Brett Bartholomew
Right. And what’s funny about that he mentioned with the love thing is love and suffering. Go ahead And then Hannah Van Gogh cut off his ear for a love interest, right. And so there’s an example of suffering but like Passion, passion isn’t always good for you. And it doesn’t mean that you’re going to find something that you’re inherently good at Brad, my remedial understanding of when I was trying to make sense of the research at Val Aranda, Dawn, and in kind of what you guys touch on in the book, is that, you know, when I was trying to distinguish obsessive passion, harmonious passion, to me, and again, I want you to correct me here, I always kind of understood it, or at least I took it as if the activity controls the person, you’re looking at obsessive passion to a degree. But if the person can control the activity, then it’s a little bit more of the harmonious passion, I know that super simplified and just trying to whittle it down. But where am I at? With that?
Brad Stulber
You’re like, 100%? There? I mean, that’s it. Like, what we write in the book is, do you control your passion? Or does your passion control you? and I think that, I think you hit the nail on that. Now, obviously, like, where the rubber meets the road is, it’s one thing to say, well control your passion, so it doesn’t control you. And it’s another thing to intellectually understand. And it’s a whole other thing to actually do it like to practice it. And that’s the worst. But that’s it. Like, in a nutshell, that’s if you’ve got control over your passion, and you’re not craving and you’re not in a cycle of craving, or needing, or always wanting or desiring, you’re in great shape. Yeah,
Brett Bartholomew
it’s so weird how it evolves too, though, right. I know, just speaking to a personal failure. And since I have two experts kind of on the line here, I’d be interested in your take on this. I remember when all I was doing was predominantly just being a strength coach, right, I’d write programs that go out and coach, and that was really the only things I had to worry about. The thing I was most passionate about other than coaching was, ust the training side of it, even my own you could get after it. It was this feeling of elation when, whenever you’re working with others or training yourself, and you could get really, really into it. Now as a business owner, and a coach and a speaker and an author, although nowhere the likes of you guys, but managing these other things. I’ve had a hard time controlling. I hate desk work, I hate it. But I do have a passion for seeing something grow. And right now a business that conveys a message, right? Like this message of, hey, communication, and relating is important. It’s been kind of thrown around in coaching, but nobody’s ever really dug in, I want to do it. But I’ve had it pull me almost apart from, there’s nights where it’s 9:30. And I haven’t gotten my own training in, and I’m sitting here and I told my wife the other night, it’s funny, I go, nothing would ever get in the way of my training. But now I feel like I have this mission. And I’m passionate about it with business. But I just get distracted so easily between the two. It’s almost like two lovers. And They’re both humiliating to a degree. They’re both intoxicating to a degree, they’re both infuriating to a degree, Is that common? I mean, do you get to a point in life where now your passions are no longer even singular? It’s deciding between them and being able to prioritize?
Brad Stulber
Yeah, I’ll let Steve take this one. But I just wanted to comment, I know how to get you back on track. And what listeners might not know is that Brett writes my programming for me, he sees the spreadsheet. And it’s not going to be long before I’m putting more weight than Brett and. That’s going to be a kick in the you know what, to get
Brett Bartholomew
this if you want to, if you want to get me back on track just
Brad Stulber
more than Brett, I still got like seven rounds to go. But I’m working my way off.
Brett Bartholomew
It is true. And it’s kind of like Billy Madison, where I’m sitting there and who was it? It was the character that’s got the lipstick and he’s crossing names off the list. I sit there and look at your PR sheet. And every time it would climb is five to 10 pounds. I just cross off another name as I get closer to Brad Stolberg. Jokes aside, Steve. And I know I probably didn’t explain what I was talking about. Well, but would you mind?
Steve Magness
Sure. 100%. I mean, I think that’s the thing is like for people like yourself, who’s obviously a pusher and most, coaches are pushers as well, we like to get things done. Like we’re not content. That’s relatively normal, I think, at least in my world. And I don’t think it’s necessarily a bad thing. Like, there’s a huge benefit to being able to go all in almost and be doing all this work until it’s like 9:30 and you step back, you’re like, oh, man, it’s 9:30 where the day to go. I didn’t even get to do this other thing that I love to do. And I think the key there is, that’s not a bad thing. As long as you’re aware you’re making that choice, right? So if that happened for months on end and you didn’t get your training in and now your health is going down, then it becomes is a bad thing. But if you’re saying, hey, I’m launching this business or I’m really in crunch time to promote it, and like this has to take preference over everything else. And your training goes by the wayside a little bit, that’s okay. As long as you can, step back, and, come back to it at all. I mean, it’s almost like, you’ve got to get really good at being aware and prioritizing where that passion goes, right? I’m, the same, like at certain points, I’m all in on my coaching, right, and I’m just going crazy on it. And my training gets neglected, or during launch week of a book, it’s everything else gets neglected. And I make that now, I make that choice and say, All right, everything else is gonna get neglected. That’s all right. But a lot of times I’ll set timeframes for, like how long this can happen before, I’ve got to get back to where it’s, okay, like this other thing that I really value in my life. I gotta give it some love too.
