In Art Of Coaching Podcast

On Episode 15 of the Art of Coaching podcast I am joined by industry-leading strength coach Tim Caron. Tim is the former Head Football Strength and Conditioning Coach at Army West Point where he helped Army beat Navy for the first time in 15 years.

Notice I say former head coach. That is because after reaching what most coaches consider the “Zenith” of their career, Tim decided to eschew the “coaching system” to start his own facility, Allegiate. The reason: because the coaching system is broken.

Tune in to find out why Tim thinks the coaching community needs to stop asking for free advice, start putting skin in the game and why “leaving the system” might be the best thing you can do.

  • How do strength coaches limit themselves
  • Having mentors beyond the field
  • The importance of monetizing your time
  • How the coaching industry in perpetuating the belief that coaches should give advice for free
  • Why do strength coaches have such contested emotions about money
  • How cash strapped strength coaches can get advice without being disrespectful

Learn more about and connect with Tim Caron here

Head over to to get the latest updates on seminars, content and more.


Brett Bartholomew  0:00  

Hey, a quick touch point before we get into this week’s episode, I want to give you a forewarning this is definitely gonna get some strong reactions, on account of many of you. Money is something that continues to be a hot topic and anything coaching related, teaching related, leadership related in general. And there’s if you ask 10 different people about it, you got 10 different strength coaches in a room specifically, there’d probably be a few disagreements, there’s bound to be some people taking to Twitter. 


But at the end of the day, this podcast is about putting some topics out there that are typically dodged not really talked about in a forthright, just upfront manner. And really, we want to create these kinds of discussions and dialogues around things that make us uncomfortable. It’s how we improve. So no matter what your take on this is, just stick with it. Listen to what Coach Caron has to say. These are things that even I felt very differently about five years ago, maybe even three years ago. And I’ve just kind of evolved and the things I’ve gone through good, bad and the ugly, it’s made me really think about some things a lot differently. So listen in. The last part is I have some freebies for you guys. 


One, if you want a reading list, I literally have 100 of my favorite books, 100 of my favorite research articles, just pure resources. This is all free stuff. If you’re in the United States, take your phone out right now. And all one word, all lowercase, just type in reading list, and text that to 44222 I’ll repeat that literally get to the text message, where you’d go to the phone number and type in a buddy’s phone number. You type the numbers 44222. And then the part where you leave the message, right reading list. All one word, all lowercase. All right, if you’re outside of the United States, just go to you can find the resources section. If that’s someplace you’ve never been, you’ll find a ton of freebies there. Things that you can download really easy. 


The last part is on that reading list, by the way that reading list is applicable whether you’re an athletic trainer, physical therapist, chiropractor, strength coach, personal trainer, or even just a performance or health enthusiast in general, it’s going to have some of my favorite books, things that you should definitely start off with. But also if you’re on the newsletter, you are going to get an advanced preorder of a book that I was fortunate enough to read early, get a preview copy of it is easily my favorite book. So far, all of 2019 not going to tell you what it is. That’s what the newsletters for. 


So if you haven’t joined the newsletter already, go to, you guys are going to get a direct link to the pre order list. And you’re also going to get access to some other freebies and insights as well before the book even goes on sale. So again, that’s only going to be on my newsletter. It’s coming out this week. So make sure that you guys are on that you’ll get access and an early preorder to that and I have the author’s coming on in an upcoming episode. So the newsletters are where you guys are going to learn all about that. There’s also going to be something else announced here very soon guys that I’ve been working on for a long time that I think you’re going to be really excited about. I want your feedback on so free reading list newsletter, free preorder and some other little bonus giveaways on the newsletter. Make sure that you sign up tell a friend tell a friend tell a friend that’s it for me. DJ dropped the beat


What’s going on everybody? Welcome to another episode of The Art of coaching Podcast. I’m excited today I got my friend and strength coach, Tim Caron. Tim, what’s going on man?


Tim Caron  4:32  

How you doing? Thank you for having me. 


Brett Bartholomew  4:34  

Yeah, no doubt that what we’re going to talk about and Tim and I were actually talking offline a little bit before this podcast about some things and just how coaches can help more individuals how they can get involved, but like actually the onus the hard nosed truth about the onus on coaches to to invest and and live up to like this lifelong learner thing that we always talk about. So Tim, before we get into the topic today, and it’s got to b, I think this is going to be one of the most honest, hard hitting topics we’ve had. And it’s going to challenge people on probably people are going to feel conflicted when they get off or quit listening to this, or the episodes finished, rather. 


But before we get into some of these things, can you give us some background because man, you’ve done a lot in your career, and what you’re doing is super unique. And you’ve kind of created a whole new kind of route that is really unique, and I think helping a lot of people. So can you give some background now


Tim Caron  5:27  

yeah, I spent a really long time being a college strength coach, a bunch of stops Georgia Tech, USC, Southern California, and then actually army West Point, all the way from a GA at Springfield College to head strength coach at army, West Point and over football. And before that, just the whole gambit of internships, like everyone’s path, like a good long stretch of unpaid work on the path to becoming a paid coach. So having that like, full like platform of starting off as like everyone else, as this intern, grinding during the process and moving all around the country, trying to get as many as much experience, as much network as possible to the point of reaching that zenith of being head strength coach in college 


And then getting to the point where it’s like, Alright, let’s take that next proverbial step in life. And let’s try to make this a commercial business and a couple of athletes and myself got together and opened up a gym with the concept of where athletes go to train when they’re done playing, and just really continuation of life after sport, where we’ve taken that same motif of college strength conditioning, but applying it to General pop. And the beautiful thing about it is answering that question of, hey, if I’m done playing and I know the standard of training, I have it, where can I go? And then on top of if it, this is really an effective way of training for athletes, is it applicable for General pop. 


And so far, the answer has been definitively Yes. And that’s what we’ve been working on. So we opened up the gym a year and a half ago and the name collegiate and it’s been going strong. And the beautiful thing about it is we’re learning about how to train people and still using some time honored principles of training, what we learned through college, but we’re also learning how to be business owners and understanding the entrepreneurial aspect of it all, and really just building out something that I think is unique and special.


Speaker 1  7:22  

Yeah, and I think you touched on some key points there, one of which, I love the term you use the zenith, you work at the zenith of intercollegiate athletics. And you mentioned your time at West Point, which is unique in itself because of everything they do from a leadership standpoint and beyond but even looking at home, really a kind of those brands like USC, you worked there during a time where they were ranked number one in the country and you worked in integration with nutrition, injury rehabilitation, there’s a lot of coaches that really kind of grow up wanting to do that and be at that zenith and that pinnacle. 


Brett Bartholomew  7:53  

But more interestingly, I think this is why you stand out is in you’re bringing flashbacks of LA Mack. Man living back there, I can hear the cars going behind you. But like, it’s funny, because I remember when I left collegiate athletics as a GA, mainly because there’s almost impossible to get a job. And then another job in the private sector came, there’s so many people that were like, Oh, you’re gonna leave this, I can’t believe you’re gonna do this, you’re never gonna get back in. And, so I commend you for like taking that step of being somebody that’s like, yeah, I really see him as two of the same, they’re not really that different. But there are a lot of coaches out there that I think limit themselves in their opportunities as professionals by not considering those routes, like what led you to that


Tim Caron  8:34  

Looking around the room and seeing your own personal future, in college strength conditioning, the things that were like, continuously frustrating. And I think everybody’s universal, that they deal with bureaucracy, hypocrisy, like, whatever like thing that’s generally frustrating. I went through personally and then asking the hard question of like, is this the way it’s supposed to be? Or is this just the way I think it should be? And then from there going, alright, could it be a better path? And is there Do I have a lot more control of my destiny, and I just saw the vision of like, it’s going to be more so if I really want to control the outcome or control the way I do this the way I want to do it, it’s going to be outside about, I guess, a public institution or working in college or pro. And having the opportunity to leave and really set the parameters of how I want to do this was something that was really appealing to me


Speaker 1  9:28  

it’s rare, man. It’s rare for sure. And I think you and I connect on several fronts on this stuff, because, we first started chatting when you were still in the team setting and I had kind of just started my journey kind of going out independently. And it’s a big reason why I created like an online course and we’re doing an event on career management as a strength coach, because it’s just, there’s a lot of unknowns and what ifs and it brings me to the first like, true official question I want to ask you, what are a few of the top ways you think strength coaches are really limiting themselves as professionals and not even necessarily at the jobs they look at or considered but like, even in the way they behaved, the things they value kind of, just kind of these old kind of standards and mantras that maybe are actually limiting us to being taken more seriously. And being able to even help more people.


Tim Caron  10:13  

I think social media and I think the perpetuating the stereotypes of what we are, I personally find this, like, the limiting view in which like, alright, like, Hey, I’m a big strong guy, I’m going to be that and I’m going to just just explode that in terms of all mediums and turn social media, my portrayal to my athletes, my portrayal to my coaches, and a lot of ways it helps in getting people like in the door, it helps people in terms of getting that like, quote, unquote, job of like that football coach going, oh, man, like, that’s what I want that big, strong dude to do this for me. But then the other side of it is, it’s like, opening up autobody shop and saying, the only tool I want to use is a hammer, and get it leverage yourself and what your strengths are as much as you possibly can. 


But then when you get into that job, if you limit yourself to only that, are you really doing the job you should be for your athletes. And that’s where I think the biggest problem is, is where we really need to look at, one like these like images that we portray to the world, but then two not limiting ourselves to that exclusively and saying, in order for me to evolve, in order for me to provide the best possible service to the people that are paying me to do it, you know, I need to be more than just that, like, quote, unquote, stereotype. And I just see now like social media is even putting more of a bigger magnifying, I think we know what gets more likes, 


I think we know it gets more of a notoriety, and we’re kind of putting their chips in that basket as much as possible to get as much exposure as possible. But then it comes out, like what happens when you get that circumstance where not everyone can just squat bench. And not everyone just wants to get strong, you have other things that we need to provide and do for our members and our athletes. And I hate to say it, but like, if you just constantly portray yourself as this one thing, and you’re saying that this is the only end all be all, like, everyone just needs a squat bench, like you’re really limiting what we could be doing? And absolutely what we should be doing.


Speaker 1  12:21  

How much of this you think has to do with people not having mentors, kind of beyond the field? Like, of course, they have people that can mentor them in terms of athletic development principles, and how to write programming and lead sessions on the floor and what have you to a degree, but how much of this you think has to do with people that just like, us getting in this single mindset and single frame of reference has to do with, not seeking out the right mentors or not looking at the bigger picture around these things. 


Tim Caron  12:46  

Yeah, I mean, how many times people are telling you like a contrary and thought, I believe for any given day? And not like from this lens of like, Oh, it’s a football coach, and he just told me he needs to do something different? It’s are you really evaluating why that like person you’re working for? Or that athlete is telling you to do something different? Or you’re just becoming more rounded in your common, already believed notion of what we’re doing? And then are you surrounding yourself with alternative thoughts and views of like training or philosophy or just the overall aspect of just living in this profession? Absolutely. I think it’s centered on that, like, we’re the product of the people that we hang out with most. 


And then we’re also surround ourselves with people that either validate us and completely continue on what we want to be true. But does that make us as comprehensive as effective as we possibly can be? And I think, from my perspective, no, but honestly, like, the other end is, there’s some really successful people who are going that level of one’s gonna continuously do what I want to do, and I’m only gonna surround myself with people who perpetuate that notion. It’s the problem with this whole kind of thing. I really from the heart.


Speaker 1  14:02  

Well, and like, without a doubt, you’ve been a mentor to a lot of people, I think if anybody put your name out there, and everybody kind of looks to you, because they know you have such a wide range of just skills and knowledge about a wide range of topics that came firsthand, and you learned the hard way, and so given that, given the fact that you’re a mentor to people, how do you personally balance the time between, like people reaching out to you and saying, hey, Coach, can I have some of your time? Or, Hey, can I do this? Or hey, can you meet for coffee? Or, hey, can we do that? How do you balance that with the demands and the realities of you running Allegiant and you coaching and you having a family, where’s that time crunch? And how has that affected you over the years as you’ve even transferred into this role and having more? I don’t know people having more access to you and just any other factor? That makes sense? What I’m asking?


Tim Caron  14:51  

well, it’s been completely different contexts being in a commercial business of now every minute of the day is said Actually monetized. So the value of asking me to meet or asking me for guidance is different than when I was in college where you’re mostly just kind of working, it’s like, almost like a socialist regime. And we’re like, no matter what you do, above and beyond of, like the Call of Duty is not really going to guarantee you any more wage or anything else in terms of value from your employer. So as someone calling you, or email and you’re like, yeah, definitely, I got time. Versus now it’s like, every time or money I spent discussing or going over things, outside of the premise of my businesses, time taking away from making money. 