Brett Bartholomew
And I love that you touched on that within the book, this idea that there’s this illusion of living a perfectly balanced life and, really passion coupled with self awareness Trumps that balance any day, what I tell people, and I’ve said it to the listeners and in the courses, I look at it as there’s no such thing as balanced what there are seasons, right, just like there’s in season, offseason, there’s different periods within athletics, and even within the corporate world, right, they have first quarter, second quarter, third quarter fourth, like, there’s all these different pushes they have to make, and the way and you could almost look at this as like, well, you’re giving yourself an out. But when I’ve looked at it as hey, I’m in, essentially your two or three of starting my own business. So what I’ve told my wife is what I’ve got to come to terms with is right now, I’m not going to be hitting PRs myself in the gym, I’m basically in season, it’s the playoffs, I’m trying to get somewhere, really locked in. And since it’s just me, I’m the quarterback, the wide receiver if you want on the pitcher, and the outfielder in the middle. So I’ve almost tried giving myself permission to be like, Hey, dude, you know what, some days, you’re not going to be able to train the way you want and get under the load that you want. Some days, you’re gonna have to work out the distinction between the two B and training, you have this specified goal, right and working out meaning you’re basically you’re moving right, you’re trying to get some stuff done. You’re lifting or running, whatever your proclivity is, but it’s not necessarily like you’re not out there, like getting ready for a competition, you’re just kind of checking the box. And I have had to accept that I’ve had to say, You know what, I’m always going to train with intention, I’m always gonna have a clear goal. But I’m not always going to be able to push it the same way that I did when I had nothing else to worry about. And that’s part of the Passion paradox to right, people just letting go of this idea that they always have to be all the way up or all the way down, or that perfect balance exists. Talk to me a little bit more about how your book touches on that in particular, and how it can help those pushers out there as you turn it. Brad, sorry. what I really want. It’s like the Joker in The Dark Knight. I’m gonna give you guys a stick and let you fight over who’s gonna talk, Brad, go ahead, hit this one, but
Brad Stulber
you’re training me man, I’m gonna win. I’m going strong. I love this, because I’m not actually that strong. But I think that you’ve got really good insight into that and balances and illusion. Our culture sets us up to think that we can be great at everything. It really does. I’m going to be the best lifter, I’m going to be the best business owner, I’m going to be the best husband, I’m going to be the best coach, I’m going to be the best writer. No, you’re not you’re going to be mediocre all of those things. And really sad because you’re going to be judging yourself for failing across the board. So the paradox there is like, no, that kind of balance makes no sense. What makes sense is like you said, to have a season to go all in on something. And then to be aware that you’re doing it so that you can make trade offs. And when the time comes to switch, go on and on something else. So balance is great. Over the course of a lifetime balance in any given day or week. Yeah, not as great. Especially not if you’re trying to do like eight things really well. Really hard to do. Like, I think that you can do one thing really well at a time. And I’m so glad that you mentioned your wife a few times. It’s so important when people are pushers, to talk to the important people in their lives and to set expectations about what’s going on. I say maybe one thing because I think that like you can do family and something else, so long as you give family some clear expectations so that there’s not resentment going on. And you have to, kick yourself in it where it hurts a few times and get your shit together. or if it’s going over, like a great example of that is I’ve got a one year old at home. And, you know, Steve mentions like, book launch, everything else gets neglected, I can neglect everything else. But Theo and my wife the other day, like she gave it to me straight, like she needed 10 minutes in the morning, so she can get ready before taking them to daycare. And I was at the computer working on book launch stuff. And like, Theo is kind of like at the other side of the room not being so happy. And she came in and she’s like, practice what you preach. And you’re right, shut down the computer, and I went over to be with him. Um, so I guess I share that story. Because like, again, it’s hard. That’s the thing about passion, like, you get swept up into it. And it’s easy to just forget about everything else. So it’s really important to maintain that self awareness. And a great way to do it is to talk to someone that you love and make sure that they’re there to give you that kick in the junk when you need it. Because, we’d like to think that self awareness is all about ourselves. But one great way to get self awareness is actually to have people that you trust call you out, when you kind of lose it. That can be really helpful.