But in terms of how you prioritize that, and how you create a hierarchy, like, there’s a high level need of importance, and then it works its way down. You can go the traditional, like football coach of God, family, football, you can go, what’s the most important things in terms of a business and, hey, at the end of the month, at the end of the year, we need to be a profitable business. And we got to prioritize and allocate our time towards that, and everything outside of that is either a pass, or hey, is this gonna make more money for the time I’m spending than what I’m currently doing? And, when someone asks you for your time, you have to have this evaluation of that, like, are you potentially losing money? Versus is this something that’s going to directly benefit your business or your practice, and there’s just like yin and yang approach. And what I find is the people that just generally ask for either them confirming something they want to be true, or the people that are not willing to pay for something like your expertise, those are generally people who aren’t worth your time. And


Brett Bartholomew  16:45  

But Tim playing devil’s advocate, because there’s somebody right now listen to this, and would love to reach out to you or somebody that feels like they’ve given a bunch of time to people, and they’re like, Well, why should I have to pay? And you talked about it already, right? You talked about, like, the fact that you have to run that commercial business. It’s centered on helping people, but how do you respond to somebody that let’s say, I called you, you said, you have to pay for my time. I’m somebody with no money. And I’m like, Wow, man, like, I thought your focus was on giving back to others. I thought, all I wanted was to buy a cup of coffee, how do you deal with that? How do you deal with these people that are so used to getting things for free? And this small world of coaching where everybody’s a buddy, everybody knows each other? We’re all we’ve talked about in the podcast before, like, we’re all service service based people like use the term servant, but I think service base, how do you deal with people that are disappointed or upset that you’re asking, you’re making a point like, hey, yeah, I’m happy to help you. But man, there’s a cost associated.


Tim Caron  17:43  

First first level would be, we have several interns coming through our facility. And there’s a people who are getting in here every morning at 5am. And staying all the way to one, five days a week. And in exchange for their work and service, I give them complete access to all the information I have, versus we have paying members coming through here paying a monthly rate at our gym, training under our tutelage and doing our program and using our equipment and using our expertise and our coaching, to leverage themselves to become better. And it’s either two routes, either you’re paying for it directly, or you’re giving up your time, in exchange for information. 


And the people that want that without either giving up their time, or actually financial compensation. Are you saying that your time or your need or want for that is more valuable than theirs? And that’s the way I look at it, it’s either you’re paying for it, or you’re earning it. And if you don’t want to do either of those routes, I gotta be honest with you, it’s not fair to the people who are paying in some way. And you’re saying at some level that you don’t want to have that same approach you want to have be able to bypass that altogether? And which is it’s got to come down to that, you’re either paying for it or you’re earning. And if you don’t, aren’t willing to do either. And you’re asking for it. The question is, are you really in the right for doing that?


Brett Bartholomew  19:11  

Yeah, I think that’s a good point. Like you’re they’re paying for it, or you’re earning it. I think, like, I It’s interesting. I don’t know, where do you think this expectation, especially in our community came from where people feel like, oh, Tim’s on social media, I’ll DM him I should be able to get a response right now. Where does that expectation come from that like, we should all just kind of like, drop whatever we’re doing and no matter what, like be able to drive 45 minutes to meet somebody for an hour and a half coffee and do it. Did we do something to perpetuate that or what do you think were was the kind of impetus or the belief


Tim Caron  19:47  

from this apprenticeship slash internship model that we’ve set up as an industry where like, in order to get in, you got to do free labor, and I think a lot of people will have looked at it in terms of, well, within exchange for that, you need to put yourself out there and you need to network and you do give up your time, and that should be received with open arms. And I think a lot of ways, it absolutely is, and our interns reach out to me with the same premise and, the expectations, like, I’ll give you everything I got, but you’re gonna have to give us something in return your time, and you’re gonna have to give us your just absolute heart and soul and become the best possible coach. And there’s two parts is this like, is that a marriage of convenience, it’s an idea of mutual beneficial relationship of, you’re gonna give us people boots on the ground, coaches who want to work hard, make connections with our members and athletes, 


In exchange for, we’re gonna give you all of our information, and we’re gonna give you all of our time to make us best possible coach, but from the other hand, is, in order to get that you need to open up the conversation, and you need to go out there and extend yourself. And now flash forward a couple of years later, or a bunch of years later, where the expectation is, in order to get in the field, you got to work for free. It’s a everything else should be given for free. And like, Hey, I’m not going to give you anything in return. But my expectations, you give me everything you got with no compensation from that level. And I think that’s kind of the the thesis or the orientation, like the origins of this is that expectation of free labor. And we should just give out everything else for free.


Brett Bartholomew  21:29  

Which is interesting, because no doubt, I mean, I’m sure I know I can look you up and I have on, just being your friend, I’ve looked and preparing for this, it was cool to watch some of your old stuff on YouTube and just look at stuff you put out there. What’s even more intriguing to me is sometimes people like you, and so many others have put a tremendous out there for free. Or they could do their research and probably get their question answered, just by digging around a little bit. So how do you deal with that somebody that maybe reaches out in the question, they have this specific question they have, you’ve answered and another medium


And obviously, the easy answer could be well, I share that link, but what we really know is they want you, they don’t want the link, they want you, how do you address that situation? And is that the reality? Most of the time? Do you find that the majority of people reaching out to you, you’ve already kind of put that information out there somewhere? Like if so, how do we get these people to do more research to do more due diligence, and make sure they’re coming in prepared more for the standpoint that like, that’s just a good professional skill, right? 


Like you wouldn’t apply for a job and not do research on what that employer needs? Or is looking for. Right? And when we’re trying to really enhance the professionalism, of strength and conditioning in the field as a whole and get people to be more autonomous and respectful. How do we shift that? So like, I guess there’s two questions there. One, is that a reality? Do people often reach out to you without even doing any semblance of homework stuff that you put out there first, and then two, even if somebody doesn’t have the money to pay or whatever, how else can they reciprocate, say they can’t intern for you because they live in Massachusetts, and they don’t have a whole lot of cash? How can we get around that and give them some options?


Tim Caron  23:13  

 Well, I think it is a reality. And I think that’s the reality in a lot of professions. What we always go through early is the why in our internship of why you’re here. And the reality is, is a lot of us are just hobbyists to turn this into a profession, or had aspirations of turning this into a profession. Like, Hey, I like to work out, like sports, let me see if I can pursue this as a profession or vocation. And then as it starts to grow and manifest, and you start, poking around and finding someone who maybe has a little bit of a following you just throw it out there, and maybe you’re not really having much expectations of this person will respond. 


Or maybe you do and maybe, maybe you really didn’t think through the question you’re gonna ask, but I would say this in regards to, how do we change that, you know, like, you know, it’s the painful like, the reality of the more you put yourself out there, the more you’re gonna get that and the more you’re gonna get like these kind of like redundant and very generic or honestly a lot of times people my opinion, just want confirmation of what they’re doing. Which is like you don’t need me to validate what you’re doing if you think it’s right go do it. If as opposed to you’re really trying to like honestly filter and find the best possible answer you’re gonna do a lot more due diligence and do a lot more homework and do a lot more investigation probably never get asked by those guys as 


the people that are just casually going through and the people that just maybe have a little bit of an interest but maybe aren’t fully understanding of the work that’s actually gonna go into this to make this profession. Those are the people asking the questions and so I don’t think you ever gonna get away from that. I think it’s always good to Part of this.


Brett Bartholomew  25:01  

Yeah, if I’m hearing you correctly, kind of what you’re saying is that people that typically want stuff for free and more importantly, have an expectation of that, and are not going to find creative ways around that or to make it happen, or people that are generally going through the motions in their careers to begin with. I mean, is that a fair thing? Or kind of recap of what you’re saying? 


Tim Caron  25:20  

Yeah, I think so. Absolutely.


Brett Bartholomew  25:23  

I think that’s a hard hitting thing. And this is why I said this podcast is going to, it’s gonna, there’s going to be a sense of conviction with some people that maybe feel like, well, that’s not the case. It’s our job to spread this information. What’s funny, though, is usually the people doing that are the ones that don’t usually share a time anyway. Or if they do, they’re well compensated in some other regard where, that’s kind of built into a model of theirs. It’s fascinating why so many people have this anger, anxiety and ambivalence around the concept of money. And that was kind of the next thing that I was going to ask you. Why do you think that train coaches seem to have contested emotions about money? We’re running around saying we don’t do it for the money getting mad if something costs money? What is it about? I mean, do you think it’s just kind of like that Aesop’s fable, sour grapes kind of thing? Or what is it about money that just makes our industry so crazy?


Tim Caron  26:18  

The perception of value, the idea of like, what am I going to get in return for this? Like, from my perspective, I always looked at it like, the more I invest, the more return on investment I get. So every single cent I ever put into my own continuing education, I’ve seen come back in terms of raises or bonuses. And it just always worked out in their favor, like I was able to increase my level of execution of my job, like tenfold, every single year by going to x conference or reading these books. And then it showed by me getting a promotion or going up to a higher level in position, and getting compensated reflect. So I always had this like thought of invest your money into yourself, no matter what the perceived costs is, if values there, you should go out there and seek it. And most people don’t think that way. And in my experience, in terms of working college transitioning, 


And I was one of the few whoever staff I worked under, who never really invested into or invested into myself, and a lot of people are just content, and they’re like, Hey, I got my program I like doing and I’m gonna keep doing it. And if a some information comes my way, I’ll gladly take it, but I’m not gonna seek it out or invest any money into it. So when it comes down to like, Oh, here’s a guy who crosses my path on Instagram, or other like things, and I’m like, gosh, you I’ll just ask him a question. And I’m not going to expect to pay for that at all. I think that’s where the issue comes from, is the perception of value of like, well, what am I going to get in return, most people don’t look at it in terms of if I invest in myself, I’ll see a return on investment down the road. They’re looking at it as like, I got a good idea of what I’m doing. I don’t necessarily want to be that much greater. So why should I invest money into this? Which I think is not where the distinction lies? Really.


Brett Bartholomew  28:13  

Yeah, and I’d be interested to see what you think about this, one of my opinions, too, is like, I think there’s a lot of people in the field that don’t have skin in the game of they don’t want to pay for something, but they also don’t know what it made to create that or cultivate that. And I was as guilty as anybody. I used to look at certain resources. And I’d be like, Good lord, like, I can’t afford that. Like, I can’t do this. And then I remember the first time I learned what it took to do my book, or the online course. And my first online course Bought In and I was like, what, like, am I white, and then I had a whole new respect for that. 


Because what I found is like, it’s crazy to put like, what it takes to make this stuff a reality. Most people don’t know. And I always told myself, like I told my wife when I felt a little bit of resentment for the first time. I said, I wish people knew what goes into this stuff. I wish people understood that like, when somebody gets up on stage, whoever it is, Brian Man, Ron McKee for you, anybody, like any anybody listening to this, like people don’t understand the hours that go into that. And here’s a brief story. And I probably shouldn’t say this, but I’m a hypocrite. If I say we’re going to do an honest podcast, and we hold back. I had an experience recently, where somebody had asked me to give a presentation. 


And this was a big institution, a major team, people would recognize it. And I was first and foremost, I’m always honored by the opportunity. Like I always wake up and I’m like, I treat anything like it’s my first and my last. I don’t think I’m special. I think I bring value because I care enough but I’m grateful but I remember they had asked me if I could come speak I said I’d be happy to they said great, what your rate is? So I shot them some rates and it’s as flexible as it can be. And just for anybody listening to this understand whether it’s me or Tim or anybody, those rates aren’t things people come out with out of thin air. 


For me, it’s what it costs to be gone for a certain amount of time. It’s in flights, it’s it’s the hours upon hours of doing the research making the talk. It’s the preparation, it’s finding coverage for your athletes. It’s all these things like, I don’t have an armada for me creating, some money printing machine when I’m gone, and neither do any of these other presenters. So I remember I shot it to him. And I’ve always apologize, which is something that I’m actually trying to break this year I’m trying to quit apologizing for what I say this cost or that cost. I don’t feel like we should have to feel bad about saying this is what this cost. 


But long story short, the individual was like, Well, hey, we’re thinking you could give a talk that you’d already given before. And I said, Well, okay, sure. Like, which type would you like? And he goes, No, what I mean is, we think that should bring down the rate. And he said it just like that. And I said, Coach, listen, I’m sorry, if there’s a miscommunication, but here’s the thing, my dad’s got an aortic aneurysm, and if my dad gets open heart surgery, the cost of that open heart surgery doesn’t go down. Just because that heart that cardiothoracic surgeons done that surgery 300 times, right? 


Like, if Apple comes out with a new computer, or Samsung with a new phone, that phone doesn’t cost less each and every time somebody buys that, just because they’ve made that phone again. The amount of work that went into this is embedded, it’s etched, and then came like the guilt trip. It was like, well, we’ve had anybody listen to this, you got to be aware of this. And people were picking up on this. So like, it’s not the most professional way to go about things. But the person starts listing name after name, after name after name of person that came spoke for them for less money. And I said, Well listen, again I’m honored that you’ve thought of me, man and that’s great that they could do that. But you’re reaching out to me and asking me what my cost is. 