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, I think that is something that we could dive into in a whole nother podcast of getting people around you that can call you out and kind of be these regulators, right, these people that because I think that that even for me is something that has led into a passion paradox of my own, is I expect myself not only to be everything, but I try to be everything that I view other people aren’t. And I think really where that started, when I’ve done some reflecting was in high school, I just had some friends that were really flaky. And I remember what that felt like, I remember what that felt like to make a commitment and have a plan. You know, I’m somebody that I’m pretty excitable, and then people just back out. And it never made sense to me how some people could do that, and all kinds of commitments in life, then never kind of feel any thing, just kind of whatever. Like for me if I told you guys, or anybody, I’m gonna do something, and I don’t do that, that keeps me up at night. And the next day, I’m trying to make that right. And I think finding friends that say, Hey, dude, like, you don’t have to be all things to everybody and having some people that kept me in check. And Brad, you’ve been one of them. Just saying, hey, I’ve told you in the past, and I’ve admitted on this podcast, our field doesn’t really do a good job with the whole money thing, right? So I was stretching myself thin trying to appease everybody, I’d answer every DM I do this, I’ve talked about this plenty on the podcast. And you were like, Hey, dude, you need to really quit worrying about charging for your time. Like, there’s always going to be people that are going to bitch about stuff. you’re a professional professionals charge for their time, like let her rip, you know what I mean? And people that really value your work are going to have no trouble doing that. And you almost said it in a way like I’ve been very defensive of my field be like, Yeah, but you don’t get it. It’s a very unique field. And you said it, and kind of this matter of fact, I don’t give a fuck away. Like, this is just the reality of the situation. And I told my wife, I was just like, dude, like, I didn’t call my wife, dude. But I said, Liz, I go, Brad said something. And it was just like, kind of really concrete, pure and almost rush, but like, so impactful. And I have quit apologizing that I’m like, Hey, this is what it is, this is my time, it’s valuable, I’d be happy to pay for your time as well, if you need the advice, if you ask for this. And so you were a huge help there. And you are an example of that friend, Steve, is there anybody kind of professionally or personally in your life that has really helped you kind of overcome your own, form of the Passion paradox? Or has even made you a little bit more aware of it?
Steve Magness
Yeah, I mean, one of those is Brad, I guess he does that for everybody. But like, he, as co authors on a couple books now, like, it keeps us in check, right? It keeps me in check where if, I’m, not doing what I’m supposed to, or I’m drifting off and like, paying attention too much to this thing, or going down the weeds of like being especially like, all in on social media and like on my computer and all that stuff, he’ll call me out, but at the same time, I think what is really good, is at several times, I’ve told Brad, Hey, I’ve got this going on. And, I probably won’t respond to anything you send me on, like books stuff, because like, I do not have the bandwidth to like, go over this. And he’s totally is like, Alright, got it. Like, you’re good, right. And that’s the power of that friendship there. And, I’ve got a couple other friends who are similar to that, who will call me on stuff or, even in the coaching world, right, where you’re responsible for, athletes development, and all that stuff it’s great to have someone call you out and be like, Hey, Steve, you might not be aware of this, but kind of slacked off and like this aspect of coaching, right? And that happens, we’re all human I’m not some perfect coaches. gonna, design everything and like communicate in the best way even though I’ve read Brett’s books or book, I’m not going to be perfect all the time, and I’m human, and I’m gonna mess that up. But to have people who will call that out is fantastic. And I think part of that is on me as a person, if someone calls me out and says, Hey, you’re really sucking at this, are you really not doing a good job of this? Like, my reaction can’t be the human reaction of like defensiveness and being oh, man, yeah, What are you talking about? I’m doing this great. Because if I do that, as soon as I do that, then that sends a signal to my friend that like, oh, man, like don’t bring up any criticism to Steve because like, he’s not going to respond well. And then if that happens, like I don’t get a true view of the world, which is, a problem.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, I think you answered that beautifully. Guys. Is there anything else that you think just offhand that people get wrong about passion? Now, granted, the whole book is about this. So don’t feel the need to go into that because I want to make sure and by the way, where can people find this book? Where can they access it? What forms can they access it and I just want to make sure this is clear for everybody’s
Brad Stulber
Thanks for asking, Brett. So right now we’re recording this podcast, and I’m not sure when you’re going to drop it. So the book is coming out in like two weeks from when we’re recording this. So if you drop the podcast now, and listeners are listening, you can preorder the book from Amazon, Barnes and Nobles, as well as your local bookstore. And then if you’re listening to this, once the book has come out, same thing, you can get it anywhere. So it’s online. It’s at local bookstores, is on audiobook and on Kindle. Although I must say I recommend the hardcover because there are passionate practices at the end of each chapter. And I think that feedback I got from the first book that Steve and I did was that people really like being able to go back to those things. Yeah.