And so long story short, it didn’t go through. But I remember I had called some of the people that person had referenced had spoken there. And they said, I’ve never spoken there. I never spoke for that rate. And so it’s just this, it’s this weird thing, where not only is it a devaluation of what we do, and the expertise that goes in it, but this entitlement, and it’s heartbreaking for, it’s heartbreaking for me, because it’s an industry that’s supposed to be blue collar, respectful, leadership driven, all these things. But then people like, sometimes don’t behave in alignment with that. It’s kind of like meeting your hero for the first time. 


And they kind of let you down. You’re like, dang, man, like, I didn’t know, it was like this. I don’t know, it’s crazy. Have you ever had an experience like that? Have you ever had something where you kind of just got a glimpse for the first time? And you thought some of strength and conditioning is not what it’s brought up to be like, we’ve got to do some repair here, because we’re going down the wrong path. Have you ever felt like that?


Tim Caron  32:51  

Yeah, all time. I think my analogy, which I thought was like, Are you gonna ask Elton John to lower his cost of performing Rocket Man? Because he’s done it before? Because the truth is, the more you do it, the more refined and the better your presentation and the better that you have a grasp of your audience, and you’re paying for the delivery of the message. And the truth is that the more reps you get at it, actually, the more the value that is, but the other side, it’s like, from the perspective of looking at, we need I’ve worked in athletic departments for a good bit of time, and everyone has always invested into some sort of speaker to come in on an annual basis of, Hey, give us a message, go through this with our staff, let’s get something that we think is going to help as the general culture or like, just the whole, like, lifeblood of what we’re doing. 


And, the expectation is that this is something that’s going to help and we’re taking time out of our busy schedules as college coaches, or athletic trainers or whoever listening to a message come in. And I’m more of the inclination that I’d rather someone pay for more than pay for less and get a quality time period, because that’s going to have a reflection in the performance and the value of what that person working in the department is, if it’s the other way, and I have some assistants, and this is absolutely true, that are making honestly below minimum wage, because in terms of the hours they’re giving, and the compensation we’re getting them not to mention just the advent of these 10 month positions with no benefits in terms of college tuition, 


Or we’re gonna pay this poor quality message here, when we could have got someone else than a lot higher quality and bringing a lot more that’s actually going to help this department and make these young coaches who are commonly paying their way and going through this process for the greater good. Like you’re going to pay these guys money that we should it’d be invested back into our staff. Like, I never really looked at it in terms of like, this is an appropriate way to do this. And I’ve always like our money that you’re taking out of our hands is hopefully going to make us better. And if you invest it in the right people, it’s going to make us better. If it’s not, if it’s allocated towards the wrong things, I’m gonna have resentment and I’m gonna be frustrated with it. 


And I would come back and say, like, don’t invest your money in there. Let me go out and seek Brett and go out and find how I get learn from him on my own, and give me the money so I can go out find Brett, I can go out find Charles Pollock and then go on find Mike Boyle. Don’t make that decision for me if you don’t know how to make that decision for us. And the whole premise of it is frustrating. But to add to your point of like the question of, Hey, have you ever felt that way? 


Yeah, absolutely. But at the end of the day, it’s a business and no matter which way you want to cut it, and we can always say, all while we’re doing this, for the love of it, yeah. But eventually, we got to pay our bills. And eventually, we got to pay or support our families, and eventually, we’re gonna, hopefully, live the life that we want to live, because we’re the best in our industry. And I don’t think it’s a bad thing to say that we should be compensated, especially when providing a service, it’s really, really good. 


Brett Bartholomew  36:13  

No, no,that’s a great way to wrap that up. And I think that applies. I think the big myth or warning point here is that applies, in my opinion, to even people that are in the team setting are gainfully employed by somebody else. This isn’t a private sector team thing, and like those arguments, and that those delineations and divides, that stuff’s all old and goes away, it affects us all, because nobody’s under contract unless anybody out there who’s got lifetime contract or guaranteed money with a team, like it’s good advice to understand and seek out resources to drill, to create a wealth.


Talking about this, and this is kind of my next question for you is, I think what helped me is exposing myself to other fields and getting an idea of like, what it costs for them to do things. So I’d reach out to some friends that, maybe I’d just taken a new job, or we’re in a different field, like radically different, I’d be like, hey, what does it cost for you to do? Con Ed, what does it cost you when you go speak? Or this and they’d kind of tell me, and they’d be like, Well, how about you? And I’d tell him, I’d be like, man, we have situations where, you can basically be called a sellout if you don’t go speak for 200 bucks. And he’s like, what, like, What are you talking about? 


How Does anybody sustain that? And I’m like, it’s interesting, man, it’s just kind of been a friendship slap on the hand kind of thing, for a long time. And, it’s probably a lack of exposure to like, I remember once I started learning somebody, I went and spoke and they’re like, Hey, thanks for being so fair for your with your rate. And I go, Yeah, no problem. What do you, if you don’t mind me asking what do you usually spend a year? And they’re like, Well, we had somebody come out last year that charge $80,000. And I said, What? And you could afford that. And they’re like, well, the university yada yada, yada. And I’m like, huh, 


So people get mad at me for saying it’s X amount based on an hourly breakdown. And like, there’s organizations out there paying 80k. And it would surprise some people, some of these TED Talk, people are charging 40 60. And what good on them, like somebody wants to do Oh, that’s ridiculous. And so, and I probably would have said that at one point, too. But what I’m saying is, that was, All right, if they can raise the ceiling, but I think it’s on us, strength coaches, we just kind of like, to debate around the same topics. 


And it’s almost a little bit of, it’s incestuous to a degree, not seeking out new resources, not pushing our limits on the education front, not being willing to invest, like you said, is kind of keeping us from growing. And I think that’s why we got on the phone. We both agreed that. In your opinion, what are some things or resources people should be seeking out that can kind of like, expand their perspective, their knowledge of this stuff? If somebody’s listening to us right now, and they think we are just batshit crazy talking about this? What should they be seeking out? Or what are they going to be destined to learn the hard way if they don’t 


Tim Caron  39:00  

Put your ass on the line? I have a lot of people will like, reach out to me, like, oh, man, I’m still working at this college. But I kind of want to break off and do some online stuff for this. Like, you won’t be successful at it. And, oh, well, because the truth is, you don’t need it. Your survival is contingent upon it. So I would say like in terms of, if you really want to see what the value of this is, and how important it is, I have a great metric or like measuring stick of what your time is actually worth, make it your livelihood, where in college or pro or whatever it is like your fixed salary. So if you work 10 hours or four hours, it’s the same. 


And you’d have really no like measuring stick of what you do. So you just contributed 10 hours and your second hour, whatever, I’ll just stay here and I’ll grind it out and I’ll do that out. But as opposed to going in there and saying, I’m leaving this job. I’m going to make my personal services be the The way I make a living, this the only really way that you’re really gonna have appreciation for what it actually is the value of it. And you and me, guys before us, who have really put themselves in a very commercial city situation, because they thought, hey, I’m providing a really good service, I’m really good at what I do, I think I can make monetize this. And then having that like, weird, awkward transition of well, what is it actual value? And then how do I ask somebody for money for my services, when it’s been just


Brett Bartholomew  40:30  

Which is so painful


Tim Caron  40:32  

It’s a hard transition, it still is, it’s still difficult, I still get this twinge of like, oh, this is awkward for me. But, as you start to really evaluate yourself, and you think, Alright, an anchor sometimes too battle it yourself and your loved ones actually, make you think twice about it. And like, just keeping humble, but also to give you perspective of like, what you actually are worth, the truth is, if you’re really good at what you do, and you ask a wage that’s reflective of that, and people who don’t feel comfortable about it, they’re not worth your time anyway. 


And from the perspective of like, the people I want to associate with, who take value in what I’m doing, are the people that put value in compensating us and giving us what we deserve. And the countless years of work and the countless books and the countless certifications, the yadda, yadda, yadda, everyone else is this, this has garnered me this specific wage and my expectations that if you want my time, you’re gonna have to pay that. And the people that don’t want to do that, I don’t know if they ever really won’t get it until they put themselves in the shoes or the circumstances.


Brett Bartholomew  41:48  

And so powerful for you to say that because I think what I found too is if I had this talk with, let’s say, Kellie Surat or Eric Cressey, or anybody listening to this that owns their own facility, or is out on their own, or like you, I mean you now obviously, but like it, there’s so many people that want to be like, Oh, these are two private sector guy is talking about why we should pay them, there is that cynic out there, which is crazy to me, but you guys are, again, are listening to a guy that’s one of the most respected in our field that’s worked at the zenith of collegiate strength and conditioning that’s had this paradigm shift. 


And you’re also like, I talked about it a lot. I was like a curmudgeon at 21. Like, whenever I was a grad assist, and 22 23 where like, we sat down every morning and we’d look at like all these gurus, selling this and then we’d be like, what, you know what a clown, like any real strength coach doesn’t do that. And like, Sure, there are some stuff that is just absolute shit. And there are people that are going to try to take advantage of you. But I remember like, it is so true when you decide like you’re gonna put your butt on the line. And then you have to think, Alright, what is my time worth? What is it worth and I challenge anybody to listen to this podcast that’s listening right now. 


Figure out because there’s a unique calculators online that will help you do this and take in a variety of things, figure out what your time’s worth. Now, one is strength coaches know that you’re never going to make what your time is really worth. And that’s fine, right? We understand that. But if you have no idea what your time is worth, if you are flying routinely across the country, you’re doing this or doing that, and you’re not calculating out the opportunity cost, because that’s really what it is. It’s not about the money. All this stuff is opportunity costs. And if you don’t know what you’re worth, and you’re not making a certain amount of money, the opportunities for you to help a wider demographic are gone. They’re gone. 


And that was like me kind of getting rid of this shame when I was building Bought In it on is like, one I remember what I paid to get that done, but two like, I looked at it, I’m like, why am I doing this? What’s the point of this first? Well, one, I wanted people to know more about the science behind the art of coaching stuff I wish I would have known I think it filled the gap. But two I had basically calculated that I had spent almost two days worth of time, within a couple months answering social media messages of pretty much the same thing again and again and again. Or anytime I spoke at a conference, I was getting the same things again and again and again. And I went to bed at night, Tim being like I’m helping people I’m doing the strength coach, servant thing. 


And then I’m like, eff that, like, I’m not scaling any impact, like me, yeah, I might help that one person and this and that’s super powerful. And I’ll always do that. But, I’m also not helping a lot of people. I’m not helping people that couldn’t come to this event. I’m not helping people that don’t know about anything that I put out there. And so doing that, like that helped me get rid of the shame. Like it’s sitting here looking at it, like, Oh, this is why people put this kind of stuff together, at least the ones that are doing it, right. They’re trying to scale it and guess what, that can’t be done without money. 


And so I think that’s where people are even looking at this wrong. We’re talking about money, but the commodity here is time and opportunity cost and your ability to serve a wider demographic you open another Allegiant because you’re making more money. Guess what, you’re helping more people. Get fired up, not if Tim charges you for his time, get fired up if he charges you for his time, and then doesn’t give you anything useful. But there is a difference between value and all that. So I had, it’s a rant, but I’m just trying to help people understand that certain people won’t listen to this message yet. But it’s coming if you want to help people, and you’re about really what you say you’re about, you find a way. And you need to start by understanding what your time is worth and what it takes to expand a helpful message. 


Tim Caron  45:30  

And another big part of it, for me personally was this idea of what is our actual business, our businesses working with paying members, there are actual businesses that focus on training coaches, and developing coaches. And I’m a huge investor in that personally, but it’s not my primary business. So when a coach or someone asked for my time relative to my primary business of, training people directly, who pay us for our time, that’s pulling us away from what our livelihood is. And I look at a lot of the coach training centric, like business models, which there’s amazing ones out there, like yourself, and other ones that obviously you and I both personally invested into, which is that their sole focus, where it’s like, even for myself, which I’m not like, impervious to the idea that we’re gonna have an influence on other coaches, and we’re trying to leverage that. 


So we can get new coaches into our system and train them and become part of our staff and help our business grow. Because that’s a huge, that’s the lifeblood of what we’re really doing. But it’s not our primary business. It’s not like I’m going, Okay, how do I get a plan out there, so I can make money off of coaches investing into me, so they come better, as well as that. So it’s even more of this like conflict of like, wow, okay, like, I definitely want to help. And I definitely want to get people in here. So we can get better coaches and train them up. But we also need to recognize the fact that my livelihood is turned off for training individuals. And if you want to learn how I train those individuals, that’s going to be direct conflict at the time, I’m pointing towards those people, or at least, doing my own research and doing my own investigation, how to do that better. 


And if you’re pulling me away from that, that’s this much value, and you need to understand that’s gonna come at a cost. And not just expecting that. And the crazy part is like getting asked like, Hey, can you give me insights on how you run your business? Because I’m thinking about running my business? Do you realize now you’re telling me right away, you’re actually going to be a competitor. And this isn’t like college trade conditioning, where we’re like, oh, well, this is for the good of the industry. 