Brett Bartholomew
And this book will drop people are listening, they will listen to this on, it’ll be March 18. By all the time you guys are tuning in, so they’ll have a chance to preorder it’s still right,
Brad Stulber
yeah, I mean, it comes out March 19. So by then just get the book, you know, go to your bookstore, or at least consider getting it
Steve Magness
and we have some really cool bonuses if you buy it, or if you preorder it or get it, I think on launch day. And you can check that out at our website, which is www.passionparadoxbook.com. You do that or reach out to or look at us on on Twitter, which I’m @SteveMagnus Brad’s @BStulberg. And we have some cool giveaways. Just that complement the book as well.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, and the all these things are gonna be included in the show notes. So those of you that listen regularly, the deal, you won’t have to worry about getting a notepad or anything like that, just go to the show notes. This is also if you’re on my newsletter at art of coaching, you’re going to have a direct access to this, the Amazon link is going to be there if you’re not on the newsletter, I really don’t know at this point in time, what you’re waiting for. Get On the newsletter,
Brad Stulber
You get Brett’s wisdom for free time get in on the newsletter. Funny because we always end these conversations, you know, by the book, here’s where you can find us. Here’s the giveaways. I get on the newsletter. And it can feel kind of ironic, because we’re talking about like passion and not being too external. so I think it’s really important to come back to the fact that yeah, of course, I want you to read the book I worked really fucking hard on it. Steve did to it’s our best work. And we think it can help you. In in, and I think like, that’s what’s that’s what’s so great about our friendship, Brett and being on this podcast and your community. Is that yeah, of course, we want to do well, that’s the paradox. And like, it’s really neat to be contributing to these evolving conversations, on things like communication and things like passion and things like burnout. Because it’s important, and I know that I’ve made so many mistakes, that are all in my work. And if I can help people, sidestep a few of those then great job well done.
Brett Bartholomew
Yeah, without a question. And, I mean, that’s its own paradox, right? like everybody in this field, whether it’s executives, whether it’s athletes, whether it’s coaches, and I define coaches, anybody that really is leading if you’re connecting with people educating communicating you’re coach, it’s funny, that’s a passion paradox element in and of itself, right. Everybody’s got this desire to learn and we’ve got to take in as much information so I hope everybody heard what they said when you get the hard cover version of the book, you actually have these tactical exercises like I cannot say this enough, we no longer live in the information age. You live in the transformation age meaning like you have to put skin in the game, you have to do some shit to actually make this make sense. So the one thing I challenge all of you listening not to do is do not just get this book, read it, listen to it, whatever, throw it in a corner and be done with it, like take the next step, go through the exercises, and then make sure if it brought you value, tell somebody about the damn book, and, Brad’s right, it takes skin in the game. And it’s hard, guys, anything I missed that you want to touch on briefly and leave these folks with?
Brad Stulber
No, I mean, all I would say is thanks for having us on the show. And then, as you alluded to, like, I’m super fortunate to be your friends. I know a lot about mental performance. I don’t know much about programming Brett coaches me so like, it’s just really nice to be in this conversation sharing some of my work. So a big smiling ear to ear and I’ve got my my Zen hands in the prayer position. A big thank you for all that you do for the performance community?
Steve Magness
Yeah, I’ll just say that I think it’s awesome that you’re doing this podcast, I think it’s amazing the resources you got coming out. And I’m not just saying that because I’ve listened to it and then I’ve read your book, I think twice now. And that’s what’s cool is like people in this community are like putting information out there helping us all get better. And as you said, like the information is all here and available now. And it’s like up to us to decide like how good we want to be at what we do and most of that is in taking action on that information. So just thanks for putting out information that I take action on. So it’s awesome.
Brett Bartholomew
Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Everybody else again, check the show notes, check the links. Everything will be linked for you guys and reach out to these people. They Brad and Steve both have a tremendous amount of knowledge and they’re gracious folks. We need more of them like them in the community. Guys. Thanks again.