And, hey, we’ll share each other’s trade secrets. Because really, the truth be told, there’s not much differences from one program to the next. Other than maybe logistics, like, this is now like, you’re gonna open up across the street from me. Like, my job is to put you out of business. Like, that’s my job. Now, it’s to be the number one in my area. So no one else can survive myself, because that’s commerce. That’s capitalism. That’s going John D. Rockefeller, new and completely making everything monopolized through my system training. I don’t want you to be successful. If you’re gonna open up next door to me, we’re doing the same business. Like that’s 


Brett Bartholomew  48:20  

Yeah, I mean, there’s a whole mentorship, mentorship thing in itself. The other day, they said, hey, I’d like to come out and figure out how you, train athletes, your thoughts on coach development, and how you run your business? What’s the cost associated with that? And it’s like, you always kind of wonder, well, what’s the goal? Let’s not talk about cause for a second, what’s the goal? And what’s the expectation? And I think that’s another thing that coaches lack is like, they don’t really know what they want out of it, they reach out and oftentimes, is it a connection? Are you really wanting tactical information? 


And more importantly, do you go into a situation and say, What are you giving? Are you going in there and saying, Hey, I don’t expect to pay, I’m not going to give anything else. But give me what you got. And I think Coach Boyle talked about this on one of his podcast episodes recently. But he said, I think some of that just comes from people not really understanding how inconsiderate they come across when they have those expectations. And that kind of goes back to self awareness. Like, there’s just this inherent lack of self awareness of like, what am I asking for? What’s the goal? Yeah, but more importantly, like, what are you giving? 


What are you giving to anybody that reaches out for that? Yeah, it’s really interesting, man, and how we make people more self aware. I loved your answer earlier on, because everybody wants to say, What books should I read? What should I do? And you go, no, no, no, put your ass on the line, because that speaks to what they talked about, the Romans when they built bridges, they had to, like the Roman bridge builders had to stay at least I think it was like a week under a bridge with their family. And it’s something that I bring up again and again and again on this podcast, because it’s like, if you have trust in the structure you build then you better put skin in the game and see if it’s going to fall and crumble around you. But it’s got to be giving base, it’s got to be getting base, especially if they’re asking you. Tim, do you get that a lot? Do you get people saying, hey, teach me how to open up my own gym and all this? 


Tim Caron  50:09  

Yeah, actually quite a bit, let’s say once a week at least, 


Brett Bartholomew  50:13  



Tim Caron  50:14  

Because it’s humbling to from the– it’s flattering, I should say. It means that you show that you’ve shown some aptitude to do this, or at least we’re given the appearance of doing it. But without any, like, you have no idea for a profitable business or not, like, it’s just the the appearance through a portray through social media is what Garner’s that like interest of like, oh, man that looks appealing, but the truth is, it’s like in your mind, you’re like, do you really want to do this? And is this really worth my time to explain this to you with your just kind of like, casual thought that crossed your mind? And like, Oh, that looks like a really cool way to make a living.


Let me see if that would be something I’d be interested in doing by asking you a very, like, generic and open ended question of like, Hey, how’d you open your business? Like, oh, my God, I don’t even know where to start. And that question, and the time it would take me actually truly explain this is so long that I don’t even know if it’d be dude in service to say other than, like, you don’t want to do this. Like, it’s a difficult situation to like, kind of like cross well, it’s not to be rude or disrespectful. But you also don’t want to say like, you don’t want to be absolutely like lie to the person and like, just humor. 


Brett Bartholomew  51:27  

And I don’t think I think when our field gets to where we want it to be, because I think s&c is in this kind of weird adolescent phase right now where it’s trying to decide what it wants to be. I think when it kind of fully grows and matures, we won’t have to worry about the fact that we already talked about the training, side, we talked about the art of coaching a little bit more now, thankfully. But we still don’t want to talk about the business of coaching. And I hope when we fully mature, it’s not something that we have to walk on eggshells about and worry like, are we upsetting people when we talk about the costs involved? To use your term does it come off as disrespectful when you’re trying to challenge somebody or ask them to invest in something? 


These aren’t things, I don’t go into my dentist’s office and negotiate prices, I don’t go into a lawyer and say, Hey, I’d like free advice, what you’re going to charge me you’re a sellout. It doesn’t look good on our field, when we’re so anxious and ambivalent around talking about these things, when you would go into any other business. And it would be it would be nothing. That’s a conversation if you went down to a Jimmy John’s and you said, hey, I’m a local student, I’m trying to learn more about economics and the numbers of what it takes to run a business. And assuming you get the store owner, and he’s got some time he pulled out his computer and look at that, right? 


And like if we did that, if I said, Hey, Coach, so and so I’d like to know what you charge for this and that, it’s like, Whoa, you’re on the next minute, we’re on the phone telling somebody did you know so and so charges this, it’s like, dude, go do something better with your time. Like, that’s just business. It’s definitely fascinating. So is that the advice you give to a lot of your friends and truly, like when they kind of inquire as to how this movie is gone for you like, hey, what do you think? Like, do you think they kind of expected you to go out there and fall on your ass and kind of run back to the team setting crying? Or what? What do you think the expectation was there?


Tim Caron  53:23  

I mean it’s, I guess, it’s really difficult to really know people’s expectations. One. Personally, I know like, a struck a nerve with a lot of people of like, the sentiment, a lot of like, I guess people who really think a lot about what we’re doing and how we’re doing it. Like, the idea of like, is this a really the best possible like environment for me to make a living, that really struck a nerve and a lot of ways not everybody, which is fair. And I’ve had a lot of like, really high level people call me who’ve, just, hey, you definitely hit a chord, something’s definitely thought process of, you can leave on your own terms, you can do this, how you want to do it, and then you can create a thing that you can actually make money off of that was something that happens a lot, 


But in terms of like, no matter which, every day battle back and forth between like, 10 years plus of my life was with college and conditioning, and it’s a huge part of me. And it’s a huge part of just the way I operate. And it’s a huge part of my personal brand. And we’re leveraging here really, really hard. And that’s the big part of the process. But, the more and more like you come away from it’s like leaving a relationship at first it’s like you only know that relationship and all your daily rituals and things that you’re in that relationship are tied to it and then as you start to grow outside of it and define yourself and who you are as a person away from that, like the less and less you think about it 


But from the perspective of like, what people’s expectations for me on this was, it was definitely like, well, he’s an honest because he left the head strength conditioning coach position. So it was like no turning back on that. But I also explained to you, like, if you’re gonna do it, you can’t do it half assed and, you can’t be as successful as you could be in either endeavor. If you’re trying to run a business, while being a college education coach, like, you’re probably not gonna be a very big contribution coach, or you’re not really having that much expectations for the business and you’re expecting it to fail, which now it’s like, I’m on base case, just pulled out all the stops. 


And this is my only option, my backs against the wall, and I have to make this work. And I have to just understand that the reality is, if this fails, like, I’m gonna have to really reconcile with the idea that I’m gonna have to start over and pull another profession or really make this work and that pressure. Yeah, that pressure that aspect of reality of this or nothing. I think that puts me this, you have a situation where people like, okay, that guy is probably going to have success, I would expect.


Brett Bartholomew  56:12  

But how about how great it had been, though, for growth, man, I mean, I look at, I look at even the two years I’ve been independent, and it was, it’s been harrowing, frustrating, rewarding, awesome, miserable, enlightening. It’s been this, like, complex, kind of, but like, I look back on what I learned, because I really tried to do some self reflection. I’m like, Holy shit, I never would have learned this if I just kind of quote unquote, stayed in my lane, and like that. Granted, that’s not me saying it’s for everybody. And that’s not me glorifying anything. Like I said, I have a heavy bag in my garage for a reason. And it’s not just because I box competitively for a long time. It’s because there were days where like, I had to go out there and like, I just wailed on it. But like, how much have you grown because of this and more importantly, or even just as important, I’d have to imagine it’s made you a far better code, from the relatability standpoint, the introspection, the strategy, and everything like that, like, whatever you write, and that assumption.


Tim Caron  57:14  

Yeah, the realization that failure is an option is something that like, scares the crap out of you, and just pushing further into this, I’m going to skip protect myself. And I’m gonna go into cocoon, and never, like, accept any really, really challenging situations, or it excites you, it puts you in this, like whole nother stratosphere. And, the first like, setup of like, trying to sell what you’re doing someone and saying, Hey, here’s what it costs like, that anxiety, that fear, like, you never have to experience that in a private set, or in a public setting in college, like you just don’t


You get your recruit, they come in, and they come to you and you develop them. And over the course of four years, hopefully, that they’re better off than when they come and there’s really no pressure could you can call this go up the chain saying, Well, it’s really the responsibility of the head coach, or the administration doesn’t really like us. And we’re here, it’s like, if they like what you’re doing, they’ll pay you for it. And there’s nothing more real than that. And, going home every night and really like going back and forth and saying, like, wow, now really, my job is objectively evaluated as opposed to kind of subjective opinion. 


Like, that’s the most incredible reality and that’s made me like, you’re right, as a coach and as a person. And as a manager, as a husband, whatever. Like the thing I kind of classified as that much more intensified, and I got to be 100% on a level that I’ve never really thought of before in terms of college because I got not routine, but I got good at it. And I got good at the cycle and the lifestyle and just the day to day at it. And I knew how to manage coaches and I knew how to manage athletes and I knew how to manage athletic trainers. And I knew how to just do my job really effectively without much conscious thought where I got flipped upside down here where everything’s profound, everything’s in detail, everything’s in such a level of, well, it could go this way go that way where you never really have to consciously think that much when you do something for that long now it’s just starting over. It’s like being an infant and learning to walk again.


Brett Bartholomew  59:26  

Yeah, that’s a really great analogy. It’s you know, and it’s despite how freaky it can be there’s never been a better time in my opinion to be a strength coach because you have all these old lines being drawn or kind of whittling away it used to be huge divides between team and private setting and this and then what you know people that own facilities it was like an elite few and if they did it, is usually kind of these combine mechanistic facilities where it was like a not a whole lot of real like true from the root to the fruit coaching took place and now that’s changed. Now coaches have so many more opportunities, they just gotta be willing to take the step


I will say this to anybody listening. And this is kind of firsthand too. But like anybody listening that’s just getting started or in the mix of their journey, you need to go intern and volunteer or find jobs like the one, you know, like ones that Tim has to learn from and do that, because this is why I say this. There’s a lot of coaches that sometimes I think, only get into the private sector, if it’s a last resort. And they’re like, well, I’ll stay here until a big shiny team job opens up, and then I’ll jump to that, you know, and then I’ll jump to that. And you’re really shortchanging yourself if you take that approach. Because being able to learn from somebody like Tim, who’s been on the team side, who’s now dealing with business, who’s now dealing with other things like that is going to help you no matter where you go. 


But commit do not go in Job hop. And it’s one of the thing that terrifies me and like I’m not going to open up a facility anytime in the near future, at least I don’t, I don’t I don’t believe I am. But one of the things when people ask why I go, it’s simple man, I go, there are not enough coaches that like want to get involved with the business side, the coaching side and the mentoring side. And for me to kind of put my life savings into something like I need to know that there’s coaches invested in that, 


That if I’m gone in China speaking, they’re locked in, they’re not on the floor doing a two and a half hour workout, when people are coming to try to check in. They’re not sitting there on their phone worried about what they’re going to post on Instagram today that build their own brand. It’s just hard to find committed people and so anybody looking to really separate themselves in their skill set, you need to get a hold of guys like Tim, and go learn from them now and Tim, as we wrap up, man, how can people get a hold of you what’s the best way to reach out and get in touch?


Tim Caron  1:01:35  

So, that’s a really good setup. Start point, we have our Instagram Allegiate gym, which try to filter as many people to that as possible, because the, it gives a clearer picture of what we do. Just you can follow my own personal Instagram, which is fine, but I think if you really want to get a good view, and like if this is something that looks appealing, or at least looks like something you might be entertaining, have thought of, like what you were trying to allude to of, I don’t know necessarily what path I want to go but I want to learn a lot you know, that would be like the go to source to see that and that and then yeah, just from their email us or, or myself or my partners and and let’s see if we can get you guys somewhere in the system.


Brett Bartholomew  1:02:29  

Guys I’ll make sure and put all this information and his email and everything in the show notes so you can easily access it. Listen to him. I know if the sound behind you or any indicator, the door is open and closed, man like you guys are swamped. And I don’t want to take any more of your time. Thank you for being real, you know, thank you for coming on here and not like putting on a front about you know, especially something that’s a really uncomfortable topic for a lot of people. I know it worked for me, but it’s nice that people are actually thinking about from a good point of view, right? Like, just like we got to drop your anxiety and ambivalence about this stuff. We’ve got to drop this entitlement and there’s not many out there that are going to tell it in a more real


Tim Caron  1:03:08  

it’s really cool. This is a cool thing 


Brett Bartholomew  1:03:10  

Alright man, be good

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